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Source: (consider it) Thread: Christingle, excited children and naked flames.
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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On an average Sunday, we are two-thirds empty. However we do have a couple of "standing room only" services each year, such as on Remembrance Sunday.

Last year we had more people than ever before at our Christingle service. We are risk-assessing this year's service, assuming similar numbers, and have concluded that actually lighting the individual Christingles in a packed church might be too risky. Instead we will have one lit at the front, and people will be asked to take theirs home and light them there.

What do other churches do?

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Are there any reported instances of conflagrations caused by Christingle candles? If not, then your risk assessment may be unnecessarily pessimistic.

Just light the things.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cottontail

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A previous church I worked in was likewise packed for its Christingle service, and organised it thusly:

All the children were given an unlit Christingle orange when they came in. About two thirds of the way through the service, the children - about 70 of them - came out of the pews and stood all round the edges of the church (our pew arrangement allowed us to do this). If the child was under a certain age (say about 10), a parent or other adult was invited to come out with them.

The candles were then lit by volunteer adults going round with a gas lighter (so no passing the flame). The lights were dimmed, and everybody sang "Silent Night". Then the lights were brought back up again, the children blew out the candles, and all returned to their seats.

It seemed about as safe as we could make it. At least candles were not being lit in the crowded space of the pews, and an adult with each child answers some of the potential dangers.

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Cottontail, that sounds ideal, but virtually everyone at the Christingle is a child under 10, an accompanying parent, or one of the regular congregation in some sort of organising capacity. I suspect we would end up with more people shuffling out to stand with the Christingles than remained in the pews.

Karl,
quote:
Just light the things.
Pretty much my view. I have seen a hymn sheet catch fire, which created a bit of a frisson in the pew, but it was put out very quickly - I think it was dropped and stamped on. No toddlers were involved, though. If risk-assessing the Christingles wasn't bad enough, we also risk-assessed the possibility of smiting people with e-coli via the mince-pies.

[brick wall]

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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Risk assessments are part of my daily work. A risk assessment consists of two basic parts: the likelihood of something happening, and the seriousness of the consequences if it does.

If you're risk-assessing something that has already been happening for some time, then you're in the fortunate position of being able to ask, "What has happened before?" It gives you an excellent basis for assessing likelihood.

Or, as I said to our fire officer when we were discussing the risks of having altar candles in the hospital chapel at Sunday services - "Tell me, how many burning churches do you drive past on your way to work on a Monday morning?" He saw the point.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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NorthEastQuine - we do a similar thing to Cottontail, children in front, adults behind, ring around the church - adult helpers going round and lighting the candles (we use tapers). A good 100 Christingles are made.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Adeodatus,
quote:
If you're risk-assessing something that has already been happening for some time, then you're in the fortunate position of being able to ask, "What has happened before?" It gives you an excellent basis for assessing likelihood.
We've been doing a Christingle service for some years now, but it's been growing in popularity; last year was our largest. Our Christmas services seem to be polarising amongst those who don't usually go to church; young families with under-8s go to Christingle, families with over-8s go to Carols by Candlelight, teens and childless young go to the Watchnight.

We really don't know what numbers to expect this year. I think last year we made 120 Christingles, though we had some left over at the end.

It could be that last year was a blip, or it could be that it was part of an increasing trend.

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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I think if I were risk assessing a Christingle service, I'd want to break it down into a few more definable "events". Obviously the fire risks are only going to apply when the Christingles are lit. But even then, what are the fire risks? There's obviously a risk that someone will get burned. But are we talking injury, or fatality? Or multiple fatalities? Then there's the risk of damage to property - personal property such as clothing, and damage to the church building. And don't neglect the risk of distress and anxiety if a fire should break out. Finally, any of these could give rise to a risk of litigation.

