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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The souls of the faithful...
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Do you think it important to pray for people when they die? If so, why? I know there are all kinds of ideas about life after death, and I know what the Bible and tradition say, but before I came to faith I was very influenced by secular ideas.
Having lost a pet today, and given it a 'decent burial', I'm wondering whether its spirit will live on, and having prayed for it I wonder about all those, human and other animals, who are never the beneficiary of prayer.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I believe it can be efficacious; I don't think the Two Big Churches have ever taught it's not; but when it comes right down to it, what could it hurt?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Offhand, I don't see how anything we can say or do could have any effect on the spiritual state of a deceased person. On the other hand, as Mousethief said, what could it hurt?
On the third hand (we come plentifully supplied with appendages), I can imagine someone committing despicable acts and then arranging by deception to have numerous virtuous people pray for his soul after he is gone. If their prayers actually help, then he has gotten away with evil. If their prayers do not help, he has lost nothing. Of course, the fact that they are praying for him might have beneficial effects on them.
Perhaps it is this last point that matters: if you are praying for someone else's soul, you may be doing your own soul some good. I doubt that villains ever pray for the souls of others.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Hmm, I hadn't thought of a get out of jail free card, but I see what you mean. Perhaps it's like Luke 10.6 which says that peace will return to you if it doesn't rest on them?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Here's the thing. When a person dies, they may be a christian, they may have lived a good life, but normally they are not perfect - so how do we get from our imperfection at death - a mixture of good and bad, if we're honest - to being a citizen of heaven?
That's what praying for the dead is all about - that God might have mercy on the deceased person's shortcomings which are still part of their nature when they die.
As for haminals - well, I don't know if it's necessary to pray for them but, as mousethief says, what could it hurt?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gextvedde
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# 11084
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Posted
I'm not sure what prayer does for the dead (but then I'm not always sure what it does for the living). The times I've been in prayer for the dead was more for my benefit than theirs if I'm honest. They had gone and I wanted to talk to God about them.
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It seems to me that God responds to prayer in his own way and at a time of his choosing; I see no logical reason why his response should necessarily come after we pray. Could it not be that whatever impact our prayers for those who have died have, that impact was prior to death?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It seems to me that God responds to prayer in his own way and at a time of his choosing; I see no logical reason why his response should necessarily come after we pray. Could it not be that whatever impact our prayers for those who have died have, that impact was prior to death?
I suppose that's one way of looking at it, but there's a lot we don't understand about what happens between death and the General Resurrection. We cannot expect to understand much, except that big gulf between what we should be and what we actually are at the point of death - and how, in God's time we might, in His mercy, bridge that gulf.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Having lost a pet today,
My condolences - We had to have our dog put down a few days ago, a trusting, gentle, re-homed, terrier ( Parsons Jack Russell-ish ) companion of eight years. She had an internal lump the size of an egg - we did the right thing by her but I really don't understand why anyone might want to talk about her to something that, in the unlikely event that it exists, couldn't be bothered to give her a dignified end.
Sorry - it still bloody hurts.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Having lost a pet today,
My condolences - We had to have our dog put down a few days ago, a trusting, gentle, re-homed, terrier ( Parsons Jack Russell-ish ) companion of eight years. She had an internal lump the size of an egg - we did the right thing by her but I really don't understand why anyone might want to talk about her to something that, in the unlikely event that it exists, couldn't be bothered to give her a dignified end.
Sorry - it still bloody hurts.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Having lost a pet today,
My condolences - We had to have our dog put down a few days ago, a trusting, gentle, re-homed, terrier ( Parsons Jack Russell-ish ) companion of eight years. She had an internal lump the size of an egg - we did the right thing by her but I really don't understand why anyone might want to talk about her to something that, in the unlikely event that it exists, couldn't be bothered to give her a dignified end.
Sorry - it still bloody hurts.
Death always hurts HughWillRidmee - be it animals or humans, and be it believers or atheists/agnostics.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Here's the thing. When a person dies, they may be a christian, they may have lived a good life, but normally they are not perfect - so how do we get from our imperfection at death - a mixture of good and bad, if we're honest - to being a citizen of heaven?
That's what praying for the dead is all about - that God might have mercy on the deceased person's shortcomings which are still part of their nature when they die.
As for haminals - well, I don't know if it's necessary to pray for them but, as mousethief says, what could it hurt?
