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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The place of the choir in church services
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In the churches that I have been in those that have a 'choir' only number at most 10 people maybe only half a dozen.
In Creamtealand we seem to have 'bunching' - many choirs have either died out or been encouraged out, consequently the choirs that are left attract keen choristers who have been left 'homeless' as a result, and are therefore of a good size.
You'll end up outnumbering the congregation...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I must admit I dislike being in a choir where those who can't read music tend to just sing the 'tune'. This is particularly difficult if these voices happen to be male as the balance and whole sound is distorted.
This problem is endemic in the UK, in my experience, and not just in church choirs, but in amateur operatic societies and so on. I've been the only tenor in a G&S chorus before now actually singing the tenor line, against one or two "sopranors".
Part singing, like learning to read the bloody dots, seems to suffer from a certain level of anti-intellectualism - you can sense the disapproval of anyone daring to use words like "interval", "perfect fourth" or "key signature". It's one of the reasons I don't do this stuff any more, in church or out of it. I'm not interested in not doing it properly.
Reading music and sight-reading may not be essentials to part singing, but they make learning the parts a hell of a lot easier, faster and more accurate.
[ 31. January 2013, 10:07: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You'll end up outnumbering the congregation...
The congregation is about 200, not much chance of that! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Karl, you have a young family. You may find that you get interested in singing again when they are grown up, hard as that may be to imagine at the moment. There are certainly choirs who would appreciate your input.
We have a significant number in the congregation with good voices - people who don't wish to commit to singing in the choir, but who nevertheless help greatly as they provide a boost to the more timid singers all around the church. It's also a great encouragement to us as we process around during the first hymn, to hear them enthusiastically joining in. I'd rather have that than a church where the congregation hardly join in the hymns at all - a rather unnerving experience.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I have not lost interest in singing, Chorister. But I have never had much interest in unison singing with about three other people of uninspiring material, nor of being the subject of reverse snobbery for actually knowing about this music stuff.
Bit academic really; my current church has no congregational singing, let alone a choir.
[ 31. January 2013, 11:08: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I have sung in a parish church choir since childhood, believing music to be a very important part of the liturgy and the service as a whole, with those who have talent in this area helping to lead the singing and enhance the worship of others in the congregation, both with communal song and also choir-only anthems.
However, I have been giving a deal of thought to this assumption recently, due to the combination of a number of factors - and would welcome suggestions from other choristers, church musicians and members with wider church experience.
The situation, as we have it, is a choir of amateur singers who are welcomed without audition to contribute as well as they can to the musical life of the church. The present choir master believes strongly that the choir should be open to all who wish to participate, as we are an inclusive church. So far this has worked well - we have a mixture of very talented singers, some (including me) fairly average but willing to work hard to reach a good standard, and others who don't really have much of a clue when they start but manage to learn on the job.
Recently, however, the news of the lack of audition has got around and we are starting to see more people becoming brave enough to give it a go - people who cannot sight-read and in some cases people who cannot even sing in tune. This is not really a problem if they have very quiet voices and listen more than they sing - at worst they cannot be heard, at best they may be able to improve over time. The difficulty occurs when the balance changes - people with loud voices who cannot sing in tune overwhelming those who are singing what they are supposed to be singing. The danger, once the choir reaches this stage, is that good singers might no longer want to join what they will see as a poor choir, and that members of the congregation will not wish to attend a church where the choir are poor.
Does one accept that they are doing their best in the worship of God? Or bring in compulsory auditions for choir members, whilst being inclusive in accepting everyone into the wider ministry of the church? Should the choir be limited in their repertoire only to simple items that all can manage? Should the sung items in church services be limited only to hymns which involve the whole congregation, good singers and poor singers alike?
Have other people experienced similar dilemmas? Any ideas on best practice?
