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Source: (consider it) Thread: Get me to the church on time...
Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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I have been in a number of - mainly Anglican - churches, where the twin questions have been raised of starting the service on time, and people arriving on time to worship.

The church I currently attend normally starts 5 minutes late, or more, and people turn up late even then. In fact one group normally arrive with their helpers some 15 minutes late.

My question here is, how important it timekeeping for a church service? And how important should it be for those attending? The thing is, my current church doesn't seem to lack anything by having a far more relaxed approach to timekeeping, and yet there have been heated debates about how significant it is.

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aig
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# 429

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The Clergy, servers, lectors, intercessors and choir need to be there in good time to start on time. The congo need to arrive in time to hear the Gospel and should stay to the end.
Simples...

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That's not how we do it here.......

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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Gosh! I always thought Anglican churches were sticklers for punctuality! Does your church have lots of ethnic minority attenders?? The Black Majority Churches are known to have a relaxed attitude towards time.

Speaking as someone who has to get to church on foot when most other people arrive by car, I always appreciate a few minutes' grace.

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sebby
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# 15147

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hahaha I once remembered a question at a PCC meeting about services starting on time. The long serving incumbent just replied 'I will not be bound by a clock'.

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sebhyatt

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leo
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# 1458

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Over half of our congregation do not live in the parish so drive in. Parking here is very difficult so many are late because they can't find a parking space.

One could say that they should set off earlier but those with children or elderly relatives know how difficult that can be.

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St. Gwladys
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# 14504

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We have a gentleman with learning disabilties who attends with a carer. This gentleman, R, lives in a shared home. He has autistic tendencies, and it is now part of his routine to come to church. Unfortunately, R doesn't always get up in time and the carers are not allowed to wake him. This means that he sometimes comes in half way through the service, and sometimes only makes it in time for his after service cup of tea. Visiting clergy have to be warned about this, as it could be offputting to see someone come in so late!

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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The Church of Scotland here starts about 5 minutes late ordinarily. Which is still about 10 minutes ahead of the baptists. This is usually justified with reference to our being on an island which is actually around 25 minutes west of Greenwich.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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A church near here has some men who live in a group home and their carers work on the group home's schedule. Somehow that means they often arrive on time but sometimes their ride home comes early and they have to leave when it comes. There have been objections that their leaving, quietly, early is disruptive but the alternative is they don't come at all.

Some people will be late no matter how long you delay. They are perpetually poor judges of how much time it takes, or their lives have disruptions that make it hard to leave predictably on time, or they want to kinda sneak in late to avoid having to chit chat, or being early and sitting around idle is more painful for them than being late, or they don't truly feel welcome so need to kinda sneak in "unnoticed", or they aren't really surer they want to go so preparations take longer, etc.

If people know the actual starting time is ten minutes later than advertized, that's the time they aim for, so delay doesn't change things except convince those who come on time to start coming a little later for the real "on time."

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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the churches I have been at have had interesting ethnic mixes, and also families with children.

Yes, those who are involved in the service should definitely be on time - and early enough to make sure everything is happening. It is congregational attendance that is the question.

I think more liturgically focussed churches tend to run according to the stopwatch. I have always been in the more relaxed evangelical style of worship, where sticking to start or end times is always more optional.

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ExclamationMark
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One thing puzzles me: why are people late for church at 10.30 am on sunday when they manage to get to work and their children by school by 9 the rest of the week? Lie in? Well, you've got Saturday haven't you?

If it says 10.30 then in markland we start at 10.30 - no if's or but's. I'm at church from 9.30 to get ready, be quiet, make myself a cup of tea.

We do have people wandering in up to 15 mins late and some have to leave early if they're on an afternoon shift at the hospital. So what?

I do struggle with people being habitually late for things (not occasionals or one offs). I suppose there's only 2 main reasons - disorganisation or a desire to be seen to arrive. Neither of these are attractive traits.

Lateness can be disruptive esp as some want you to go back over what you've done when they weren't there.

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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849

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I see no reason we ought to treat church differently than we treat anything else in our lives. Gotta be on time to work; gotta be on time to school; gotta be on time to dinner with the in-laws. Why should church be any different?

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The church I currently attend normally starts 5 minutes late, or more, and people turn up late even then. In fact one group normally arrive with their helpers some 15 minutes late.

