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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: marriage for Roman rite Catholic priests
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Do you think therapists should be celibate too ?
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
My discomfort is not to do with fear that they would share confidences, but whether it is ever appropriate to share intimacy with someone else's spouse. And yes, for me, that has affected the degree to which I have taken Anglican clergy - even when most loved and esteemed as ministers - into my confidence.
Oh brother. Every priest I have ever known will tell you how profoundly boring and ordinary intimacy issues are.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In the Anglican church, pastoral care is often not carried out by priests these days (too many churches to look after), but by ordinary members of the congregation (who may, or may not, have been on special training courses). A large number of these are married, so I can't see why priests need to have special arrangements. But perhaps pastoral care is arranged differently in RC churches?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do you think therapists should be celibate too ?
You beat me to it. I was just about to ask that. And doctors? And lawyers? And Samaritans?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In the Anglican church, pastoral care is often not carried out by priests these days (too many churches to look after), but by ordinary members of the congregation (who may, or may not, have been on special training courses). A large number of these are married, so I can't see why priests need to have special arrangements. But perhaps pastoral care is arranged differently in RC churches?
A large number, probably a majority, of spiritual directors in the Catholic and Anglican churches are lay people, many of them married. Why should that be perceived as a problem?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do you think therapists should be celibate too ?
No but, as I've said above about my psychiatrist, I wouldn't go to one who was a part of my local community and social circle, because I wouldn't want to have to socialise with them and their family.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do you think therapists should be celibate too ?
You beat me to it. I was just about to ask that. And doctors? And lawyers? And Samaritans?
You consult Samaritans on an anonymous basis.
I don't invite people who provide me with medical treatment into my social circle/community. I have had the same neurologist for nearly 12 years now, but I have no idea if he is married or has children. I don't have to consult him in his family home. I don't have to make small talk with his wife and family every Sunday morning. I would hate it if I had to.
And while I'm glad legal professional privilege exists, I can't imagine consulting a lawyer about anything I would consider particularly sensitive.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
My discomfort is not to do with fear that they would share confidences, but whether it is ever appropriate to share intimacy with someone else's spouse. And yes, for me, that has affected the degree to which I have taken Anglican clergy - even when most loved and esteemed as ministers - into my confidence.
Oh brother. Every priest I have ever known will tell you how profoundly boring and ordinary intimacy issues are.
I think you're misunderstanding my meaning. I don't mean the subject of the discussion. I mean that I don't want to have a relationship that involves secrecy with someone else's spouse.
I don't see it as comparable with other professional relationships requiring confidentiality.
I can see that many disagree with me. That's ok. We don't have to agree.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
How is the secrecy different from other the secrecy in other professional relationships ? I am somewhat baffled. As a therapist I have clients discuss with me many aspects of their life - sometimes that does include things of which they are ashamed (sometimes with good reason, sometimes not) or deeply personal and private aspects of their lives including - if appropriate - their sexual relationships. More often how they feel about themselves as a parent, or in relation to others more generally. This would be impossible without the expectation of confidentiality. As it happens I am not married - but most of my colleagues are, and my clients would not necessarily know my marital status anyway.
I have had people state they are limiting what they wish to say to me - but whether I have a partner or not has never been mentioned as a concern. Exactly what our confidentiality rules are, fears about compulsory treatment, shame, what my religious convictions might be - have all come up, but never that.
I am interested in understanding your perspective because it is unique in my experience - and understanding it well may enable to me to provide better or more appropriate advice to people in the future.
[ETA I have on occasion referred people on for chaplaincy support as being more appropriate to their needs. But I don't think we have direct access to a celibate religious professional - though our chaplains have links to the local faith community in the area and could probably find someone if needed.)
[ 27. February 2013, 19:52: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Possibly an aside... but what if confession actually requires us to do so to our social circle?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do you think therapists should be celibate too ?
No but, as I've said above about my psychiatrist, I wouldn't go to one who was a part of my local community and social circle, because I wouldn't want to have to socialise with them and their family.
Well yes, but isn't the problem here going to be socialising with the priest ? Which would happen regardless of whether they had a spouse or not.
I had thought that priests were not meant to make friends with the congregation anyway though.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I had thought that priests were not meant to make friends with the congregation anyway though.
Kind of my thought above... If they aren't, what good are they?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am not sure that there is a clear rationale for community confession.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Not sure I'm talking about community confession... but perhaps it ought to be a bit a awkward? I don't want to apologise to the people I've offended, but I probably should...?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Thing is, a lot of traditional confession would not necessarily be that obvious. In that, you might personally be aware that you could be more generous with your time, or have been selfish on a specific occasion or whatever - but that doesn't mean you have necessarily directly offended someone.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
But precisely: saying it to the community might be valuable?
(And, again, I shudder at the thought...)
