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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why should the devil have all the best death metal tunes?
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I did indeed.
We were easily pleased back in them days! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Cool Gam, peace.
Even with the bands I mentioned liking when I was 15, that doesn't mean I like them now (and some in the list were popular with friends but I was never that keen). I used to love the chillis and green day, now I rarely listen to either. Some bands that I liked back then seem to have stood the test of time, many of them haven't. Hey ho.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes - it's the same with stuff I was listening to back in the '70s and early '80s.
I think you're right about having a broad and eclectic approach rather than sticking with one genre. There's so much good stuff out there. Not only (adopts Smashie and Nicey voice) in the annals of rr-rr-rr-rrock - but in 'popular' (not pop) music forms as a whole ... you'll find me listening to Jacques Brel and also 1940s and '50s Chanson as much as anything recorded in the last few decades.
I'm intrigued with your comments about certain styles being conducive for worship. I accept that this is going to be subjective, dependent on experiences and tastes and all manner of influences that we may not be aware of ourselves.
I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.
In your case, what is it about the 'secular' music that you listen to that helps provide that for you? I would imagine that there's something about it being a genre that you are familiar and comfortable with - but surely it must go beyond that?
I know these things are difficult to articulate at times - and I'm not one for demarcating the sacred and the secular overly prescriptively. I'm leading a Lent course with meditations on poetry and art and I'm bringing in all kinds of abstract and 'secular' material as well as poems and paintings on explicitly Christian or spiritual themes.
But rather than me ranting on, I would be interested to hear your views on this one - as well as Karl's, Rosa's and anyone else's. I promise not to take the michael.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This does not mean that there cannot be any "local colour" or "adaptation to circumstances". There is nothing intrinsically evil about "youth masses" or "folk masses" or whatever. But the question is whether the differences to a normal mass are geared toward maintaining sanctioned awe in a more appropriate way, or whether they are just attempts to please the current crowd. And so in practice most of these attempts are really misguided.
What if the worship comes out of the crowd in question, instead of being foisted upon them by some misguided evangelist?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sounds far enough, Karl. I think any of us who have dealt with the media in any way have found ourselves wrong-footed at one time or other.
But he still seems to to waiting to have his cake and eat it to some extent. I mean, if you're going to adopt a visual style or 'decor' that is meant to be 'provocative' or uncomfortable to those who simply want to skip from church to church looking for the lastest fad-fix, then the corollary of that is that you're bound to attract attention.
I still think that the original article focussed on the apparent 'heavy metal' aspects because if you took those out of the equation then there really isn't a great deal to report from a media-perspective.
Someone setting up a fresh-expression or trying to do church in a 'new', different or niche way is hardly news. It's not the first time it's been done. It won't be the last.
Why would anyone want to report on the Order of the Black Sheep in the first place? And if they did, they would have to find a 'hook', something to hang the story on. The Order of the Black Sheep might be 'news' to those involved with it but it is of bugger-all news-value to anyone else unless there's some distinctive element to get hold of and make a big deal out of - undoubtedly a bigger deal than is actually the case for the Order themselves.
It's sad, but there it is. But that's your 15 seconds of fame, I'm afraid. You've had your brief moment in the spotlight. It won't happen again. Which mightn't be a bad thing.
The only reason now that anyone might report on the OoTBS is if - heaven forbid - it all goes pear-shaped and becomes all Nine O'Clock service-sh with the leaders rogering and ripping off the congregation or if, at some point down the line, it becomes more 'conventional' and drops the current decor.
Then it would be, 'Remember that lot who had ram's skulls and heavy-metal looking insignia? Well, they've got a new logo now and it's a fluffy bunny rabbit ... ha ha ha ...'
I've been accused of being cynical on this thread. Moi? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) But I'm actually more cynical about the media than I am about initiatives like the OoTBS.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
We didn't instigate the article. The BBC came to us. God knows where they got their information from, but it seems that when we weren't what it wanted, they wrote their own story anyway.
Irritating as the sniping on here was, there's some classic FSTDT fodder after some Christian Broadcasting group reposted the report on Bookface where lots of people think we must be satanists. Plonkers.
[ 26. February 2013, 14:47: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm sure you didn't instigate the article, Karl, I wasn't suggesting you had. I'm sure you're right that the BBC came looking with a ready-made article in mind and only reported those elements that fitted their ready-made and preconceived idea of what you were all about.
