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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charismatic Anglicans
Evensong
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The newly appointed Archbishop of Canterbury has been described in a few places as a "charismatic" Anglican ( not as in personal charisma ).

What does that mean?

Is there something one does differently or believes differently or just expresses differently?

What does a charismatic Anglican service look like....?

Bit of a silly question I spose.....but we're rather middle of the road round 'ere. The fringes are the evangelicals or Anglo-catholics.

So where do the charismatics fit?

Google didn't seem to very helpful except for mentioning speaking in tongues.....but I thought that was a more Pentecostal thing....

[Paranoid]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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They're normally evangelical in theology, and their services are much like any other charismatic service, with greater or lesser amounts of liturgy thrown in according to what the rubrics let them get away with/what they think they can get away with despite the rubrics.

Speaking in tongues would be far from unusual.

Around here the crossover between evangelical and charismatic is vanishingly close to 100%

[ 09. November 2012, 13:34: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Bostonman
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To your last point: my understanding is that all Pentecostals are charismatic, but not all charismatics are Pentecostal. In other words, Pentecostalism is a particular historical/denominational movement, while charismaticism is a theology/worship style that can be found in a variety of different Christian denominations
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Chorister

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I think it can vary hugely. For example, some charismatic Anglicans I know don't like gays and don't like women priests. Which is very different to Justin Welby and others who think as he does. Perhaps 'charismatic' is, in the end, just a way of describing the more extrovert Evangelicals in the Anglican church?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I think it can vary hugely. For example, some charismatic Anglicans I know don't like gays and don't like women priests. Which is very different to Justin Welby and others who think as he does. Perhaps 'charismatic' is, in the end, just a way of describing the more extrovert Evangelicals in the Anglican church?

It is today. It was not always so. The evangelicals were long very suspicious of the charismatic movement, which itself didn't really have a set theology. The evangelicals didn't like it because they were suspicious of basing anything on experience, rather than "what the Scripture sayth", and indeed many were cessationists, so tended to see charismatic phenomena as purely human, at best, or demonic at worst.

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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:


The newly appointed Archbishop of Canterbury has been described in a few places as a "charismatic" Anglican ( not as in personal charisma ).

What does that mean? ...


Generally today it means being loose enough to be happy-clappy in worship style with Neo-Pentacostal bits for openness and warmth.

There was a forceful Pentacostal movement that began in Anglicanism, principally in The Episcopal and also in American Roman Catholic churches around 1967, and thereafter. Fundamental to the movement was the belief that Christians may be "filled with" or "baptized in" the Holy Spirit as a second experience subsequent to salvation and that it will be evidenced by manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

The Charismatic movement has waned and is no longer very influential except in its happy-clappy legacy taken up by a lot of Evangelicals. While Justin Welby could well have been formerly involved in or influenced by the movement, he seems very much a liberal Evangelical now. I think the term "Charismatic" is misapplied to him if it has been used.
*

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dj_ordinaire
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I think that Archbishop-Elect Welby has spoken warmly of seeing groups of young Christians praying in tongues and exploring other forms of Charism-based worship, which I think is where the claim that he is himself a charismatic comes from. I'm not sure whether this is quite right as in how important it is to his own liturgical life, as opposed to something that he is open to others doing.

There are a few charismatic Anglo-catholic parishes around (including one in snakebelly Ipswich of all places!) so it is not necessarily associated with evangelicalism either, although it most commonly seems to be.

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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

The newly appointed Archbishop of Canterbury has been described in a few places as a "charismatic" Anglican ( not as in personal charisma ).

... What does that mean ..?


Entirely apart from a digression into the slippery interpretations of the Charismatic movement, as I said in my earlier reply to you, Evensong, I think the term "charismatic" is not an appropriate descriptive term to use for Welby. In other words, Justin Welby is not a charismatic as you might have heard.

This very recent piece from the Guardian by Peter Stanford is quite accurate about Justin Welby, and about some, not all, of this prior formation in the Church of England. In the Stanford article the word "charismatic" doesn't appear even once in relation to Welby.