But the point of analysing risk like this isn't to scare you into not doing it: it's to give you the information you need to go on and manage the risk. And the most obvious things you need when there's a fire risk are (a) a good evacuation plan and (b) people who are trained in fire safety, who can tackle a minor incident, and who can be trusted not to panic.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Last night's risk-assessment included a worst case scenario of a 5 year old girl with long hair, wearing an inflamable nylony jacket going up in flames; panicking parents attempting to scoop up and run with flailing toddlers, someone tripping and being trampled underfoot, with more people then tripping over them, eyes being poked out with cocktail sticks in the ensuing melee, and bodies piling up in the vestibule.

I kid you not. [brick wall]

And that was still better than the mince-pie / e-coli risk assessment, where the worst-case scenario involved carts rumbling through our village, and cries of "Bring Out Your Dead."

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
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From my point of view, the risk area would be evacuating the church. We do the air-hostess style "the fire exits are here, and here" thing at the start, but if there was a problem, I could see a certain amount of confusion; especially if parents were trying to get hold of free-range toddlers prior to leaving the building.

But in terms of fire, I really can't envisage more than a nasty burn, or a badly scorched jacket.

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
... bodies piling up in the vestibule.

See, there's your problem. Those bodies are blocking a fire exit.

Seriously, it's good to run a worst-case scenario exercise, but in my experience you usually do that after you've done your first-draft risk assessment and management. The purpose of the exercise is to make an extreme but reasonable test of your safeguards, not scare the life out of you. You need an experienced risk assessor to conduct the exercise, who'll have planned out the scenario in advance, and the outcome will be that you then go and redraft your risk management if you need to.

It can also be the source of a good deal of dark humour. I went to a risk exercise a while back where we were allowed to set up our own scenario - only to be told, "No, Adeodatus, you can't have an asteroid colliding with the chapel."

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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The other safety things are buckets of sand put at strategic places, making all the children face into the circle and hold out their candle in front of them and the helpers going around do a certain amount of making sure that hair is away from flames. They all sing "Round orange" and blow the candles out at the end, before moving back to their seats, or the helpers help them do so!

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Yes, I think that's it exactly. Apparently last year (I didn't see this, but I believe it) a group of Dads realising we were tight for space, selflessly left their wives with the over-excited toddlers in the pews and sat on the floor in front of one of our exits.

This is clearly a problem. We need to make sure it doesn't happen this year. But I'm not convinced about not lighting the Christingles.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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We have the buckets of sand at the ready!
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Curiosity killed ...

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You can get (naff) little plastic flickering lights. The local hospice use them for their Light up a Life service.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Adeodatus
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Probably the best safeguards are:

1. Have 4 - 6 people who've done basic fire safety training designated as "safety wardens". Identify them with sashes, big badges, whatever.

2. In particular, make sure your wardens know the "stop, drop, roll" technique if anyone's clothing or hair catches fire.

3. Have one person with a mobile phone designated to call emergency services if anything does happen.

4. Have some extra firefighting equipment around. Not just sand buckets (which are great for extinguishing candles anyway), but fire blankets big enough to wrap people in.

5. Brief the congregation beforehand: keep christingles away from hair and clothing. If anything does happen, step aside to make way for the safety wardens.

6. Keep exits clear.

7. Enjoy your christingle service.

That's just off the top of my head as I slurp a mug of coffee. There's probably more you could do, but be sensible.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Laurence
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I think it strikes me as identical to the mad panic that prevented some congregations from receiving the Blood of Christ (or even shaking hands at the Peace) because they might get swine flu a few years back. This ridiculous situation went on in some congregations for months after the swine flu outbreak had subsided "just in case".

If the only way people can see to assuage their safety concerns is to fundamentally change the character of the event, then what's the point of doing the event in the first place? Christingle services are about the sharing of light in a dark world. Obviously I'm not suggesting giving flame-throwers to toddlers. But it seems to me that people are being rather too aware of the darkness of the world in their risk assessments.

Just light the things, having taken reasonable precautions that hundreds of other churches do every year! Or don't have a Christingle service at all- do something else.