As for where they get their info ... they'll simply have their ears to the ground. They'll have seen an article somewhere or else spoken to the Diocese. They have people on the look out for the quirky and the newsworthy.
As for the sniping here, well, yes, I played a part in that and I apologise for the irritation it must have caused.
I'm not sure what 'FSTDT fodder' means. ??
As for the way Christian media might be handling it - well, if I'm cynical about secular media, please don't get me started on Christian media ...
It'll all blow over soon enough and then you can get on with whatever it is you're doing and morph into whatever it is you'll morph into ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.
In your case, what is it about the 'secular' music that you listen to that helps provide that for you? I would imagine that there's something about it being a genre that you are familiar and comfortable with - but surely it must go beyond that?
Honestly, I'm not sure. You got me thinking though.
I think that music can be good in that it can render us more vulnerable and open to the spiritual, the emotional part of ourselves. Got me thinking about my own cynicism towards ultra-hyped charismatic worship, that it's not a genuine response. But music and art, whether it's in a candle-lit traditional setting, or a rock-band driven contemporary session is meant to do that - get us emotional and contemplative. It's just hard to know whether that's in a good way or a bad way.
So for me, because I find a lot of church music simplistic and boring (although actually, some hymns I love - Wesley is great, and there are some 'choruses' that I love too), I'm not usually stirred emotionally in that setting.
But amongst the music I listen to, there is stuff that gets me emotional. It doesn't have to be Christian, but if there's something I find beautiful or evocative in there, then sometimes a simple lyric, for example, can take me by surprise and spark some kind of understanding or truth in me. Doesn't matter if it wasn't written with that motivation in itself, but if it does the job, then it provokes me to some kind of a worshipful response. And I think the emotional preparation that music does is important in that process. If I had just read the lyric, it may not have had the same effect.
That's just some simple thoughts. I'm sure there's more to it.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
lilBuddha, there's nothing wrong in reading Tolkien, of course. Provided you do so when you are about 14 and not when you're 45.
Says who? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I'm 50 and it's my favourite book. And I read very widely.
I don't mind people not liking Tolkien. I do mind people trotting out the old stereotypes about Tolkien fans. Sentiments like these are precisely why I kept quiet about being a fan for decades. For years, I was the only Tolkien fan I knew. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Until the films came out. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
If it's not your cup of tea, fine. But don't make assumptions about other people's tastes and why a particular book/style of music resonates with them.
Having got that little rant off my chest, I might as well say that I've never listened to heavy metal ...
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Laurelin,
It is the age-culture fallacy. One, Tolkien did not live long enough in the past to become respectable yet. And his writings are not tied directly to an ancient culture.
Seriously, have any of Tolkien's detractors actually read Homer? Beowulf?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Seriously, have any of Tolkien's detractors actually read Homer? Beowulf?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Quite. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
There is still a lot of snobbery about Tolkien around. I strongly suspect that detractors like Mark Lawson and Germaine Greer have never actually read Tolkien! Greer went on a hilarious rant on BBC2 just after the release of the film of The Fellowship of the Ring, about how much she hated Wagner's Parsifal because it reminded her of Fellowship of the Ring.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.
What elicits a 'worshipful' response from me:
THE CONTEMPORARY STUFF
- Taize chants (love 'em)
- A lot of contemporary Christian music, again often derided in certain circles but it can be excellent: joyous, exuberant and yes, prayerful and profound. I recently discovered Avion Blackman, a Christian reggae artist whose voice is like honey (her style is wider than reggae, actually, but it certainly includes it).
- I'm a big fan of the Christian Celtic band Iona, whose music tends to be conceptual and jazz/rock/Celtic fusion. Their 1992 album The Book of Kells is just wonderful.
THE CLASSIC STUFF
- A lot of classical music, both sacred and secular. Beethoven's 9th is a religious experience, period. Bach is a giant. Stating the obvious here, but that kind of music is truly sublime.
- I used to love Gregorian chant but these days find it a little too cool and cerebral, as beautiful as it is. I prefer the dissonant harmonies of Tavener, and the gutsier feel of Russian Orthodox music.
- And then there's Jewish music ... in particular the Sephardic tradition. I love how Eastern it is.
My vicar, for what it's worth, is a big fan of Christian heavy metal. I should tell him about OTBS!
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Relax, Laurelin, I just like winding up Tolkien fans. I'd like to think I was doing it long before it was hip to do so. In fact, I was doing back in my 6th Form days - 1978/79 when Tolkien was big with the Prog Rock crowd.
