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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Non Anglo-Catholic ABC parishes
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Is it just me or is it usual in the Church of England for parishes that have ratified the Three Resolutions (which this topic is not meant to discuss) tend also to be ones featuring thurible-swinging, bells, genuflexions, elevations, and other things the English Reformation largely did away with?
There is only one parish I can think of in Bristol where I live which is not Anglo-Catholic and even they have *high* elements - aside from strict adherence to 1662, the priest also faces toward the east and wears a chasuble, which I am not at all fond of.
Is there just not much provision for the moderate Churchman under the Three Resolutions, or must he grin and bear Anglo-Catholic worship, which seems often to be contrary to English Protestant theology?
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Oxonian Ecclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12722
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Posted
S. George Gateshead is conservative evangelical - north scarf, black end, &c. They have passed Resolutions A and B and have petitioned their diocesan bishop for the extended episcopal care of the Bishop of Beverley.
Posts: 174 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2007
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I'd say that the ABC parishes include a good mix of Anglo-catholic 'brands' (though heavily leaning towards 'modern Roman Catholic'), plus a few Reform-style old-fashioned conservative Evangelicals and one or possibly two charismatic parishes.
I'm not aware of anywhere with anything approaching 'moderate churchmanship' with the resolutions in place... and would be surprised if there were. Why would a mainstream C of E parish object to such a mainstream Anglican practice as the ordination of women? (not wishing to touch on the Dead Horse, of course).
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There is a parish nearby me in Creamtealand which will still not allow women priests to celebrate - it is conservative/charismatic evangelical.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:
http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html
It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Why would a mainstream C of E parish object to such a mainstream Anglican practice as the ordination of women? (not wishing to touch on the Dead Horse, of course).
I'm trying to think of any 'Central Churchmanship' parishes that have passed C but Shipmate PD is of that theological bent, as is the whole of his UECNA, so "old-fashioned central churchmen" are not universally 'liberal'.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
I was incumbent of a MOTR 'C' parish a few years ago. We had a Sung Eucharist/Parish Communion with vestments, but no reservation, and incense only at Midnight Mass. I would label the place 'Prayer Book Catholic', though we were Rite B/CW trad, with BCP on a weekday.
Prior to 'C' the parish was in constant default on Quota: while we were 'C' the Diocesan Quota was paid faithfully. After I left the resolutions were all rescinded, churchmanship rocketed skywards, and they defaulted on Quota again!
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There is a parish nearby me in Creamtealand which will still not allow women priests to celebrate - it is conservative/charismatic evangelical.
That's not uncommon in Evangelical churches, but they usually only pass resolutions A & B. It's unusual to find an Evangelical place that has passed resoltion C.
One exception to this I believe is St Nick's, Tooting in South London.
[ 05. February 2013, 09:40: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Our parish does have vestments and the clergy do face east,but we do not reserve or elevate, genuflect or have incense, invoke the saints or pray for the dead, and BCP is used at the Sung Eucharist.
But the only requirement for clergy seems to be that they have conservative views. So you can go to Evensong one week and hear about how Christians don't have priests or make sacrifices, and the next about the hallowed Apostolic succession... just as long as the preacher remembers to slash off General Synod.
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sounds positively poisonous to me.
Then it must be good!
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sounds positively poisonous to me.
Then it must be good!
Bizarre reasoning. A shack where the only distinctive common teaching is apparently "we hate the general synod" sounds pretty toxic to me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I know of some conservative evangelical ABC parishes (Sussex and Northampton) but no MOTR ones.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
....just as long as the preacher remembers to slash off General Synod.
I declined to let our gaff become a shelter for such an outlook, and forfeited support as a result.
Was I bovvered? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 05. February 2013, 11:33: Message edited by: Oferyas ]
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Indeed. Tendencies that way can be dangerous. There were several people who left one particular parish in Chichester diocese because the parish priest went on and on and on about how wrong General Synod was. The people who left agreed with him but were bored by its tedious repetition.
I'm sure there must be parishes that think that General Synod votes are generally positive - but I have to say I've never knowingly worshipped in one!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
... I'm sure there must be parishes that think that General Synod votes are generally positive - but I have to say I've never knowingly worshipped in one!
I'd be really worried about a parish that was seriously excited by the doings of General Synod. The recent vote on women bishops is the only thing that's happened in General Synod since the previous vote on women priests that I can recall anyone being interested in at all. Everything else, whether clergy pension schemes, the covenant, authorising experimental services or whatever, might as well not have happened, and I think that's healthy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
We are steering off topic a bit, but I for one am glad Synod and the Bishops have gone back to boring things so we can start talking about the Gospel of God again.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There is a parish nearby me in Creamtealand which will still not allow women priests to celebrate - it is conservative/charismatic evangelical.
But is it actually ABC?
