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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Advice for a new church pianist?
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A friend who is looking to career change into supporting himself in music took a job as church music director -- playing piano, directing choir and handbells. He had a lot of musical training and has done some directing, but did not grow up in church.
He resigned after only 6 months because the church expected him to select appropriate hymns for each week's readings or sermon theme, and he was unfamiliar with the hymnal and most of the songs. They would tell him the theme Wednesday afternoon, leaving him not enough time to page through the hymnal to figure out hymns and practice to learn them himself before leading choir rehearsal. He felt the deadlines were unreasonably tight, although for someone familiar with the hymnal they were probably normal deadlines.
Seems to me lots of potential church music directors did not grow up in churches, or grew up in a different denomination with different hymns. There must be resources to guide new music directors in hymn selection. Where would one look for those resources? Not just what season of the year, that's in the ordering of the hymnals, but specific themes the sermons will pick up from the readings.
[ 31. December 2012, 13:54: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A friend who is looking to career change into supporting himself in music took a job as church music director -- playing piano, directing choir and handbells. He had a lot of musical training and has done some directing, but did not grow up in church.
He resigned after only 6 months because the church expected him to select appropriate hymns for each week's readings or sermon theme, and he was unfamiliar with the hymnal and most of the songs. They would tell him the theme Wednesday afternoon, leaving him not enough time to page through the hymnal to figure out hymns and practice to learn them himself before leading choir rehearsal. He felt the deadlines were unreasonably tight, although for someone familiar with the hymnal they were probably normal deadlines.
Seems to me lots of potential church music directors did not grow up in churches, or grew up in a different denomination with different hymns. There must be resources to guide new music directors in hymn selection. Where would one look for those resources? Not just what season of the year, that's in the ordering of the hymnals, but specific themes the sermons will pick up from the readings.
Most importantly get him, when the Church agrees to hire him, to talk with the Parish Priest about setting a timetable as part of conditions of work (it can always be revaluated later) so that he has adequate time to accomodate the theme they are likely to preach on.
Although you are USA based the RSCM (Royal Society of Church Music) usually produces a table each year linked to the Anglican Lectionary (although I'm not sure how close they are on both sides of the pond/to other denominations.) Most hymn books I've come across have the hymns thematically/Sunday in the year ordered in the index as well.
[ 31. December 2012, 14:11: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Call the publisher of the hymnbook, as these usually put out a whole host of helping resources too, like a list of suggested hymns by Sunday or by theme. Or get the priest to choose them, he ought to be familiar enough.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
When I was pastor I usually selected the hymns, primarily because our Organist was from another denomination.
A quick way for me was to go to this link to find hymn suggestions.
http://www.lca.org.au/worship/cowadmin/
These suggestions are from Lutheran Hymnals, but I am confident many of the hymns are found in Anglican Hymnals as well.
Here in the states a number of church camps also offer Music Camps/Programs in the summer. Maybe your friend could take advantage of similar programs over there.
There are also a number on online church music courses leading up to a Masters in Church Music. Have your friend google them.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The Episcopal Church in the U.S. has The Episcopal Musician's Handbook based on the three-year Revised Common Lectionary. Our Choir Director, who was not raised as an Episcopalian, makes great use of it. (Even a cradle Episcopalian must have difficulty at times, so this is a great resource.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Hymnsite.com is useful for those who use the United Methodist Hymnal. It can also be useful for those whose hymnals have many of the same hymns as the UMH. It's my first stop every week as I'm figuring out what we're going to sing.
As far as deadlines, that needs to be talked about up front, or at least as soon as a problem becomes apparent.
And LSK, not all of us have the money to spend on an expensive organ. It seems that cheap organs sound terrible, and good ones cost way too much for most small congregations, barring some rich member's contribution. It may not be the best, but it works. I think it's better than using a guitar, for instance. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Piano in a church? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
You prefer guitars? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The days when "everyone" had a organ in their living room are long gone, and music schools aren't churning out organists like they used to. Big city church might get an organist, small town probably not.
But an electronic keyboard has an organ button.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
We have an Organ and a piano. We will also use trumpets, drums, violins, even bagpipes.
