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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Get me to the church on time...
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) I'm sure St Paul would have put it on the list if there had been more than one clock in first century Corinth...
We all have clocks with the same kinds of dials on them - it's just that, for some, time has a different meaning than for others.
I totally agree about the social pressure thing. Mind you, if that's your reason why you shouldn't be involved in (whatever), please don't whinge that you don't know/haven't been told/can't take part in it fully - on any occasion subsequent to your decision not to be involved for the best of reasons.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Isn't one reason why you begin a service with a long hymn is to give the stragglers a chance to arrive? Just kidding.
I know we used to have announcements before the service in order to give everyone just a little more time. And they took advantage of it by being just a little later. Now we have the announcements at the end (not my choice).
If people need to leave before a service is ended, that is their choice.
[ 04. March 2013, 16:17: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Isn't one reason why you begin a service with a long hymn is to give the stragglers a chance to arrive? Just kidding.
I thought it was to wake up the early sleepers in the congregation or to allow the priest time to adjust his dress.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Well what a lot of discussion! I think my perspective is that people who turn up on time should not be left sitting waiting, and people who turn up a little late should not feel embarrassed. So, in the place I turn up to, I can sit quietly, or I can chat until something starts. It is too easy, IMO, to see the "formal" service as being the only thing that people come for, or the only important part of the morning (or evening).
There again, if I want to come to a service, in the sense of a communal gathering, I don't want to be waiting to chat for an hour. I want to have some idea of the time it will take, as with many other commitments. So starting somewhere like on time, and advertising an expected end time ( or, as my place does, advertises coffee at 11:30 ), it gives a sense of security.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
we used to have announcements before the service in order to give everyone just a little more time. And they took advantage of it by being just a little later. Now we have the announcements at the end (not my choice).
When we do the notices at the start, the latecomers protest because they wanted to give out a notice!
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]When we do the notices at the start, the latecomers protest because they wanted to give out a notice!
Perhaps they're too lazy to txt or e mail the notice to someone who they know will be there .... tough luck.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Isn't one reason why you begin a service with a long hymn is to give the stragglers a chance to arrive?
Yesterday it gave me a chance to nip over to the organist and filch his copy of the Order of Service - mine had mysteriously disappeared from the lectern (or else I'd left it in the Vestry).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Now if people could do that for work why not do it elsewhere?
Because the way I manage it for work is by getting up too early and, usually, by having to skip breakfast.
Getting to work on time STRESSES ME OUT and means I start the day slightly tired and very hungry.
On days when I am not likely to be fired, I prefer to work at my natural pace, even if it means I'm late.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
If it were a case of competency, surely it could be improved with practice?
"Improved" is not the same as "fixed", though.
For instance, I have a great deal of difficulty in doing paperwork and paying bills. With a great deal of effort over several years, I have managed to improve! Hurrah! So, now, I might pay the bills late, but I know where they are. Which is a huge improvement from back when I used to misplace them in random corners of my house and never see them again.
Similarly, with a great deal of effort, I've managed to mostly get to the stage where I usually remember to turn up for things, rather than forgetting completely. Which is a huge accomplishment for me. I might still be getting there late - but at least I'm actually getting there.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
[QUOTE]Because the way I manage it for work is by getting up too early and, usually, by having to skip breakfast.
Getting to work on time STRESSES ME OUT and means I start the day slightly tired and very hungry.
On days when I am not likely to be fired, I prefer to work at my natural pace, even if it means I'm late.
Ah but that's the thing - is it all about you?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The problem I have with the "if you can do it for work, why can't you do it for God" attitude is that it makes church attendance an obligation, a requirement. I don't accept that even slightly.
If it is not a spiritual obligation then why put it at the same level as work, which is an obligation? Surely accepting that for some people it is better for their spiritual walk to be late is part of the tolerance that Christianity should be showing?
Lets be clear, people can get to church on time. But why put added burdens on people who might already have plenty. And FYI, I am one of those who are early for pretty much everything, have tended to get to church early. But I don't have a problem with people who don't.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Ah but that's the thing - is it all about you?
No, it's not.
