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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anglican use of Roman Rite
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Swick
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# 8773
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Posted
I must admit that I find the whole idea of Anglo-papalism to be bizzare. If an Anglican sincerely believes that one needs to be in full commmunion with the Bishop of Rome and all that his church teaches, then one should either join the Ordinariate or become a mainstream Roman Catholic.
That said, I find nothing wrong with praying for either the pope or some other Christian leader. I've been at services where, in addition to praying for our (Episcopalian) Presiding Bishop, we also pray for the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Pope, the Ecumemical Patriarch, and the Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
Hasn't the pre-Reformation Roman Canon largely been translated into English in the Anglican/American/English Missal, though?
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Swick:
I must admit that I find the whole idea of Anglo-papalism to be bizzare. If an Anglican sincerely believes that one needs to be in full commmunion with the Bishop of Rome and all that his church teaches, then one should either join the Ordinariate or become a mainstream Roman Catholic.
*snip*
While I tend to agree with Swick on the oddness of Anglo-papalism, it is perhaps a bit more that they wish to receive the liturgical direction of the Patriarchate of the West, while unable to agree on a series of theological and spiritual practices and disciplines. Obviously, if they are on board with them, then Tiber-crossing is really the only logical move. Some say that they are a package, but it seems the anglo-papalists disagree.
Another factor supporting illogicality is that, for many lay-people, there is a strong attachment to their parish community and, in a way difficult for many to understand, to a particular altar and building. The exact colour of the flag or whatever name comes up in the diptychs is not necessarily that important to them.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Hasn't the pre-Reformation Roman Canon largely been translated into English in the Anglican/American/English Missal, though?
Yes, but none of those is authorised in the Canons of the CofE either.
(ETA: my mistake - I think it was the Tridentine Canon in the English Missal. I'm not aware of anywhere in the CofE that uses a pre-Reformation rite.)
[ 24. January 2013, 16:16: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
Cigarette paper: Meet pre- and post-Tridentine Roman Canons...
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Hasn't the pre-Reformation Roman Canon largely been translated into English in the Anglican/American/English Missal, though?
Some editions of the American Missal (notably the recent revision by Lancelot Andrewes Press) include it, but the edition I have (1950s, by the SSJE) does not.
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Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Both the English Missal and the Anglican Missal in the American edition include the so-called Miles Coverdale translation of the Roman Canon (curiously called the Gregorian Canon--odd, not because one doubts the involvement of Pope St. Gregory the Great in its origin, but because the piece is so well-known by its name, Roman Canon).
As for Anglo-Papalism, here is an excellent study of the phenomenon.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Swick:
I must admit that I find the whole idea of Anglo-papalism to be bizzare. If an Anglican sincerely believes that one needs to be in full commmunion with the Bishop of Rome and all that his church teaches, then one should either join the Ordinariate or become a mainstream Roman Catholic.
That said, I find nothing wrong with praying for either the pope or some other Christian leader. I've been at services where, in addition to praying for our (Episcopalian) Presiding Bishop, we also pray for the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
It is an interesting reflection to wonder whether we are imprisoned by our history.
The fact that some Christians find themselves in a church that was cut off from the catholic church for reasons that initially were nothing to do with religion at all is a "brute fact". Is changing to another denomination that has less history in England (Catholic emancipation was in the early nineteen century) and for much of its time was concerned with ministering to non-English populations in England (hence the jibe "The Italian Mission to the Irish") the right thing to do? Or should each Christian try to be as faithful as they can where they find themselves?
To be honest, I don't see which translation of the missal you used being very high on the agenda when the last trump is sounded. The faith of the Anglo-papalists should be judged by its fruits (e.g Matt 25:31ff)
Posts: 108 | Registered: Aug 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Swick:
I must admit that I find the whole idea of Anglo-papalism to be bizzare. If an Anglican sincerely believes that one needs to be in full commmunion with the Bishop of Rome and all that his church teaches, then one should either join the Ordinariate or become a mainstream Roman Catholic.
Or stay within the C of E and work for that day when the whole will cross the Tiber - that has always been the view of the Catholic League.
It is also the view of GSS, which also regards those who cross alone as traitors.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Swick:
I must admit that I find the whole idea of Anglo-papalism to be bizzare. If an Anglican sincerely believes that one needs to be in full commmunion with the Bishop of Rome and all that his church teaches, then one should either join the Ordinariate or become a mainstream Roman Catholic.
Or stay within the C of E and work for that day when the whole will cross the Tiber - that has always been the view of the Catholic League.
It is also the view of GSS, which also regards those who cross alone as traitors.
I belong to both CL and GSS. I never regarded dual membership in this way to be a contradiction of conviction. What I do know is, that crossing the Tiber would mean forfeiting GSS membership.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is also the view of GSS, which also regards those who cross alone as traitors.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
After all, catholic faith says we are saved as corporate, not as individuals.
Yet another reason why I feel I've come home!
quote:
Or stay within the C of E and work for that day when the whole will cross the Tiber - that has always been the view of the Catholic League.
I've been a member of the CL for the last 10 years, and when that objective seemed realistic, I was most enthusiastic about it. But from the League's website:
quote:
It was founded by Anglicans who believed passionately that the future of their Church lay in the reunion of all Christians in a common Catholic and Apostolic faith in restored full communion with the Successor of Peter in the see of Rome.
Two things have changed beyond recognition. There is now no realistic hope of corporate reunion and, knowing that, the Holy Father has taken the intiative in erecting personal Ordinariates, so that corporate reunion is possible for groups who seek it. I couldn't have carried on in the C of E hoping for the impossible. Especially if certain bishops wanted to force me to use, what I consider to be apalling, theologically flawed liturgies.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Growing up in ECUSA as an advanced Anglo-Catholic, I earnestly prayed for reunion with Rome. When I was in high school, I was exposed to the Anglo-Papalist movement and fairly quickly moved into that, even though my fellow parishioners were not generally not interested in it. (Needless to say, the AP movement does not have the same presence in the US that it does in the UK.)
