|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Fresh Expressions
|
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
One criticism made of FE is that it tends to be middle class, and usually ignores inner city/council housing estate territory. There are exceptions, but this seems to be broadly true. FE essentially requires that a single church funds and resources two congregations instead of one. In the CofE, I presume that some of the funding will come from elsewhere, but for the Methodists, this can mean that only a relatively wealthy church (or possibly a relatively wealthy circuit) can participate.
As a Methodist I was led to understand that FE was for non-church people. It's not meant to be an escape route for churchgoers who are disaffected with the 'traditional' church format!
Attitudes may be different in the CofE, which is used to different kinds of churchmanship, but the differences between Methodist churches are usually more subtle. So FE is a way of reaching out to seekers, but isn't really viewed as an extension or a reflection of a diversity (of worship styles, etc.) that's already present, or a desire for more diversity.
It would be interesting to know what kind of people are normally drawn into an FE. By now there should be some research on this.
[ 20. November 2012, 17:52: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
This is a bit melodramatic, I know, but can you do fresh expressions in a church which has just taken the decision the C of E has? How freshly can a death-wish be expressed?
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Quite. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One criticism made of FE is that it tends to be middle class, and usually ignores inner city/council housing estate territory. There are exceptions, but this seems to be broadly true. FE essentially requires that a single church funds and resources two congregations instead of one. In the CofE, I presume that some of the funding will come from elsewhere, but for the Methodists, this can mean that only a relatively wealthy church (or possibly a relatively wealthy circuit) can participate.
As a Methodist I was led to understand that FE was for non-church people. It's not meant to be an escape route for churchgoers who are disaffected with the 'traditional' church format!
Since we'd just been effectively told by our parish church "sorry, we're not going to bother to accommodate people like you (i.e. under 80)" that's as maybe. But can I point out that without FE we probably would have become non-church people. So where do you draw the line? Whilst I agree (as does the FE movement) that the primary aim should be reaching the parts that the existing church doesn't reach, if it also provides a home for people who struggle to cope with the existing church then that's all well and good.
Essentially I think the model is that the existing churches consist of people who are comfortable with the existing churches; FE exists for those who aren't and are therefore thought not to be going to church. The model is probably largely true, but it doesn't preclude the possibility of strugglers jumping across.
quote:
Attitudes may be different in the CofE, which is used to different kinds of churchmanship, but the differences between Methodist churches are usually more subtle. So FE is a way of reaching out to seekers, but isn't really viewed as an extension or a reflection of a diversity (of worship styles, etc.) that's already present, or a desire for more diversity.
Well it should be. What we have to be very careful about is seeing it as solely evangelistic and having a sort of expectation that people will ultimately move on to "real" church.
quote:
It would be interesting to know what kind of people are normally drawn into an FE. By now there should be some research on this.
I think that's probably as variable as the range of setups coming under the FE label.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Karl
Oh, I wasn't criticising you for becoming part of an FE, simply expressing what I've read, and the vibes I've picked up. I'm currently between churches, and if I found a suitable FE that would have me, I might stay. But initially, I'd be worried about being seen as an interloper, about not being seen as part of the target group.
The other impression I get is that because FE is designed for non-churchgoers, the presentation of the gospel would be rather basic, the assumption being that participants would have a very low knowledge of the Bible. This might not be entirely satisfactory for practising, knowledgeable Christians who are simply looking for another way of doing church. But perhaps this isn't an issue for the FE you've joined. Small group work and mentoring might overcome this issue.
(In terms of participants, I'm sure there's variety. But it would be interesting to know how many people are returning to church life after an absence, how many were already on the fringes, how many already consider themselves Christians, the age range, etc. This kind of information would be useful to churches that are considering investing in FE, against some of the other models of 'alternative church'.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
I don't think you'd be seen that way at all. This "target group" thing is interesting.
I'm not sure I should identify the FE group I'm attached to, but although it has a very specific "target group", I actually think it could have general appeal to anyone who doesn't have an actual positive aversion to black, gothic style text and unusual body adornments. Perhaps I'm wrong; it's terribly hard to know how PNLU (People Not Like Us) think - which, ironically, is exactly what I think the Church's pressing problem actually is on the whole.
Interestingly, you'd only know that it was a FE setup from the FE site; their own website doesn't mention it. I'm not entirely sure what that means.
I've not found the gospel presentation to be particularly simplistic; the preaching input in the twice-monthly gathering for the Eucharist is minimal (which is great because I get bored in sermons and the kids start eating body parts to stave off the tedium (slight exaggeration only)), but there is a monthly Deep Night dedicated specifically to looking at issues in depth.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
I was told that the definition of a FE is that it comes out of the needs/wants of the people it is for, and not from the ideas of a church and imposed upon them by someone who thinks they know what is needed.
