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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: All Souls' Day
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
AS an Old-Catholic and like many Anglicans, I do not believe in the doctrine of the purgatory.
But I strongly believe in the prayers for the departed and my church observes the Liturgical Celebration of All Souls,again just like many Anglicans.
The Eastern-Orhodox church prays for the departed ,but rejects the Purgatory.
Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls.Purgatory is not the right term.
I couldn't agree more! (This is magnificently illustrated in Newman's Dream of Gerontius.)
My bewilderment is with the number of Anglicans who essentially believe "oh, (s)he's in Heaven with Jesus now", but will still do an All Souls celebration.
Sounds like a case of their practice is better than their theology to me!
As for the white on All Souls' Day, I really do not get it. Even if one uses white for funerals, which I would discourage because it seems to deny the reality of death in our culture, All Souls' is one time when you can tell the truth, as it were.
PD
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Antiphon
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# 14779
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Posted
Yes, the white vestments were indeed used in a Roman Catholic church.
I think that I would agree that violet would have been more suitable and an appropriate preface for the dead used. Indeed, I think that the latest edition of the Roman Missal actually orders this, but I will have to check up on the rubrics.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
no blessing of the water at the offertory
Oh dear. Will the chalice be contaminated or something?
The water is still blessed, if you consider 'O God, who in wonder and honour...' a blessing, but the sign of the cross is not made.
PD
For what reason is the sign of the cross omitted?
(BTW, since Vatican 2, the sign has always been omitted and the prayer isn't specifically one of blessing, which is why we use the same water for lavabo.)
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
no blessing of the water at the offertory
Oh dear. Will the chalice be contaminated or something?
The water is still blessed, if you consider 'O God, who in wonder and honour...' a blessing, but the sign of the cross is not made.
PD
For what reason is the sign of the cross omitted?
(BTW, since Vatican 2, the sign has always been omitted and the prayer isn't specifically one of blessing, which is why we use the same water for lavabo.)
All blessings (incense, water, deacon, general, etc.) are omitted at a requiem.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
AS an Old-Catholic and like many Anglicans, I do not believe in the doctrine of the purgatory.
But I strongly believe in the prayers for the departed and my church observes the Liturgical Celebration of All Souls,again just like many Anglicans.
The Eastern-Orhodox church prays for the departed ,but rejects the Purgatory.
Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls.Purgatory is not the right term.
Many Anglican churches observe All Souls by having sung Requiems e.g.: St.Paul's cathedral and Westminster Abbey.
Mozart's Requiem Mass was sung at St.Paul's yesterday,with the use of incense and the prayers for the departed.
Like TT, I wonder if it is simply the term purgatory that you do not like. The Cleansing of the Souls sounds a lot like purgatory to me.
But then again, so did the Intermediate State when I was an Anglican. It seemed to allow Anglicans to susbscribe to Catholic theology without using "Romish" terms. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw the St. Augustine Prayer Book--a marvel published by the Order of the Holy Cross in TEC--drop the pretense and use the word purgatory in their book. After all, the texts for Masses for the Dead in the Anglican/American/English Missals were all verbatim translations from the Roman Missal, where the existence of such a state is made quite clear.
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
I recall an All Souls Day Mass several years ago where the priest wore white, but during the homily he apologized and said that he would have worn black if those vestments had not been thrown out. I wanted to ask why not violet, but had to hurry back to work.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Evening Sung Eucharist (plus a said service earlier in the day). Priest-in-Charge plus assistant priest both in black vestments (referred to as 'The Men in Black' by the choir), names of the deceased read out.
We have a separate, more informal service of the word on Sunday evening, with names read out and the opportunity to light candles in memory of loved ones.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
At the mass for All Souls Day in my local RC church the priest wore white vestments rather then violet in order to better symbolise the resurrection of the dead and also used an Easter preface for the eucharistic prayer rather than a preface for the dead.
What do other contributors think of this? I have an open mind myself at the moment.