The Evangelical HQ that considers the new primate as one of its own
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daronmedway
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He was a lay reader at HTB though, AFAIK.
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The newly appointed Archbishop of Canterbury has been described in a few places as a "charismatic" Anglican ( not as in personal charisma ).

What does that mean?

In evangelical circles it means evangelicals who are a little more "into" God speaking through manifestations of the Holy Spirit in form of spiritual gifts and supernatural "stuff" (e.g. HTB, New Wine, Alpha) compared to the more conservative "God only speaks through preachers or during bible-study" evangelicals (e.g. Sydney, St Helen's Bishopsgate, Christianity Explored) .

[ 10. November 2012, 21:29: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
originally posted by Mr Rob
The Charismatic movement has waned and is no longer very influential except in its happy-clappy legacy taken up by a lot of Evangelicals. While Justin Welby could well have been formerly involved in or influenced by the movement, he seems very much a liberal Evangelical now. I think the term "Charismatic" is misapplied to him if it has been used.

I'm not sure this is true on this side of the pond. As KLB has said, most CofE churches which are evangelical in theology are now, to a greater or lesser extent, charismatic in practice, or "vineyard-lite, as Gamaliel would put it. Of course, HTB is the church that everyone associates with charismaticism, but it is really quite widespread. The Conservative Evangelicalism of such places as St Helens, Bishopsgate or Jesmond Parish, is a much smaller stream within Anglicanism. Even some of these preaching shacks (well, perhaps not those two, but some others associated with their brand of reformed theology) have been known to do charismatic-lite.

From everything I have read about ++Justin, I would put him firmly in the open evangelical/charismatic tradition. This doesn't mean, of course, that he cannot appreciate other traditions.

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Zappa
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Interestingly I think Carey identified with the charismatics, too. Basically I's add my amen to Karl: Liberal Backslider and Mr Rob's analyses above. I was priest in a charismatic church in EnZed in the early '90s which identified strongly with John Wimber, and hosted him often, though not when I was there. They exorcised epileptic cats.

I'm surprised Evensong that's it's not been a part of your experience, even only with peripheral awareness. I can think of no diocese except Sydney and Ballarat, for vastly different reasons*, that has not been a bastion of or at least infiltrated by so-called renewal at some time, and while the term has, as others above have said, largely merged with happy-clappy now it has been a big and not always detrimental influence on Australian Anglicanism. Several bishops, such as + Hamish Jamieson, and the late + Owen Dowling identified strongly with the movement, both of those being from a slightly Carflick background.

*Sydney's rather cerebral evangelicalism, as it was until 20 years ago, tended to frown on it as it could lead to joy. Ballarat couldn't put the incense down or pause from self-crossing for long enough to raise hands in charismatic worship, and didn't need to sing in tongues as their masses were already in latin [Biased]

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Gee D
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Zappa , near us is an old-fashioned low church - not at all Moore College. They still use the BCP or AAPB , surplice and stole etc. Friends who go there say that there is quite a strong charismatic movement which successive rectors have so far managed to keep under control.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Zappa , near us is an old-fashioned low church - not at all Moore College. They still use the BCP or AAPB , surplice and stole etc. Friends who go there say that there is quite a strong charismatic movement which successive rectors have so far managed to keep under control.

You mean quench?
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MSHB
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I can think of no diocese except Sydney and Ballarat, for vastly different reasons*, that has not been a bastion of or at least infiltrated by so-called renewal at some time, and while the term has, as others above have said, largely merged with happy-clappy now it has been a big and not always detrimental influence on Australian Anglicanism. Several bishops, such as + Hamish Jamieson, and the late + Owen Dowling identified strongly with the movement, both of those being from a slightly Carflick background.

*Sydney's rather cerebral evangelicalism, as it was until 20 years ago, tended to frown on it as it could lead to joy. Ballarat couldn't put the incense down or pause from self-crossing for long enough to raise hands in charismatic worship, and didn't need to sing in tongues as their masses were already in latin [Biased]

Oh, it exists in Sydney (I am thinking of a parish in the St George area, for example). And there were quite a few people in my former Anglican parish (also St George area) that were involved in the charismatic movement back in the 1970s - we even had a series on different Anglican traditions within Sydney where a charismatic Anglican minister (along with Anglo-Catholic, liberal, and Jensenite clergy) addressed the youth fellowship on different evenings about their respective traditions.