Seems to me when the Psalmist penned "Make a joyful noise to the Lord," s/he did not care what type of instrument that was used, as long as it was joyful and to the Lord.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The small congregation that is my default worshipping community has an organ, but no-one to play it and it would drown out the voices of the faithful few. There is a small music group that accompanies hymns on two violins, occasional guitar (when appropriate), very occasional keyboard, and even more occasional harp or other instrument. It works just fine, except that they can't really cope with the standard blockbusters (but nor can the congregation!)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Belle Ringer, if the church follows the Revised Common Lectionary, the this individual would do well to invest in a copy of either:
The Episcopal Musician's Handbook (mentioned above)
or
Sundays and Seasons
They both tend to run in the $35-40 range, and he would have to buy a new copy every year, but it is well worth the purchase at less than $1 per Sunday. One obtains an exhausting list of suitable hymns for each Sunday and festival of the church year. I'm sure a trusted chorister would be happy to help the musician make selections from the list that the congregation would like until a further understanding of the congregation is developed.
Also, check out the Oremus Hymnal online, which provides similar suggestions for the church year. See the links near the bottom of the page.
Some denominations also have Bible verse concordances available for their hymns. From the ELCA Lutheran perspective, I can tell you that Indexes to Evangelical Lutheran Worship (see the sample page at the link) offers not only hymn suggestions for every Sunday and festival of the 3-year RCL cycle, but also a Scripture Index to Service Music and Hymns. Several other Augsburg Fortress products also offer the same index. Of course, those are all keyed to our hymnal, Evangelical Lutheran Worship, but ELW contains many core hymns that are common to the US Mainline experience.
Hymnals of other denominations often offer the same scripture index as well. Even if a new musician plays for a different denomination, there is often enough of a hymn crossover that resources from similar groups are useful.
[ 31. December 2012, 21:51: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
Contract of Employment with the church should set out everyone's expectations.
And, learn to manage the minister. The lectionary will give the readings for the Sunday of the year. The RSCM Sunday by Sunday is a good starting point, and is worth joining the RSCM for.
(I write as a priest and musician married to an organist...not in my church!)
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
A desperate trick: Sometime in the summer, announce that you will take hymn requests from the congregation. This is secretly a quick survey to allow the congregation an opportunity to state their favorites. The frequency of request for a particular hymn should clue you in on the must-haves. We run a bulletin insert for a couple weeks at the beginning of the summer, and people simply write in their requests and drop them anonymously in the offering plate.
In the summer especially, one hymn that goes along with the "theme" of the day is more than adequate. Any more than that is a tad obsessive. One can get away with many general hymns in Ordinary Time.
[ 31. December 2012, 22:05: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I appreciate the suggestions and will pass them on. He has always wanted a music career, and a church job seems to offer a steady even though very low income to build on top of (by giving music lessons or whatever). But obviously there's more to a church music director job than he had realized, the times he's been a substitute director he was handed the music to direct and play.
If the church was used to music directors who know the church game, they didn't know to tell him the things he didn't know to ask.
We all start out ignorant, build on experiences and do better next time! I'm delighted to be able to tel him about resources that can give him confidence to go find another church and try again. He's a really good pianist and decent director, just not used to choosing music for a church.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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ErinBear
Shipmate
# 13173
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Posted
I was a church pianist for a a number of years, and at more than one church. The first suggestion would be to ask the clergy of the church to please choose the hymns for the service. That's appropriate, and within their duties. Some clergy enjoy choosing their own hymns, thankfully, and see it as part of their job. Some ministers/priests really hate that task, and they would prefer somebody else do that task. But it's not fair to ask somebody to do it who has no background in church music. It can be daunting at first, even when you are familiar with church music and you're new to choosing hymns. It gets better, though, with practice and familiarity.
Many hymnals have some helps within the hymnals, giving suggestions according to topic, scripture readings, or season of the church year. That can help somewhat. I also know that various denominations have websites that can provide quite a lot of help for each Sunday, following along the Revised Common Lectionary. Here is one such resource:
http://www.hymnsite.com/lection/
As others have mentioned, there are also books available, and some books may also be already present at the church where your friend ends up working, if he asks. The minister or priest may have some books like that in his/her study which your friend could use, also.
Blessings, and best wishes to your friend,
ErinBear
Posts: 2441 | From: California, USA | Registered: Nov 2007
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Hymnsite.com is useful for those who use the United Methodist Hymnal. It can also be useful for those whose hymnals have many of the same hymns as the UMH. It's my first stop every week as I'm figuring out what we're going to sing.
As far as deadlines, that needs to be talked about up front, or at least as soon as a problem becomes apparent.