I am in a similar predicament. I recently joined a church choir in my new town. I grew up singing in an elite(st?) boy's choir that was audition only and fairly selective. The choir at my new church is open to all. It's like you describe - some who have good musical skills all around, others who can't read music very well but can learn through repetition, and a few who are just...
There's a guy that I sometimes sit next to who is partially deaf and has a speech impediment and I suspect some intellectual disabilities. And I don't fault the man for putting his heart into it. But he won't watch and he's extraordinarily loud, so he throws off other choir members who sing by ear and he, pardon me, f---s up the cutoffs every single time. The basses take turns "taking one for the team" by sitting next to him. I know a couple who stuff the ear closest to him with cotton.
The other baddies are among the loudest too. They don't know what the "p" above the notes signifies.
It's frustrating, but I love singing in church. The best I can figure is that I take what my fiancee calls a "zen approach": I try to remind myself that a) it's not about me in the end; and b) if the choir gets to be a real problem, someone will speak up to change the way the choir works. I predict that time might come soon.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
I know I'm coming in a bit late with this but:
Knowing that this is a Church choir, I would not however disregard allowing it to be an open organisation. Although it is a churchy thing most Church choirs have to deal with dwindling congregation numbers from which to draw the members, therefore by opening it up to non-church goers you have the opportunity to bring in those people who can sing, and like to sing, but who find it daunting or imopssible to join a professional choir these days. If the non-churchgoer is aware, and accepts the fact, that they will be singing churchy things then I don't see why you should not allow them to join, it's not like they have to communicate...
AS the choir I used to be involved with said in it's advertising, 'Christian, athiest, pot-belly pig worshippers - all welcome.'
Certainly at Christmas time, for 9 lessons the Choir would grow to exceptional levels as people who enjoyed singing, but couldn't do it all year, joined the choir for one of the services of the year that is full of different music and is as probably more about the singing than much else.
As for the different abilities thing, you can have two choirs, but they do not necessarily have to be seperate. It is possible to have all members together singing the 'easier' bits whilst the nucleus of those competent can sing the 'harder' bits.
As a choir we also found that putting together a CD/making available through itunes or whatever, the music to be sung was a good learning tool as the members with the sheet music could follow along to the CD and then join in as well, listening to see hwo they sounded in relation to the bits they are meant to be singing etc. It used to work for us, but I guess it might not work for everybody.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You'll end up outnumbering the congregation...
The congregation is about 200.
With a congregation that size you should surely have more than one singing group. It's not surprising that untrained people from the congregation are trying to get into the 'proper' choir - what else can they do if they like singing?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I must admit to being rather bewildered by Mousethief's take on the thread.
His distinction between art and spirituality is completely blinkered. I've experienced enough Orthodox art, music, and architecture to know for absolutely certain that not all Orthodox (very few even) share MT's puritanism.
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Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You'll end up outnumbering the congregation...
The congregation is about 200.
With a congregation that size you should surely have more than one singing group. It's not surprising that untrained people from the congregation are trying to get into the 'proper' choir - what else can they do if they like singing?
Indeed. It's a megachurch by UK standards. I went down to Chesterfield Parish Church the other week. It's pretty much the Cathedral of North Derbyshire, strong musical tradition, Cathedral service pattern, tourist guided tours up tower etc.
Congregation - about 50.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I must admit to being rather bewildered by Mousethief's take on the thread.
His distinction between art and spirituality is completely blinkered.
Between spirituality and perfectionism. Perhaps I haven't made the nature of my objections plain (although that seems unlikely).
quote:
I've experienced enough Orthodox art, music, and architecture to know for absolutely certain that not all Orthodox (very few even) share MT's puritanism.
I don't understand the comparison to puritanism. Please explain.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
My understanding of my position is that plain, old technical skill and artistic beauty are worth bringing to Christian worship because they can be used to glorify God and edify the faithful. Amateur choirs simply do not have the technical skill necessary to perform a lot of works, and a lot of simpler works sound much better when sung by skilled choristers. Not every church can have professional choirs, and not every situation calls for one, but I see their value.