On the music thing, well, yes, I'm not particularly 'into' the worship songs and choruses thing these days but I'd be lying if I said that some of these didn't 'get' to me back in the day.
I think I prefer the gutsier Russian Orthodox chant to the Gregorian stuff too, but there's a lot more styles of chant out there too, some of which I've only recently discovered and would like to hear more of.
Bach - well
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Meanwhile, on Goperryrev's point about different types/styles of music evoking particular responses - yes, I agree and can see how both 'secular' and spiritual genres can do that. And not just music either, but art, literature, architecture ...
I've been teasing and winding people up rather too much on this thread and probably giving a misleading impression of where I'm coming from with some of this stuff.
I'll be showing some Anthony Gormley material as well as Rembrandt, Durer and medieval/Renaissance altar-pieces at the Lent course I'm leading on Thursday. I included some Rothko last week.
As I said to the punters last week, 'Art and poetry is capable of taking us all sorts of places. It may take you to a different place to where it takes me - but that's great, there are no right and wrong answers ...'
Well, I might place some caveats on that. I think there are 'right' and 'wrong' choices and so on when it comes to these issues. But I wouldn't put Tolkien in the 'wrong' camp, even though he doesn't do a great deal for me.
And yes, I have read Beowulf.
I think it was Woody Allen who said that one of his greatest regrets about time lost and wasted was reading Beowulf ...
No, I don't mean that, but Seamus Heaney certainly said that his best-selling modern translation of Beowulf was probably his highest-grossing but least read publication ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
You realise that Heaney rates Tolkien pretty highly on his approach to Beowulf, right?
(And it stopped being hip to wind up Tolkien fans back in 2001. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) . For myself, I enjoyed Middle-earth becoming mainstream at long last ...)
But I'm intrigued that you think there's a 'right' and a 'wrong' approach to art, literature, music, and so on. Really? Surely the arts are subjective.
Having said that, I once walked out of a Philip Glass opera because I could stand no more. . Although I do like his film scores, curiously enough.
And you could not persuade me that John Cage-style atonality would be at all suitable for worship ... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Worship music should have some kind of transcendancy about it, since it should praise and honour God. When it comes to preferred musical styles though, as the vehicle for worship, obviously it becomes a more subjective discussion.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
You realise that Heaney rates Tolkien pretty highly on his approach to Beowulf, right?
(And it stopped being hip to wind up Tolkien fans back in 2001. . For myself, I enjoyed Middle-earth becoming mainstream at long last ...)
Never was hip, if you actually have a feel for the English language. Whatever the opposite of a "tin ear" is, Tolkien's got it. A faciltiy for choosing the right words (though it took him a long time to get there) He knows the language and he knows how to use it.
I think a lot of anti-Tolkienism is just the usual literary-establishment snobbery against fanstasy and science fiction, compounded with a bit of jealousy because he's so popular. And most of the rest of it comes from confusing Tolkien with the pack of third-rate imitators who tried to jump on they bandwagon in the 70s and 80s and 90s with giant multi-volume fantasy novels that you can't blame anyone for despising.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't despise Tolkien. I'm not a big fan. I've read the books and seen the films. And yes, as a smart-arse teenager I was all for slagging off Tolkien in order to parade my assumed intellectual superiority for reading books that I didn't understand ...
That said, when you were surrounded in the late 1970s by Prog Rock types who read nothing but Tolkien, perhaps you can understand why I wasn't so keen.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Of course Heaney admires Tolkien for his approach to Beowulf. Tolkien is well known as an authority on Anglo-Saxon literature.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I admire Heaney. Does that mean I should be a Tolkien fan too?
I don't see how that follows.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Just to come back to Maiden fans, regarding the claim that we were "giddy" about songs about the devil and what not:
There are millions of us. We live all around the world, and have all manner of ages. We are not objects. Iron Maiden have done one song about the devil, the aforementioned classic. The Maiden have done more songs about war than about occultish things.
Oh, when I saw Masturbator in Warsaw a few years ago, with them spitting blood and saying "let's fuck off heaven" and screaming, people around me were killing themselves laughing. As was I. Metal fans are very capable of taking the piss out of ourselves. The success of Spinal Tap or Bad News among metal fans shows that. The Maiden take the piss often. It's those satanic Norwegian black metal bands who look so serious (trying to look strong in order to stop themselves feeling weak) who are ridiculed by metal fans.