My prayer for the dead has never been about their shortcomings, always a request for God to embrace them, whether human or other animals, and to give thanks for their lives. Perhaps that amounts to the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidMeee: My condolences - We had to have our dog put down a few days ago, a trusting, gentle, re-homed, terrier ( Parsons Jack Russell-ish ) companion of eight years. She had an internal lump the size of an egg - we did the right thing by her but I really don't understand why anyone might want to talk about her to something that, in the unlikely event that it exists, couldn't be bothered to give her a dignified end.
Sorry - it still bloody hurts.
It does hurt, and I'm sorry to hear of your loss and of your lovely dog's suffering. No words will help, let alone words about the God you don't believe in. I hope this thread didn't press the wound, and will leave it to rest in peace now.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It does hurt, and I'm sorry to hear of your loss and of your lovely dog's suffering. No words will help, let alone words about the God you don't believe in. I hope this thread didn't press the wound, and will leave it to rest in peace now.
Thank you - but don't let me derail your thread. Ultimately you seem to be questioning whether prayer can make a difference other than to the one who prays. It does seem unlikely that a good god would do better because people talk to it doesn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Death always hurts HughWillRidmee - be it animals or humans, and be it believers or atheists/agnostics.
Thank you – The hurt is due partly to my selfish wish for the comfortable habit of her presence and for the arrogant loss of being important to a creature that depended on me for walks etc.. but it’s also partly anger that she deserved a better end. I might not merit anything better, but she did nothing to deserve such an indignity and that, I think, is a just cause for anger. Perhaps it's one of those occasions when believers have it easier - they at least have something to blame.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Thank you - but don't let me derail your thread. Ultimately you seem to be questioning whether prayer can make a difference other than to the one who prays. It does seem unlikely that a good god would do better because people talk to it doesn't it?
Re. the supposed point of the thread, whether prayer can make a difference other than to the one who prays, I suppose the first thing to consider is what the person prays for in the first place.
Amongst protestants, it is common to hear things like "we are praying for the family." And the family themselves are encouraged to pray "for God's strength" (for themselves), but never for the person who has died. Hence, sadly, the deceased person is often quickly forgotten.
I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where we are specifically told we shouldn't pray for the dead. I suspect it is a sort of tradition which has grown up within protestantism, and now defines it.
Re. Catholic and Orthodox (and some Anglo-Catholic), I guess they are hoping for exactly what they are asking of God - that their prayers will be effectual towards the persons (now passed away) being prayed for.
Re animals, the reason I say there may be no need to pray for them is because they seem to have no sense of sin to deal with. But certainly there are plenty of Bible references which infer that we will have animals around us in the next life - it won't just be us on our own sitting on clouds playing harps.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Amongst protestants, it is common to hear things like "we are praying for the family." And the family themselves are encouraged to pray "for God's strength" (for themselves), but never for the person who has died. Hence, sadly, the deceased person is often quickly forgotten.
I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where we are specifically told we shouldn't pray for the dead. I suspect it is a sort of tradition which has grown up within protestantism, and now defines it.
If memory serves the unease about prayers for the dead in (some) protestant circles comes (like so many other things) from the abuse of the practice in the pre-reformation church to extract money from people; there was a strong implication that enough prayers, particularly if you could fund a religious community to say prayers in perpetuity, would get the deceased a quick ticket out of purgatory. Obviously (again, like with so many other things) the baby was thrown out with the bath water and many protestants discourage praying for the dead at all. That said, prominent protestants such as C. S. Lewis were supportive.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
It does seem unlikely that a good god would do better because people talk to it doesn't it?
Where prayer is a conversation with God rather than a wish list presented to God, this doesn't apply. Of course we do tell God what we would like to happen, and ask God to intervene, but with hope of a gift rather than expectation of a reward or that God is bound to meet our demands.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Re. the supposed point of the thread, whether prayer can make a difference other than to the one who prays, I suppose the first thing to consider is what the person prays for in the first place.
Amongst protestants, it is common to hear things like "we are praying for the family." And the family themselves are encouraged to pray "for God's strength" (for themselves), but never for the person who has died. Hence, sadly, the deceased person is often quickly forgotten.
I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where we are specifically told we shouldn't pray for the dead. I suspect it is a sort of tradition which has grown up within protestantism, and now defines it.
Re. Catholic and Orthodox (and some Anglo-Catholic), I guess they are hoping for exactly what they are asking of God - that their prayers will be effectual towards the persons (now passed away) being prayed for.
I think it a good thing to pray for those who grieve too, don't you?