Note: some of the Anglican parishes in Sydney have decidedly non-Anglo congregations, and maybe the charismatic element flies below the episcopal radar, one way or another. Bit hard for the spies from central office to monitor your services for heresy when the spies cannot understand a single word in the service. [Big Grin]

PS: I have been out of the Anglican church for a long time, so I am going on info from *my* spies.

[ 11. November 2012, 08:27: Message edited by: MSHB ]

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geroff
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Part of my early Christian experience was the charismatic movement in the Anglican church but for me it was quite ecumenical. I went to a prayer group at a famous RC school which was RC, Anglican, Methodist and Baptist. If you look at this site about Fr Michael Harper you will find that he, as a pioneer of this in the CofE, saw it very much as an ecumenical movement.
I have been looking for the pictures of clergy dancing in the aisles of Walsingham Shrine in 1976(?) but no luck yet.
I have been disappointed that the movement is now so associated with the Evangelical, almost anti-ecumenical, wing of the church as it seemed so relevant in the Anglo Catholic tradition of the then curate of our church who first introduced us to it in 1976.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Zappa , near us is an old-fashioned low church - not at all Moore College. They still use the BCP or AAPB , surplice and stole etc. Friends who go there say that there is quite a strong charismatic movement which successive rectors have so far managed to keep under control.

You mean quench?
No, there are charismatic services, but the traditional services stay untouched. I'm unable to comment on MSHB's post. I am fluent in English and reasonably so in French, but from there on, I'm limited to tourist German and so forth.

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geroff
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I'm unable to comment on MSHB's post. I am fluent in English and reasonably so in French, but from there on, I'm limited to tourist German and so forth.

[Killing me]
I too have a rusty gift of interpretation in the charismatic language.

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Utrecht Catholic
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Some Evangelical Anglicans might describe the new Archbp.Justin Welby as a fellow Evangelical,but would it not be much better to regard him as an Open Broadminded Anglican ?
He told told reporters recently that he loves the Catholic style of worship and that he is interesed in the spirituality of the monastic tradition.
In addition to this, I would like to recall that he was responsible for a Walsingham Day in Liverpool Cathedral,October 2009, which included a Solemn Mass and Solemn Evensong with
Benediction.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

I'm surprised Evensong that's it's not been a part of your experience, even only with peripheral awareness. I can think of no diocese except Sydney and Ballarat, for vastly different reasons*, that has not been a bastion of or at least infiltrated by so-called renewal at some time, and while the term has, as others above have said, largely merged with happy-clappy now it has been a big and not always detrimental influence on Australian Anglicanism. Several bishops, such as + Hamish Jamieson, and the late + Owen Dowling identified strongly with the movement, both of those being from a slightly Carflick background.

It's really not a big deal in this diocese. Promise! (Tho it may have been in the past. I'm 38 and I've only been a Christian for 11 years)

I was told to attend a particular parish as part of my training because they were supposed to be "charismatic" but apart from an overzealous welcomer ( the woman gave me a hug!), a few hands up in the air during the songs, and an execrable handling of the sacrament, I couldn't really figure out what was particularly "charismatic".

On the other hand, the priest was away and we had a locum and guest preacher in so perhaps it was an off day.....

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Lucia

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I've spent 20 or so years as part one such church and I would say from my experience that there is an openness to and expectation that God will speak and intervene in direct and tangible ways that are not limited purely to him speaking through the scriptures.

The practical out workings I've seen of this in services and smaller meetings have been people speaking/singing in tongues, people sharing 'words from the Lord' and 'pictures from the Lord' (including to the whole congregation during services), an emphasis on people being prayed for in a way that has the expectation for the miraculous to happen eg healing, people falling over when being prayed for in church, emotionally charged worship and a strong emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit to transform individuals.

However I'm not sure you would necessarily see an obvious difference in one service at a charismatic Anglican church because an openness to these things does not mean they automatically happen at every service. But the theological mindset tends to underlie all that the church is doing.