Why do you think that I only like metal, Gamaliel?
Ah yes, my other point. The thing is for me, as well as being about, well, majestic music, the aural equivalent of a sun rise or a cup of hot chocolate on a cold day, I associate metal with rebellion. That people can be arsey about metal feeds this rebellion. For me, at least. (Here I say explicitly in case my point is missed, that I don't speak for all metal fans.)
I can understand the need for places where people can chill, be themselves (or at least, allow part of themselves to be out and about). I am not saying anything about the OotBS, just that I know from a Quaker Meeting that I was in that a feeling of victimhood (which can be justified) can be a right pain in the arse if people don't move on. We're all on our own journeys and all that, journeys that I would though hope would lead to understanding. A theoretical "heavy metal church for people who have had people being arsey to them" would be good (other than having excellent music) as part of a process of self-acceptance, but some kind of connection to others would be needed.
Of course, no-one's talking about that. I'm simply trying to address the issue of "finding/building a church community for those who have been hurt". (Oh, and no fucker is claiming the metal fans are victims of racism.) I'm not having a go at the OofBS or Karl or anyone.
What was my other point? Oh, there's a tiresome anti-Christian nature (a largely populist unreflected nowt-against-Jesus, anti-"organised religion" sort) is in part of heavy metal culture (despite key and famous heavy metal Christians). Arsey comments about heavy metal doesn't help with this.
Regarding worship, I think that in a metal concert I can offer a lot of myself: The emotions one cannot express in church (such as anger in a positive and negative sense) as well as my body and simply being glad to be alive.
A Quaker friend once told me that one has to "earn the silence". I cannot imagine kissing Icons being on my knees and all that without a few moshpits per year.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Rosa wrote:
quote:
Iron Maiden have done one song about the devil, the aforementioned classic. The Maiden have done more songs about war than about occultish things.
For the record, I was the one who recollected headangers being "giddy" about listening to supposedly satanic music.
In my defense, I will read into the record a minor exchange I had in junior high school, when I had been called upon to make up and read the morning prayer. I turned to the Iron Maiden fan sitting next to me, and asked(just to see what kind of reaction I'd get): "Hey, do you think I should say "God bless Eddie?" Came the reply...
"Stetson, you idiot. That's like saying 'God bless Satan'".
And this guy was a fan of Iron Maiden. So, if they had a public-relations problem with being misconstrued as satanic, it was probably as common among their target demographic as among their detractors. If you look at the cover art for Number Of The Beast, the impression you get is very much that Eddie and Satan are supposed to be on the same side(even though the lyrics of the song are anti-satan).
And some of the artowrk makes the connection between Eddie and Satan even more direct. Not that I'm bothered by any of this personally, just that, if Iron Maiden got a rep for being diabolical, it was likely what they were aiming for in the first place.
I was slightly crestfallen to read on wikipedia that the inspiration for NOTB was partly the movie Damien Omen II. I haven't seen it, but I can't imagine its any better than the first Omen, which was pretty bad. I would've hoped that they would at least be as high-brow as Ozzy, and claim Aleister Crowley as their thematic source.
[ 27. February 2013, 23:28: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
One more thing...
quote:
Oh, there's a tiresome anti-Christian nature (a largely populist unreflected nowt-against-Jesus, anti-"organised religion" sort) is in part of heavy metal culture (despite key and famous heavy metal Christians).
This reminds me of another cherished memory from junior-high, when we were studying T.S. Eliot's Journey Of The Magi in language-arts, with a teacher who had no feel whatsoever for making literary works interesting.
When we got to the part about the "three trees on the low sky"(symbolizng the three crosses), a headbanger shouted out "Hey, this is like that Black Sabbath song where the guy sees Jesus being crucified![or something like that]" The teacher seized upon this connection to reply "Shut up!"
I mean, gee whiz, the kid connects a poem to something he likes, and you smack him down for it? At least where I went to school, heavy-metal lyrics could have served as a good segue into appreciating the more mystical themes of English literature.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
One Iron Maiden fan is not representative of all Iron Maiden fans. I have the impression that Eddie is a fun-figure for Maiden fans (I say that based on having seen the Maiden live in GB and Poland and met with countless fans from across Europe of different ages).