I don't recognise the 'protestant' label, but I've attended several times the C of E funeral service and 'committal' and the deceased is certainly prayed for there. I don't recall there being a specific request for their sins to be forgiven them, however.
The only funerals I've attended which didn't include prayers for the deceased were those led by 'secular celebrants' (shudder).
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All dogs go to heaven.
And praying for the dead is efficacious for the living.
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Love wins
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I think it a good thing to pray for those who grieve too, don't you?
Of course, yes - I wasn't suggesting prayer for the dead in place of praying for the bereaved.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All dogs go to heaven.
And praying for the dead is efficacious for the living.
Well, that's that then!
Seriously, could you explain why you say these things?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
If you are praying for someone you knew personally, then prayer may be part of your own individual process of grief, and no one else's business.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If you are praying for someone you knew personally, then prayer may be part of your own individual process of grief, and no one else's business.
I'm not happy about calling grief or bereavement a "process," it sounds so clinical - isn't there more to it all than that?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think thew whole thing about praying for the dead focuses on 2 things.
One is a lack of assurance of salvation. The title of this thread, which I am going to keep my comments to, is 'the souls of the faithful' - which rather suggests that these are Christian souls, infused with grace and imputed/imparted with god's righteousness.
In which case, their destiny in heaven is a done deal, promised by Jesus and guaranteed by the Holy Spirit who is given as an 'earnest' a 'deposit' against that day.
There is no need to pray for a person's salvation in the 'hope' it may happen - it has already happened. When we become a Christian we pass from death to life and no further work of salvation/grace is needed.
The other issue is Purgatory and the dreadful belief that we can, or need to, pray for the soul of the dead in order to release them from this fictional place which, I am led to believe, differs only from Hell in the fact that it is not eternal.
Therefore, I believe we can give thanks to God for the departed saints, we can commend them to God, and know that in the Victorian phrase they are 'safe in the arms of Jesus', but there is no point/need in praying for a change in their state of grace.
If they are believing Christians then they were already in a state of grace at death.
If they were no Christians then they were not in a state of grace and we must leave them to the wisdom and mercy of God.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If they were no Christians then they were not in a state of grace and we must leave them to the wisdom and mercy of God.
Is there any other situation in which, relying on God's wisdom and mercy, you would not think it right to pray for the same?
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
What are you saying when you 'commend them to God' Mudfrog?
Are we to judge whether or not we think someone's saved and only 'commend' them if we do? Jesus told us not to rely on it!
Why wouldn't we ask God to embrace everyone, whether or not they were 'believing Christians' in our eyes, knowing that after all God will do as God will do?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I must say, the idea of praying for dead friends and relatives has never seemed natural to me. I don't come from a background where anybody does that. The closest I'd get to it is 'let us commend So-and-So to God's care' at the funeral.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I did not mean to offend anyone by referring to grief as a process. My point is that people grieve differently. No one can tell you how to grieve, any more than anyone can tell you how to forgive.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I did not mean to offend anyone by referring to grief as a process. My point is that people grieve differently. No one can tell you how to grieve, any more than anyone can tell you how to forgive.
Don't worry, because it's how people talk about it in common language - I suspect it's to do with our protestant/enlightened heritage.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Here's the thing. When a person dies, they may be a christian, they may have lived a good life, but normally they are not perfect - so how do we get from our imperfection at death - a mixture of good and bad, if we're honest - to being a citizen of heaven?
That's what praying for the dead is all about - that God might have mercy on the deceased person's shortcomings which are still part of their nature when they die.
That sounds as if it presupposes that accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour wasn't sufficient in and of itself to save us. God has already mercifully accepted our shortcomings, in life, by calling us his children.
Any idea that the goal of a Christian should have been 'to live a good life' (and that we'll make up for the shortcomings after death) sounds to me like it's falling into exactly the same traps that Judaism did. It replaces 'you must earn you way into heaven' into 'you must earn as much of your way into heaven as you can, and we'll give you a push along at the end'.
If God has saved someone, God has already saved them while they're alive on this Earth. It's not a case of "I'll come back and get you if someone reminds me".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All dogs go to heaven.
The irony being that she'd have put up with hell if I'd walked her there.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm even looking forward to seeing my childhood budgies again.
And Mark Betts, why do you ask? And that's as rhetorical as you are.
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Love wins
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cosmic dance
Shipmate
# 14025
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Posted
To Hughwillridmee.