I have more questions about it all now than I did in the past, but those questions have been the subject of discussion on numerous other threads!

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Gamaliel
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I'd go along with Lucia and what many other posters have said on this one ... it's more of a 'style' now though, than a theological position in a fixed sense - perhaps it always was: 'A spirituality in search of a theology.'

My feeling is that back in the late-60s/early 70s there was more Anglo-Catholic/RC involvement with the 'renewal' (as it tended to be called then) than there is now. In the UK at least, it's largely associated with New Wine, HTB, Alpha, the Vineyard and what's emerged from the 'restorationist' churches and networks of the 70s-90s.

A question I would have for daronmedway, though, would be :

How does 'control' and 'quenching' differ?

In my experience the whole 'quench not the Spirit' thing tended to be used to quench genuine expressions of unease or dissent rather than to protect anything that was unequivocably holy, useful or indeed helpful ...

'Don't quench the Spirit' tends to be short-hand in many charismatic circles for 'Don't disagree with me ...'

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A question I would have for daronmedway, though, would be :

How does 'control' and 'quenching' differ?

In my experience the whole 'quench not the Spirit' thing tended to be used to quench genuine expressions of unease or dissent rather than to protect anything that was unequivocably holy, useful or indeed helpful ...

'Don't quench the Spirit' tends to be short-hand in many charismatic circles for 'Don't disagree with me ...'

Well, let's bring out big guns old stylee! Psalm 105:15 says, "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm."
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gorpo
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The difference between "charismatic" and "pentecostal" is simply that charismatics are part of historic churches (including Roman Catholics), while pentecostals are in independent denominations, and also that pentecostals believe "baptism in the holy spirit" is a different experience from the water baptism and speaking in tongues is an evidence of receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, while charismatics think it´s just a "plus", and not a requirement... if I´m not mistaken.
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Gamaliel
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I think that's largely true, Gorpo, but there are nuances and the mileage varies. In the UK, for instance, the Elim Pentecostals would be less inclined to be dogmatic about 'tongues' as the definitive sign of the 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' than the Assemblies of God.

I think Andrew Walker the sociologist - who grew up Elim Pentecostal and later became Orthodox - is close on the mark when he wrote that 'a charismatic in a middle-class Pentecostal.'

In many instances the difference between charismatics and penties is socio-economic and demographic rather than theological and ecclesiastical.

@daronmedway ... are you seriously bringing out the big guns on this one with that proof-text or are you teasing me?

I've started a new thread on the 'quench the Spirit' issue by the way.

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PD
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I sourly refer to them as the four legged brigade as the Charismatic Anglicans tend to be add 'experience' to the familiar three legged stool of John Keble's preface to Hooker. However, experience tends to lead to a wobbly chair, and from what I have seen of charismatics they seem to wobble all over the place.

FWIW, my first encounter with a charismatic clergyman almost made me an atheist, and my second did make me all but a cessationist. I really have to force myself to keep even a partly open mind on the charismatic movement.

BTW, John Keble's preface to Hooker misrepresents the old boy. Hooker believed in a hierarchy of truth - Scripture, then Reason, and finally Tradition. As an old-fashioned High Churchman I tend to use the image of the child's tricycle - Scripture being the big wheel with the steering and the pedals...

PD

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Zappa
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I stand happily corrected by those above who know the Sydney scene better than I do ... mea culpa. Evensong, I would say a hug at the door and waving hands are fairly strong charismatic indicators these days. That said my NZ church had some hand wavers: I encouraged it during the gloria but few took me up on it, preferring instead to reserve it for Kendrick and Bullock.

Though I do not identify as charismatic I certainly never discouraged it - we had a vast array of theological perspectives in that parish, though perhaps the Spongians tended to drift away.

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
FWIW, my first encounter with a charismatic clergyman almost made me an atheist, and my second did make me all but a cessationist. I really have to force myself to keep even a partly open mind on the charismatic movement.

Ha! Such experiences generally make me want to quote +Joseph Butler: "Sir the pretending to extraordinary revelations and gifts of the Holy Ghost is a horrid thing, a very horrid thing."