And LSK, not all of us have the money to spend on an expensive organ. It seems that cheap organs sound terrible, and good ones cost way too much for most small congregations, barring some rich member's contribution. It may not be the best, but it works. I think it's better than using a guitar, for instance.
I usually use this one (click the "Hymns" tab). It is keyed to the RCL (used by United Methodists) and the United Methodist hymnals and songbooks, but it would be a good starting place for other hymnals.
My practice, when I had a choir director, was to let her choose the hymns from this and a similar resource, and I would choose the sequence hymn just before the Gospel reading. She and I would confer on sermon and worship theme.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
From a Catholic perspective, Newman Hymnal is very helpful.
More generally though, while non-religious musicians can play a role in church music, I don't think it should be in picking songs. I don't see how someone who isn't part of that worshiping community can take that kind of a leadership role in worship. Ideally, music ministers would be true ministers, having undergone not just musical training and theological education but formation. The Masters of Sacred Music is an example of a program along the right lines.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ErinBear:
I was a church pianist for a a number of years, and at more than one church. The first suggestion would be to ask the clergy of the church to please choose the hymns for the service. That's appropriate, and within their duties. Some clergy enjoy choosing their own hymns, thankfully, and see it as part of their job. Some ministers/priests really hate that task, and they would prefer somebody else do that task. But it's not fair to ask somebody to do it who has no background in church music. It can be daunting at first, even when you are familiar with church music and you're new to choosing hymns. It gets better, though, with practice and familiarity.
Your point about it not being fair to ask that all the planning be done by somebody without a solid background in church music is very valid. I hope that you can also see that it would also apply to ministers/priests/pastors who don't have a prior history dealing in church music.
I think that a middle ground is best, where the pastor will meet with the person in charge of the music and outline where the service is going and what they are looking for. The music person then goes away, puts together a suggested program and comes back to get it approved. You get the pastor's direction, but then combined with the more specific knowledge of the music person.
But I also recognise that different approaches will be better in different contexts. Whatever path is chosen, it is important to make sure there is a good role description which includes an outline of the workflow.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
If he does not want to do this then look for one of the British Reformed tradition (Presbyterian, Congregational (e.g. United Church of Christ) and maybe Reformed as well but I am less familiar with those traditions), here hymn selection is firmly placed in the hands of minister.
Jengie
[eta] Warning: it means however that it is quite likely he will get the hymns for the Sunday on Friday evening on a good week, my experience leads me to believe that ministers are notorius for doing things at the last minute.[/eta]
[ 02. January 2013, 12:40: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
We have an Organ and a piano. We will also use trumpets, drums, violins, even bagpipes.
Seems to me when the Psalmist penned "Make a joyful noise to the Lord," s/he did not care what type of instrument that was used, as long as it was joyful and to the Lord.
Even the Psalmist would have drawn the line at Bagpipes IMHO.....
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
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ErinBear
Shipmate
# 13173
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Posted
I hate to say it, but you can't count on ministers in the Reformed tradition necessarily choosing their own hymns either! I worked in Presbyterian churches, as well as some others. About half of the Presbyterian ministers were determined not to choose their own hymns, and wanted nothing to do with it. The other half were happy to do so. It really varies. If you work on a church with multiple clergy on staff, some may be happy to choose their own hymns and some may not! I had that experience also. As others on this thread have said, it really varies by each circumstance, and - pardon the pun - you have to play it by ear.
Blessings,
ErinBear
Posts: 2441 | From: California, USA | Registered: Nov 2007
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
I have a subscription to the liturgy planner from Decani Music. It's very good for future planning and the breakdown of the themes for the mass are very good. The editing is a bit shonky so numbers have to be checked and often I'll pick something not included in it, but it's a good starting point.
I have the advantage, however, of being born into my church, and of having played there since I was 11 (a couple of decades) before ending up with the short straw of music planning. That experience gives me an insight into the musical preferences of all those involved and the capabilities of the congregation and musicians. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to try and do the work, for a choir as well, completely cold.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
For planning in a Catholic Church, Canticanova contains a wealth of liturgical texts from the missal and suggestions for choral music and hymns for Sundays and festivals. I sometimes consult it myself when searching for additional hymn suggestions for a particular occasion.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
There's certainly some beautiful music there (and helpful assembly of texts), but wouldn't that website more accurately be named Canticaveta?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
There's certainly some beautiful music there (and helpful assembly of texts), but wouldn't that website more accurately be named Canticaveta?
