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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: vicar shopping - funeral
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Let me get this right: the vicar did visit her when she was in the hospital? The vicar also gave her Last Rites? He even skipped a service at the church to be with her? (It is not all that unusual for a vicar to be able to make arrangements for someone to take care of a service, is it?)
Seems to me he has some legitimacy in wanting to complete what he has been called to do, to serve his parishioner and/or her family.
I say time to just get it over with. Allow the vicar to do it and move on.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
... it looks to me as if there has been what one might call a feud within the church.
One party to the feud has left and is attending church elsewhere.
Yes it does rather have all the hallmarks of that doesn't it? "My understanding ... reports of lateness ... inappropriate comments in sermons .... refusing communion".
JJ actually doesn't seem to know on his own admission and is relying on the evidence and reports of others which might be the truth from where they are standing but not the whole truth. It might - just - be skewed.
As to lateness, well it's pretty endemic these days in every walk of life. Show me a church where everyone is always "in" at the start of a service. I know I am anal in the other direction to the point of near obsession on time keeping but even I accept that lateness happens - and some people are just predisposed to it or plain disorganised.
It may be that the vicar is covering more than one thing in more than one parish. He may not be a good time keeper anyway and yes, that needs work but there are times when the needs of a person are greater at one moment than taking a service. It's happened to me but I managed to get a sub to lead the first part.
Inappropriate comments? Are we talking personal matters discussed from the pulpit or a different approach from an old and much loved vicar? I've known friends get this kind of response when they have, for example preached on sin and forgiveness in a church where that had not been heard for many a year, perhaps in living memory. I'm not saying that's the answer exactly but one person's inappropriate is another's challenge to change.
Refusing communion. Well, do we know that for a fact? In the CofE as I understand it, it has to be authorised by the bishop and very very few clergy will take that kind of runner on their own. [I can only think of a 2 or 3 cases where it has happened in baptist churches - and we/they are probably more inclined to this kind of discipline. I've done it once myself but that's another story].
Is this a rumour or fact? What's the evidence - the word of someone who has issues? Surely other church leaders (PCC) would be aware: even if it was fact, what generated it in the first place.
I just feel (as someone who has acted in conflict resolution and as a mediator across denominations) that there's a lot more here than meets the eye. A fair bit of what is reported is very familiar territory to anyone who has done any amount of mediation work in churches.
Simply using another celebrant perpetuates and doesn't solve the problem, bringing mnay more people into the loop of issues they know little about. There's a danger here that some of the suggestions will build "sides" that use the funeral service for their own ends and not for the grieving family's needs.
If the "substitution" does happen, it will provide lots more ammunition for those who have left. A chorus of "told you so's" and "isn't it nice that the Archdeacon is helping us and that nice Vicar from St Whatits is helping us too."
It does seem like that there is some backgroud pressure from those who've left, not to use the Vicar, and JJ is caught in the crossfire.
I have every sympathy with you JJ - I lost my mum a couple of years ago and it's hard enough without this kind of stuff. My mum was not a churchgoer yet the service was warm and helpful and all we (and she) would have wanted. I was encouraged to preach and it felt not like them and us - but a family.
But - I do think this is an opportunity to bring healing to troubled waters.
[ 12. January 2013, 09:23: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I did wonder reading the OP wether the priest is aware of the dislike to which the grandmother held him.
When he visited he was denied access because she was 'aleep' or other such reasons. He may have been a bit slow to catch on but was he ever told that he was not wanted by her.
I was also very sad that she denied herself spiritual sustenance because of her dislike of one priest
Nothing to do with the OP, of course; but this has been my experience. A parishioner stopped coming to church, offended at something she believed I had done. When I eventually found this out, by persisting with her (she kept putting me off) I was able to prove to her, to some extent, she was quite mistaken. She then decided she preferred to listen to the church on the radio anyway and it wasn't entirely down to me that she stayed away, so no big deal. But by then, naturally, the damage (to my reputation) had been done.