My understanding of your position is that in the Orthodox Church you don't need technical skill or artistic beauty because it's all so spiritual and holy and beautiful without technical skill, and that Anglicans are snobs and godless hypocrites for striving for it in their sacred music.
My beef with that, which I will call the Father Therapon school of spirituality, is that positing such a strict dichotomy between art and spirituality is to say that art cannot be spiritual. Which leads me to point out that the Orthodox don't drape their churches with bright colors, gold leaf, and intricate mosaics merely because it's all so spiritual. It's beautiful, all on its own, and that beauty is used to communicate God. Indeed, my first encounter with Orthodoxy was a Russian monastic choir that was touring the United States, and however pious they were, they brought plain, old, professional musical expertise to the show.
The connection of your position to puritanism is clear: "We're so much holier because we don't need art to be spiritual."
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
We are also 'inclusive' - no auditions (though you have to be a member of the uni since we are the uni church).
Nobody would last long if they couldn't sight read because the repertoire is wide and rehearsal time is limited. Some items only get sung through once, an hour before a service and they probably won't occur again for over 3 years, by which time there will be a completely different choir.
I don't know if we've had anyone who is unaware that they can't sing so I don't know what would happen. The only time anybody has been kicked out was for talking during the communion (after a verbal warning)
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My understanding of your position is that in the Orthodox Church you don't need technical skill or artistic beauty because it's all so spiritual and holy and beautiful without technical skill, and that Anglicans are snobs and godless hypocrites for striving for it in their sacred music.
Then it would seem you completely, wholly, and 100%edly fail to understand my position.
quote:
The connection of your position to puritanism is clear: "We're so much holier because we don't need art to be spiritual."
Aaaaaand this clinches it.
Your equation of perfectionism with art, as if anything short of anal-retentively perfect isn't really "art," is what I'm arguing against.
[ 31. January 2013, 16:32: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Your equation of perfectionism with art, as if anything short of anal-retentively perfect isn't really "art," is what I'm arguing against.
My equation? I haven't argued any such thing. I don't see anyone who has argued the "perfectionism" that you are arguing against. My mistake for thinking your were arguing against what people actually said.
[ 31. January 2013, 16:37: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
No go. Portraying my position as, "We don't need art to be spiritual," when I have said over and over that what we don't need to be spiritual is perfectionism, is equating perfectionism with art. By dropping in the one word where I have said the other, you are quite explicitly drawing that parallel.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
With a congregation that size you should surely have more than one singing group. It's not surprising that untrained people from the congregation are trying to get into the 'proper' choir - what else can they do if they like singing?
Untrained people are always welcome in the choir, as I have already said it's an inclusive group. The problem arises when the one or two spoil the efforts of the many by overpowering them. We are used to the choir being teamwork.
That's a good point about a church with 200+ people having more than one singing group. I think the church would be open to that. It would create interesting possibilities, matching the type of group to the different types of services. Are there people on here with experience of organising such groups?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The problem arises when the one or two spoil the efforts of the many by overpowering them. We are used to the choir being teamwork.
This is an interesting point. In our choir, the people who overpower their section and throw the choir out of balance are inevitably the highly trained dot-readers.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
No go. Portraying my position as, "We don't need art to be spiritual," when I have said over and over that what we don't need to be spiritual is perfectionism, is equating perfectionism with art. By dropping in the one word where I have said the other, you are quite explicitly drawing that parallel.
I know. Thinking that your objections were against what people here were actually arguing, I imagined you were using "perfectionism" to mean "striving for the greatest technical skill one can manage in one's congregation."
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
OK, I perhaps see where you're coming from, Mousethief. No, ours is completely different - the problem is people with loud, inaccurate voices who aren't interested in quietly learning from other more experienced singers.