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
According to the preface to Tertia Typica in English, "old is sooo the new new."
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Most hymnals with which I'm familiar have an appendix of some sort that suggests certain hymns for specific days, festivals, etc. It's often helpful.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ErinBear:
I hate to say it, but you can't count on ministers in the Reformed tradition necessarily choosing their own hymns either! I worked in Presbyterian churches, as well as some others. About half of the Presbyterian ministers were determined not to choose their own hymns, and wanted nothing to do with it. The other half were happy to do so. It really varies.
In our Baptist/URC church I (as Minister) usually do a "long list" of possible hymns on Monday or Tuesday. This goes to our organist byemail: he comments, tells me the ones he can't stand, and suggests others. By such a back-and-forth process we arrive at a consensus by Thursday (the target date when the Notice-sheet gets finalised).
It usually works fine although we have very different musical tastes!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I find it strange that a person with no history of church participation would think they could take a job which involved liturgical skills and knowledge. Most jobs require some basic knowledge of what the work involves eg a person would not take a job as a teacher of a foreign language unless they had some knowledge of the language. I'm surprised that this musician got the job as a church musician and can only think that thoses who employed him were ignorant of his lack of experience.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
We have had an unchurched person as our director of music and organist. It worked fairly well, but we were conscious of his need for assistance and happy to provide it on the few occasions it was requested. He didn't have to choose hymns. He did choose his prelude, offertory, communion work, and postlude. He did so skillfully, clearly drawing upon resources--probably the catalogs from publishing companies--to do so.
I checked my copy of the organist edition of Hymnal 1982, and the Service Music volume does indeed have a section in the back called something like Resources for Service planning. There is a handy index that contains hymn suggestions for most Sundays of the church year in which specific requests are warranted, and there is also a scriptural index, wherein you can look up something like John 1:1-18 and it will tell you whether there is a hymn (or several) that go along with the passage. There is also a thematic index as well, as in most hymnals.
I'll have to dig out my resources from other denoms as well sometime, to see what they offer.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
The pew editions of the United Methodist Hymnal and the Presbyterian Hymnal both have scriptural and thematic indexes.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find it strange that a person with no history of church participation would think they could take a job which involved liturgical skills and knowledge. Most jobs require some basic knowledge of what the work involves eg a person would not take a job as a teacher of a foreign language unless they had some knowledge of the language. I'm surprised that this musician got the job as a church musician and can only think that thoses who employed him were ignorant of his lack of experience.
The pianist had done seasonal church work before and enjoyed it, but in those seasons he was handed the music selections and just had to do train the choir.
Meanwhile, I guess the church just assumed selecting hymns is what music directors do, and that an hour or two of lead time as to the sermon theme is enough.
There may have been more tension involved in the job than just who selects what hymns with how much notice. Like in so many churches, factions demand different music styles. "All old hymnal"; "none of the old stuff." They are now on their 4th music director in 3 or 4 years (plus interim directing by music majors in the choir), each criticized for "the wrong music" whether the music was modern, old, or a mixture. I think that church hasn't decided what sort of music it wants and the bullets get aimed at the music director.
Some of you probably have similar war stories.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Like in so many churches, factions demand different music styles. "All old hymnal"; "none of the old stuff." They are now on their 4th music director in 3 or 4 years (plus interim directing by music majors in the choir), each criticized for "the wrong music" whether the music was modern, old, or a mixture. I think that church hasn't decided what sort of music it wants and the bullets get aimed at the music director.
Some of you probably have similar war stories.
Congregations are never going to be entirely happy so a supportive priest is absolutely essential. How is the MD to know they're picking the wrong music without guidance well before the point of firing them.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Like in so many churches, factions demand different music styles. "All old hymnal"; "none of the old stuff." ...
Some of you probably have similar war stories.
Congregations are never going to be entirely happy so a supportive priest is absolutely essential.
LOL, you are reminding me, back in the childhood church the music director was regularly criticized for the wrong hymns, and that's before the music wars! People want their old favorites, but don't want to hear the ones they are tired of even though those are someone else's old favorites.