When it comes to something – anything – to do with a person's behaviour, the important thing is to consider both (or all) parties involved, and how it will affect each of them.
But you know what?
If we are on a bus, and you ask me to stop singing Bohemian Rhapsody because it's annoying you, then the question becomes about your interest in a peaceful bus ride versus my enthusiasm for singing Bohemian Rhapsody. In which case, all things considered, I should stop singing – because, frankly, your peaceful bus riding overrules my singing.
If, however, we are on a bus, and you ask me to stop breathing because it's annoying you, then I will weigh up your interest in a peaceful bus ride with my interest in getting oxygen into my lungs. And I'll decide to ignore your request – because my interests outweigh them.
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When I am going to dinner with a friend, I weigh up my stress and extra prep time (about an hour's extra prep time, if I don't want to be late) against my friend having to wait for me, and I'll conclude that my stress is worth the lack of hassle to my friend. So I'll make a big effort and hopefully get there on time.
When I'm going to church on a Sunday morning, getting there on time will involve me getting up too early, skipping breakfast, and rushing. If anyone in the congregation happens to notice me entering during the second hymn, they'll probably have forgotten about it by the end of the service.
So, I'll weigh up one side against the other, and conclude that the lack of sleep, lack of food, and massive increase of stress that it would take to get me there on time is worth more to me than the couple of seconds of annoyance that a parishioner may feel at seeing me arrive late.
And then I'll get to church whenever I damn well want.
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Could you please STOP implying that I'm only late because I don't care about other people?
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
we used to have announcements before the service in order to give everyone just a little more time. And they took advantage of it by being just a little later. Now we have the announcements at the end (not my choice).
When we do the notices at the start, the latecomers protest because they wanted to give out a notice!
No sympathy there. It's one thing to be late for a service you are just attending, but completely different to be late for an event where you are fulfilling some kind of responsibility that's part of a leadership role.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
Could you please STOP implying that I'm only late because I don't care about other people?
I, for one, don't.
When I talked about my friends upthread who are habitually late I certainly didn't think it was because they don't care about other people - I know that they do, in many self-giving ways.
I was musing as to how they could do it with such a relaxed attitude. I am a very laid back, easy going person - but there are some things I can't be relaxed about and lateness is one. Drummed into me from babyhood! I am pleased this is so, as I am so very poor at time keeping life would be very hard if I hadn't learned to deal with this deficiency (It isn't my only one as I have dyslexia and ADHD - but I have been a Primary school teacher for 35 years so 'overcoming' has been a lifelong process)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
[QUOTE]Could you please STOP implying that I'm only late because I don't care about other people?
I didn't want to make that connection - sorry if it came across like that.
I accept that I have "issues" in the other direction: being late is a neo pathological fear of mine. Why? Don't know.
I suppose that makes me interested in why some people are unable (for whatever reason) to do what a very large majority seem able to do. [Why for example to take your point, does it take you an hour of stress to get ready to go out with a friend? If so, doesn't starting earlier make a difference or not getting ready to the same degree. I am genuinely interested].
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I suppose that makes me interested in why some people are unable (for whatever reason) to do what a very large majority seem able to do. [Why for example to take your point, does it take you an hour of stress to get ready to go out with a friend? If so, doesn't starting earlier make a difference or not getting ready to the same degree. I am genuinely interested].
In my case, it's called ADHD. When it comes to everyday functioning that involves organisational stuff like timing and getting things done on a schedule, I'm pretty much at the absolute bottom of the bell-curve.
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As for the hour of stress to get ready...
It's midday, and I'm having dinner with my friend at 6pm. In the meantime, I'm going to wash the dishes, water the garden, and read a novel. Then, at 5pm, I'll get dressed, at 5:15 I'll leave the house, I'll get to the restaurant at 5:45, and I'll be 15 minutes early for dinner. Sound good?