White is what I'm used to for this day, and is the first option listed in my ordo (followed by Violet and then Black). The preface should be one of the many for the Dead (the Missal makes this clear). These prefaces are full of the hope of resurrection. Consider this beautiful paragraph from Preface I for the Dead:
quote:
In [Christ] the hope of blessed resurrection has dawned,
that those saddened by the certainty of dying
might be consoled by the promise of immortality to come.
Indeed for your faithful, Lord,
life is changed not ended,
and, when this earthly dwelling turns to dust,
an eternal dwelling is made ready for them in heaven.
Of course, the Easter prefaces are beautiful too, but have the wrong emphasis for this feast, I think.
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls. Purgatory is not the right term.
The word "Purgatory" is derived from a Latin word for "cleansing" and shares roots with the English word "purge". So ssentially, the word "Purgatory" signifies "place of cleansing".
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Maybe the soul can be cleansed in Heaven.
Unfortunately (or fortunately?) nothing unclean can enter Heaven. See Revelation 21:27. ("Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.").
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I've always presumed that it's because requiems are supposed to have a more austere character than "normal" liturgies. So some of the niceties are omitted.
That said, I generally find it's misleading to ask why things are done (or not done) - IME this usually results in a spiritualised ex post facto explanation which actually doesn't tell you much. The more interesting question is "what is the origin/history of this custom?"
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Patronal Festival Eucharist for All Saints Sunday this morning, then into white ( ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) ) for our All Souls Eucharist at 4pm. We invite families whose funerals we've taken during the year, and several people do come every year. This service has our second best attendance after the Midnight Mass of Christmas, so we must be doing something right!
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
How is the patronal festival Eucharist not itself white?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
How is the patronal festival Eucharist not itself white?
Presumably the earlier service was gold, which is appropriate for a principal feast but inappropriate for a requiem...
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
That would make sense.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Ashworth
Shipmate
# 12645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
All Saints' Day - 730pm Mass (with hymns and incense) celebrating the Church Triumphant. Best white vestments. I don't expect we'll get more than 10 in the congo, as a number of those who would normally attend are away (it's half-term week).
All Souls' Day - 930am Franciscan Morning Prayer
Saturday 3rd - 930am All Souls' Mass (with hymns and incense) - names of parishioners, families, friends etc. read out and prayed for. Black chasuble (I expect).
We are transferring All Souls to our usual Saturday morning slot, coz we know we'll get a congregation.......
Ian J.
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Edgeman
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# 12867
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Posted
We had a sung tridentine mass as 7PM. Not many people, probably no more than 60 came. Black vestments, unbleached candles, and a catafalque. The vestments, candles, and catafalque were present at all the All Souls Day masses, and it's the parish custom to leave the catafalque up for the nine days after all souls day.
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Ashworth
Shipmate
# 12645
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Posted
Sorry to Bishops Finger about my above post!
The forum went down for maintenance whilst I was posting and I didn't get to write my bit following the quote!
We did something similar regarding celebrating All Soul's with a Saturday morning Mass. We also would not get a congregation on a Friday evening.
On the Saturday morning we got about 15 people which is very good for us.
We are finding 10am on Saturday mornings quite a popular time for a Mass. We already have a monthly Walsingham Cell Mass on a Saturday morning and if a major Saints Day falls on a Saturday we do the same. We do seem to be building up a regular Saturday morning congregation and it is worth thinking about making it weekly if our interregnum ever comes to an end! A dozen people on a Saturday morning is better than the 3 or 4 we would get at an evening Mass.
[ 04. November 2012, 22:35: Message edited by: Ashworth ]
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Incensed
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# 2670
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Posted
What about the Dies Irae - is it essential at a High Mass of Requiem?
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Incensed:
What about the Dies Irae - is it essential at a High Mass of Requiem?
Yup. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Incensed:
What about the Dies Irae - is it essential at a High Mass of Requiem?
According to "The Big Red Book" (American Missal) it is required for most requiems, and definitely required on the day of death, the day of burial and for the High Mass of Requiem. However, the 'Little Red Book' (Ritual Notes 11 with changes to Dec. 1965) modifies that to the first, or High Mass on All Souls' Day and makes it optional at almost all other requiems. It is one of those things which after 18 years in Holy Orders, and 12 as a PP I still have to look up! Mind you, the fact that I was trained on one set of rules, then worked by another for ten years proably did not help.