My sympathy for your loss. I have a beloved dog that brings me great happiness. Do you think that perhaps being able to have your dog "put down" in a humane fashion was a most dignified way to go, rather than having to suffer the awfullness of a horrid lingering disease?
When our cat had to be put down a few years ago, believe me it was a huge relief to have ended his suffering. I was grateful for vets who could give him a better end than suffering great pain.
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"No method, no teacher, no guru..." Van Morrison.
Posts: 233 | From: godzone | Registered: Aug 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That sounds as if it presupposes that accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour wasn't sufficient in and of itself to save us. God has already mercifully accepted our shortcomings, in life, by calling us his children.
Any idea that the goal of a Christian should have been 'to live a good life' (and that we'll make up for the shortcomings after death) sounds to me like it's falling into exactly the same traps that Judaism did. It replaces 'you must earn you way into heaven' into 'you must earn as much of your way into heaven as you can, and we'll give you a push along at the end'.
If God has saved someone, God has already saved them while they're alive on this Earth. It's not a case of "I'll come back and get you if someone reminds me".
Hi orfeo, hope you are well!
What you explain above is almost a carbon-copy of my faith up until about 10 years ago. Problems came when I wanted to prove this clearly understood faith from the Bible. I was surprised to find, right the way through the New Testament that I was reading something different - more, to my shock, like what Roman Catholics believed.
I remember a pastor once asking me to prove my "once saved, always saved" faith from the Bible. All I could think of was "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and "Behold I stand at the door and knock..." I didn't really understand much about the context of the verses, but the pastor said, "Well done!" I, however, wasn't convinced by my own wisdom.
My three issues are:
- You are saved by asking Jesus into your heart - but how sincere were you? What (outward) sign is there that you are changed? What about the many people who say "the sinner's prayer" then fall by the wayside? I am far more convinced that we are "born again" in Baptism, because here there is an outward sign (of an inward grace), and it is what the Church has always believed.
- It seems you can fall from Grace - how else are we to understand Jesus' parable of the Sower?
- Forgiveness of Sin - It makes no sense to me to believe that when a person comes to Christ (be it by Baptism or the sinner's prayer) all their sins are forgiven - even those they have yet to partake in. In the articles of religion (BCP) there is a section on "Sin after Baptism", which, IMO, makes it quite clear that we have to deal differently with such sins, hence confession, be it general or personal.
Thus, I started my journey up the candle to Anglo-Catholicism, then considered Roman Catholicism, eventually settling for Orthodoxy.
I still however think of God as a merciful Father - none of us have got it all right, I'm quite sure - so let's hope God will "mercifully accept our shortcomings" as you say.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It seems you can fall from Grace - how else are we to understand Jesus' parable of the Sower?
I'm a little lost as to the relevance of this one. If you can fall from grace, the rescue net doesn't consist of people praying for you after you've died. Not unless you're a Mormon.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Do you think it important to pray for people when they die? If so, why?
If you mean praying for rather than to the dead, then from a RC point of view the answer is straightforward: assuming that the dead being prayed for are not either doomed (in hell) or already in heaven (as saints), such prayers can reduce their punishment in purgatory and hence accelerate their (guaranteed) final acceptance into heaven. This is RC dogma. If the person is in hell, then pious theological speculation suggests that prayers for them may alleviate their eternal suffering. Likewise, such speculation suggests that prayers for a saint in heaven may increase their status in the heavenly hierarchy.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Having lost a pet today, and given it a 'decent burial', I'm wondering whether its spirit will live on, and having prayed for it I wonder about all those, human and other animals, who are never the beneficiary of prayer.
I'm sorry to hear that.
But carrying on in a Purgatorial manner: The soul of an animal will not live on in its own right, since it does not have any incorporeal activity in which it could subsist past death (an animal soul is strictly just the living form of an animal body, and death is precisely the essential destruction of this living form). To what extent this particular dog may "live on" in some sense through you or other human beings in the next world, or whether it might be recreated by God (for you), is in the realm of pure speculation.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Here's the thing. When a person dies, they may be a christian, they may have lived a good life, but normally they are not perfect - so how do we get from our imperfection at death - a mixture of good and bad, if we're honest - to being a citizen of heaven?
That's what praying for the dead is all about - that God might have mercy on the deceased person's shortcomings which are still part of their nature when they die.
This is probably duplicating what Orfeo has said but I beleive that Jesus died to save us from our sins, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not die but have eternal life.