So, I start washing the dishes. Except the lid to one of the dishes is missing, so I look for that - and find that it's stuck at the back of the drawer, and as it turns out the drawer's fairly messy, so I sit down and start organising it. And then I pick up one of the dishes, and remember that I'd been planning to make an apple pie in it for weeks now, and I keep on forgetting! I'm not going to forget again - so I put it out on the bench and grab some apples to put next to it, so that I can remember why it's there. Then I decide I should get the recipe book and find out how many apples I'll need, so I hunt for the recipe book, note down the number of apples, realise I'm almost out of flour, add flour to the shopping list, pull out the sugar to make sure I'm not out of that too, and realise that the sugar tin STILL says "brown sugar" when it should say "white sugar". So I find the permanent marker, and bring it over to fix it - except as I turn around I realise that the dishes are still sitting there, and I haven't done them yet. I swear, loudly, and do the rest of the dishes as fast as possible - but it's taking too long, and I was going to water the garden (it's GOT to be watered today - because I haven't remembered to water it all week, and the plants are going to die) so I leave the last load of dishes for later.
I go out to water the garden. I need to put on shoes to go outside, and as I put them on I notice that my last four pairs of shoes are still sitting at the front door, being horribly messy. So I spend a few minutes putting all my shoes away.
...and then I stand there for a few minutes, trying to remember why I was by the front door. Oh yes! Gardening! So I needed outdoor shoes - which I've just put away, so I pull all my shoes out again to find them.
While walking across the lawn, I remember that I haven't checked the letterbox for a couple of days, so I go and grab the mail, walk inside sorting through it, and have just opened a couple of bills when I remember that I'm supposed to water the lawn. I drop the bills on the floor, go out, and grab the hose - which isn't working properly. There's all this water spraying out the tap end. I spend a few minutes experimenting with this, to see if I can figure out what's going on. I can't - but after I water the first flower bed, I go into the garage and grab my spare hose. Then I set that up, and check if it has the same problem. It does - so it's clearly not the hose that's the issue, but the tap head. I go inside and google to see if any gardening sites say anything about what I should do. No luck - but it seems that the local hardware shop is having a sale on gardening tools, so I spend a few minutes checking out their catalogue.
And damn - it's nearly five, and I was going to wash my dishes (yes), and water the garden (yes), and read my novel (no) - where is my novel, anyway? Somehow this takes on extreme importance for me, because I need to tick off my entire list of tasks for the afternoon - forgetting that the novel was only a task because I'd have so much free time. But ANYWAY, I cannot for the life of me remember where I put the damn thing! It's GONE. I crawl under my bed to see if it's managed to fall down there without me noticing, and then stomp around like a madman, getting more and more freaked out until I actually manage to find the blasted book - at which point I realise that I don't have time to read it anymore, because I've got to get ready for dinner.
I manage to track down most of my outfit - except for my shirt which is still waiting to be washed - but I can't find my shoes, and I manage to empty my entire collection of shoes out onto the floor before I remember putting them away this afternoon in the new place that I thought would work better for shoes. (It takes me another 30 seconds to remember exactly where the new place was.)
...and so, once I'm dressed, I'll get out the door, hopefully managing to find my keys on the first try, and after returning once to find the address and a second time to retrieve the handbag that I left behind, I'll hopefully manage to get to the restaurant by 6:15.
I still have dishes to do, I have a drawer of dishes half organised, I have apples and flour on the bench, my second flower bed is still dying from thirst, I have shoes all over my floor, and my bills have slipped under the couch and will never be heard from again. Tomorrow, I'll come home and do the same thing...
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If I want to avoid the above, I will live the ENTIRE DAY waiting for the moment when it's 5 o'clock. I will live my entire afternoon clock-watching, unable to do ANYTHING, at all, because I know from grim experience that the slightest activity can spiral desperately out of control and up-end my day. I will repeat, over and over, every inch of my schedule ("find shoes, wear pink top, get map of restaurant, find keys, find shoes, wear pink top..."), I will wander around my house trying to remember that I'm having dinner this evening, and even though I'm doing this there's still a rather large possibility of me screwing up and getting there late, and THAT'S going to stress me out all day - as is the feeling that I'm a bad friend, that one day everyone's going to get sick of me being so hopeless, and that surely I SHOULD be able to do this if I really, really tried?