The bemusing thing about this is that she kept describing herself as a 'straightforward, no-nonsense' type of person to me. To me, being straightforward is sorting out a problem, when it has become a problem, not waiting nearly a year later, after you've been bad-mouthing someone who isn't even aware of their crime! And even then only because you've been pressed to confront the issue.
Her first question when I asked her what was wrong was 'Don't you know?' You know it's going to be downhill after that! I'm used to praying for patience and wisdom - but apparently I should also be praying for psychic abilities too ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) !
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I did wonder reading the OP wether the priest is aware of the dislike to which the grandmother held him.
When he visited he was denied access because she was 'aleep' or other such reasons. He may have been a bit slow to catch on but was he ever told that he was not wanted by her.
I was also very sad that she denied herself spiritual sustenance because of her dislike of one priest
Nothing to do with the OP, of course; but this has been my experience. A parishioner stopped coming to church, offended at something she believed I had done. When I eventually found this out, by persisting with her (she kept putting me off) I was able to prove to her, to some extent, she was quite mistaken. She then decided she preferred to listen to the church on the radio anyway and it wasn't entirely down to me that she stayed away, so no big deal. But by then, naturally, the damage (to my reputation) had been done.
The bemusing thing about this is that she kept describing herself as a 'straightforward, no-nonsense' type of person to me. To me, being straightforward is sorting out a problem, when it has become a problem, not waiting nearly a year later, after you've been bad-mouthing someone who isn't even aware of their crime! And even then only because you've been pressed to confront the issue.
Her first question when I asked her what was wrong was 'Don't you know?' You know it's going to be downhill after that! I'm used to praying for patience and wisdom - but apparently I should also be praying for psychic abilities too !
You do not have to be psychic - I have discovered that you only need to be on facebook, where you will find your parishoners raking muck like it is going out of fashon. It does mean that you more quickly find out when there is a problem, but it does not make it any easier to resolve.
Back to the OP - it occurs to me that a helpful approach would be for those arranging the funeral to ask themselves if they personally have anything against the priest in question. The Deceased was obviously very angry and unforgiving, however as has been pointed out the priest had done all he could to keep the option of reconcilliation open, to avail the Deceased of the ministry of the Church and to fulfil his duties. I really do not understand why the family need to take the Deceased's unforgiveness as their own starting point for a relationship with the priest.
Next week I will be doing a funeral for a lady who used to attend the church where I work, but the church has not had any contact with her in the 2 years I have been here. It turns out that due to her frailty she had difficulties getting to church on her own, although there are systems in the parish to help people in her situation, something obviously did not work out and the parish fell out of touch with her.
When I spoke the family about this, their approach was to say that they had told her to contact the church but she replied "I should not have to". As a result, she spent the last 4 years of her life estranged from the church. However the family recognised that did not have to be their own starting point for a relationship with me, and hopefully we will have a funeral that will allow for a cerain amount of healing to take place.
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It's more important to be kind than to be right.
Posts: 1156 | From: Southampton | Registered: May 2004
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JJSchmidt
Shipmate
# 16864
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Posted
I just spoke to my parents.
They (or my specifically, my mother, who is the deceased's daughter) have decided that because of the strength of my grandmother's feelings, allowing him to conduct the service is out of the question.
So they are holding the service at the crematorium. The vicar who will conduct the service was involved with her at the Mothers Union so he is a justified choice, and not just a random vicar off a list.
With respect to the vicar of the parish, there are various things that are a matter of public record in terms of insensitivity/oddness, that have appeared on websites and in newspapers and online and which I found by googling. that make it clear to me that he has, as I said, low 'emotional intelligence'. I could post these links here but they would identify him and I don't think that that would be productive.