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I don't think so - psychologically, boundaries in relationships are important. I don't think a wide group of people can manage that level of vulnerability.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I don't invite people who provide me with medical treatment into my social circle/community.
I used to play bridge at the same club as my GP. We were never best buddies, but would pass the time of day quite happily. I didn't have any great medical secrets, but I don't think it would have bothered me if I did.
You must live in a big city if you can compartmentalize your life that way. When I was growing up, my next door neighbour was a teacher at my school, as were the parents of three of my closest friends. I used to run into another teacher at a church group I went to for a while. My first proper holiday job was as a minion in a local accountant's office, where I found myself checking the accounts of the man who ran the corner shop, and whose son was in my maths set.
Speaking out of turn didn't occur to anybody.
On the other hand, friends who are teachers tell me that they purposely bought a house one town away from their school because they didn't want to meet pupils outside school.
Maybe it's me that's odd.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I can understand not wanting to socialize with someone who has been privy to your innermost issues...but I don't see how that person being married has any impact on that one way or the other.
As for a priest maintaining distance...I never heard of that. I always thought a priest was supposed to be quite close to his flock, and the criticism I hear most often about this or that priest is the absence of such closeness. In this, I do think marriage can play a role..socializing within a community is often a family thing, so a single, celibate priest may have a harder time "fitting in" than one with a family...which is exactly why parish priests in Russia were preferentially married, leaving those who chose a celibate life to function more in monastic communities.
I've had both married priests with children, single celibate priests, and a divorced priest with adult kids (his wife left him..and she did the legal divorce..obviously he can't re Mary and remain an Orthodox priest). I have not had issues with any of them based on their marital status. Any problems I may have had with a priest were purely about other things.
Oh, and one of my childhood best friends married a man who became a priest. Never got used to calling her "matushka". Never had problems socializing with them..but to be fair, her husband was nwver my confessor.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I am friendly (and friends with) many priests. That friendliness stops the minute they put on a stole to exercise their priestly function, be it communion outside of church, confession, blessing of the sick or whatever.
When that exercise of their function is over, normal, social discourse resumes.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
I am friendly (and friends with) many priests. That friendliness stops the minute they put on a stole to exercise their priestly function, be it communion outside of church, confession, blessing of the sick or whatever.
When that exercise of their function is over, normal, social discourse resumes.
Indeed.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
On reflection, I suppose it is easy for those of us outside Catholicism to forget that Confession is, for Catholics, a sacrament. That makes it qualitatively different to a confession to a counsellor or therapist - or friend.
Given the general understanding about the nature of the priesthood within Catholicism - and the fact that the "set-apart" calling to priesthood is so traditionally wedded to the discipline of celibacy - I think I can understand why it feels "safer" if the priest conforms to the traditional expectations of priestly calling. Trust is bound up with the fact that the sacrament is a service provided authoritatively by the church.
I suppose there is another point. The counselling centre I worked for, in common with all centres I know about, had a policy about confession which limited its scope in situations where what was heard in the counselling room might indicate continuing risk to children. The counsellor then has a dilemma - there is a duty of care to the child at risk and the possibility of being called to give evidence. This was all pointed out in advance to clients, but it was sometimes necessary to remind them that we could maintain confidence within the limits allowed by the law. You had to be aware of where the conversation was heading.
Doublethink is right. Without the assurance of confidentiality, coupled with whatever trust has been built up, folks may never confess. It's difficult enough anyway.
Also, I'm not sure whether normal practice in counselling centres is mirrored by psychotherapeutic processes under the direct auspices of the Health Service (I know there is some overlap). Counselling is being made more "professional" for good reasons, but the issues for professionals who have been medically trained and are part of professional medical associations may be a little different.
It is a side issue I know, but it highlights very much the "investment" in the Traditional understanding of the requirement to be a priest.
On the main issue of the thread, I still feel my challenge to the Traditional understanding "from outside" has force. The history of the development of Tradition and doctrine may be understandable, but of itself that doesn't make the understanding correct. The Tradition is testable; it can be weighed. The arguments against it, particularly those which weigh the link between celibacy and personal holiness, seem to me to be very convincing. But then, I haven't lived within Catholicism.
[ 28. February 2013, 17:25: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I don't invite people who provide me with medical treatment into my social circle/community.
I used to play bridge at the same club as my GP. We were never best buddies, but would pass the time of day quite happily. I didn't have any great medical secrets, but I don't think it would have bothered me if I did.
You must live in a big city if you can compartmentalize your life that way. When I was growing up, my next door neighbour was a teacher at my school, as were the parents of three of my closest friends. I used to run into another teacher at a church group I went to for a while. My first proper holiday job was as a minion in a local accountant's office, where I found myself checking the accounts of the man who ran the corner shop, and whose son was in my maths set.