(ETA- cross-posted with Adeodatus's very good list, which should surely calm the hearts of the most risk-averse PCC)

[ 02. November 2012, 11:52: Message edited by: Laurence ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The other safety things are buckets of sand put at strategic places, making all the children face into the circle and hold out their candle in front of them and the helpers going around do a certain amount of making sure that hair is away from flames. They all sing "Round orange"

Oh how I hate that song.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Enoch
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I can see the worry, but not letting the children stand in a circle, hold their own orange with their own flickering candle and singing the chosen carol with the church lights turned off, more or less as Cottontail describes, is likely to mean they won't bother to come next year.

Likewise not giving them a nice mince pie and squash or a warm drink afterwards because one is worried they might get e coli.

But I suppose that will solve the problem for future years.

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bib
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I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is, although it sounds a little like carols by candlelight. It is possible to purchase lights that do not involve flame. Once you activate them they give off light for a couple of hours. They were preferred at last year's carols by candlelight and of course posed no risks to young children.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Adeodatus
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The food hygiene thing is also very simple.

1. Wash your hands thoroughly before cooking or handling food.

2. Observe "use by" dates.

3. Make sure food is properly cooked.

4. Use only pasteurised milk and fruit juices.

5. If food is laid out waiting to be served, keep it covered with clean greaseproof paper.

The thing is, people know all this, but they get all jittery and panicky. Maybe they're scared of litigation. If so, all you really need to do is to have it written down somewhere that this is how you do things, and make sure this really is how you do things. Litigation is only really a problem if you've neglected to deal with a foreseeable outcome. And I assume your church has public liability insurance?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Zach82
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My fiancee had to put out a little girl's hair during a Sunday school that involved kiddies holding lit candles once. It does happen.

[ 02. November 2012, 13:06: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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bib,
quote:
I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is,
This is a Christingle. The sweets stuck on the cocktail sticks are the main attraction to small children.

Our Christingle services include a very simple retelling of the Christmas story, giving out and lighting the Christingles, singing some simple Christmas hymns, and a talk about the symbolism of the Christingle.

The candles are a bit more risky than carols by candlelight, because of children moving them around whilst grazing on the sweets, trying to nab their sibling's sweets etc. It's a sort of combined toy/ naked flame.

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

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Sunday school has a high kid:adult ratio (well, OK, Sunday School at churches with more than one family with young children). If the kids get over-excited, goofy, or are just plain naughty that can create problems.

At a Christingle, or any other family service, there are more adults around. In particular, the kids will be accompanied by a parent/grandparent or other responsible carer. That changes the dynamic, and the risk. Providing the adult carers are sensible, are supervising the kids in their care and have some level of control then the risks of lighted candles are minimized.

And, contrary to the "selfless" behaviour of dads who gave up their chairs (hardly selfless as that leaves their partners in sole charge of the kids - selfless would be "I can handle this dear, go and find a childless friend to sit with") that probably means all carers mucking in.

A simple statement at the beginning. "Some people have expressed concern about over excited children with lit candles. Those of you who have children, please ensure that your children behave responsibly when the candles are lit."

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is, although it sounds a little like carols by candlelight. It is possible to purchase lights that do not involve flame. Once you activate them they give off light for a couple of hours. They were preferred at last year's carols by candlelight and of course posed no risks to young children.

But are completely boring and destroy the entire ambiance.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Zach82
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Do they have to be part of their own service? It seems like a neat thing to hand out to the kiddies for the carols-by-candlight service.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Do they have to be part of their own service? It seems like a neat thing to hand out to the kiddies for the carols-by-candlight service.

Heh. If you call it a "Christingle" then the church will be full. If you call it "Carols by Candlelight" the church will be half empty. Marketing, dear boy, marketing.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Zach82
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If you call it "Christingle" in the United States, no one will know what you are talking about. [Biased]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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We have a full church for both Christingle and Carols by Candlelight. But apart from the stalwarts from the regular congregation, we attract a different set of people for each service. It's the difference between "Away in a Manger" and "O Come, o come, Emmanuel" - the over 8s don't want to sing Away in a Manger, the parents of under 8s don't want to keep them amused during more complicated hymns. So people naturally chose which service is most family-friendly for them.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
If you call it "Christingle" in the United States, no one will know what you are talking about. [Biased]

This I know.