Interesting what you say about links to literature. Songs like "Stranger in a strange land", "Ghost of the navigator", "Powerslave", "From here to eternity" (my least favourite song by them), "The loneliness of the long distance runner", "The talisman", "Sign of the cross", "Dance of death", "To tame a land" (they wanted to call that one "Dune"), "Children of the damned", "Seventh Son of a Seventh Son", "Infinite Dreams", "Still life", "Where eagles dare" and "Brave new world" were either inspired by novels, or come as mini-novels of their own.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
All fair points, Rosa Winkel, of course ... apart from one, your description of '666 The Number of The Beast' as a 'classic'.
I can't see how it can be described as a 'classic' by any stretch of the imagination.
One might, say, pick out certain iconic or representative songs as representative or classic exemplars - from any genre be it from punk, ska, reggae, Motown, Disco, Northern Soul, folk-rock etc ...
I'd probably pick out a few Sabbath songs as representative/iconic songs from the Heavy Metal canon. Iron Maiden are derivative at best.
I'm sure they have a sense of humour and can take the piss out of themselves. Just as well. Everyone else does.
Meanwhile ... I thought your point about 'earning the silence' was well-made and if I were into moshpits and so on would concur that this is the best justification there could possibly be.
And finally, yes, your other point about the tiresome anti-Christian thing, 'nowt against Jesus but I don't like organised religion' - yes, that's a well made point too. I come across it in the poetry circles I'm involved with and it's very similar in that respect.
I'm not sure how arsey comments about heavy-metal not helping with this as I'm only making those arsey comments here - among friends as it were. I'm not going around making arsey comments about heavy-metal to anyone else.
Love and peace, man.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
The views we have even if not expressed can influence our behaviour. I for example can't stand pop (apart from Michael Jackson and Gwen McCrae) and at work I have trained myself to have a neutral face when people tell me they like "chart stuff", but I am sure that my disdain comes over.
I didn't just mean you anyway.
Cariad a heddwych* to you as well.
* As Dewi Sant said. For translation see the end of Gamaliel's post.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Seriously, have any of Tolkien's detractors actually read Homer? Beowulf?
Quite.
There is still a lot of snobbery about Tolkien around. I strongly suspect that detractors like Mark Lawson and Germaine Greer have never actually read Tolkien! Greer went on a hilarious rant on BBC2 just after the release of the film of The Fellowship of the Ring, about how much she hated Wagner's Parsifal because it reminded her of Fellowship of the Ring.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.
What elicits a 'worshipful' response from me:
THE CONTEMPORARY STUFF
- Taize chants (love 'em)
- A lot of contemporary Christian music, again often derided in certain circles but it can be excellent: joyous, exuberant and yes, prayerful and profound. I recently discovered Avion Blackman, a Christian reggae artist whose voice is like honey (her style is wider than reggae, actually, but it certainly includes it).
- I'm a big fan of the Christian Celtic band Iona, whose music tends to be conceptual and jazz/rock/Celtic fusion. Their 1992 album The Book of Kells is just wonderful.
THE CLASSIC STUFF
- A lot of classical music, both sacred and secular. Beethoven's 9th is a religious experience, period. Bach is a giant. Stating the obvious here, but that kind of music is truly sublime.
- I used to love Gregorian chant but these days find it a little too cool and cerebral, as beautiful as it is. I prefer the dissonant harmonies of Tavener, and the gutsier feel of Russian Orthodox music.
- And then there's Jewish music ... in particular the Sephardic tradition. I love how Eastern it is.
My vicar, for what it's worth, is a big fan of Christian heavy metal. I should tell him about OTBS!
He might be disappointed. Though we did have some metal in the background music during the meal after the service on Sunday.
I understand we're in the local paper today. Mrs KLB is going to buy a copy to see what they're saying. I understood the reporter arrived in time for morning prayer (said - as in CofE churches up and down the country, daily morning prayer is the vicar and one or two others) and stayed for a coffee.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I might be proven wrong, but my guess would be that your local paper will cover the story in a more balanced way than has been the case so far.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Rosa Winkel
I don't like 'chart stuff' either and I suspect my disdain comes out in my demeanour whenever this sort of thing is mentioned ... which isn't very often, come to think of it.
Come to think of it too, I can't remember the last time I met a heavy-metal fan in the flesh ... I did have a colleague about seven or eight years ago who was into that 'industrial' German heavy-metal sound - Rundstrum was it?
I don't know much about it. Sounded like a bunch of industrial generators to me.
I used to mildly take the piss, it is true.
He was quite charming, a bit of a geek. He dressed very conventionally at work but outside of it would wear the HM gear. But he had very short hair so it didn't look right.