Speaking out of turn didn't occur to anybody.
On the other hand, friends who are teachers tell me that they purposely bought a house one town away from their school because they didn't want to meet pupils outside school.
Maybe it's me that's odd.
I grew up in quite a small town. When I was 18 one of my close friends - an on-and-off boyfriend - died in a car accident. I grieved, understandably, and then I found I couldn't pick myself up. I was preparing for A-levels and university at the same time which didn't help. I went to my GP and I told him this, I wept.
I just got a "there, there, there, try and keep your chin up" from him. He was a close friend of my father's (both Bangladeshi doctors). I know now as an adult, that that GP would *never* have prescribed ADs or therapy for me for a "mental health" issue, eve if it would have been the best thing. Because of his relationship with my father.
20 years on, I suffer from recurring moderate to severe depression and I've had fantastic treatment and manage to control my condition well. But I should have been able to get help through the appropriate channel when I needed it.
People are people. They do blur boundaries. They think they are doing it for the best.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
But precisely: saying it to the community might be valuable?
(And, again, I shudder at the thought...)
I think I agree with Doublethink on this. Some of the criticisms of the NC movement in the Catholic Church have been around the fact that they encourage public disclosure in front of lay-people/the community. I would agree with these criticisms.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
On the main issue of the thread, I still feel my challenge to the Traditional understanding "from outside" has force. The history of the development of Tradition and doctrine may be understandable, but of itself that doesn't make the understanding correct. The Tradition is testable; it can be weighed. The arguments against it, particularly those which weigh the link between celibacy and personal holiness, seem to me to be very convincing. But then, I haven't lived within Catholicism.
If marriage does effect an actual change in a man and a woman - the two becoming one flesh, however we understand that - how then can the man pursue a priestly vocation which is not shared by his wife? I appreciate though that again, this is coming from the Catholic perspective of seeing priesthood as more than a profession.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:]If marriage does effect an actual change in a man and a woman - the two becoming one flesh, however we understand that - how then can the man pursue a priestly vocation which is not shared by his wife? I appreciate though that again, this is coming from the Catholic perspective of seeing priesthood as more than a profession. [/QB]
Well, she does, in many ways. As described elsewhere in this thread, among the Orthodox the role of the priests wife is very significant. Although she can not perform the liturgical and sacramental role, she most certainly does share the ministerial role. No, it's clearly not identical, but why should it be? Spouses rarely have identical roles within a marriage.
In any case, it seems to me that, rather than creating theoretical issues for why priestly marriage can't work, why not look at actual situations where it exists, and see how we'll or poorly it works? I mean, if the Orthodox are seen as too different for a valid comparison, I would think that the Eastern Catholics would serve as a perfect example within a Catholic context. So how does it work for them? Do they feel marriage interferes with their priestly functions? One issue was brought up earlier in this thread..that allowing a married priesthood did not seem to lessen their priest shortage. But that's the absence of a difference...what actual differences do they experience, and are those differences positive, negative, or neutral?
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Erroneus Monk
Interestingly, I do think marriage effects an actual change and I also think priesthood is a vocation (literally a calling), which makes marriage more than a contract (it's a covenant) and priesthood more than a profession. In some sense, I think both are callings. Where I differ from you, i think, is that I do not see them as mutually exclusive.
I suppose another difference between us is that I see the married priest as not necessarily distracted from a priestly calling but that the calling may enriched by the experiences of the marriage. Of course it is knife edged. It may be that for some "I have a wife and cannot come" is a very good judgment to make when considering the reality of a calling. But it may be for others that the quality of the marriage is a source of riches which can be fruitfully "exported" into the other role. That's the import of 1 Tim 3. And it may be that the lessons learned through pastoring may make a priest wiser about the marriage relationship and a better partner as a result. So there can be a "win-win" in both callings. It's just about how you handle the challenges.
I think it is easier to see this possibility of mutual gain now we live in less patristic times. The partnership dimension of marriage has, correctly, assumed a much greater significance.
[ 01. March 2013, 10:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
"Is it even possible to live a celibate life?" asks this article on the BBC News website.
It's an interesting question - what do you think?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
"Is it even possible to live a celibate life?" asks this article on the BBC News website.
It's an interesting question - what do you think?
I would answer yes. Both marriage and celibacy are not without difficulties but neither are impossible.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I suppose it depends these days on whether you think there's anything in the Freudian notion of sublimation. A summary of which might be the one I found in an online dictionary.
quote:
Sublimation:
(Psychoanalysis) (in Freudian psychology) the diversion of psychic energy derived from sexual impulses into nonsexual activity, especially of a creative nature.
Not just about cold baths and hair shirts.
There is a lovely Ursula Le Guin quote which seems also to have something to do with this subject.
"To oppose a thing is to maintain it".