I'm listening to the conversation not just for my friend, who is good enough to be a music pro and has directing instruction and experience, but for me poor pianist that I am, because I said to piano instructor "maybe in 6 months I'll be good enough that some church will be so desperate they'll want even me" to which he responded "a student worse than you is playing in a Lutheran church." Maybe in spring I'll go find a praise band that would like someone comping on piano.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Like in so many churches, factions demand different music styles. "All old hymnal"; "none of the old stuff." They are now on their 4th music director in 3 or 4 years (plus interim directing by music majors in the choir), each criticized for "the wrong music" whether the music was modern, old, or a mixture. I think that church hasn't decided what sort of music it wants and the bullets get aimed at the music director.
9 words to solve the problem: Worship Committee Meeting Monday at 7. All are welcome.
Nobody will show up.
When hassled about hymn selection, reply, "Oh, I can really use you on the committee. What is a good time for you to meet?"
People will learn quickly not to hassle you.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Like in so many churches, factions demand different music styles.
9 words to solve the problem: Worship Committee Meeting Monday at 7. All are welcome.
Nobody will show up.
When hassled about hymn selection, reply, "Oh, I can really use you on the committee. What is a good time for you to meet?"
People will learn quickly not to hassle you.
I KNEW there have to be some "tricks of the trade"!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
9 words to solve the problem: Worship Committee Meeting Monday at 7. All are welcome.
Nobody will show up.
When hassled about hymn selection, reply, "Oh, I can really use you on the committee. What is a good time for you to meet?"
People will learn quickly not to hassle you.
Brilliant. And so true for church life: e.g., if you replace "Worship Committee" and "hymn selection" with "Children's Ministries" it works just the same!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find it strange that a person with no history of church participation would think they could take a job which involved liturgical skills and knowledge. Most jobs require some basic knowledge of what the work involves eg a person would not take a job as a teacher of a foreign language unless they had some knowledge of the language. I'm surprised that this musician got the job as a church musician and can only think that thoses who employed him were ignorant of his lack of experience.
Here in UK a church is lucky if they can find a short list of more than one - organists are like gold-dust. Some churches hire a student organist from a London training college - who may or may not have experience of church.
I sometimes play at Mrs Wuntoo's church - simply because they needed someone (horrible clavinova but can't help that). It seems to make no difference to them that I am a non-believer (although with 60 years in the church).
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find it strange that a person with no history of church participation would think they could take a job which involved liturgical skills and knowledge. Most jobs require some basic knowledge of what the work involves eg a person would not take a job as a teacher of a foreign language unless they had some knowledge of the language. I'm surprised that this musician got the job as a church musician and can only think that those who employed him were ignorant of his lack of experience.
I agree. I find it odd that a person is surprised to find they can't be an effective church musician if they aren't in sympathy with what that particular church does, and don't know anything about the subculture. If he thought, 'well I'm a musician; so it's their fault that I made a hash of it', would he think a teacher of English Literature can say, 'well I'm a qualified teacher; so I must be able to teach A level Russian'?
I'd also wonder if he concealed his ignorance because he thought that if he didn't talk himself up, he might not get the job.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
I tend to agree, although if this church has gone through several short appointments in the past few years, it sounds as if the church may also be having difficulty making clear their expectations, and/or having a realistic set of expectations, and/or supporting their musicians. Or perhaps they are very clear in their expectations, but are just an awful place to work.
The church I grew up in had an incredibly detailed organist position posting several years ago, and I believe this is the posting that resulted in the hiring of the current organist, who has been there for several years, after a series of one-year organists. I posted it for comments here, and most people thought it was way over-detailed and even obnoxious and presumptuous in what it laid out as the organist's responsibilities. I tend to think it was the result of the church evaluating what had caused all the one-year organists to fail (whether that be the church's fault or the organist's fault or both), and get very very very clear about what they wanted, so there wouldn't be misunderstandings later. They seem to have someone now who is able to meet their expectations.
Another source for information about being a church music director, including the political aspects as well as simply "how to choose hymns" is the choralist forums. You can search their archives, as well as of course joining and posting. I think they used to also have a compendium of collected posts about many frequently-raised subjects; I can't find that now but if you post there you could ask about that too.
I think in taking an unfamiliar job, no matter one's underlying technical skills, it is useful to inform oneself in advance as much as possible about the issues that might face one. This research is ideally done even before interviewing, so that you can make sensible inquiries about the position -- and even before applying, so that you can shape your application sensibly. There's a lot more to making a living as a musician, in any setting, than simply being able to play one's instrument.
Belle Ringer, I think one thing to think of as you contemplate becoming a church musician, is what are you going to do when your ideas for things the church should be doing, are ignored? The church may want to hire a musician (or have a volunteer musician), not a change agent. Can you live with that?