Most evangelical parishes round here have women priests. But it is rumoured that some of those that don't never will - but they aren't ABC either. They are trusting in the combination of co-operative patrons and their parish veto to ensure that they only get men. Just as they trust in those to ensure they only get evangelicals of the right sort.
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:
http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html
It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.
Dunno about their churchmanship, but their website crashed my browser.
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Our parish does have vestments and the clergy do face east,but we do not reserve or elevate, genuflect or have incense, invoke the saints or pray for the dead, and BCP is used at the Sung Eucharist. But the only requirement for clergy seems to be that they have conservative views.
Your parish? So this thread isn't so much a discussion about non-Anglo-Catholic dewomanised parishes, as a sort of advert for your own church?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Doesn't look like much of an advert for it to me, ken. Warning sign, maybe.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:
http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html
It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.
I guessed that was the church you were referring to in the OP. They first passed the resolutions when St. Michael on the Mount (part of 'our' empire, originally) closed and the congregation moved to St. Stephen's, which then went into interregnum. The parish profile of St. Stephen's said it was open to a woman priest so Christ Church, which had been linked with St. Stephens way back when Bishop Tinsley wanted to close them down (but couldn't, since both have large endowments so could declare UDI) decoupled itself.
Churches change over the years - the passing of the resolutions would have attracted discontents from other churches, as did All Saints' Clifton which used to be fairly 'liberal').
Given that the priest in charge of both places has recently retired, both churches will have to debate the resolutions again.
PipN Jay was also a resolution ABC and under the care of Ebsfleet - and that is charismatic evangelical. It ceases to advertise in the FiF tabloid so it has, perhaps, rescinded the resolutions.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Given that the priest in charge of both places has recently retired, both churches will have to debate the resolutions again.
I think it's the case that they need to decide whether they want to debate them, but my memory may be confuddled.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Given that the priest in charge of both places has recently retired, both churches will have to debate the resolutions again.
I think it's the case that they need to decide whether they want to debate them, but my memory may be confuddled.
Thurible
Pretty much every PCC (including those with no resolutions, including those where the departing incumbent is female) need to consider the resolutions at their "Section 11" (vacancy) meeting. "Consider" does not mean "debate". I have been on PCCs (both with and without resoltions) where the consideration basically consisted of "everybody happy? yes? OK. Minuted".
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
A gentle reminder to all posters that the OP was about the worship practices of ABC parishes. If you move on to debating church politics (including attitudes towards the General Synod) or the resolutions as such (including when in the life of a parish they might have to be debated), this thread could find itself moved or closed.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
St Michael's Cornhill, in the City of London, strikes me as the sort of place that (under the previous incumbent at any rate) would be a MOTR Resolutions parish. I don't know about the C bit (but in the diocese of London that is probably academic); I'm pretty sure they would be A and B. Very conservative in most respects, liturgical, political and theological. So-called Prayer Book worship with a few high-church trimmings (so a bit like the Bristol church) but definitely not 'Anglo-Catholic'.
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
S Michael's Cornhill hasn't passed any of the Resolutions, just very conservative and bizarre in their worship practices. BCP (but not always by the book) but a *Tridentine Mass* on occasions. I'm not sure how those two go together...
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Even more bizarre than I thought!
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
I wonder if there are some evangelical places where women may celebrate but not lead or be bishops, now what's that resolution status.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
S Michael's Cornhill hasn't passed any of the Resolutions, just very conservative and bizarre in their worship practices. BCP (but not always by the book) but a *Tridentine Mass* on occasions. I'm not sure how those two go together...
A silent war between the vicar and his curate?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I wonder if there are some evangelical places where women may celebrate but not lead or be bishops, now what's that resolution status.
They certainly exist. I've heard of parishes that have passed only Resolution B.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
A PDF of Cornhill's Holy Communion service, "based closely on the BCP".
I'm still struggling to think of any that have actually passed all three resolutions but there are a few in Chichester who simply haven't bothered, as it were.
All Saints, Ryde, was one such but they've recently rescinded (after the Vicar left them for the Ordinariate).
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
All Saints Clifton is Anglo Catholic but the resolutions are being voted on again soon. The previous incumben called himself Father at one parish and Richard at the other.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
A silent war between the vicar and his curate?
I don't think so. I think it was just what Peter Mullen, the previous incumbent, came up with.
This, from their parish profile: "The congregation is devoted to the use of the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible in services (except on infrequent occasions, such as the feast of Corpus Christi, when a Latin (Tridentine) mass is occasionally used). While the church is firmly in the category of the High Church, incense is not used."
How do you do Corpus Christi without incense?!
Also this: "Although the PCC has never debated the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure, and therefore has no formal objection to female candidates, the parish has a certain conservatism in such matters"
I'm not sure if that will actually make any difference...
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
A silent war between the vicar and his curate?
I don't think so. I think it was just what Peter Mullen, the previous incumbent, came up with.