Not saying this is one of the sternest tests of Christian charity.

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Ruudy
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quote:
Originally posted by geroff:
If you look at this site about Fr Michael Harper you will find that he, as a pioneer of this in the CofE, saw it very much as an ecumenical movement.

I find it remarkable that the beginnings of the Charismatic Anglicans began with a priest at cessationist All Soul's Langham Place. Wasn't all evangelical Anglicanism primarily cessationist? What portion of evangelical Anglicans are charismatic vs cessationist today?

While I knew Fr Michael well (one of the Rudlets is the baptism pictured at the bottom of the biography page), I mainly discussed Eastern Orthodox theology and early church fathers or was seeking spiritual direction. At the time, I did not understand the extent of his influence on evangelicalism in the Anglican communion.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruudy:
quote:
Originally posted by geroff:
If you look at this site about Fr Michael Harper you will find that he, as a pioneer of this in the CofE, saw it very much as an ecumenical movement.

I find it remarkable that the beginnings of the Charismatic Anglicans began with a priest at cessationist All Soul's Langham Place. Wasn't all evangelical Anglicanism primarily cessationist? What portion of evangelical Anglicans are charismatic vs cessationist today?

For my money - too damn many of the former and not enough of the latter. But then, I am not exactly unbiassed.

Traditional Anglican Evangelicalism is cessationist, and also, IIRC, Post-Millenialist. I share the framework, even though my Churchmanship is more the Old High Church type.

PD

[ 13. November 2012, 05:32: Message edited by: PD ]

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Enoch
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I think it's misleading to describe traditional anyone as 'cessationist'. One can only be consciously 'cessationist' in response to 'charismatics'. In 1960 I don't think many people were conscious of what we now call charismatic gifts at all. The relevant chapters in 1 Corinthians were regarded as about as obscure, of another time and below the theological horizon as much of Leviticus.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
In 1960 I don't think many people were conscious of what we now call charismatic gifts at all. The relevant chapters in 1 Corinthians were regarded as about as obscure, of another time and below the theological horizon as much of Leviticus.

I'm not sure that's true. Maybe in the 1920s, but not the 1960s. Everyone would have known about Pentecostal churches. They may well have thought they were a load of partially-educated over-excitable lower-middle-class middle-aged women who were two bags of nuts short of a fruitcake, but they'd have heard of them. And evangelicals at least would probably have a few proof texts up their sleeve to show how the Pentcostals were wrong.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I sourly refer to them as the four legged brigade as the Charismatic Anglicans tend to be add 'experience' to the familiar three legged stool of John Keble's preface to Hooker. However, experience tends to lead to a wobbly chair, and from what I have seen of charismatics they seem to wobble all over the place.

FWIW, my first encounter with a charismatic clergyman almost made me an atheist, and my second did make me all but a cessationist. I really have to force myself to keep even a partly open mind on the charismatic movement.

BTW, John Keble's preface to Hooker misrepresents the old boy. Hooker believed in a hierarchy of truth - Scripture, then Reason, and finally Tradition. As an old-fashioned High Churchman I tend to use the image of the child's tricycle - Scripture being the big wheel with the steering and the pedals...

PD

Great analogy. Now get on it and enjoy the experience of riding it. You could even blow raspberries as you ride around. You never know, you might enjoy it (which, incidentally is an experience too).

[ 13. November 2012, 16:45: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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dj_ordinaire
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Keep it polite, people.

I'm sure we can discuss Charismatic worship without the assistance of either sourness or raspberries.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

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Edward Green
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As others have noted Charismatic can mean different things. For me it means that I have a supernatural and experiential approach to worship (especially through the sacrifice of the mass), expect God to speak through others in terms of spiritual gifts (implicitly and explicitly), acknowledge both ecstatic and contemplative forms of spirituality and am always very happy to pray for others or be prayed for. I do not hold to a theology of second blessing or see a huge difference between praying in tongues and praying the rosary. I do lift my hands in worship, especially during the Eucharistic prayer and am happy for others to do likewise.

My point of view is as far as I can tell pretty mainstream amongst my generation of more catholic minded clergy.