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I live my life on the edge of chaos. On a good day, I look pretty normal to most of the world. But I am constantly holding on to normal by the skin of my teeth. Keeping my life organised to the point where I know where my bills are (even though I haven't paid them) and I know I'm having dinner tonight (even though my clothes still haven't been washed) is a huge accomplishment, and I am proud of myself every time I manage it.
[ 05. March 2013, 07:51: Message edited by: St Deird ]
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I don't have ADHD, but what she said. That's normal life for me as well.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I'm quite surprised by some of the attitudes here. Much of it is jugdemental, pharisaical etc. Don't get me wrong, I've fallen to such things before. I've always disliked tardiness and sometimes find it difficult to understand how some people can be such bad time keepers but I think we should try to suppress the temptation to judge people. If we concentrate on our own hearts then people turning up late for whatever reason seems rather irrelevent.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
If the hour of a particular church service is too early for one to be properly organized, it might be worthwhile finding a church or church service where the hour is more convenient. To be under a constant feeling of stress to meet a time I know I don't want or am unable to meet would not be conducive to me, as a worshipper. I'd rather make a habit of being on time for an evening service, than be repeatedly late for a morning service. Most morning services I know are actually around the time of half ten or eleven or later. If that is still too difficult, then evenings would appear to be the natural and rational option.
Of course, some people mightn't have this choice, and/or still prefer their church's morning service, even though late each time. I wouldn't see the point, as an officiant, in making a fuss of it.
In terms of beginning on time. Practically, this is desirable. Officiants often have more than one group of people to serve in the day. Additionally, people who turn up on time should have the use of their time honoured by not starting late. It would be unfair otherwise.
And while St Deird may indeed be guiltless of thoughtlessness towards others, many people are certainly late because they are pretty much indifferent to the others who experience their regular lateness every week, and to the worship dynamic. I know some of our congo members don't feel helped during their pre-confession silence by the sound of heavy crashing doors and footfalls on the wooden floor-boards! We have had to alter elements of our worship to accommodate the every-week lateness of the same small groups of people.
As to that, it has to be said lateness on such a regular scale is pretty normal in this part of Ireland. I'm quite used to ending the service with a handful more of people I started with. And I could even tell you in five minute segments who will appear at which stage of the service. Eg, who makes it for the absolution, who'll be there by the first reading etc.
Frankly, I'm just glad they're there! And, of course, it is their church more than it is mine. Their families have been worshipping there since Adam was a lad. Amazing what you can get used to, when you have to!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
is it all about you?
One might say the same to anyone who gets offended by others turning up late.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
is it all about you?
One might say the same to anyone who gets offended by others turning up late.
Yes, one could. But equally the offended person could say, I was in the middle of my prayer doing what I had come to do according to the service format, and I was prevented by someone who was acting outside of the accepted group dynamic. (Well, they probably wouldn't use that phrasing! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
I'm guessing someone who's watching a play or a movie might feel justified in complaining if their experience was interrupted or ruined by latecomers distracting them, or getting in the way? Well, possibly some people take their worship-time quite seriously, too, in much the same way.
Of course, on the other hand, one might say that distracting late-comers are a great foil for the development of one's capacity for Christian forgiveness!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
If someone disturbing your prayer is the greatest challenge to your capacity for Christian forgiveness in a given day, then I would hope that your thanksgiving and praise for your blessed and happy existence should be truly exuberant.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
If someone disturbing your prayer is the greatest challenge to your capacity for Christian forgiveness in a given day, then I would hope that your thanksgiving and praise for your blessed and happy existence should be truly exuberant.
Yeah, you'd think so ! Though I don't think anyone is claiming that disturbed prayer is the greatest challenge in anyone's day. And of course people who are going through desperate times and seeking some moments of peace and prayer - at a time, location, and specific format designed to enable that very thing - are surely permitted some dismay at having that unnecessarily disturbed.
It's only fair to note, that not everyone who is disturbed unhelpfully in their worship by late-comers is being judgemental and horrible.
As an aside, it does seem strange to have such high expectations of how the on-timers should behave, when our expectations of the late-comers don't even include being on time.
My own expectation of worshippers is basically a vague hope that they merely turn up. Sometime.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well, we are enjoined to forbear and bear with one another's failings and struggles; I can't recall any verse enjoining us to good timekeeping.