What are you going to do when you find sitting through the services is deadening to your sense of God? Or do you think that being in a praise band will change your usual experience of organized church?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find it strange that a person with no history of church participation would think they could take a job which involved liturgical skills and knowledge...I'm surprised that this musician got the job as a church musician and can only think that those who employed him were ignorant of his lack of experience.
I agree. I find it odd that a person is surprised to find they can't be an effective church musician if they aren't in sympathy with what that particular church does, and don't know anything about the subculture...I'd also wonder if he concealed his ignorance because he thought that if he didn't talk himself up, he might not get the job.
I find it odd that some of you are assuming deceit! (And apparently some of you missed that he did have seasonal experience directing a church choir. This wasn't some dude who never set foot in a church before!)
Some of you must be from places where churches have a lot of choices? Few people around here play keyboard anymore. Only one other person applied for the job.
Music director must be available Wednesday daytimes for staff meetings. That means it has to be someone independently wealthy (retired) since the church job pays less than rent and the Wednesday requirement blocks anyone with a real job from applying.
Must play keyboard both as soloist for preludes and postludes as accompanist the choir, direct choir, direct handbells, help with kiddie choir, attend Wednesday staff meetings. For $12 per hour. ("Half time" job, $1000 per month, I put half time in quotes because all those rehearsals means about 3 hours left over to select and practice preludes postludes hymns kiddie music handbell music.) NO extra pay for playing funerals, and must be available whenever anyone schedules a funeral.
He did full disclosure of his background, they auditioned him and were thrilled to get such a fine musician. They did not do full disclosure of what they expected of him. He's the one who quit. (He got them past Easter and into the quieter summer season, them quit with ample notice because they just plain wanted too much.)
I have no idea if $12 per hour part time with hours that prevent holding a full time job anywhere, is normal. It can only be a retiree. Are all church music directors retirees? Big churches can afford someone full time, smaller churches can't, but expecting too much may be why this church is on their 4th director in 4 years.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
Since this musician was trying to make a living as a musician, presumably that means he would be able to take a position requiring daytime meetings.
Another possibility for a person who could be able to take such a position is a private music teacher. Another possibility is someone who has flexibility at work to rearrange their working hours. Another possibility is for a person with another job that precludes attendance at the weekly daytime meetings, to negotiate in advance for a different way to exchange the required information.
Most part-time jobs are not necessarily arranged around the availability of someone with an already existing full-time job. C'est la vie.
I take your point that the church may have expectations that don't match the reality of what they can have. Or maybe they prefer to keep their expectations, and work with a revolving-door of musicians.
One problem can be that some people are very very very bad at analyzing things in advance and figuring out what their expectations are. So a church may be proceeding in all innocence, thinking that "it's obvious what a church musician should do" and not be able to connect the dots. A clued-up job applicant can help themselves by inquiring about these issues before accepting the job. It won't protect against the church that keeps changing the requirements as time goes on, or a church without supportive clergy, but it can help in some cases lead to a better outcome for both sides.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I have no idea if $12 per hour part time with hours that prevent holding a full time job anywhere, is normal. It can only be a retiree. Are all church music directors retirees? Big churches can afford someone full time, smaller churches can't, but expecting too much may be why this church is on their 4th director in 4 years.
Frankly, Belle, the demands of the job seem a bit unrealistic in what is essentially a "musician's market." It's sort of like For Sale By Owner homes that are priced ridiculously high for the market.
The church could easily advertise it as "the ideal candidate will..," giving latitude for hiring outside of their preferences.
The morning meeting sounds useless to the musician. Requiring its attendance is undoubtedly harming the church's search process. They could offer the meeting attendance as an additional money-making opportunity, but if the musician can't make it, then so be it.
For funerals and weddings, we keep a list of local musicians. If the regular isn't available (common, as our regulars have day jobs elsewhere), then we call up the Methodist organist, or the Presbyterian, or the Catholics, who have about half a dozen pianists working for them. Most of them are quite willing to make a little extra money, if available.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Belle Ringer, I think one thing to think of as you contemplate becoming a church musician, is what are you going to do when your ideas for things the church should be doing, are ignored? The church may want to hire a musician (or have a volunteer musician), not a change agent.
Doing music in church has always been an awesome spiritual experience for me; sitting passively as church insist of mere members is anti-spiritual. Having a function (in church or anywhere else) is what makes the event interesting.