By the end of my freshman year in college, I had pondered the questions that had come to my mind regarding the authority of the Church, especially the councils and the popes. I read Newman and took his words to heart, crossing the Tiber within months. (Old time APs would say that I "made my submission.") I was influenced by Chesterton, Manning, Caswall, Benson and Hopkins. It was several more yeaars before I truly reflected on the APs from the RC perspective.
At that point, and now--decades later---I could say that I have great difficulty understanding why APs remain within the Anglican Communion. I grew up Anglo-Catholic, and was barely more than briefly an Anglo-Papalist myself. I understand the sensibilities of APs, I believe, even among Englishmen--at least as much as a Yank can undestand that. But intellectually, I have never been able to grasp the reasons for staying, if one truly believes in the papacy as Roman Catholics do. This is not a criticism, only a warm and friendly expression of my humble perpspective. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Divine Praises
Apprentice
# 11955
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Growing up in ECUSA as an advanced Anglo-Catholic, I earnestly prayed for reunion with Rome. When I was in high school, I was exposed to the Anglo-Papalist movement and fairly quickly moved into that, even though my fellow parishioners were not generally not interested in it. (Needless to say, the AP movement does not have the same presence in the US that it does in the UK.)
By the end of my freshman year in college, I had pondered the questions that had come to my mind regarding the authority of the Church, especially the councils and the popes. I read Newman and took his words to heart, crossing the Tiber within months. (Old time APs would say that I "made my submission.") I was influenced by Chesterton, Manning, Caswall, Benson and Hopkins. It was several more yeaars before I truly reflected on the APs from the RC perspective.
At that point, and now--decades later---I could say that I have great difficulty understanding why APs remain within the Anglican Communion. I grew up Anglo-Catholic, and was barely more than briefly an Anglo-Papalist myself. I understand the sensibilities of APs, I believe, even among Englishmen--at least as much as a Yank can undestand that. But intellectually, I have never been able to grasp the reasons for staying, if one truly believes in the papacy as Roman Catholics do. This is not a criticism, only a warm and friendly expression of my humble perpspective.
[ 24. January 2013, 21:34: Message edited by: Divine Praises ]
Posts: 18 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Divine Praises
Apprentice
# 11955
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Posted
Oh Lord, I just wrote a long reply to Ceremoniar's post and I haven't a clue what happened to it. Too late to rewrite it now but I'll have a go tomorrow.
Posts: 18 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
At that point, and now--decades later---I could say that I have great difficulty understanding why APs remain within the Anglican Communion. I grew up Anglo-Catholic, and was barely more than briefly an Anglo-Papalist myself. I understand the sensibilities of APs, I believe, even among Englishmen--at least as much as a Yank can undestand that. But intellectually, I have never been able to grasp the reasons for staying, if one truly believes in the papacy as Roman Catholics do. This is not a criticism, only a warm and friendly expression of my humble perpspective.
Anglo-papalism only makes the limited sense it does in an English context, where they have been able to claim that the C of E is the historic Catholic church of the land, unfortunately separated from Rome through no fault of present-day Anglicans. It surely makes no sense at all in the USA, where the Episcopal Church makes no such claim.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
Is changing to another denomination that has less history in England (Catholic emancipation was in the early nineteen century) and for much of its time was concerned with ministering to non-English populations in England (hence the jibe "The Italian Mission to the Irish") the right thing to do? Or should each Christian try to be as faithful as they can where they find themselves?
What very peculiar notions you have of history. Furthermore, what an Erastian view of history!
The Church doesn't exist simply from the moment the state tolerates it.
I wonder what you make of the Recusants and those who kept faithfully to the Catholic Church, despite the persecution by the state. Do you simply airbrush them from the picture? How very Soviet of you. Ministering to "non-English populations" (the Irish) was a very late development, following Irish migration. John Southworth, Ambrose Barlow, Margaret Clitherow, Cuthbert Mayne et al had nothing to do with ministering to the Irish, but with keeping the Church alive, albeit underground, in England, amongst the English.
It all sounds so terribly Sellar and Yeatman of you. On the American War of Independence: "This was a Good Thing in the end, as it was a cause of the British Empire, but it prevented America from having any more History". Your religious version reads something like: The Tudor Reformation - "This was a Good Thing in the end, as it was a cause of the Anglican Communion, but it prevented Catholics from having any more History".
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Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
As we all know, the Protestants were Right but Repulsive and the Catholics Wrong but Wromantic.
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Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not a contradiction - i think you misunderstood my point.
Both organisations want a corporate crossing, not individual ones.
After all, catholic faith says we are saved as corporate, not as individuals.
If the truth can be told, there are arguably too many so-called (anglo)-catholic societis and to my mind, a form of unity in diversity. Obviously, there are considerably more such societies than CL and GSS. All such societies are in favour of some sort of reunion with "the other side of the Tiber".
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
I think one point not brought out is that many Anglo Catholics like to be different, idiosyncratic or eccentric - in relation to their fellow Anglicans.
In this they differ often from RCs.
Using Roman rite or even English Missal marks people as different... Up the candle etc.
Whether or not its actually legal is a secondary or even tertiary matter.
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Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I think one point not brought out is that many Anglo Catholics like to be different, idiosyncratic or eccentric - in relation to their fellow Anglicans.
In this they differ often from RCs.
Using Roman rite or even English Missal marks people as different... Up the candle etc....
I regret to say, Percy B that I think there is truth in what you say.
[ 26. January 2013, 09:02: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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