I'm sure that the people who find organisation and timekeeping easy have faults and failings in other areas that we chronic late arrivers will be called upon to forbear at some point.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Karl, I'm not disagreeing. I'm pointing out that our decisions have effects on other people. If I decide to ignore beginning and ending times which most others observe, my actions will have consequences on those others. That I'm not a good time-keeper may not be my fault, and it may be desirable I'm late rather than not there at all (my own view!). But it's a little intolerant and unrealistic to think that everyone around me has to be content with that.
And it's true there is nothing in scripture which says 'thou shalt watch the clock'. But it's just plain naive to pretend in ordinary Western culture that our events and activities - including church services - don't have set times for starting. Fair enough if your church's practice is to have approxmimately half an hour or so of musical worship, before drifting organically into a more structured format round about some vague time or thereabouts, where people can float in when it suits. Sounds great actually! But for most it doesn't work that way.
And shouldn't the majority who turn up quietly and reliably week by week be permitted a little consideration, too? I've no time for moaners who's main beef about late-comers is simply an issue of minutes and seconds but even conforming worshippers deserve some respect for their views, surely?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I can't speak for others, but I certainly don't "choose to ignore start and finish times".
I just, despite my best efforts, don't always achieve accurate observance of them. It's not really a matter of choice or decision. I think this is what I find frustrating - some people really don't seem to believe that this sort of thing can be insanely hard for some of us, as illustrated so well by St Deird.
I don't think many of us choose to be this way. We'd love not to, the trouble it gets us in to.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Well, what can I say, Karl? You seem to be saying that because some people through no fault of their own are unable to observe deadlines, it's therefore ungracious of others to make reference to those who choose to ignore time, and the effect that their decisions have on others.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Well, what can I say, Karl? You seem to be saying that because some people through no fault of their own are unable to observe deadlines, it's therefore ungracious of others to make reference to those who choose to ignore time, and the effect that their decisions have on others.
Do you have good reason to suppose that your latecomers do choose to ignore time? How do you know they're not people like me and St Deird?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Mechtilde
Shipmate
# 12563
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Posted
I confess that I am frequently late for church. Most Sundays this is because I have chronic nausea, & mornings are not a good time. If I don't want to vomit in my lap on the way, I will have to just wait till it passes. Yes, I do make it to work on time, because my classes will not start without me. But pulling that off frequently involves medication, the long-term effects of which are uncertain. So I try to avoid taking it on non-work days.
My situation is probably not very common, or even very interesting, in itself. But my point is that you never know. I enter as unobtrusively as possible, & count on the rest of the congo to mind their own business, which at that moment, is worship. I certainly wouldn't dream of expecting anyone to wait for me! And if I had a role up front, I'd be there on time.
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"Once one has seen God, what is the remedy?"
Sylvia Plath, "Mystic"
Posts: 517 | From: The cloud of unknowing | Registered: Apr 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you have good reason to suppose that your latecomers do choose to ignore time? How do you know they're not people like me and St Deird?
You had to ask .
In line with CofI ministry and our generally small congregations, I know our late arrivals very well.
There are one or possibly two cases which could be said to resemble what you and St Deird have described. And I do appreciate that it's not always apparent or recognizable that that is the case.
Other cases say it's hard to get everyone organized on a Sunday morning, because unlike a school/work day, they feel they should be able to be more relaxed and not worry about time. And the main late-comers are farmers who will be the first to tell you they've just 'got into the habit' of leaving church to the last minute, and feel no harm is done by their regular late appearance at worship. They've been regularly late at worship by 17 minutes for the last 25 years; why change now?
Because I know them and understand their reasons, that is why I don't mind our late-comers and it's never an issue - with me at any rate. I certainly don't bring it up, either privately or in worship.
Of course, these are particular examples in a particular church situation. And every church situation will be different or at least varied. But I think that just as some congregation members have to realize that not everybody who's late is being lazy or disrespectful, so perhaps you might have to admit that not everybody who's late has a well-justified reason for interrupting the service to make a perfectly avoidable late entrance!