Perhaps I'm all bourgeois and everything but I don't just don't seem to come across metallers. The average age in the town where I live is positively geriatric. I'm seen as a young un ...
Since moving down here I'd say that the average age of my friends and acquaintances has gone up by about 10 years. Most people I knock around with down here are probably between 5 and 10 years older than me and arguably at 51 or '2 (I can never remember which) I'm already an old git.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Aha, I've remembered my other point.
There is the consideration whether heavy metal is working class. Certainly, Black Sabbath have not only been described as such in the Guardian and on this this interesting political party page but Tony Iommi himself spoke of how his heavy music was influenced by the heavy noises he was hearing at work (see here). Certainly, other classic bands came out of the Midlands such as Judas Priest and to a lesser extent (in terms of heaviness) Led Zeppelin.
I would say that the early days of metal deffo was deffo working-class (though I guess other forms of music such as punk and hardcore were the same). The thing is, while pop went into New Romanticism which had upper class aspirations, metal stayed gritty. Of course, there was some fantasy, but this seems to not have been about aspiration.
I guess that in the US metal was working-class in the 80s. Certainly the classic bands of that time such as Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Exodus and Testament were largely (as far as I can recall) comprised of working-class members.
In any case, your talk of being an art student perhaps hints not at economic class, but rather that of the type of education. I studied business and most of my fellow students were into dance, which focussed more on good times. The metal fans tended to be computer scientists or engineers (which may mean that the issue is not education of class, but rather gender role). I mean, metal fans (in the gigs and discos I've attended) are into good times, but the music tends to be more focussed on heavier subjects.
I think things have changed now, though. Many young metal fans appear to be of the bourgeoisie.
Whatever, this would explain some of the prejudice that metal fans receive, it can be class or education based.
Maybe.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Oh yes, I'd agree with that. I was around in the '70s and metal was certainly a working-class thing. As you've said, Tony Iommi was influenced by the thump and grind he had to put up with in the foundry all day long. He also lost part of his hand in an industrial accident which explains his distinctive guitar style.
I'm quite happy to hold up my hand and admit to a certain amount of snobbery towards heavy-metal. Guilty as charged. It's an arts/humanities snobbery. It's an I'm-hipper-than-you-because-I-got-switched-onto-Punk-rather-than-Prog snobbery (even though I was a Johnny-Come-Lately to the punk thing and only just got into it in the nick of time ...)
I'm more than happy to accept all that. I'm that post-modern and self-aware.
But the main thing I have against heavy-metal is that it's shite.
Seriously, back to the plot ... all these things are culturally and socially determined. There's no way around that.
I've not got an engineering bone in my body and I've clashed with engineers in the work-place (those who've gone into general management) because they and I don't function the same way. That doesn't mean that I don't like engineers nor admire engineers - I do. I think engineering is great and much maligned. I think it's quite creative. I wish it had a higher status in the UK and was regarded more on a par with the level and status it is accorded in Germany and Japan.
I wouldn't say I was jealous of engineers, though, or had anything against the science bods and computer geeks. They obviously have a meal-ticket that I don't have access to ... arty farty bastards like me are in and out of work and don't fit into corporate culture very well. The engineers can get away with it better than I can because they have skills that people need and can do things that other people can't.
But I remember a punk poet declaiming, when I was at university:
'A rugby shirt, a Snoopy-clock, 15 pints of beer.
Put them together and what have you got? A Chemical Engineer.'
Which sort of summed it up.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Rosa wrote:
quote:
One Iron Maiden fan is not representative of all Iron Maiden fans.
No, but that guy was fairly representative of the serious weight which people I knew attached to the diabolical pretensions of heavy-metal in that era. Since I'm already staggering down memory lane:
In high school, I opined to a Twisted Sister fan that they constituted "bubble gum music". He reacted as if it were generally considered that they were as far from bubble gum as you can possibly get. There really wasn't a lot of irony surrounding that music back in the day.
Which brings me to...
quote:
I have the impression that Eddie is a fun-figure for Maiden fans (I say that based on having seen the Maiden live in GB and Poland and met with countless fans from across Europe of different ages).
Yes, but we live in an era when Ozzy Osbourne, in addition to vying with Paris Hilton for top reality-star of the decade, does ads for Samsung in which he intones "But I've been the Prince Of Darkness for thirty years!" I doubt that many of his teenaged fans back in the early 80s imagined he'd ever go as mainstream as all that.