This, from their parish profile: "The congregation is devoted to the use of the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible in services (except on infrequent occasions, such as the feast of Corpus Christi, when a Latin (Tridentine) mass is occasionally used). While the church is firmly in the category of the High Church, incense is not used."
How do you do Corpus Christi without incense?!
Also this: "Although the PCC has never debated the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure, and therefore has no formal objection to female candidates, the parish has a certain conservatism in such matters"
I'm not sure if that will actually make any difference...
Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
A silent war between the vicar and his curate?
I don't think so. I think it was just what Peter Mullen, the previous incumbent, came up with.
This, from their parish profile: "The congregation is devoted to the use of the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible in services (except on infrequent occasions, such as the feast of Corpus Christi, when a Latin (Tridentine) mass is occasionally used). While the church is firmly in the category of the High Church, incense is not used."
How do you do Corpus Christi without incense?!
Also this: "Although the PCC has never debated the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure, and therefore has no formal objection to female candidates, the parish has a certain conservatism in such matters"
I'm not sure if that will actually make any difference...
Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).
The Prayer Book liturgy that they use is available on the parish website. It's hardly a standard 1662 affair...
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
They're obviously keen on the Prayer Book. Their Mission Action Plan directly links abandonment of the BCP with the demise of the Church of England. No joke.
"The Church of England as an institution has not recognised the anti Christian nature of the new doctrine and has sought to accommodate itself to it and reinterpret Christian truth accordingly.
The abandonment of the Book of Common Prayer was a key part of this accommodation and reinterpretation. It has led to accelerating
institutional collapse."
That, to me, is as nuts as anything the KJV-only brigade spout.
There's also that nagging doubt in the back of my mind about that Tridentine Mass (no incense)...
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But Peter Mullen was/is pretty widely recognised as being, at best, um, rather eccentric, is/wasn't he?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).
Isn't that rather an Anglocentric perspective on the Council of Trent?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
All Saints Clifton is Anglo Catholic but the resolutions are being voted on again soon. The previous incumbent called himself Father at one parish and Richard at the other.
All Saints PCC met last night to 'move' a vote in the future but only after a day conference involving everyone in the congregation. If they have any sense, they will keep the resolutions - otherwise they don't 'merit' a full time incumbent and will probably be 'pastorally reorganised' i.e. merged into a geographically neighbouring parish.
The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.
Re- PipNJay, one of the retired clergy at All Saints informed me last night that they passed only one of the resolutions but since the conversation was mainly about another matter, I can't remember which resolution it was.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Sorry re-previous post - was reading backwards so hadn't seen host's plea/comm,and.
So, bringing it back to 'worship practices' but without resorting to gossip, I reckon that an anglo-catholic parish such as mentioned above which rescinds the resolutions will no longer look anglo-catholic. Whilst some in the pews might not even know what the resolutions mean, altar servers, already in very short supply, tend to be more clued up and more likely to leave in search of another church which has kept the resolutions.
[ 06. February 2013, 12:15: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.
Is that a typo and he disliked the, perfectly standard, "Father Richard"? If not, I can understand why Fr Hoyal might object to being called Fr Rickard.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
I call him Richard because he told me he was 'too old' to be called Father. I still don't understand what he meant. Rnd they will drop the resolutions and you can bet it will be like St Paul's down the road in a few months' time.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).
Isn't that rather an Anglocentric perspective on the Council of Trent?
Fog in the Channel- Continent cut off!
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Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So, bringing it back to 'worship practices' but without resorting to gossip, I reckon that an anglo-catholic parish such as mentioned above which rescinds the resolutions will no longer look anglo-catholic. Whilst some in the pews might not even know what the resolutions mean, altar servers, already in very short supply, tend to be more clued up and more likely to leave in search of another church which has kept the resolutions.
This is to suggest that altar servers and others who are clued up about liturgical practice are more likely to be anti-OoW. I don't know the parish so you may be right in that case, but it's hardly a reasonable assumption generally.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Certainly not in parishes where at least half the servers are female, as has been the case in all the churches of which I've been a member for the past twenty years.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.
Is that a typo and he disliked the, perfectly standard, "Father Richard"? If not, I can understand why Fr Hoyal might object to being called Fr Rickard.
Thurible
sorry - you must be used to my typos by now.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I call him Richard because he told me he was 'too old' to be called Father. I still don't understand what he meant. Rnd they will drop the resolutions and you can bet it will be like St Paul's down the road in a few months' time.
Well it will, won't it - because the last proposal from the previous archdeacon was to amalgamate the two parishes.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I call him Richard because he told me he was 'too old' to be called Father. I still don't understand what he meant. Rnd they will drop the resolutions and you can bet it will be like St Paul's down the road in a few months' time.
Oh - and what's wrong with S. Paul's? Or would you rather All Saints became more like Christ Church?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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