I find it easier just to not judge either way. I don't need to know if the person is blame-free or blame-worthy. I'm just simply glad to see them full stop. I personally would like everyone to take that view. But one of the points I'm making here is that it's hardly to be wondered at that some people don't. That may be regrettable in some cases, but it's still an inevitable fact.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Oh, agreed. I just wonder if they'd be less upset by it if they actually realised that some of us really, really, don't find it easy and aren't doing it for the borderline sociopathic reasons some people are putting forward on this thread ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
A fair proportion of our congregation arrives either at the last minute (i.e. just as we start the introit hymn) or at various stages between then and the Gospel. We don't mind - it's good to see them in church,....
Same here. I finf it quite relaxing actually. It gives the place a friendlier and less stressful feel than you'd get if everyoine was under pressure to be there at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I see no reason we ought to treat church differently than we treat anything else in our lives. Gotta be on time to work; gotta be on time to school; gotta be on time to dinner with the in-laws. Why should church be any different?
It isn't. If you invite someone to dinner or a party, most people turn up slightly after the stated time. That's expected and normal. Tunring up early is very inconvenent for everybody.
Its work and school that are the odd ones out.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Maybe they see Sunday as a day to relax and take their time?
And why not? After all, the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath...
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
The clincher I think.
Not taht Sunday is the Sabbath of course, its the Lord's Day, notthe same thing at all... but the principle still applies (I hope)
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Now if people could do that for work why not do it elsewhere?
Because the way I manage it for work is by getting up too early and, usually, by having to skip breakfast.
Getting to work on time STRESSES ME OUT and means I start the day slightly tired and very hungry.
On days when I am not likely to be fired, I prefer to work at my natural pace, even if it means I'm late.
Entirely true. Church is not my work, the vicar is not my boss, I do not neeed to treat them as if they are.
Getting up too early in the morning is difficult. It is horrible. It is painful. Sometimes you have to do it, sometimes you don;t. Why inflict it on yourself or others if its not completely neccessary?
And what you and Karl said sounds like a completely normal day to me. Today I think I walked from the bedroom to the living room five or six times in ten minutes to pick up a couple of things I could have done in one trip. And I forgot to turn the washing machine on as I left for about the fifth time in two weeks. And I was more awake than on a normal morning because I had had much more sleep than usual yesterday and I'd been lying in bed listening to the radio for an hour or so so I was almost fully awayke when I got up (Almost, noti quite, I didn;t really wake up till after I'd left the flat and got to the station. but that's an improvement on a normal work morning when I tend to wake up properly sometime after I arrive at work)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
I have ADHD and have learned timeliness. I realize how difficult that can be for some people.
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I suspect that for most of us who have trouble getting to church on a Sunday morning the issue is nothing like what St. Deird or K:LB are discussing. On my own I am very timely and it matters a lot to me. However, I have two children, and getting t hem out the door in a timely fashion without meanness is hard. Often I end up plumping for a happy Sunday morning and tardiness.
Also, I don't, thank god, live a life where exact timing matters most of the time. At work, I come to work in an approximate window and the only downside to coming later is that I have to stay later and miss the ideal transit window. No one is annoyed at me at all. In fact, I can't think of anywhere I go regularly but church where an exact arrival time is that essential. Well, my Tae Kwon Do class, but I am always quite early for that these days as I come from work and there is some time in between.
[ 05. March 2013, 14:28: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I generally arrive about an hour before Mass; earlier if there's a lot of setup or other work to be done.
Normally I delay the start of services about 5 minutes. Even with that delay, there is always a larger number of people in the pews when I turn around for the Gospel than when I turn around for the Summary of the Law. That's the way it goes, and it serves no purpose to become indignant about it.
I am much less offended by tardiness, by the way, than I am by people who do the "Judas walk," i.e. cut out immediately after they've received Communion.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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MarsmanTJ
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# 8689
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Posted
I think there are 5 cardinals who a number of Catholics might consider are being rather tardy at the moment...
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
I'm surprised by talk of noisy banging of doors by latecomers in the middle of quiet prayers. I was taught from early that when late you enter only during hymns, never during prayers. One can't always be on time (well Grandma was, but only after she no longer had kids at home) but one can always be aware of appropriate times, like chatting during the commercials not during the show on TV.