[Killing me]
We regularly have people turning up 30 minutes late or more, and it has been known for people to turn up solely for the after-service coffee. Also regularly, visitors turn up well ahead of the usual congregation.

I personally hate being late for anything and it annoys me when people can't get their act together enough to make it on time. However, I haven't yet found a way of communicating the need to be on time that is synonymous with the Good News we are trying to stand for, and Jesus doesn't strike me as being a very punctual type.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Over half of our congregation do not live in the parish so drive in. Parking here is very difficult so many are late because they can't find a parking space.

One could say that they should set off earlier but those with children or elderly relatives know how difficult that can be.

Are these folks routinely late to work, too?

--Tom Clune

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leo
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# 1458

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Their work most likely has a car park and they don't take their elderly relatives with them.

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Bostonman
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# 17108

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I feel about this basically the way that I feel about (explicit or implicit) dress codes in church, which more or less lines up with James 2:1-4:
quote:
My brothers and sisters, do you with your acts of favoritism really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ? For if a person with gold rings and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and if a poor person in dirty clothes also comes in, and if you take notice of the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Have a seat here, please,” while to the one who is poor you say, “Stand there,” or, “Sit at my feet,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
Who knows why people can't get there on time? Don't make distinctions between the good people and those ones who show up late.
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St Deird
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# 7631

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Services should start at the time they advertise. Otherwise, they're holding up the entire congregation.

People in the congregation can arrive at whatever time they want to; they're holding up no-one but themselves.

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HCH
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# 14313

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I am not fond of a service starting more than a few minutes late. Why? I don't eat much breakfast before I leave for church, and I am often quite ready for my lunch by the time the service ends.
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Ad Orientem
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I think if we concentrated more on what is going on in our own hearts then other people turning up late would be a non-issue for most. There is a little pharisee inside of all of us, I suppose. I myself have always disliked tardiness so I too find it difficult at times when others are late.
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Twilight

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# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Services should start at the time they advertise. Otherwise, they're holding up the entire congregation.

People in the congregation can arrive at whatever time they want to; they're holding up no-one but themselves.

Perfectly said. Why even post a time if it doesn't mean anything?

All the consideration for people with children, aged parents, carers, etc. pretends they didn't know they had these folks in their lives when they set the alarm clock the night before.

Starting services late is inconsiderate of all the new people who came on time and all the well mannered people who arrived on time and now have to sit and squirm for twenty minutes because the late comers are deemed more important than they are. It's like waiting for the Queen.

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shamwari
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If you live in Zimbabwe as I did then services start when the people arrive, The time is calculated by where the sun is,

In the UK I start on time regardless, And the Zimbabweans who arrive late are greeted by a long meaningful silence while they take their seats,

They have to get to work on time, No reason why they cant get to Church on time.

They are impervious to long meaningful silences

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Lateness is not a sin IMHO, unless you're doing it intentionally for the joy of winding up everybody else--and who does that? Neither is disorganization a sin, or a really lousy ability to estimate time (which i have, so I routinely wind up anywhere from an hour too early to 15 minutes late).

This morning I was way too early for church due to aforesaid lousy sense of time (about half an hour); then thirty minutes late for Bible class due to godchild with unexpected separation anxiety; then half an hour too early for communion preparation; on time for a brief meeting with the Powers that Be; late to English class by five minutes; and ten minutes early to visit my niece after church (had to sit outside to avoid discommoding family by early arrival).

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Doubleposting to add, Mr Lamb has exactly the same problem with estimating space that I have with time. He can' t navigate out of a paper bag, though I am ace at this and can always find my way home no matter where you drop me. Yet he gets commiserated with for getting lost in the backyard, and I get told I have a moral failing. WTF?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Bishops Finger
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A fair proportion of our congregation arrives either at the last minute (i.e. just as we start the introit hymn) or at various stages between then and the Gospel. We don't mind - it's good to see them in church, and we know that most of the latecomers are busy with kidz/elderly relatives/finding a parking space etc. One young mum (complete with 2 year old) walked the best part of three miles through the town to get to Mass this morning, so the fact that she was five minutes late is hardly surprising.....