One of the reasons our church is so large, I think, is because many people make an active choice to attend a church with such strong music and liturgy (which is one of the reasons I'm concerned of the effect if the music takes a nosedive). There are other churches in the town and area with other strengths, but this is ours.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Untrained people are always welcome in the choir, as I have already said it's an inclusive group. The problem arises when the one or two spoil the efforts of the many by overpowering them. We are used to the choir being teamwork.
That's a good point about a church with 200+ people having more than one singing group. I think the church would be open to that. It would create interesting possibilities, matching the type of group to the different types of services. Are there people on here with experience of organising such groups?
ISTM that the choirmaster (or whoever directs the choir) ought to be able to discriminate between those who are untrained and those who cannot be trained !
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Thinking that your objections were against what people here were actually arguing, I imagined you were using "perfectionism" to mean "striving for the greatest technical skill one can manage in one's congregation."
Golly, if that's what people were arguing for, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with it. At least one or two have argued for hiring professionals from outside the congregation.
[ 31. January 2013, 17:48: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Golly, if that's what people were arguing for, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with it. At least one or two have argued for hiring professionals from outside the congregation.
Why not, if the church can afford it and it produces something beautiful that can glorify God and edify the faith of the congregation? It's no different from calling in a renowned architect to design a church over a mediocre architect in the congregation.
You're making is sound like anything more than barring singers that can emit only glass shattering shrieks is an affront to all piety.
[ 31. January 2013, 17:59: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Why not, if the church can afford it and it produces something beautiful that can glorify God and edify the faith of the congregation?
Is a paid choir of non-Christians worship? Is there no limit to movement in this direction? Beauty über alles?
Perhaps we could find non-Christians who pray more beautifully than we do, and pay them to lead the services. Perhaps we could send the entire congo home, and pay a bunch of non-Christians, if they could glorify God more beautifully?
I don't understand your attitude here. You do in fact seem to be putting a kind of perfectionism ahead of worship.
[ 31. January 2013, 18:08: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The priest gets paid for his services and his work is considered worship. Why not the choir?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Hey, I bet well meaning old ladies can paint icons for free. Why pay skilled iconographers? This is worship, technical skill shouldn't come over that!
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The priest gets paid for his services and his work is considered worship. Why not the choir?
The priest is, I hope, a Christian. Maybe for you guys that doesn't matter? If you say it does, then you admit your analogy is inapt.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Hey, I bet well meaning old ladies can paint icons for free. Why pay skilled iconographers? This is worship, technical skill shouldn't come over that!
All our paid iconographers are Orthodox Christians, and the art of iconography includes special prayers of preparation as well as prayers said during the actual painting. It isn't done by non-Christians, no matter how skilled they are with a brush. Even if the non-Christian could conceivably make a more beautiful icon. Your analogy has no teeth, and looks to have gum decay as well.
And once again, "technical skill" versus "paying non-Christians to worship for us, to bring us to the height of technical skill" are two quite different things.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
So your one and only objection here is hiring non-Christians? Or are you putting on the pretense of there being a real difference now?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
A 'select group of professional singers' sounds like London to me, or at least a church with access to University choral scholars. I'm not so sure it works in more rural areas.
Not necessarily London, but I'm sure you are right. IIRC Chorister, you are in a country town, which I imagine is the ideal sort of place for your sort of choir. In a town you will have a good cross section of ages, classes, backgrounds, and doubtless several competent musicians without many alternative outlets for their skills.
Yes. In the typical London church choir no-one reads music at all, and at least a few often sing out of tune. But that's better than not singing at all.
I agree with Mousethief on this.
Thoiugh I do wonder why his sensible opinion on professionalism singing hymns on this thread is the oppostie of his less sensible opinion on saying prayers on another thread... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Your analogy has no teeth, and looks to have gum decay as well.