But sometimes Ship discussions give me the impression church is supposed to be only for people who arrive on time and stay the whole time and wear the right clothes and sing on pitch and don't have babies or children and never cough or sneeze, because anything else is disruptive.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm surprised by talk of noisy banging of doors by latecomers in the middle of quiet prayers. I was taught from early that when late you enter only during hymns, never during prayers. One can't always be on time (well Grandma was, but only after she no longer had kids at home) but one can always be aware of appropriate times, like chatting during the commercials.
As a fairly frequent latecomer to lunchtime Mass, I notice that many of my fellow latecomers were not taught that lessons or have since forgotten it, unfortunately.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm surprised by talk of noisy banging of doors by latecomers in the middle of quiet prayers. I was taught from early that when late you enter only during hymns, never during prayers.
Our door stewards ask late comers to wait 'till the next hymn, then open the door for them when the first verse is in full swing. It is very much the way things are done at our gaff. So disruption is minimal.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
As someone who was late for work once at age 17 (because my ride didn't show-up) and never again in spite of all the usual problems of a child, blizzards, falls down stairs, etc. and as someone who has never even once been late for church, it's been a mystery to me why some people are chronically late Sunday after Sunday.
It all always seemed like a simple matter of setting the alarm to allow enough time for all you know you have to do plus another half hour or so for the unplanned events of a child's missing shoe or heavy traffic.
I thought that if someone was chronically late for church, it must mean they didn't think that it had as much importance as their job. That while one's job was deserving of a certain amount of clock watching, one's church was not. I had thought that arriving on time was a sign of respect for fellow worshipers as well as the people at the front who had planned and practiced the service as a whole. Most of all, being on time, was a sign of respect for God, as the one you've come to worship, placing him above your boss, lunch date or movie start.
I now see some very different views on the whole thing and I must say that if I believed as strongly that the Sabbath was only about me and my pleasure, I would stay home and eat doughnuts. So hats off to those of you who feel that way and show up at all.
At least I'm glad to learn that the noisy late comers who are throwing off the atmosphere of reverence and the rhythm of the service are not as I always imagined, cringing inwardly with apologetic embarrassment, oh no, they're looking at those of us in the pews and sneering "Pharisees!" to themselves.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
God alone knows where you got to the conclusion in your final paragraph from what anyone's posted on here, Twilight. Certainly my attitude is one of slight embarrassement that I'm late once again and a desperate wish that I could be as organised and together as those people who are never late, but which I seem no more to be able to achieve than to change my hair colour by will power alone.
[ 06. March 2013, 12:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
God alone knows where you got to the conclusion in your final paragraph from what anyone's posted on here, Twilight.
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:I'm quite surprised by some of the attitudes here. Much of it is jugdemental, pharisaical etc.
To name one. There have been several charges of "judgmental," and "pharisee." on this thread. It's in the time honored tradition of those who want to do whatever the heck they want while keeping a sharp eye out for a raised eyebrow so they can quickly deflect blame to that person.
There were also more than one mention of Paul's admonition to treat poor church members the same as rich ones, stretched to include treating late people the same as punctual ones. If it comes down to scripture wars I would think the person who wasn't dressed properly for the wedding was a closer analogy to the late comer. In that case, as this, it wasn't about money it was about respect.
Not that I think being late for church is such a terrible thing, just that being annoyed by it isn't that bad either.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I don't think that the accusation of phariseeism or judgementalism was levelled at those who arrive on time. Just that minority who seek to use their skills of personal organisation and punctuality to feel spiritually and morally superior to the poor buggers who struggle with it.
And what's this "do whatever they want" shit? For the umpteenth time PEOPLE LIKE ME DO NOT GET TO THINGS LATE ON FUCKING PURPOSE!
[ 06. March 2013, 14:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
This ought to be an easy one really. The Gospels make it clear that God gives the same to those who turn up late in their lives as to those who've been there since clocking on time. It also seems pretty clear that the line "But that's not fair - I made the effort to get here on time, so I should get more pay" falls on deaf ears.
