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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can't help feeling that if a Labour politician had made that comment we'd now have a thread full of lefties earnestly decrying the sense of superiority and elitism of graduates, and calling for them to be forced to stack shelves for six months after graduation just to give them an appreciation of what life's like for real people.

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she had no objection to working in a shop: indeed she already had retail experience. In fact she now has a job in a supermarket. But she did want paid work, or something that would advance her chances of this.

In fact she was already in the midst of a work experience placement that she had organised for herself, which would have increased her chances of being employed in a museum and made use of an expensive degree, as well as giving something back to the community through volunteering. ... In an interview with the Sunday Times in January 2013, he reportedly described her as a “snooty so-and-so. She seemed to say she shouldn’t stack shelves because she’s intelligent. The way she sneered — as if she was too good for it.”

But this is a gross misrepresentation of her position. To make things worse, he apparently tried to smear her again after the court judgement went against him, as well as seeming unashamed about his department breaking the law. On the Andrew Marr show, he (IDS) appeared to imply that she was part of “a group of people out there who think they are too good for this kind of stuff."

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After studying similar programmes in Canada, the US and Australia, they found no evidence such schemes increased an the chances of gaining employment

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The next time these smart people who say there's something wrong with this go into their supermarket, ask themselves this simple question: when they can't find the food on the shelves, who is more important: them, the geologist or the person who's stacked the shelves?

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
If twitter is anything to go by then those who do work and view their jobs as a service to others aren't worth salt in the eyes of the left, as this summing up of yesterdays NUJ strike activity would seem to indicate.

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
If twitter is anything to go by then those who do work and view their jobs as a service to others aren't worth salt in the eyes of the left, as this summing up of yesterdays NUJ strike activity would seem to indicate.

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Alternatively, those who do work and view their jobs as a service to others see that as entirely congruent with left-leaning views - which is a lot of the reason why strikes to protect public services happen in the first place...

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Forward the New Republic

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
If twitter is anything to go by then those who do work and view their jobs as a service to others aren't worth salt in the eyes of the left,

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Originally posted by ken:
But then the right-wing has never really cared about truth,

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
I'm yet to hear the left, or their mouthpieces, accept the blame of the mid-staff hospital murders, nor as Ed Mill. stumped up the leadership to denounce O'Farrell's sick remarks (nor do I remember a denouncement when those t-shirts became public knowledge either, but hey...), the lies about imiigration from the last Labour government, Ed. Balls constant lyes about the state of the economy even when the facts were presented to him, the lies, hypocrisy and double standards that the left consistantly say in regards to equality, the poor, tax avoidance...

oh why bother going on, it all falls on deaf ears...

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can't help feeling that if a Labour politician had made that comment we'd now have a thread full of lefties earnestly decrying the sense of superiority and elitism of graduates, and calling for them to be forced to stack shelves for six months after graduation just to give them an appreciation of what life's like for real people.

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If twitter is anything to go by then those who do work and view their jobs as a service to others aren't worth salt in the eyes of the left, as this summing up of yesterdays NUJ strike activity would seem to indicate.

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

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Originally posted by ken:
But then the right-wing has never really cared about truth,

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Pots and kettles comes to mind.

I'm yet to hear the left, or their mouthpieces, accept the blame of the mid-staff hospital murders, nor as Ed Mill. stumped up the leadership to denounce O'Farrell's sick remarks (nor do I remember a denouncement when those t-shirts became public knowledge either, but hey...), the lies about imiigration from the last Labour government, Ed. Balls constant lyes about the state of the economy even when the facts were presented to him, the lies, hypocrisy and double standards that the left consistantly say in regards to equality, the poor, tax avoidance...

oh why bother going on, it all falls on deaf ears...

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
.... Why is the entirety of the left identical to the Shadow Cabinet? The left aren't a homogenous group any more than the right are. Certainly I am left of the Shadow Cabinet on many issues.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
You don't see a difference between unemployment and choosing to strike for better conditions? Crossing a picket line is betraying others, not serving them.

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
So, whilst we're at it, you think that the bullying and degrading of a group of hard-working people is acceptable do you?