Last year Christingle was on something like the 2nd December. The Rector, bless his cotton socks (or not, All Saints threads passim), told the kids to keep the orange and put it on the Christmas Dinner table to remind them of what they'd talked about at Christingle.

Thanks, Rev. Three squishy mouldy oranges with green bits hanging off them by 25th...

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Zach82
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In the US Church, it is common to have an early evening Christmas Eve carol service oriented towards families, and then "Midnight Mass with Carols" for a more grown-up experience. So we've already got that division going on.

[ 02. November 2012, 13:51: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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We have four different Christmas services -Christingle, Carols by Candlelight, midnight Watchnight, Christmas Day. Plus a "gift service" at the start of December for donations of toys etc for social services, but that service doesn't attract any extra people. Christmas Day, too, tends to be mostly the regular congregation.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Orienting a service towards families over here usually guarantees the congregation will be thirty old ladies and four grandchildren.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Triple Tiara

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My fiancee had to put out a little girl's hair during a Sunday school that involved kiddies holding lit candles once. It does happen.

I had to jump up and smack a Cardinal once - not to tell him he was an eejit or because I objected to the homily, but because he had leant into a candle unawares and the chasuble was starting to burn!

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Zach82
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Christmas tends to be a private, family holiday in the United States. Christmas Eve services are often packed to the rafters, but Christmas morning is usually sparsely attended.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Karl,
quote:
Orienting a service towards families over here usually guarantees the congregation will be thirty old ladies and four grandchildren.
You're describing our dreaded "no Sunday School today, it's an All Age Service" avoided by every sensible parent, and full of elderly people struggling to do the "fun" action songs.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Karl,
quote:
Orienting a service towards families over here usually guarantees the congregation will be thirty old ladies and four grandchildren.
You're describing our dreaded "no Sunday School today, it's an All Age Service" avoided by every sensible parent, and full of elderly people struggling to do the "fun" action songs.
Oh don't - nothing more toe-curlingly awful than watching a bunch of uninterested kids reading books or playing on DSes while their parents/keepers enthusiastically do "one potato, two potato" actions to I will build my Church

If I've led a wicked life, or some more enthusiastic supporters of the Hell doctrine are right, that that's what'll happen to me for all eternity - devils with guitars hanging on rainbow straps forcing me to run on the spot as I sing "the name of the Lord is a strong tower"

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima, maxima culpa; miserere mihi in die carminae actionis!

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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This is drifting away from the risks of toddlers / naked flames / sticky-out pointy cocktail sticks, but why can we fill the church to bursting point, standing room only, for Christingle; to the extent we have to risk assess for conflagrations in a tightly packed church, but on a normal Sunday we are two-thirds empty, with a median age of over 50?

[Confused]

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
birdie

fowl
# 2173

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My neice's hair was once ignited by a christingle. Swift application of a service sheet to beat out the flames dealt with it without her even noticing.

I think the reason it happened that time was that the church was full, and the kids were doing some sort of procession with the christingles lit. So there were a lot of kids, and the one behind R was shorter than her, and close behind. Ideal hair-ignition conditions, I'd have said.

I think if the kids stay still when the candles are lit, and sit in their circle or whatever, and the candles are blown out before anybody goes anywhere else, that would go a long way to minimising the risk.

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Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
This is drifting away from the risks of toddlers / naked flames / sticky-out pointy cocktail sticks, but why can we fill the church to bursting point, standing room only, for Christingle; to the extent we have to risk assess for conflagrations in a tightly packed church, but on a normal Sunday we are two-thirds empty, with a median age of over 50?

[Confused]

Sweets? It's only once a year? Habit?

Our gaff'd consider it a miracle if the median age was only over 50. Over 80 seems more usual.