I'm sure Eddie now is a "figure of fun" to most Iron Maiden fans, a huge chunk of whom would now be Gen Xers in their forties. At least, I certainly HOPE he would be a figure of fun to people who are now paying mortgages and going to parent-teacher interviews.
And I agree with you completely that the serious literary inspirations on heavy metal should not be understated. Also about the class-divide between metal and other genres.
[ 28. February 2013, 15:41: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't say I was jealous of engineers, though, or had anything against the science bods and computer geeks. They obviously have a meal-ticket that I don't have access to ... arty farty bastards like me are in and out of work and don't fit into corporate culture very well. The engineers can get away with it better than I can because they have skills that people need and can do things that other people can't.
Get your stereotypes right! You are confusing engineers and scientists! Very different kinds of stage personalities, at least in an academic environment. For example, engineers are widely assumed to be on the whole politically right-wing (as are army officers, sportsmen, and professional pilots), but scientists are notoriously likely to be left-wing (along with journalists and musicians - supposedly the two most left-wing professions)
Retreating from the sierras of stereotype to the fertile fields of anecdote, it is certainly the case that scientists in universities are often very cultured in an arty sort of way. They are very likely to read literary novels, listen to classical music, etc etc. They almost always know much more about things like history and literature than historians or whatever-the-collective-noun-for-those-who-study-literature-is-es do about science. And just like everyone else they also tend to know about things like TV and pop music and sport and beer and food and all the ordinary things of life. On the whole they are likely to have a wider range of interests and knowledge than other academics. In my experience anyway.
Also science doesn't pay very well!
Engineers on the other hand...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Stetson, there has certainly always been a branch of metal that takes itself very seriously. I don't think Ozzy does.
When I saw the Maiden two years ago in Warsaw, the great majority of people I saw (and there were tens of thousands of us) were in their late-teens and early-twenties. Also when I saw Judas Priest in Katowice (both times) there were older people, but still plenty of the same age group.
The Warsaw fans were shite, by the way. In Katowice though, a very working-class by Polish standards, industrial workers area, the fans were totally sound. Katowice has produced plenty metal bands. (I am the only person in Poland, I think, who has such a theory of Katowice metal fans.)
To continue the class thing, things like opera and classical music were things I associated, when I was a teenager with the Tories, posh people and the BCP. Now I love two of those things. Madchester and rave were for apolitical yobs.
The Manics were totally me. Political, anti-pop, working-class, intellectual and against misogyny (including in metal, though they like heavy metal) and angry, very angry. Now they're pop The one time I went to Greenbelt in 2003 a non-conformist pastor from the south (of Wales) gave a talk about the Manics and Christianity, approvingly using their early songs (till The Holy Bible) in order to show the Gospel.
[ 28. February 2013, 19:15: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What makes fans shite, Rosa Winkel?
How do you distinguish between fans that are 'shite' and fans which are 'sound'?
I know I've been making ad hominem remarks here, but I'd baulk at describing the afficionados of any genre as 'shite' - even if I think the music itself is pretty crap - which is my opinion of Iron Maiden's music I'm afraid.
@ken - yes, you are right to make that distinction between scientists and engineers. I should have made myself clearer. It is a distinction I would also make and share.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I meant in terms of making a good atmosphere and knowing the songs. In Warsaw during the intro-tape before Iron Maiden I was right at the front and people were just standing around. In Katowice people were shouting well before the band came on stage.
Then again, the concert in Warsaw was a festival. Of course, most there were Iron Maiden fans, but still. It was the same the year before when Metallica/Slayer/Megadeth/Anthrax played, the first time the big four had played together. Many missed Anthrax!
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Plus, if you add hardcore/crust, anti-fascism is very strong there (though there are some minor Nazi hardcore bands; Germany at the moment sees a renaissance of such bands, though here in Poland they're certainly on the left, being straight edge at the least).
Here in the U.S., With the one exception of Youth Defense League, Nazism in hardcore has never been part of the mainstream. S.H.A.R.P. started as part of the New York hardcore scene, and pretty much every major U.S. hardcore band has at least one anti-racist song. (There's even bands like Brotherhood from Seattle who made antiracism/Nazism their main image.
And leftwing/progressive politics have been part of the same for just about as long.
That said, as my name probably gives away, 80% of my musical diet is hardcore of various amounts of heaviness, and the thought of a church built around that gives me a headache.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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