Rereading your post, I can really see there is no point in arguing with you. You think piety makes paid choirs impossible, I don't think it does. Your whole argument here is that I don't understand you, and your practices are holier than mine because they just are. Until you get a better argument, Imma pass on this one.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
So your one and only objection here is hiring non-Christians? Or are you putting on the pretense of there being a real difference now?
I gave that as an example of over-perfectionism, and you latched onto it, so I have been responding to your objections. If you can't respond to my last post, admit it and we can drop it.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Your analogy has no teeth, and looks to have gum decay as well.
Rereading your post, I can really see there is no point in arguing with you. You think piety makes paid choirs impossible, I don't think it does. Your whole argument here is that I don't understand you, and your practices are holier than mine because they just are. Until you get a better argument, Imma pass on this one.
No. Your argument is that paid choirs INCREASE piety.
[ 31. January 2013, 18:55: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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wheelie racer
Shipmate
# 13854
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Posted
Reading through many of the posts suggesting large choirs/ smaller grouping and professional choirs makes me think that it would be wonderful if the church I attend (and many more like it) had the luxuary of that level of people and resources to adraw upon. Sadly the reality is very, very different and sometimes it very much a case of having to be realistic and making the most of the resource, people and abilities of the people you do have and nurturing and developing skills and people to help them to reach their potential and do their best
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Posts: 171 | From: off this planet | Registered: Jun 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It's over, MT.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's over, MT.
I can't even begin to tell you how this increases my piety.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Here is a different model. We (CofE, ASA 50) have a choir, and an augmented choir.
The core choir is the seven who attend regularly, and are pillars of the church in other ways. All four parts are sung to hymns, service setting and simple anthems. We double this once a month with friends and family who can't commit to weekly attendance. Then we can sing proper stuff. Furthermore, some of us also sometimes go down to the Town Church where they still maintain Choral Evensong.
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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's over, MT.
I can't even begin to tell you how this increases my piety.
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the attitude that made me realize how it's not worth arguing with you.
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
mousethief
I have to say, not coming from a High Church background, the idea of churchgoers paying non-Christians to make music for church worship is quite disturbing to me. But it seems to be accepted that many High Churches pay their organists, and they overlook the possibility that these organists may not be believers. It's only a short step from organists to singers, really....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's over, MT.
I can't even begin to tell you how this increases my piety.
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the attitude that made me realize how it's not worth arguing with you.
I thought you said it was over.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I thought you said it was over.
I thought it only fair to clarify what the issue was.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I thought you said it was over.
I thought it only fair to clarify what the issue was.
Oh, I know what the issue was.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The priest gets paid for his services and his work is considered worship. Why not the choir?
I hope Zach82 that in your church the priests aren't simply hired at so much a throw. The idea behind a stipend is that they are supported so as to free them up from having to earn a living, and so enable them to serve God in his church in stead.
Besides, 'worship' these days is used in most Bible translations indiscriminately to translate two quite different words in Hebrew and Greek. The Authorised Version was careful to distinguish between them. In each language, one word means what we do when we fall before the Lord our maker. The other means the service priests and levites render at the altar. The one is something we all need to do in our hearts. That other is a service rendered so as to enable the people to worship in the first sense.
The role of the clergy, and the choir, is more to serve in the second sense, but it does seem to work better if they are able to worship in the first sense at the same time.
Hiring somebody to serve in the second sense, who has no intention or wish to worship in the first sense, is more than a bit of a travesty.
A vicar is not so called because they are hired to pray on our behalf, and thereby to let us off having to do so ourselves.
[ 31. January 2013, 19:57: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I'm looking at the end result, Enoch. I've been spiritually moved by a professional choir. I don't see what's a travesty about it, since I can't conceive of any theological reason that a non-Christian singing Christian songs cannot be conducive to Christian prayer.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In our case, paid members is not an option - the church simply doesn't have the funds, even if we wanted to (whcih I don't think we do). People come and sing because they want to, within the context of faith, the church and the liturgy. Otherwise, they join a chamber choir or choral society if they don't want the 'God' bit. It would be my preference to save the payment tangent for another thread if people wish to discuss it further.