PD
[ 05. November 2012, 00:05: Message edited by: PD ]
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
ISTM that the Dies Irae is more appropriate to the masses for Commemoration of All Faithful Departed, as an acknowledgement of our existential situation, than it is to a requiem celebrated for an individual Christian soul, especially in the context of a funerary mass.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
My practice would tend to agree with that comment. I tend to use the Dies Irae on All Souls' Day and at our quarterly requiems, but not at funeral Masses
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
I referred above to our All Souls' Day list of the departed. I was surprised that the celebrant, rather than reading the list following the offertory action with 'I bid your prayers for …' or some such included the list during the Gregorian(Coverdale) canon at 'Remember, Lord, also the souls …'
Made sense, really, I just had never experienced it that way. Is this customary other places?
Just curious.
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
I wonder how churches whose names are All Souls' work their feast of title. All Souls' Day seems to singularly not lend itself to something like that.
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I don't suppose All Souls, Langham Place, London bothers.
However the 1950s Ritual Notes states "Churches named All Souls ... are deprived of a feast of title, as All Souls Day excludes all festal observances whatsoever".
I do know there's an RC parish in Kensal Town dedicated to the Holy Souls, but I'm not sure RC parishes bother much with feasts of title.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
By chance there is an article in this month's CATHOLIC LIFE about that very church.It is dedicated to 'Our Lady of the Holy Souls'.
Apparently there are in the English speaking world only two other churches with this dedication - one in Nassau,Bahamas and one in Little Rock,Arkansas.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd rather than it went back to Advent where it came from.
I can see where you are coming from with that comment, but with the embarrassment of riches we have for Advent it would still be rarely heard.
PD
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
By chance there is an article in this month's CATHOLIC LIFE about that very church.It is dedicated to 'Our Lady of the Holy Souls'.
Apparently there are in the English speaking world only two other churches with this dedication - one in Nassau,Bahamas and one in Little Rock,Arkansas.
There is (or was?) a TEC parish in the diocese of Chicago, originally dedicated as 'All Souls'. A new incumbent, wanting a proper feast of title, asked the bp for permission to rename the place -- are you ready? -- as 'Our Lady, Queen of All Souls.' Permission was granted. (The dio was a bit more up-the-candle in those days, I suspect.) Dunno if the dedication (or even the parish) still exists.
I thought I had posted this before, but can't find it, so pardon the duplication?
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
No sign of it on the diocesan website, georgiaboy. There's an All Souls Anglican church out in Wheaton, but I doubt that has any connection.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
If a parish was dedicated to Our Lady, Queen of All Souls, what day would be the patronal festival?
Not that I think it's a bad idea. We can't have too much of Mary, to my mind.
The RC church in Kensal Town was in a very grubby and neglected bit of Greater London, by the way, in the armpit of Ladbroke Grove and the Harrow Road. (Ladbroke Grove undergoes more social extremes than any other street I know in London.) I don't suppose it has gone up market in the last thirty years since I knew it.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
No sign of it on the diocesan website, georgiaboy. There's an All Souls Anglican church out in Wheaton, but I doubt that has any connection.
That church was started as a Continuing Church parish less than a decade ago, and has skirted between several jurisdictions, and now is apparently part of the reconstituted Diocese of Qunicy. It was never part of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago.
I do see that there is an RC parish of Our Lady of Souls in the Archdiocese of Newark, New Jersey.
[ 10. November 2012, 19:05: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Ceremoniar, the parish to which I referred did its name change sometime before 1965, so it's not the same one. Any connection? I dunno.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Ceremoniar, the parish to which I referred did its name change sometime before 1965, so it's not the same one. Any connection? I dunno.
I was referring to the parish in Wheaton. Where specifically is the one that you discussed located?
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
As I remember it was Grayslake, but not sure. It was up that way, however.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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