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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gorpo
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Starting a service late is disrespectful with people who got there in time. And also, there is a serious possibility that some people deliberately got late because they didn´t want to watch the whole service. If people know that there is no parking or the church is not very near their home, they should get up earlier to get there in time. That´s how it works with any other activities in life.
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St Deird
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# 7631

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
And the Zimbabweans who arrive late are greeted by a long meaningful silence while they take their seats,
...
They are impervious to long meaningful silences

In that case, why continue to try the long meaningful silences?

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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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Merchant Trader
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quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
.....And also, there is a serious possibility that some people deliberately got late because they didn´t want to watch the whole service. .....

So.

I dont feel that there is a problem when folk drift in and out of Russian Orthodox services (well who can do 3 hours anyway?).

As stated above there is historical guidence that one should not receive communion unless one has heard the gospel but otherwise what is the real problem? It is better that somone come to worship for a short time than not at all.

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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
Starting a service late is disrespectful with people who got there in time. And also, there is a serious possibility that some people deliberately got late because they didn´t want to watch the whole service. If people know that there is no parking or the church is not very near their home, they should get up earlier to get there in time. That´s how it works with any other activities in life.

How is it disrespectful if no disrespect is intended? Try "annoying" or " personally frustrating"-- some word that does not automatically assume bad intentions on the part of people whose minds you have no way of reading.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Merchant Trader
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
" personally frustrating"

That sounds a good way of putting it to me. The problem is in the mind of the frustrated; we cannot know the circumstances or intentions of the late comer or the early leaver.

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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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As foe the idea that some people deliberately avoid tge first few minutes of service to shorten things--even if that were true, don't you think that is God's business? Surely if he finds this a problem he can deal with it without you taking the role of enforcer, even if only in fantasy. I don't understand why you are putting the worst construction on the situation, contra St Paul. Have you no need for mercy of your own? Eta crosspost! That is not to you, MT!

[ 03. March 2013, 20:01: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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anne
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# 73

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quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Services should start at the time they advertise. Otherwise, they're holding up the entire congregation.

People in the congregation can arrive at whatever time they want to; they're holding up no-one but themselves.

Absolutely - members of the congregation may have all sorts of difficulties getting to Church; anyone who has brought two under fives to a 10 o'clock service has done a days work already and I'm not about to criticise their punctuality.

But those involved in leading the service - clergy/ servers/ choir/ worship band as appropriate - as well as anyone reading or leading intercessions should be there in plenty of time to allow for preparation and vestry prayers before the service. This is not the same as coming into the vestry during prayers and expecting everyone to wait while you drag on your robes.
Explaining this patiently does not, in my experience, have the same impact on timekeeping as just starting the procession on time "ready or not". The next week everybody was, actually, ready!

Anne

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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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If its important to you, you will be there when it starts. If it regularly starts five or ten minutes after the advertised time then that's when people will think it starts.
I just don't buy the, 'Oh, but if you have elderly parents or kids or lack of parking or a bit of a walk then its hard.' It's never hard when they go to the cinema,theatre, pub, restaurant,friend's party, sports event, table quiz, interview or their work or whatever else.

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Staretz Silouan

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Merchant Trader
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# 9007

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
.......... It's never hard when they go to the cinema,theatre, pub, restaurant,friend's party, sports event, table quiz, interview or their work or whatever else.

Oh yes it is!

PS: I DO think services should start on time ( whether or not everyone is there) and if we agree to play a particular role we need to be there for it. But otherwise lets give some slick.

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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
If its important to you, you will be there when it starts.

I think that for at least some of our latecomers, one of the reasons they come to our church is that it is emphatically not like all the other activities you mention, with that sense of duty / urgency / long silent stares from other people.

It's important to them that they don't have to be like that with us.

At the other extreme, you have the kind of church where you bring food to the fellowship meal, and are then refused permission to join others in eating it because you didn't sign up beforehand (true story).