A FE guru told a church I used to attend, that what they saw as it’s valued FE was not, because it was developed from within a church by church members, even though the attendees were mainly non church people.
The other point of a FE is that it is not a stepping stone to ‘regular’ church but that it is church for the attendees.
I have seen quite a few FE’s and some were simply church as we know it, but in a different place. Others were so church ‘lite’ it was hard to see the Christianity there.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
|
Posted
At the heart of FE is the desire to reach the un-churched, not provide a lifeboat for those in the church who are frustrated by the lack of Charisma/Mystery/Informality/Chanting/WorshipSongs/etc.
I am involved in rural Fresh Expressions and I can say with confidence that where I am there are very few people who are completely un-churched as all the local schools are CofE and I make regular visits to social clubs of differing socio-economic backgrounds. So there has to be some flexibility in definition.
--------------------
blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
At the heart of FE is the desire to reach the un-churched, not provide a lifeboat for those in the church who are frustrated by the lack of Charisma/Mystery/Informality/Chanting/WorshipSongs/etc.
I am involved in rural Fresh Expressions and I can say with confidence that where I am there are very few people who are completely un-churched as all the local schools are CofE and I make regular visits to social clubs of differing socio-economic backgrounds. So there has to be some flexibility in definition.
I agree. There are a number of fine lines which defy rigid definition. Where does carefully considering a move of church for valid reasons become an act of church shopping for a church that suits you? Where does unchurched morph into dechurched?
Hmmm. "Dechurchment". I sense a possible new thread, or perhaps a new aspect to one or two existing ones.
As I've mentioned upthread though, my FE outfit does not go out of its way to publicise that that is what it is.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Where does carefully considering a move of church for valid reasons become an act of church shopping for a church that suits you?
I was once rather against the idea of going from church to church, but I currently see its benefits, at least for a time. You learn about different worship styles, meet new people and pick up ideas about what church life can be.
I don't worry too much about thoughts of 'church shopping'. My former minister used to say that you shouldn't go looking for the 'perfect church', because if you found it and joined it, you'd only ruin it. To me, this is a counsel of despair! The implication is that we should just stay put and shut up!
There's a long-standing concern about how to maintain church discipline in an environment where disgruntled people can just up sticks and join another church - but in modern Britain, I'm not sure if this is worth worrying about. The far greater issue is that people have become inclined to give up altogether. But in a declining market perhaps church leaders become more jealous about the people who are still available....
quote:
Where does unchurched morph into dechurched?
Each FE has to decide what this means, I suppose. In a village where people generally have some sort of fringe contact with the church, via schools or whatever, the approach will be different from a housing estate where most people will be generations away from any meaningful contact or attendance.
Despite the evangelistic aims of FEs, I imagine that most of them draw on people who already see themselves as connected in some way. This is true for Alpha courses, and 'Back to church Sunday' specifically tries to reach out to the de-churched.
The non-churched are the most challenging group for churches to reach, a reality that has geographical and class implications.
(Sociologists have their own definitions for terms such as de-churched, non-churched, churchgoer, etc.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
I had no idea that dechurched existed as a term.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
Incidently, I found this googling "dechurched"
Dechurched link
It answers the question posed upthread.
[edited to fix broken scroll lock - djo]
[ 22. November 2012, 15:31: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Non-Churched: those who have had little contact at all with the church.
Un-churched: those who have never belonged to a church but have limited contact
De-churched: those who have been part of a church but are no longer
While the boundary between non-churched and unchurched is blurred, the De-churched are a distinctly different groups with advantages and disadvantages for outreach activities. the distinction between non-churched and unchurched is really how comfortable they feel in current church culture. A lot of outreach is aimed at the "nearby" un-churched, and fails to address the needs of either the Dechurched or the Nonchurched. We stopped a lot of activity that basically took people from Non-Churched to Un-Churched about fifty years ago and consequently there are fewer in the Unchurched pool.
Jengie
[ 22. November 2012, 14:21: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
The report I linked to does indicate that FE is working for the dechurched as well as the non- and un-churched target group.
I think there's also a spectrum from the thoroughly de-churched to "those in the church who are frustrated by the lack of Charisma/Mystery/Informality/Chanting/WorshipSongs/etc." as Edward put it. I think this is important because there's always a difficult decision to make as to at what point one says "there's a lot that's making things difficult for me, but I can work with it", and "this just isn't working". We, for example, crossed that point with our local church in October. While I think we could have stayed within the church solely with the church in the next parish, we'd still have very much been in the "there's a lot that's making things difficult for me, but I can work with it" camp even there, especially with regard to children's provision, but it's the FE setup which most works for us.
Even if the little Anglo-Catholic in me finds himself picking up crumbs...
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I had no idea that dechurched existed as a term.
Some of the literature around also refers to 'open dechurched' and 'closed dechurched'
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
... I got 27% for the NZ equivalent of O-Levels Latin ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