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
You don't see a difference between unemployment and choosing to strike for better conditions? Crossing a picket line is betraying others, not serving them.

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Since I wasn't making a link between the two I'm not entirely sure why you don't think that I don't see a difference because I do... the former group find themselves in a position which is unfortunate and mainly out of their own control, the latter group, certainly in this case, were not striking for better conditions, but striking on the basis of greed and inability to comprehend that even the public sector needs to slip down.

So, whilst we're at it, you think that the bullying and degrading of a group of hard-working people is acceptable do you?

That people who decide that they view their work as a career they have chosen, a vocation to help others rather than a means to make money, know that there are people who are a lot worse off in the private sector, that have an ounce of political reality and worldly knowledge, should be belittled and insulted because they decided to go into work instead of causing disruption to other people's lives (although I must say it was actually a blessing to watch and listen to the BBC that day with the worst interviewers and 'journalists' off) over a matter of a bloated and priviliged corporation filled with tax dodging 'journalists', funded by one of the worst regressive taxes I can think off, shedding some jobs...

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You're looking for economic logic in a scheme that is fundamentally about politics: See, we're making those people work for their money. We have no capacity for the extra effort needed to figure out whether the work is useful, but so long as they're working for it all those self-righteous constituents who think that being unemployed is a moral failing will be terribly happy with us.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if an economic analysis showed that the scheme wasn't beneficial (or even that it was economically counter-productive), but the scheme isn't designed for its economic benefit in the first place.

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[QB...while those own the land (or anything much else) have no appreciation that they have any obligation towards employing them.[/QB]

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Originally posted by orfeo:
That's what Downton Abbey keeps telling me.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
That's what Downton Abbey keeps telling me.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Meh, it just looks deathly boring to me. Like Eastenders but 100 years ago and with better accents. I'd rather watch a Mythbusters repeat.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Meh, it just looks deathly boring to me. Like Eastenders but 100 years ago and with better accents. I'd rather watch a Mythbusters repeat.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
Can anyone explain the underlying economics of this sort of scheme?

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Originally posted by rufiki:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
Can anyone explain the underlying economics of this sort of scheme?

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I think that IDS's argument was that someone with absolutely nothing on their CV would get something on their CV. They would have shown the ability to hold down a job, which is something that employers like.

How this can be applied to the geology graduate in question (who apparently already had work experience) I don't know.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
I shall fail to be knocked over by any passing feathers.

Clue: amongst other things the people who we in the health service have been signing off as not fit for work for long periods of time, may genuinely not be fit for work.

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Ahhh, Doublethink I see your misunderstanding there. You were thinking that the purpose of the government announcements/'policies' was to reduce unemployment and thus reduce the benefits bill.

Where you're going wrong is not understanding that government policy is subtly different. Let me explain:
People are not unemployed because there aren't enough jobs (clearly 1 million more unemployed people that jobs is not the issue) but because they are lazy or stupid or both.
People are not claiming disability-related benefits because of disability but because they are scroungers and lazy and trying to steal from the state.
The thing is, if you appreciate that people are poor and/or sick and disabled by choice then you will see the wisdom and justice in taking away as much money from them as possible.

This is what IDS was getting at... blame the unemployed for unemployment - I mean otherwise you'll have to face the ridiculous notion that people who make policy in government are responsible for the effects of said policy.

You know, actually I might respect the odd right-winger who owned up to the idea that they think disability / unemployment benefits should be less because the nation 'can't afford them' (I would disagree with that on economic grounds btw but...) instead there is clearly (and IDS is a good example of this, in this case) a deliberate communications policy to demonise anyone in receipt of any benefits. (Apart from the elderly who get ~45% of the benefits budget btw...)

Once you demonise disable people as fakers, you can get away with dehumanising cuts. Once you demonise the unemployed as lazy and unmotivated you can get away with policies that will make many of them homeless... This is what it's all about.

And it sickens me. I would not normally subscribe to Bevan's famous description of Tories, I don't think considering people one disagrees with as somehow less moral than oneself is healthy or wise or constructive. However, I am finding it increasingly hard to respect the members of this government who, whilst being extremely wealthy sneer at the poor.