I think you could say that her dislike of him was a little excessive, not hatred, she just thought he was useless and she didn't have respect for ineffective people. Despite that, he's obviously refused the request for an alternate to conduct the service, so I would say that while my personal opinion might, in her shoes, have been nothing stronger 'X is not a very good vicar', it's my assessment that that opinion is justified.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
You do not have to be psychic - I have discovered that you only need to be on facebook, where you will find your parishoners raking muck like it is going out of fashon. It does mean that you more quickly find out when there is a problem, but it does not make it any easier to resolve.
Thank you. I am on facebook. The person in question and I suppose her associates were not. And I know there were no hints on facebook or otherwise what my sin had been! Not even a 'concerned' parishioner whispering in my ear.
I find that while there's a lot that's pretty objectionable at times on it, my facebook feed is pretty free of muck-raking in terms of what I'd call gossip or malicious speculation - if you don't count political and international situations. I also only have a very small number of parishioners as 'friends' (maybe less than a dozen) and none of them appears to muck-rake, unless they do it by Private Message.
I have a feeling that the muck-rakers tend to enjoy the more traditional methods of spreading their ideas about!
Anyway, I believe that speaking directly to a person, at the time the problem arises, is probably the best and fastest way to solve that problem (if at all) rather than waiting till it gets round the grapevine - if it ever does. That's my definition of being 'straightforward' at any rate.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
JJSchmidt, so he did refuse to allow another clergyperson to officiate in the church? Very strange and unpastoral indeed. But many clergy are, sadly. Your family seems to have come up with the best solution, then.
I hope your grandmother's funeral goes well and you're all able to look back upon it knowing all was done as well as possible. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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JJSchmidt
Shipmate
# 16864
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Posted
My grandmother's funeral was today (or yesterday now).
Unfortunately I see that the vicar has taken it upon himself to put his name in the local newspaper spouting absolute bollocks about her (not disparaging or rude, just completely incorrect), which would be hurtful if he wasn't held in such contempt.
I don't understand why he didn't get the message, the funeral was not held in his church, so what the hell is he doing a rentaquote for the newspaper talking ill-informed rubbish when he wasn't wanted?
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
The local paper undoubtedly approached him, and he said what he knew, or what he thought he knew. You can hardly expect him to have said, 'I wasn't wanted. The deceased and her friends held me in contempt. I can say nothing.' Had he said, 'No comment,' that would have been published too.
Your grandmother would be proud of you.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JJSchmidt:
I don't understand why he didn't get the message,
Perhaps because no one ever actually told him ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I doubt he went to the press, much more likely they came to him. The press often contact vicars first for local knowledge.
If he had dissembled or declined to speak in any way who knows what the press would have said or thought about your grandmother. What did you want him to do?
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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JJSchmidt
Shipmate
# 16864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The local paper undoubtedly approached him,
No, he undoubtedly approached the local paper.
quote:
and he said what he knew, or what he thought he knew. You can hardly expect him to have said, 'I wasn't wanted. The deceased and her friends held me in contempt. I can say nothing.' Had he said, 'No comment,' that would have been published too.
It's just a human interest story in a local paper, they wouldn't publish something if there was nothing said.
He shouldn't make things up in any case.
quote:
Your grandmother would be proud of you.
Ok?
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Why 'undoubtedly'? That's not the way these things usually work.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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JJSchmidt
Shipmate
# 16864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Why 'undoubtedly'? That's not the way these things usually work.
Because the article is centred on his quotes, and from the errors of fact in the rest of the article it's apparent that he was the source, and the article essentially defines her as a devoted churchgoer, which is a narrow view of her life, obviously from the perspective of the vicar.
In any case that's what he does, he likes to record things about the dying - apparently he upset another parishioner whose husband was dying, by insisting on staying and questioning him when she was saying 'Look, he's very tired, I think you should go', and he said, basically, 'I'm speaking to him, go away'.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jan 2012
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Now that the funeral has taken place, this thread is debating a pastoral situation which is outside the remit of Ecclesiantics. I am therefore going to close it.
JJSchmidt: Please accept the condolences of all the hosts on the death of your grandmother. We hope that you and your family will know some comfort in these days.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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