The differences in the CofE lie in how this is expressed. We have a spirituality group in the benefice with a group of people committed to a common rule of life. I would say it is implicitly Charismatic in that the spirit works in the ways I have described.

We also have a new plant where worship is more informal, people stand a share during the service (rather than in a separate group), prayer ministry is offered and I encourage prophetic gifts to be shared after we have shared in the Eucharist. This is more explicitly charismatic.

People from one group do not necessarily feel comfortable in the other!

The other defining aspect of a particular stream of Charismatic expression is about order and control. Is the focus on one 'annointed' individual or on a particular active group in the church? Is it an anarchic free for all with some dubious words, or is there a safe environment where we can share as we are led?

Some of the most powerful charismatic words I have heard have been shared in smaller gatherings by people who wouldn't know what a Wimber wobble was if it whacked them. To be truly charismatic is to acknowledge and create these spaces rather than to simply have some nice modern worship songs, lifted hands and that prophetic word about the river of God we have heard 1000 times before.

I imagine Justin is aware of these issues and I would be very comfortable about inviting him to either group as he would 'get it'.

Where charismatic Anglicanism goes wrong is where it becomes a 'we're special' club, but here as a catholic with a very high view of the sacraments I must be careful of my own glass walls. I think I have offended friends in the past by stating that I believe the charismatic gifts can be just as present in a village PCC as in St.Aldates or HTB.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
To be truly charismatic is to acknowledge and create these spaces [a safe environment where we can share as we are led] rather than to simply have some nice modern worship songs, lifted hands and that prophetic word about the river of God we have heard 1000 times before.

That's a great way of putting it - 'creating safe environments where we can share as we are led'.
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I think I have offended friends in the past by stating that I believe the charismatic gifts can be just as present in a village PCC as in St.Aldates or HTB.

Do you think the opinion your offended friends had is a common one, either among charismatic Anglicans or more widely? I'm a bit surprised and saddened by the idea that lots of charismatic Christians think the Holy Spirit can only do his spiritual gift-giving work in certain buildings...

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Edward Green
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Do you think the opinion your offended friends had is a common one, either among charismatic Anglicans or more widely? I'm a bit surprised and saddened by the idea that lots of charismatic Christians think the Holy Spirit can only do his spiritual gift-giving work in certain buildings...

I think it can be related to Anglican hang ups especially. As an Anglo-Catholic if I criticise Johnson for his hyper-kenotic leanings I can be seen as anti-charismatic, if I claim charismatic gifts in traditional worship I can be seen as treading on toes.

Even amongst those who value different traditions there can be a desire to keep those traditions separate. From what I recall there was an element of this in independent churches where you are expected to behave according to type - NFI did x, Pioneer did y and the FIEC did z.

Personally I try to be open, and when Driscoll or Andy Hickford preach on the real presence and communion I welcome it!

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South Coast Kevin
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Right, cheers for the reply Edward. Sad that we (in general) get so defensive and precious about our labels and our specific customs. [Frown]

Although I'm in danger of entering Yes Minister Irregular Verb Territory:

I uphold vital matters of doctrine
You are overly protective of your denomination's customs
They are precious about trivial matters

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Barefoot Friar

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I sourly refer to them as the four legged brigade as the Charismatic Anglicans tend to be add 'experience' to the familiar three legged stool of John Keble's preface to Hooker. However, experience tends to lead to a wobbly chair, and from what I have seen of charismatics they seem to wobble all over the place.

FWIW, my first encounter with a charismatic clergyman almost made me an atheist, and my second did make me all but a cessationist. I really have to force myself to keep even a partly open mind on the charismatic movement.

BTW, John Keble's preface to Hooker misrepresents the old boy. Hooker believed in a hierarchy of truth - Scripture, then Reason, and finally Tradition. As an old-fashioned High Churchman I tend to use the image of the child's tricycle - Scripture being the big wheel with the steering and the pedals...

PD

That's not unique to charismatic Anglicans. That's actually Wesleyan, and there is a definite hierarchy. Scripture is definitely primary, followed by tradition, then reason, and only then by experience. Wesley was accused of being "enthusiastic" in his time, but by today's charismatic standards it really wasn't too much. We Methodists tend to smile at the top of our lungs.