I've been invited to join a praise band. I've been begged to design and lead the music program at VBS. We'll see.
(No idea what your comment about "change agent" means. Churches are what they are because that's exactly how the dominant people want it.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
That is very exciting then, to have someone wanting you to contribute your musical talents, which gives you joy.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(No idea what your comment about "change agent" means. Churches are what they are because that's exactly how the dominant people want it.)
The church musician is not necessarily a dominant person in the church. One single member of a praise band is not necessarily a dominant person in the praise band. You seem to be someone who has many ideas of how to do things differently than the churches you go to generally do them, and I was asking whether it would be a problem for you to be asked to do one particular thing, but potentially have your ideas disregarded for how to do things differently.
It is possible for a church to ask someone to be in charge of something -- e.g. VBS music -- but actually to have a bunch of expectations about the results, and to be unhappy if something significantly different is provided. We had a situation at my church for several years where on the one hand the church said they wanted someone in charge of all the youth Christian education (0-18), but in fact was perpetually micromanaging what she did, not respecting her decisions, and asking too much of her (this took place across 3 Christian Ed directors; the current Christian Ed director is faced with the same challenges but has learned from all her predecessors and works hard to keep beating back the unreasonable things the church keeps doing and asking -- actually I think in this case not the church in general so much, as the rector in particular). All of these are women who brought great gifts to the job, but all of whom had to deal with the personality of the rector.
So I hope that the position turns out marvelously, and you are able to give your musical gifts to the church and create a program the way you think it should be. However, I think that life is not solely so perfect, and given that you often write about the disappointing things the churches you are involved with are doing (or the good things they are not doing), and the many times when you have not been able to effect change, I wonder if you are prepared to work in those constrained circumstances, should they arise.
[ 09. January 2013, 00:08: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942
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Posted
AR - totally agree. It's one thing to ask who's in charge, and a completely different thing to ask who's really in charge.
BR - if I were in your situation, I would be avoiding glibly throwing around statements like "Churches are what they are because that's exactly how the dominant people want it" if you're attempting to get involved in a mid-level leadership position. If you look back at your posting history here, it seems that by now you should have learned the lesson that when you try to act as that dominant person without having built up the history to put you in that position, you will come up against the bigger fish and you will lose.
Being the leader of a ministry area such as music is not a power position, it's a servant leadership position where your responsibility is to deliver the "product" that is desired by the pastor/minister/priest/preacher or whoever else is up the chain of command. So long as you do your job well, you'll have a certain amount of freedom to make suggestions of how things may be done differently or improved, but with the ultimate decision resting in their hands. If they still prefer their original decision over your suggest, the appropriate response is to accept their decision and work hard to make sure it is followed through and executed well.
My main role at the church I'm involved with currently is as the youth community's multimedia coordinator which means I oversee the team who make or source videos for use during worship, produce promotional spots, and to recording/producing videos of sermons for distribution online. I work directly with the pastor in general, and we have a good relationship where he knows he can expect me to make an alternative suggestion when he asks for something, and he knows my work well enough to know it's worth considering. He also knows that if he does still prefer his original concept then he can direct me to do that and I will put in every effort to do a top job on it so that the end result is good regardless of who had the original idea.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Piano in a church?
We have a notable (Episcopal) parish music program. We have four pianos, including a grand piano in the nave. All in tune. Not sure why you're going overboard on the smileys here. It's not at all unusual. Pianos are easier for congregations to maintain, and to find players for.
In her interview, our now-rector told us about her rural parish suffering without an organist ... nobody wanted to travel the 45 minutes out of the metro area to them ... until someone got the idea to change the job description to "piano and/or organ". Then they got someone who had studied piano at conservatory in Russia who had just arrived in the US. This person learned both English and the organ (funded in at least part by the parish) and stayed there a long time for not much money because they were willing to work with her. (This was actually told as an example of "pray for a solution".)
In re the OP, from what's written on the thread, the congregation will probably "churn and burn" until someone negotiates better terms with them. When I was job hunting in another field I mentally added "and we want a pony" to such lofty job descriptions(especially those that were lower-wage).
As a couple of data points, the part-time choir director at my church in high school had a full time job teaching school so I am sure that she did not attend weekly staff meetings. TFBG does have other jobs (as most working musicians do) but his schedule does allow him to be at the staff meeting.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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