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Jante
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# 9163

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quote:
But those involved in leading the service - clergy/ servers/ choir/ worship band as appropriate - as well as anyone reading or leading intercessions should be there in plenty of time to allow for preparation and vestry prayers before the service.
However when you are a multi parish benifice in a rural area and the 9.30 Eucharist doesn't finish until 10.40 and you are supposed to be at a village upto 10 miles away across country lanes in time to start an 11 oclock service, then being late may not be avoided. Fortunately we are blessed with vllage comgregations who are just pleased taht we turn up for a service and always say to us- the service starts when you arrive!
By the same token we have to leave any church where we have had a 9.30 service after only a brief time to speak to people in order to get to the next church. The joys of rural ministry- which I love by the way [Smile]

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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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I've been in a part of the world where time is unanimously considered to be elastic - they are even late for work, and regularly so; but when it came to church they were never late - not ever. If through unforseen circumstances they found themselves being late they would arrange to go to another church at a later time or go to the evening service (there it was a repeat of the morning one). Not once did I ever see anyone arrive late to a service, and it wasn't that they were keeping others waiting, it wasn't that they brilliant time keepers, they simply believed it wasn't a good thing to keep the creator of all that is waiting (a kind of a moral question).

It was an interesting perspective for me, coming from the West, and a particular part of the West that sees lateness as a sign of rudeness and disrespect. Yet even in that part of the west in which I used to live, there seemed to be personality types that were utterly intent on being late for just about everything and who never understood why people got upset when they were late.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Where I agree with you is that there is a cultural element in all this.

It might be worth debating whether one should keep the Creator waiting - and/or where that should come in our priorities as opposed, say, to being in the right frame of mind or looking after our families' needs.

I also agree that, within cultural bounds of acceptability, services should start and above all finish on time, because that is about showing respect to others. (I somewhere figure that this might one day be reciprocated by people turning up on time, but I'm still waiting).

However, I still think Jesus hardly sets a good example in all this. He's constantly being late for things (at least from a human perspective).

[ 03. March 2013, 21:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
.....Yet even in that part of the west in which I used to live, there seemed to be personality types that were utterly intent on being late for just about everything and who never understood why people got upset when they were late.

Bless them and give thanks for them and don't condemn them

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fletcher christian

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Well yes; maybe the motto of the church universal should be, 'Nobody knows the time or the hour'.....in all things.

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Well yes; maybe the motto of the church universal should be, 'Nobody knows the time or the hour'.....in all things.

[Overused]

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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds

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fletcher christian

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posted by MT:
quote:

Bless them and give thanks for them and don't condemn them

Where I used to live, I didn't have to - society did it for me. I now live in a part of the West where you add an hour to everything. Want to meet at 8pm? You arrive at 9pm. Cinema listing starts at 9pm? You arrive at 9.30pm. You come late to work and you always leave early. It was a hard first year for me.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Vulpior

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I think it's important to start on time. I've seen a perpetuating circle of the service start time dropping back a few minutes to account for latecomers, which in turn takes the pressure off the habitual latecomers, which results in a slightly later start, and so on.

If the service start time is completely impossible for numbers of your congregation, or those who you would like to be members of your congregation, then by all means look at changing the advertised start time. But if you say you're going to do something at a certain time, do it then; that's what people are expecting.

I don't think that latecomers are offended that the service has started on time.

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Jon in the Nati
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quote:
I feel about this basically the way that I feel about (explicit or implicit) dress codes in church, which more or less lines up with James 2:1-4:
Who is doing that? No one is making a biblical issue out of this, largely because it isn't one.

If you have somewhere to be, be there on time if at all possible. If its not possible, then that is okay.

To reiterate: church is no different than work, school, a hot date or dinner with the in-laws in that regard, and it ought to be treated the same.

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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:

I just don't buy the, 'Oh, but if you have elderly parents or kids or lack of parking or a bit of a walk then its hard.' It's never hard when they go to the cinema,theatre, pub, restaurant,friend's party, sports event, table quiz, interview or their work or whatever else.

But how do you know this? Unless you live with them? Because as one of those people I can tell you that it DOES affect every area of my life, fun and work included, and it is therefore demonstrably a real global problem and not intentional disrespect or lack of "care". Heck, I've missed planes for this reason, and the only reason I wasn't late to my own wedding was that I came to church three hours ahead of time. But that strategy doesn't work as an every Sunday gameplan. For one thing, the doors won't be open.

[ 03. March 2013, 21:22: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:

I just don't buy the, 'Oh, but if you have elderly parents or kids or lack of parking or a bit of a walk then its hard.' It's never hard when they go to the cinema,theatre, pub, restaurant,friend's party, sports event, table quiz, interview or their work or whatever else.

