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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Counting members
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drnick
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# 16065
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Posted
Every article I read about the Pope seems to want to remind me how many Catholics there are in the world. Precise estimates vary, but the figure of 1.2 billion seems typical. Here's an example from the Guardian.
I presume this figure is an estimate of total living people baptised in a Catholic church. And therefore would include people who were brought up Catholic but now belong to other churches, other faiths, or no religion. Clearly (as with all statisics) there is the potential for such numbers to be used in a misleading way.
So: how should church membership / affiliation be defined and counted? And does it really matter anyway? Are there really 1.2 billion catholics, or is just something the media like to justify why it's an important story?
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Posts: 58 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Dec 2010
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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942
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Posted
In the case of the figures being used by the media, I doubt that there's ever anything more to it than a quick internet search, you can be just like a "journalist" too - just click here! 95% of the time that you might see church membership numbers crop up in a secular media article, it's probably just there to establish a little scrap of context. In this case the context is that the average Guardian reader is probably wondering what on earth is remotely newsworthy about a geriatric German taking his retirement.
Unless you had an article by a proper journalist which was actually dealing with this subject of church membership/participation, I doubt any care will be given to this as it's only a trivial detail.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Numbers that are given can only be estimates at best. However good or bad such estimates are they say nothing of a persons faith. Of course, the Church is defined by the Holy Spirit and so no one except God knows the true number of His people.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It is always difficult to guage these numbers correctly, because you have to start with a definition of what you actually mean by "Catholic", and based on that, do a calculation on that basis. Do you mean those who attend a Catholic church (ever? how often?). Do you mean everyone who has been baptised Catholic? Do you mean all those who would self-identify as Catholic?
Each of these requires some detailed counting, something which is not easy to do, and the church is probably not entirely sure how many are Catholics. The reported values are estimates - probably fairly accurate to within 0.1Bn. That is probably as close as it is reasonable to get.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
When the question is asked "How many members does a church have?" the first reply is "Who wants to know and why?" That will help determine the method of census, and if for example, you include those who were baptised post-mortem by their descendants.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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gorpo
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# 17025
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Posted
Anyone who joined by baptism or profession of faith and since then has not died, formally left or joined another church with incompatible beliefs is supposed to be a member.
Here in Brazil the Mormon Church used to claim they had 1,2 million members in 2010, but when the census came out it turned out that it was not even 1/10th of that. Turns out that they were counting each person who ever entered a mormon church including those who were already dead, and some of their ancestors who probably never heard of the mormon religion.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
I think the just shy of 1.2 billion for Catholics are those baptized Catholic (or formally received if baptized in a different Christian denomination) who are not believed to have died. Those who consider themselves Catholic is almost certainly smaller and those who are active Catholics even smaller.
Georgetown has some statistics for both the US and the World
The Pew Forum also has figures but mostly for the US.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
Among certain Anglicans it is common to say the "the third largest church in the world." I've heard that on TV many times. Though I have heard an American newsreader pronounce it "Angelican" on the air--meaning the faith is so inconsequential in the US a news broadcaster had never heard if it.
If you include most of the people of England, huge numbers in Kenya and Nigeria who are counted as Anglican the numbers go up, though I know a Nigerian lady who has never even been to an Anglican worship service but for some reason say Anglican when asked. I asked her why. She said her grandfather was an Anglican.
I was told once and can't find the stats anywhere that by some countings the Episcopal population in the US can be as high as nine million people. This of course is probably the number of people who heard that such a church exists.
I know at least one parish that claims say, 250 members, though in actuality about 30 people give money and if 20 show up on a Sunday, it's a great day. 25 on Easter.
I know RCs the same way. In the very, very Mexican southwest of the US, Mexicans for the most part are either very, very Catholic or VERY, VERY not. Their Christian, not Catholic. The mainline churches are much too Anglo and old, the Episcopal is either "too Catholic" or "not Catholic enough" for many people.
