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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Does religion cause wars?
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Michael Snow
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# 16363
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Posted
Charles Spurgeon's take: "…The Lord Jesus Christ is our peace in a second sense, namely, in making peace between nations. That there are wars in the world at the present time is not the consequence of anything that Christ has said, but of the lusts of our flesh. As I understand the Word of God, I always rejoice to find a soldier a Christian, but I always mourn to find a Christian a soldier, for it seems to me that when I take up Christ Jesus, I hear one of His Laws, “I say unto you, resist not evil...."
http://spurgeonwarquotes.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/christ-our-peace-2/
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http://spurgeonwarquotes.wordpress.com/
Posts: 62 | From: S. Dak./ Romania | Registered: Apr 2011
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Snow:
That there are wars in the world at the present time is not the consequence of anything that Christ has said, but of the lusts of our flesh.
Seems to me that the evil that starts wars is not of the flesh but of the spirit - pride, envy, the desire to impose one's own will on others which is the will to power.
You're right that the Words of Christ do not start wars.
Where religion is baneful is when it baptises the will to war. If your nation and another are simply disputing territory, then an agreed compromise may be a good-enough low-risk outcome for both sides. If you're crusading against the Evil Empire of the Infidels led by the Great Satan, then such compromise is seen as sinful.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
To me all wars are to do with money and power. Religion may be an enabler or an excuse but the underlying cause of wars is money or power.
Something upon which we largely agree.
I also don't think that religion causes wars though the list of causes may be wider than just money and power - but it sometimes provides an excuse for those who are intent upon conflict, has been used as justification for horrendous crimes and is often mercilessly manipulated to motivate the cannon-fodder. (True believers don't jump into foxholes).
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
True believers don't jump into foxholes.
Is this to say that 'true' Christians don't join the army?
One of my interests is church history from a social perspective, and I was interested to hear that Methodist soldiers had a particular presence in the British army in the 18th c. One book on my to-read list is Michael Snape, 'The Redcoat and Religion: The Forgotten History of the British Soldier from the Age of Marlborough to the Eve of the First World War'. (The same author's written another book called 'God and the British Soldier: Religion and the British Army in the First and Second World Wars'.)
But to me, the funny thing with the 'religion = war' thing is that it only seems to work with men. Women are often said to be the more religious sex, but women's religiosity supposedly makes them docile, not war-hungry. How weird is that?!! It's a funny old world.
[ 23. March 2013, 17:21: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
True believers don't jump into foxholes.
Is this to say that 'true' Christians don't join the army?
No it’s a rather trite response to the even more trite “There are no atheists in foxholes” which often gets trotted out in such discussions (though not, I hope, on such distinguished sites as SoF). The hypothesis being that anyone who truly believes that their deity has a plan for them will know that the deity will protect them even when they charge into a hail of bullets. Anyone who seeks to avoid said bullets is, if not a full blown atheist, less than a true believer. Then we get surprised when devout religious people are manipulated into doing things like flying aircraft into buildings.
quote:
But to me, the funny thing with the 'religion = war' thing is that it only seems to work with men. Women are often said to be the more religious sex, but women's religiosity supposedly makes them docile, not war-hungry. How weird is that?!! It's a funny old world.
Testosterone versus child-rearing instincts? Too simplistic of course but perhaps a contributory factor?
Actually – I’m not sure that your analysis is correct. Traditionally women’s’ roles tended to preclude active service (though Joan of Arc got her way didn’t she and QE1 was known to rally the troops) but I think you’ll find that women have often played major roles in encouraging their menfolk to fight in conflicts which at least had a religious element (perhaps most conflicts have some religious angle?). An historian’s knowledge might be handy but I think of those who handed out white feathers during WW1 and those women who were much feared by military/police personnel during the troubles in Northern Ireland. There have also been several female suicide bombers in recent years. Female members were active in such as the Red Army Faction ( Baader-Meinhof Gang ) during the 1970s and 80s. (Meinhof was not considered a leader but she certainly played an active role).
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
“There are no atheists in foxholes” [means] that anyone who truly believes that their deity has a plan for them will know that the deity will protect them even when they charge into a hail of bullets. Anyone who seeks to avoid said bullets is, if not a full blown atheist, less than a true believer. Then we get surprised when devout religious people are manipulated into doing things like flying aircraft into buildings.
Ah. That's interesting. To me, this phrase means that when faced with potentially fatal danger on the battlefield, every soldier hopes that God will save him, even if he publicly claims not to believe in God. I've never taken it to mean that that Christian (or Muslim, etc.) soldiers don't or shouldn't experience fear.
quote:
I think you’ll find that women have often played major roles in encouraging their menfolk to fight in conflicts which at least had a religious element (perhaps most conflicts have some religious angle?). An historian’s knowledge might be handy but I think of those who handed out white feathers during WW1 and those women who were much feared by military/police personnel during the troubles in Northern Ireland. There have also been several female suicide bombers in recent years. Female members were active in such as the Red Army Faction ( Baader-Meinhof Gang ) during the 1970s and 80s. (Meinhof was not considered a leader but she certainly played an active role).
Oh, I don't doubt this influence and participation. But it's not generally seen to be the result of an outpouring of female religiosity, except in a few notable cases.
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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
“There are no atheists in foxholes” [means] that anyone who truly believes that their deity has a plan for them will know that the deity will protect them even when they charge into a hail of bullets. Anyone who seeks to avoid said bullets is, if not a full blown atheist, less than a true believer. Then we get surprised when devout religious people are manipulated into doing things like flying aircraft into buildings.