So yes, this is another government minister talking out of his arse...

AFZ

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
People are not unemployed because there aren't enough jobs (clearly 1 million more unemployed people that jobs is not the issue) but because they are lazy or stupid or both.

People are not claiming disability-related benefits because of disability but because they are scroungers and lazy and trying to steal from the state.

...

This is what IDS was getting at... blame the unemployed for unemployment

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You know, actually I might respect the odd right-winger who owned up to the idea that they think disability / unemployment benefits should be less because the nation 'can't afford them' (I would disagree with that on economic grounds btw but...)

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Once you demonise the unemployed as lazy and unmotivated you can get away with policies that will make many of them homeless...

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
I meant to add that during my time on the dole, one of the most difficult things that I found was the lack of structure to the day: there was no particular reason to get up in the morning, no particular reason to have meals at any particular time of day, no reason to get dressed by a particular time.

Making the unemployed do something will give them that structure and discipline. If nothing else, I think that's a good enough reason to implement this scheme.

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Making the unemployed do something will give them that structure and discipline. If nothing else, I think that's a good enough reason to implement this scheme.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
Ok, I know you're being sarcastic here, but has IDS ever actually said something that looks anything like this? IDS is probably one of the few politicians who has actually been made redundant from a job, so although he taking a tough line on getting people back into work, I don't get the whole 'blaming the unemployed' schtick.

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The Rt Hon Iain Duncan-Smith MP, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, July 2011:
Welfare fraud costs the taxpayer £1.6billion every year — that’s £3,000 a minute. It’s a waste of cash that could be spent on schools and hospitals. But I’m pleased to say that fraudsters are now on borrowed time.

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The Rt Hon Iain Duncan-Smith MP, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, February 2011:
Our reforms will end the absurdity of a system where people too often get rewarded for doing the wrong thing, and those who strive to do the best by their families get penalised.

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The Rt Hon Iain Duncan-Smith MP, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, November 2010:
That is why we are developing a regime of sanctions for those who refuse to play by the rules as well as targeted work activity for those who need to get used to the habits of work

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The Rt Hon Iain Duncan-Smith MP, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, November 2010:
...three generations of the same family have [often] never worked.

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Originally posted by Jane R:
I have absolutely no objection to the idea of work placements in principle. However, I think it is wrong to compel someone who has already arranged voluntary work for herself to stop doing it in order to comply with some box-ticking exercise which will also leave her no time for job-hunting.

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:

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The Rt Hon Iain Duncan-Smith MP, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, November 2010:
...three generations of the same family have [often] never worked.

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That last one is my personal favourite... Homes with two generations of worklessnes are less than 0.9%. The percentage of households where 2 generations have NEVER worked is less than 0.1%. There is no evidence at all of three-generation worklessness. There just isn't.

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from the report:
Churches have a special interest in speaking
truthfully about poverty. Both the biblical
warnings of the prophets and the example
of Jesus teach us to pay special attention
to the voices of the most vulnerable and
underprivileged. The systematic misrepresentation
of the poorest in society is a matter of injustice
which all Christians have a responsibility to
challenge.

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Truth and Lies about Poverty - a report from the Baptist Union of Great Britain, the Methodist Church, the Church of Scotland and the United Reformed Church

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from the report:
Churches have a special interest in speaking
truthfully about poverty. Both the biblical
warnings of the prophets and the example
of Jesus teach us to pay special attention
to the voices of the most vulnerable and
underprivileged. The systematic misrepresentation
of the poorest in society is a matter of injustice
which all Christians have a responsibility to
challenge.

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I've just read the executive summary of this report. This is fantastic for two reasons, firstly it is so good to see the church speaking out on this. And secondly the codifying of the facts on the 'six big myths' about poverty in the UK is a fantastic reference. As Jesus put it, "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Now at the risk of too much theology in Hell, of course Jesus meant this specifically to refer to him in this context but it is also more widely true; truth is powerful stuff. Ministers talking out of your collective arses take note.

AFZ

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