[ 02. November 2012, 14:40: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Two churches, two very different Cristingle services. In one they had the Scouts in so around forty kids, who were given Cristingles as part of the service. In the other the children were a subset of the Junior Church plus a family who happened already to be visiting Grandparents for Christmas. They made their own Cristingle. The thing was that at least for the smaller kids they both used glo sticks instead of candles.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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£18.89 for 25. I reckon we'd need 5 packs - almost £100.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Yes but that is just an illustration, here are two hundred for less than £100 and I suspect that if you raided local discount stalls you might well find them going for less.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Olaf
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# 11804

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Do you have a fire fighter in the congregation, or perhaps would you be willing to hire one for the night? You have to be careful about this, as it takes a very patient fire fighter to be around children with candles. If you have a trusted fire fighter friend or acquaintance, s/he could probably provide invaluable advice about evacuation plans and safety devices needed. In my town, even if we as a church randomly called the fire department and explained the predicament, I'm sure we could get a consultant to attend who would most likely refuse payment. The key, though, would be to get a level-headed person you know and trust.

[ 02. November 2012, 15:22: Message edited by: Olaf ]

Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

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I go with one of the posters above. Our Christingle tends to be packed, rivalling our midnight service. We expect around 200 people upwards. The Children's Society, which sponsors Christingle services on this side of the border offers this sensible safety poster.

When the time comes to distribute the Christingles the safety points are outlined by the service leader; the children come out and collect their oranges and spread round the church forming a large circle facing inwards round the edges (parents are encouraged to accompany children who 'need help'); when children reach a standing still point, one of the four helpers who is lighting lights their candle, children have been told to stand still, hold the candle straight up in front of them with two hands, and not to bend over it, long hair should be tied back. Once all the candles are lit we sing (us. 'Away in a manger' because children can usually sing the first verse at least without a hymn sheet). Children are then told to blow their candle out, being careful of hot wax, and to return quietly to their seats. The noise level usually rises at this point as the lights go up again, but after a few minutes things calm down again.

Our risk assessment is that the big safety hazards are moving with lighted candles (we don't do it) bending over candles or having hair in candles (we give appropriate warnings), and children who are too young to cope (we require parents/carers to exercise their discretion). So far so good (over the last ten years or so).

Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Many thanks everyone, for the sensible advice. We seem to have lots of options other than not lighting the Christingles.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Rob
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# 5823

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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is, although it sounds a little like carols by candlelight. It is possible to purchase lights that do not involve flame. Once you activate them they give off light for a couple of hours. They were preferred at last year's carols by candlelight and of course posed no risks to young children.

Since Google is your friend, you can always find out about Christingle there. But it's interesting to note that some variant or another of Christingle is observed all across the UK, so everyone there knows what it is.

What am a Christingle?

In the USA no one knows what Christingle is because the custom of such services was never widely introduced here. That said, the now ubiquitous Christingle service in England was introduced by there by Anglicans only in 1968. The Christingle service itself seems to have been originally devised by the German Moravians, and it can be dated with them as far back as the year 1747.
*

Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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It ws kind of forced on me in my parish in NZ. I hate it, but at least insofar as it attracts lots of people to church it seems inexplicably to "work". It seems to me like a gimmick looking for a liturgy, but so alas do a lot of things. So when someone in this parish eventually suggests it I guess I'll have to supress my cynicism and let it happen.

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
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# 3208

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I am as conservative as they come with worship, but for some reason I kind of like this idea. Though, given my druthers, I would probably just make it an understated part of the usual carols service by handing them to the kiddies instead of plain old candles. Kinda like the Advent wreath- just have it there. It doesn't need to be a frakkin' cutsey production!

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
bib
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# 13074

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I still think glo sticks are a safer alternative to candles around young children and in my experience they find them lots of fun. If cost is an issue, how about they buy one at the door -people were happy to do that at our carols by Candlelight Service. Surely safety is the main issue here as burns can maim a child for life.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged



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