Is Juarez a Catholic city? The RC churches are always full, yet it is the only major city in Mexico that is less than 50% RC. The Bautista, Pentecostal, and New Wine, 7th Day, JW churches are also standing room only. Some people will gladly go to two or more churches who are happy to count them.
Heck, I've at least one person in mine who is defiantly counted as a member of another church.
I think the natural tendency is to inflate membership numbers so they should merely be taken as exaggerated guidelines only.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
I don't have much time right now but I must quickly reply to something.
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I know RCs the same way. In the very, very Mexican southwest of the US, Mexicans for the most part are either very, very Catholic or VERY, VERY not. Their Christian, not Catholic. The mainline churches are much too Anglo and old, the Episcopal is either "too Catholic" or "not Catholic enough" for many people.
I'll have to elaborate another day but I disagree with this assessment. I'm Mexican-American and and I have family scattered across The Southwest: Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, and California. This is not the way I experience my relatives, friends, neighbors and ethnic community. There's a whole bunch of "in-between" here.
quote:
Is Juarez a Catholic city? The RC churches are always full, yet it is the only major city in Mexico that is less than 50% RC.
This is mistaken. Ciudad Juarez is still majority Catholic as mentioned in Spanish Wikipedia:
quote:
La población es mayoritariamente católica, con un creciente número de Cristianos evangélicos (Protestantes)...
That is: "The majority of the population is Catholic, with a growing number of Christian Evangelicals (Protestants)..."
It doesn't have a footnote for that paragraph but elsewhere in the article it cites figures from the 2010 census from INEGI, Mexico's National Institute of Statistics and Geography. I couldn't find a breakdown in percentages but if one compares the number I found for total number of Catholics for Juarez Municipality (918,853) with the population figure from Wikipedia for Ciudad Juarez (1,321,004) which is also drawn from the INEGI site, one can see that Catholics still form a majority of of the population of Juarez.
I have family in both El Paso and Ciudad Juarez so I am familiar with the area.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
Thanks for the update. I was just talking to a seminarian from Juarez (RC). There is a severe shortage of priests. He told me less than half the people are now practicing. But again, the churches both north and south of the river are packed. Even the news anchors have ashes on their foreheads on the air! Wild. I love it.
But the "Christian" churches are packed too. I know a shopping centre that caters to both types. A "Madonna Shop" with rosaries and life-sized Guadalupes, some replete with a kneeling Juan Diego type place and round the corner Faith Bible Tabernacle Books and Christian Accessories.
They seem to present utterly different religions.
About counting. A lady I know was raised Bapitst. (I know plenty of mainline Protestant Hispanic people, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal etc. in my earlier post I was exaggerating to make a point--but this lady had an aunt who would pay for her schooling at a private RC school only if she joined the RC which she did. So she belongs to two, and for a different reason entirely, she is now an Episcopalian. (She and her divorced husband wanted a church in which they could go to Mass and receive the sacraments ).
For people of my acquaintance, belonging to two or three churches is not uncommon. There are also people who feel attached to certain churches but neither go nor support them, but will tell you when asked one another.
In beginning to think the membership numbers are grossly inflated.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jay-Emm
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# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Why would you automatically count most of the people in England?
You do get quite a few people (probably the majority at work) who switch between non-attending Anglican and wanting to reopen the Circus.
It's also bizarre as several have their religious knowledge through computer games. Which does lead to some interesting 'how do I respond moments' (Lilith for one).
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Why would you automatically count most of the people in England?
The CofE is the state church in England, and so a considerable number of people are used to seeing themselves as Anglican even if they have little awareness of Christian teaching, rarely if ever attend church, and haven't been baptised.
Ordinary people's expectations of what a church or a 'vicar' is like are usually based on a culture-bound notions that derive from the CofE. These days the RC priest and the 'fundamentalist preacher' are added to the mix, but the Non-conformist minister is largely absent from popular cultural awarenesss.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Why would you automatically count most of the people in England?
I suppose because without those millions, Anglicans are no longer the third largest group of Christians.
And the RC goes down unless you count millions in Europe, Mexico and Brazil.