Ah. That's interesting. To me, this phrase means that when faced with potentially fatal danger on the battlefield, every soldier hopes that God will save him, even if he publicly claims not to believe in God. I've never taken it to mean that that Christian (or Muslim, etc.) soldiers don't or shouldn't experience fear.
That is what people who use it mean by it – it’s silly of course and the alternative I suggested is also simplistic. I know a man who was one of the last four (possibly the last) member of Bomber Command to drop a bomb on Nazi Germany. He was shot down during his second tour (first tour was thirty ops) in Halifaxes, evaded with the help of the resistance for five months, got back to England and went back to flying (Mosquitos this time). He will tell you that the experience of being in an airborne foxhole was the most convincing evidence he ever knew for the absence of a divinity.
quote:
I think you’ll find that women have often played major roles in encouraging their menfolk to fight in conflicts which at least had a religious element (perhaps most conflicts have some religious angle?). An historian’s knowledge might be handy but I think of those who handed out white feathers during WW1 and those women who were much feared by military/police personnel during the troubles in Northern Ireland. There have also been several female suicide bombers in recent years. Female members were active in such as the Red Army Faction ( Baader-Meinhof Gang ) during the 1970s and 80s. (Meinhof was not considered a leader but she certainly played an active role).
Oh, I don't doubt this influence and participation. But it's not generally seen to be the result of an outpouring of female religiosity, except in a few notable cases.
Since I’m not sure that religion is often a reason why men start wars either I question whether there is any great variation between men and women in this respect. I do know that religion is used as an excuse to start/prolong/glorify war and as a means (amongst others) of desensitising the combatants.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I know a man who was one of the last four (possibly the last) member of Bomber Command to drop a bomb on Nazi Germany. He was shot down during his second tour (first tour was thirty ops) in Halifaxes, evaded with the help of the resistance for five months, got back to England and went back to flying (Mosquitos this time). He will tell you that the experience of being in an airborne foxhole was the most convincing evidence he ever knew for the absence of a divinity.
Yes, I'm sure there were many combatants and civilians who suffered the horrors of WWII and were left as convinced atheists as a result. 'There are no atheists in foxholes' is a dangerously sweeping generalisation that forgets how warfare can undermine faith as well as bolstering it.
Of course, this challenges the idea that religion inevitably desensitises the soldier to warfare. If we're talking about early modern and modern societies in the West, where cannon-fodder are often men from the lowest classes of society rather than being every able-bodied man in the tribe, they're unlikely to be the most religious types, on the whole; warfare may boost up their sense of patriotic religiosity, but this isn't their normal modus operandi. The long term result may be a sense of disengagment from and cynicism about religious doctrines and institutions. Historians have often said as much about WWI and WWII.
The truth is probably a mixture of factors. It's quite possible that an atheist might pray in his foxhole, but on later reflexion he might find his atheism strengthened. Other atheists might already have arrived in the warzone with a robust and sophisticated philosophy of life to replace religion. Some soldiers, whatever their beliefs, may already have decided that death in battle is a glorious destiny, in which case praying to be saved would be pointless.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
My grandfather came back from WWI cursing officers and clergymen, and did so to the end of his life. In fact, if a vicar or any other minister knocked at the door, which they still did in those days, he practically had to be held down in the chair, as he would become enraged and vociferous. I reckon all the ministers of the town knew his address! I don't think he was the only one of his comrades like that either. He said that the officers treated them like dogs, and the clergy just slapped them on the back as they went over the top.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
The hypothesis being that anyone who truly believes that their deity has a plan for them will know that the deity will protect them even when they charge into a hail of bullets. Anyone who seeks to avoid said bullets is, if not a full blown atheist, less than a true believer.
Well, there are some that believe the "plan" does not extend to when and where they will shuffle of to the pearly gates. Free will and all that. Or as one friend put it. "Yeah, I'd love to meet Jesus, but I prefer to enjoy the anticipation a bit longer."
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
The hypothesis being that anyone who truly believes that their deity has a plan for them will know that the deity will protect them even when they charge into a hail of bullets. Anyone who seeks to avoid said bullets is, if not a full blown atheist, less than a true believer.
Well, there are some that believe the "plan" does not extend to when and where they will shuffle of to the pearly gates. Free will and all that. Or as one friend put it. "Yeah, I'd love to meet Jesus, but I prefer to enjoy the anticipation a bit longer."
Or, as my mother used to say before doing something she felt her deity had failed to undertake for her, "God helps those who help themselves". We both heard the same words but chose to interpret them differently.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Just posted your sig on my church FaceBook page 'aitchDubbyeR.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
I was half watching a programme about the origins of Islam today . What came across strongly was the unifying power of this new faith, and how it suppressed the continuous feuds and tribal wars occurring among different factions over water supplies and such like.
Maybe we're being a bit hard on ourselves as to just how big a part religion plays with regards to human violence. A factor yes . The exclusive cause no.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Mere Nick
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# 11827
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Posted
The Borg is a unifying power, too. Unifying can be good or bad, depending on the terms.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Snow:
[qb]Seems to me that the evil that starts wars is not of the flesh but of the spirit - pride, envy, the desire to impose one's own will on others which is the will to power.
Well, consider Sudan. The southern portion has most of the oil and is predominantly dark skinned Christian. The northern part is more barren and predominantly Arab Muslim. When Arab Muslims send ruthless paramilitary groups against black Christian communities, is that a matter of spirit or flesh? Sure, they want control, but they also want the money and the power that goes with it.
I'm not sure the spirit and flesh are so easily picked apart.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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