The Charismatic movement swept through the US when I was a child. I remember it nearly split the UMC during the 80s and 90s. There are still a few still around who consider themselves to be charismatic, but most of them either left or moved on to new things. (I don't want to say 'grew out of it', because that implies they were wrong. Still, not my cuppa tea.) There are quite a few UM churches that have contemporary worship services, but that's not the same thing (although I will say that all the charismatics I've ever encountered did have what they called contemporary worship, even if the music was 20 years old).

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Wesley was accused of being "enthusiastic" in his time, but by today's charismatic standards it really wasn't too much. We Methodists tend to smile at the top of our lungs.

I've read that early Methodism (in England) could be quite raucous and emotional, with phenomena such as shouting, falling down, excessive weeping, etc. in gatherings. By the standards of modern English Methodism this is very strange behaviour, although it may be recognisable to today's charismatics (who have also grown rather quieter than they used to be, I think). Things were starting to settle down before Wesley died, and thereafter Wesleyan Methodism developed a more and more restrained image - albeit with lots of smiley singing, certainly.
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Gamaliel
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The shouting, ranting and falling over and so on that marked some of the early Methodist meetings seem to have been sporadic from what I've read. The Wesleys themselves seem to have been rather ambivalent about this sort of thing.

By and large, though, in those instances where this sort of thing happened during open-air preaching it would appear from the accounts I've read that we're talking about people groaning, shouting or fainting/falling over under what old-fashioned evangelicals would call 'conviction of sin.' There was a lot of hell-fire preaching and I'm sure that accounted for the kind of physical reactions that were recorded - people becoming excitable or suggestible or stricken with a sense of guilt or with horror at the idea of eternal damnation and so on.

I think it was John Berridge, the cleric at Everton in Bedfordshire where they experienced 'revival' who actively discouraged people from being demonstrative in any way - ie. putting on pious expressions during prayer and worship etc.

I think comparisons with the later charismatic movement are more analogous than direct.

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SvitlanaV2
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You make an interesting point. Is falling down and shouting, etc., tolerable so long as the vicar is ambivalent as opposed to being enthusiastic about it? The context is relevant, I think. In the average mainstream English church in today's culture, surely noone would behave in this way in the knowledge that their preacher were 'ambivalent'. The congregational demographic, the culture, the preaching, would all go against such an outburst. But Wesley's ambivalence was at work in a very different environment, as you say. (But maybe it was disengenuous of Wesley to claim ambivalence, when his way of making himself 'more foul' was possibly contributing to this behaviour....)

The leaders of the Wesleyan Holiness Church have the stance of neither promoting nor discouraging speaking in tongues, which is a sort of official ambivalence. I wonder if they took this approach from Wesley himself?

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
To your last point: my understanding is that all Pentecostals are charismatic, but not all charismatics are Pentecostal. In other words, Pentecostalism is a particular historical/denominational movement, while charismaticism is a theology/worship style that can be found in a variety of different Christian denominations

And I would also say that whilst not all charismatics are evangelical, not all evangelicals are charismatic either.

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Mudfrog
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... and had I read further down the thread before responding to that post, I would have realised how superfluous my comment was.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A question I would have for daronmedway, though, would be :

How does 'control' and 'quenching' differ?

In my experience the whole 'quench not the Spirit' thing tended to be used to quench genuine expressions of unease or dissent rather than to protect anything that was unequivocably holy, useful or indeed helpful ...

'Don't quench the Spirit' tends to be short-hand in many charismatic circles for 'Don't disagree with me ...'

Well, let's bring out big guns old stylee! Psalm 105:15 says, "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm."
But there was also a lot of very dishonest prophecy going on, too. And in the NT we're told to 'discern' the spirits. It would be dangerous to accept as gospel, everything 'charismatic' by anybody who claims it is. Abuse of the charismatic gifts was well known in Bible times, too. Otherwise why would Paul have needed to issue guidelines on their use and their priority of usefulness in church life?

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