We are very fortunate in having one or two good singers per part - these are church members like everyone else. It just happens that they are really good singers. Others can learn from them if they choose to listen carefully. Most do.
Something which has always pleased me is that the choir has always had a junior section - usually quite small, but it is very satisfying to see the youngsters learn and improve as they sing. They can go out to the vestry group for some of the service if it is more suitable to their age-group and understanding if they wish, although they are welcome to stay in the main service if they prefer. I would be interested to hear from others who have found ways of incorporating children into the choir with participation in all or part of the liturgy.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
My last parish paired young singers with adult singers that could both help them develop their musical skills and act as spiritual mentors. It saw a lot of success, in terms of kids becoming interested in and continuing to participate in the liturgy.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
In terms of Church Musicians and faith:
Ralph Vaughn Williams is well known to be an agnostic/atheist and yet he compiled and published "The English Hymnal" which was quite popular in the CofE.
Of the great composers, I can only think of Bach and Handel who were personally very pious. My hunch was that Mozart was in it for the money, (but I must confess my dislike of the most overrated composer in history, I mean, the "great" Wolfgang).
Presumably Tallis was devout but he was quite prepared to shift theologies between Henry VIII, Mary, and Elizabeth in order to avoid getting his head chopped off.
[ 31. January 2013, 21:17: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Paid choirs have a very long history. In the middle ages, through the Reformation, and to the present day English cathedrals, chapels, and even a prosperous parish here and there have maintained choirs where boys received room, board, and education in exchange for the services, assisted by paid men to sing the low parts and play the organ.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
... That's a good point about a church with 200+ people having more than one singing group. I think the church would be open to that. It would create interesting possibilities, matching the type of group to the different types of services. Are there people on here with experience of organising such groups?
I have not been involved in organising multiple singing groups, but was a member of a Church choir which started a second group, billed as a group for more experienced singers, to sing more difficult music. From that experience, I would warn that the early days could be difficult. The process of change could be upsetting for current choir members.
I would suggest careful discussions about what a second group can offer and how this can benefit the life of the Church. It could be hard to do this without devaluing what the current choir achieves. If different groups sing at different types of services, that might be a workable solution. Be clear, perhaps, about how the second group is selected. (Audition might be fairer than invitation, for example.) Would you have enough singers keen to make up a second group to achieve a good result? We found that one of our best musicians did not believe in splitting the choir, so the new group had to import a substitute whenever it sang alone. Many of our choir practices were split into two groups as well, which meant that the less experienced/less musical members of the general choir lost the opportunity to learn from those with more experience/skills. Are there ways to avoid this without burdening some choir members with extra rehearsals? Good luck with finding a way forward.
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
Posts: 383 | From: On dry land | Registered: Feb 2006
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
The issue of paying non-Christians to provide music for Christian worship (whilst a tangent) does rather seem to be dominating this thread. I think the more pertinent question for each church is whether it is a good use of their resources - for some it will be, for some it won't.
We have an acolyte at our church who is an atheist. Is that also "more than a bit of a travesty"? I don't think it is. He's a good bloke and obviously doesn't think that we at church are so barmy that he needs to give us a wide birth.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is a paid choir of non-Christians worship? Is there no limit to movement in this direction?
Can I pose an example, from my parish, that moves in the other direction, temporarily factoring out the stipend?
Is it worship if the choir is comprised of all communicants, but salted with one Jew and one Hindu?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Communicating non-Christians?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
The issue of paying non-Christians to provide music for Christian worship (whilst a tangent) does rather seem to be dominating this thread. I think the more pertinent question for each church is whether it is a good use of their resources - for some it will be, for some it won't.
For churches that can afford it, I suppose the question of whether it's a good use of such resources rests on whether or not it's conducive to prayer.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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