Also Orthodox. Surely we all know people who are from "Orthodox" countries who are not in the least bit practicing.
Come to think of it, a lot of Buddhists from Buddhist countries are ignorant of their Belief's beliefs too and so on.
Even in Proddy country, there are people "who became a Christian" during their teens and haven't been back since. I meet a lot who don't know if they're baptised or not.
Counting members must begin to use the same criteria or we're going to be all over the map.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
In the UK religious affiliation is counted in different ways. The government census asks our religion and the count of every affiliation is done.
When it comes to the Church of England (i'm don't know about the anglcan church in the rest of the UK)it counts it members through the electoral roll, people who actually sign up for voting rights. Also once a year a snapshot of actual attendance for a month, is counted by all churches.
Some dioceses have used electoral roll figures or attendance to set parish share, which has sometimes lead to an underreporting of numbers, rather than an inflation of them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21545819 a link to the bbc news website about how Roman Catholics are counted
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Counting members must begin to use the same criteria or we're going to be all over the map.
This isn't possible, because different denominations have different theological criteria for what 'membership' is. They're not going to start using the same definition just to please a secular statistician's desire for uniformity.
Serious statisticians can use a range of different information to decide how many 'Catholics' (or any other Christians) there are. You can count the number of baptised, the number of confirmed, the number of churchgoers (and how often/when they attend), the number of self-confessed believing Catholics, the number of people who claim to be culturally Catholic but no longer believers, etc., etc. All these studies will bring up a different number; but modern life is complicated like that. It's not easy to put people in boxes these days.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our little Church of England A-C shack is revising its Electoral Roll this year, as is the rest of the church AFAIK.
Whatever figure we end up with (54 at the moment, but not really accurately reflecting the current situation - so it makes sense to have a periodic revision!) will at least give us a fair idea of who makes up the 'parish family' - those over 16 who attend church regularly or fairly regularly (even if not particularly frequently), or who are associated in some positive way with our worship and witness. It will not, of course, include those under 16 - who sometimes make up about a third of the congregation at Sunday Mass......and yet they are very much part of the 'parish family'.
We try to be as honest and accurate as possible about our statistics when reporting back to Head Office. This was not always the case in the past, and I obviously can't speak for other parishes, but at least the Electoral Roll can give a fair idea of our local membership. Actual weekly attendance, of course, can vary wildly depending on circumstances (weather, half-term, Sunday Football.......) and for us can fluctuate between 20 and 50+!!
Ian J.
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Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Among certain Anglicans it is common to say the "the third largest church in the world." I've heard that on TV many times. Though I have heard an American newsreader pronounce it "Angelican" on the air--meaning the faith is so inconsequential in the US a news broadcaster had never heard if it.
I think the Assemblies Of God denomination has long passed the Anglican Communion in terms of worldwide membership. Their numbers were estimated around 60 million, and that was 10 years ago, they kept growing strong since then. If they have not surpassed the anglicans in terms of worldwide membership, at least they must have 2 or 3 times as much practicing members.
It is also possible that the Oriental Orthodox Church (not to be confused with Eastern Orthodox Church) has more members then the anglican communion. There are more then 40 million members from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, plus 12 million from the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt, more then 6 million Syriaic Orthodox, Armenia and Erithrea have both national churches with around 3 million members each, plus around 3 million of the Malankara Church based in India. That would put their numbers at around 70 million, even tough these numbers are mainly from Wikipedia (
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ), but not worldwide church membership numbers can be 100% reliable.
What we do know is that churches based on 3rd world countries tend to have much higher levels of attendence and practicing, which means 70 million Oriental Orthodox people easily translate into a bigger number then the supposed 80 million anglicans.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Some dioceses have used electoral roll figures or attendance to set parish share, which has sometimes lead to an underreporting of numbers, rather than an inflation of them.
Is this still the case? I'm interested as every 6 years the Electoral Roll comes up for renewal, when everyone has to come off and then actively sign up to go back on again. I regularly get people asking 'Is there any point me going on the electoral roll?' and I'm not sure how to answer.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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