Human sexual desire is very strong, can lead to self-obsessed behaviour. A happily married Anglican priest of my acquaintance was pursued relentlessly by a single and single minded female parishioner to such an extent that in the end he had to seek (and obtained) a restraining order.
Good word, restraint.
Given normal physiology, I suspect the ability to fully sustain celibacy is rare. Some folks have suggested that celibacy (and martyrdom), being rare callings may also be rare spiritual gifts (those whom the Lord calls he also equips). You don't find too many people praying for either of those gifts. "Lord give me chastity. But not yet."?
I believe in the possibility of a helpful divine equipping for a celibate life; also that there may be spiritual disciplines to nurture the gift. But it's a theoretical belief. I got married young and have been married for almost 45 years, so it's just not been a part of my life experience. My understanding of chastity in Catholicism is that either the celibate state or the married state are regarded as chaste, if lived out in accordance with the church's teaching. By that standard, I haven't been chaste either. But I have been faithful to the promises we made to "forsake all others". And I'm sure we've had God's help all along the way in keeping the promises we made.
In general, I think Christian sexual ethics are in need of a spring clean. Realistic talk is needed about how we live responsibly and well with the strong physical desires which arise from the way we're made. There's much misery to be found in both sexual repression and sexual licence.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In general, I think Christian sexual ethics are in need of a spring clean.
Good luck with that! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) You say that because you are a Traditionalist and I say it because I am a Reformer!
If you don't like the spring clean metaphor, how about weeding? I think it's a bit Nelsonian to look at traditional (and Traditional) representations of sexual ethics and say "I see no weeds".
Absent modern understandings of human physiology and psychology, the Church Fathers got it all right? No need to apply a bit of historical critical thinking to how we got to "here", and how good "here" actually is?
I rather think the evidence favours at the very least a willingness to look at "here" and how we got there. Not saying it will be easy. I do think it is desirable.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
My understanding of chastity in Catholicism is that either the celibate state or the married state are regarded as chaste, if lived out in accordance with the church's teaching. By that standard, I haven't been chaste either. But I have been faithful to the promises we made to "forsake all others". And I'm sure we've had God's help all along the way in keeping the promises we made.
Would I be right in interpreting that as meaning no more than a veiled confession to having used methods of family planning that involve more than just the rhythm method?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Cheeky soul! Wondered if someone would ask.
What I have written I have written. I have nothing to confess to either my wife or my protestant spiritual mentor or both. Will that do?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
[ 07. March 2013, 22:37: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
If marriage does effect an actual change in a man and a woman - the two becoming one flesh, however we understand that - how then can the man pursue a priestly vocation which is not shared by his wife? I appreciate though that again, this is coming from the Catholic perspective of seeing priesthood as more than a profession.
As far as I can tell, this can't be a doctrinal issue for the Catholic Church. Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but it's precisely because there are married priests in the Eastern Catholic churches (and now within the Latin Church, with Anglican Ordinariate priests) that the Church has—implicitly if not explicitly—answered your question, either by saying that the wife can share in that priestly vocation in her particular way, or that the two cleaving together and becoming one flesh does not preclude his living out his priestly vocation.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
As far as I can tell, this can't be a doctrinal issue for the Catholic Church.
It isn't. Any Catholic will tell you it is not a doctrine, but a discipline to which exceptions are often made. That is precise the reason that there can actually be a debate about it, weighing the benefits and the implications of the discipline, which would be precluded were it a doctrinal matter.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
"Often made" is incorrect. It should read "very rarely made" (at least as concerns the Latin Church). Not sure what I was thinking when typing that.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Adult humans are know to masturbate in their sleep. So if you succeeded in both not having sex with other people, nor with yourself, then you probably just have more sexually themed dreams.
So I am not sure what would be gained.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
As far as I can tell, this can't be a doctrinal issue for the Catholic Church. Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but it's precisely because there are married priests in the Eastern Catholic churches (and now within the Latin Church, with Anglican Ordinariate priests) ...
There were married priests in the Latin Church long before the Ordinariates. The first in the modern era (IIRC) were in the 1940s under Pius XII - Lutherans who converted.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
As far as I can tell, this can't be a doctrinal issue for the Catholic Church. Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but it's precisely because there are married priests in the Eastern Catholic churches (and now within the Latin Church, with Anglican Ordinariate priests) ...
There were married priests in the Latin Church long before the Ordinariates. The first in the modern era (IIRC) were in the 1940s under Pius XII - Lutherans who converted.
It was the 1950s. Four married former Lutheran pastors were ordained: Rudolf Goethe in 1951, Eugen Scheytt and Otto Melchers in 1952, and Martin Giebner in 1953.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I think that they functioned as priests in Denmark.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I think that they functioned as priests in Denmark.
No, Germany.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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