But how do you know this? Unless you live with them? Because as one of those people I can tell you that it DOES affect every area of my life, fun and work included, and it is therefore demonstrably a real global problem and not intentional disrespect or lack of "care". Heck, I've missed planes for this reason, and the only reason I wasn't late to my own wedding was that I came to church three hours ahead of time. But that strategy doesn't work as an every Sunday gameplan. For one thing, the doors won't be open.
I sympathise but what's the real issue here? Is it wrong to have to wait 10 minutes if you arrive early? I always carry a book for that very reason.

No one's blaming anyone - but for every person who struggles with being on time, there's someone who finds latecomers disruptive and annoying. If I'm late - am I really happy knowing that I might upset soemone when i ease in? If I'm early who am I going to annoy in the same way? How will I make the weaker person stumble by being on time - I don't insist on everyone being in, there's just bits that they will miss that's all.

If work relies on me being in on time (e.g a bank that has to open at 9 with the staff there) why must slack be cut for those who regularly can't make it?

There was a boy at school who lived 2 miles away and was always late. His parents kicked up a fuss about him being on late report. Some of us had got up 2 hours before him and travel 20 miles and got there on time.

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St Deird
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
To reiterate: church is no different than work, school, a hot date or dinner with the in-laws in that regard, and it ought to be treated the same.

Yes it is.

If I don't show up to work on time, I'll get fired.
If I don't show up to school on time, I'll get a detention.
If I don't show up to a date or dinner on time, I'll have people thinking I'm really rude - deservedly so, because I am being really rude: I'm keeping them waiting.

If I don't show up to church on time, then no-one will care. And hardly anyone will even realise - it's not like they're watching the door waiting on tenterhooks for my entrance.

Frankly, I'd be extremely grumpy about church if I had to show up early or be fired, the way I do for work. Church isn't work, and it shouldn't be treated as such.

Long story short? Different things should be treated differently. Who knew?

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Jon in the Nati
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Well, if the only thing you are worried about is the consequence for being late, then yes, you have a point. If that is how you run your life, then fine.

It is not how I run mine.

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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Well, if the only thing you are worried about is the consequence for being late, then yes, you have a point. If that is how you run your life, then fine.

It is not how I run mine.

If my being late is not going to affect anyone else, why should I be concerned about it?

You might be on time so that you can get virtual merit badges of punctuality, but I'm going to alter my behaviour to suit the people who are affected by it. If they're not going to care, why should I?

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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
However, I still think Jesus hardly sets a good example in all this. He's constantly being late for things (at least from a human perspective).

[Confused] [Confused]

--Tom Clune

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Late for His Second Coming, maybe?

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I sympathise but what's the real issue here? Is it wrong to have to wait 10 minutes if you arrive early? I always carry a book for that very reason.

No one's blaming anyone - but for every person who struggles with being on time, there's someone who finds latecomers disruptive and annoying. If I'm late - am I really happy knowing that I might upset soemone when i ease in? If I'm early who am I going to annoy in the same way? How will I make the weaker person stumble by being on time - I don't insist on everyone being in, there's just bits that they will miss that's all.

If work relies on me being in on time (e.g a bank that has to open at 9 with the staff there) why must slack be cut for those who regularly can't make it?


I'm not asking you or anyone else to cut me slack for it. I have this problem and it creates consequences and I accept them without grumbling. If I get fired for it, I'll not blame anybody but my own stupid ass self. Anymore than I would blame the local paint store for firing me when I turned out to be color blind.

What I AM asking is that you (general you) stop being so righteous about it. If you are not cursed with this disability, why get uppity about those who are? And make no mistake, it is a disability, at least for some of us. Or how else would you describe an impairment that I cannot control, no matter how hard I try, that affects every area of my life, that causes trouble both in areas I care intensely about and areas I don't give a damn about, and that is lifelong?

Believe me, if I could wave a magic wand and make it go away, I'd do so. And it's not so easy as "well, just set your alarm clock earlier." I do that, and I end up in a bad, bad part of town, outside locked doors, reading a book for the better part of an hour while keeping an eye out for the muggers and the rapists. Come on now.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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