If God can not only tolerate someone turning up several decades late, but bless them equally as those who are "on-time" he can also not only tolerate, but bless equally, those who are minutes late for Mass.
That we can't do the same is because we're not as good at love as He is.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Did any of the puctual people say anything about getting more pay or deserving more of anything at all?
You're citing a parable about the free gifts of grace and charity. We're not talking about those things at all. No one is talking about what God gives to any of us, we're talking about common courtesy one human owes to another.
You've just proved my point of how hard some people are working here to make their rude lateness everyone else's fault. First the punctual ones were judgmental, then they were pharisees, now they're denying God's grace to people who don't work long hours. (Those laborers weren't late, they were hired later in the day.)
As for your lateness being beyond your control -- I'm not buying it. If you can make it to work on time you can make it to church on time at least the majority of times. Keep in mind we're talking about the chronically late, not the family who rushes in late a few times a year.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Twilight - I do my absolute best to be on time. I frequently fail. And you want to condemn me for being "rude".
Thanks so much. I so need that. I so need to know that I've failed everyone by having this difficulty.
No-one's passing blame onto anyone here; I don't blame the people who are there on time for anything. But I'd thank those few who want to look down on me because I'm not as brilliant and clever and punctual as them to not do so. That is all. Just accept that I find this hard.
I manage it most times, but not always. What I'm unwilling to do is second guess and judge those who fail more often. I don't know the reasons, and what would be really rude would be assuming that I do and condemning them for it.
[ 06. March 2013, 16:08: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Twilight - I do my absolute best to be on time. I frequently fail. And you want to condemn me for being "rude".
Thanks so much. I so need that. I so need to know that I've failed everyone by having this difficulty.
No-one's passing blame onto anyone here; I don't blame the people who are there on time for anything. But I'd thank those few who want to look down on me because I'm not as brilliant and clever and punctual as them to not do so. That is all. Just accept that I find this hard.
I manage it most times, but not always. What I'm unwilling to do is second guess and judge those who fail more often. I don't know the reasons, and what would be really rude would be assuming that I do and condemning them for it.
And more from Karl: quote:
Just that minority who seek to use their skills of personal organisation and punctuality to feel spiritually and morally superior to the poor buggers who struggle with it.
And what's this "do whatever they want" shit? For the umpteenth time PEOPLE LIKE ME DO NOT GET TO THINGS LATE ON FUCKING PURPOSE!
Karl? You're not passing blame? You've accused some of us of; passing blame, claiming to be more brilliant and clever, feeling spiritually and morally superior, judging others and condemning others.
I have done none of those things. All I did was call you rude. The same way I call someone rude if they eat with their mouth open. I know people who eat with their mouth open who are superior to me in every way but it's still rude of them to eat with their mouth open. Not morally inferior, stupid, unworthy of God's gifts, or condemned to Hell. Just rude.
I think you do get to things late ON PURPOSE, most of the time. Sure, some days you might fall in the mud, accidentally, on the way to the car and have to go back and change your pants. Most of the time, though, I'm betting you hit that snooze alarm on purpose, you had that second cup of tea on purpose, you watched the rest of that interesting bit on the news on purpose and you allowed yourself to do it because, in the back of your mind, was the thought that it didn't really matter, it was only church, and if it disturbs the people who are there praying then who cares, they're just uptight control freaks.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm betting you hit that snooze alarm on purpose, you had that second cup of tea on purpose, you watched the rest of that interesting bit on the news on purpose and you allowed yourself to do it because, in the back of your mind, was the thought that it didn't really matter, it was only church, and if it disturbs the people who are there praying then who cares, they're just uptight control freaks.
You clearly don't understand distractable folk. We get distracted by something then there is no 'back of the mind', all is focussed on what we are doing.
I can walk into a room to do something essential and end up grooming the dog/cleaning the windows/taking a complicated photo ... you name it. It's like the thing I had to do disappeared.
This kind of distractability takes huge effort to overcome. It can certainly be done, as I said upthread, but it is not easy and needs constant work and strategies.
[ 06. March 2013, 17:05: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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