Therefore if someone dies having believed in Christ, then Jesus will make him a citizen of heaven. If he did not beleive then Jesus will not acknowledge him before the Father and he will instead be judged according to his sins, which is certain condemnation. It doesn't matter how fervently his friends are praying on earth, that doesn't have any effect on whether someone gets into heaven or not. It's all about Jesus.
I don't beleive in the Calivinist 'once saved, always saved', since the parable of the Sower (and many other parables and passages) appears to strongly discourage this concept. I think there are many who may run the course, but do not have the stamina to finish the race. They may not keep hold of their faith before the end. They may be like one of the foolish bridesmaids, who did not keep their lamps burning. They ended up being rejected as strangers by the bridegroom, who said he didn't even know them.
But anyone who dies without discarding their faith, with their lamp still lit (however dimly) is saved by the grace of God. That is God's promise, and one we can, and should, have sure and certain hope of.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
...But anyone who dies without discarding their faith, with their lamp still lit (however dimly) is saved by the grace of God.
Do you mean "lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot" - as in Revelation 3? Do you see a problem?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
...But anyone who dies without discarding their faith, with their lamp still lit (however dimly) is saved by the grace of God.
Do you mean "lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot" - as in Revelation 3?
No. You're just mixing metaphors.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Do you see a problem?
No, you'll have to elaborate.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
...No, you'll have to elaborate.
Simply put, I would have thought someone who still called themselves a christian, but their "lamp was burning very dimly" was the same as someone whose faith had become lukewarm. Is this not so?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm not happy about calling grief or bereavement a "process," it sounds so clinical - isn't there more to it all than that?
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I did not mean to offend anyone by referring to grief as a process. My point is that people grieve differently. No one can tell you how to grieve, any more than anyone can tell you how to forgive.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Don't worry, because it's how people talk about it in common language - I suspect it's to do with our protestant/enlightened heritage.
Grieving seems to be a psychological process, with several more or less well-defined stages, beginning with shock, passing through various forms of emotional distress, up to and including depression, and ending with some form of acceptance or peace. The fact that these stages can be discerned and named doesn't make the process cold and scientific (which I think is what you mean by "clinical"--my apologies if I've misinterpreted that), but shows how our shared humanity leads us to experience life's most devastating events in similar ways.
You could call it a journey, if that makes it seem less clinical. For many (most?) people it is a deeply spiritual time.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Is there any point in praying for the living ?
God knows what they want and need.
Is there any point in praying for ourselves ?
God knows what we want and need.
We do not pray to God to get Him to change His mind,but to let Him know that we care.
We let Him know that we care for the living,including ourselves and we let Him know that we care about those who have passed on.
As we move through our earthly life,we move through time.Hopefully we improve and are 'purified' of our imperfections.We do not know about time beyond the grave as souls approach the throne of grace,so as we pray for them here we can and should pray for them beyond the grave,because it 'is a holy and wholesome thought'.We do not have to worry,however,that God will forget those who have no-one to pray for them,no more than He will forget the many souls who wander through this world with no-one to pray for them.
The Church is a family which prays for and with and to the many different parts of the family,those here on earth,those on their way to the bliss of Heaven and those who have already reached that state of perfection and enjoy immediately the presence of God.
Many people, including many Christians have little understanding of Heaven and Hell and even less about what is meant by the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
...No, you'll have to elaborate.
Simply put, I would have thought someone who still called themselves a christian, but their "lamp was burning very dimly" was the same as someone whose faith had become lukewarm. Is this not so?
I suppose in a way. I was extending the lamp metaphor and probably shouldn't have, since such a concept is not in the parable itself. The lamp is a metaphor for someone's faith in Christ as I understand it. In an important sense, faith either is or isn't. I was adding the fact that we can sometimes feel far from God, and feel that our faith is weaker than others', and I was using the metaphor of a dim light to represent this.
In the parable though the lamps are either burning or not, and that is the important thing and our ticket into the wedding banquet. Fundamentally it didn't matter how much oil each person had, as long as the lamp was burning when the bridegroom came.
Revelation 3 I think warns of the imminent dangers of a Church about to lose its faith. Perhaps the Parable of the Bridesmaids could be applicable to Laodicea as well, as they seem to be in the position of the bridesmaids about halfway through the story, about to fall asleep, their lamps about to fail, but they don't notice or care. Lukewarm interest in Christ is dangerous. They are on the verge of losing their faith, and being rejected, even though it hasn't happened yet, and they need to watch out, because this danger is close. At least, that's my interpretation.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The lamps in the Gospel symbolise readiness, not salvation.
The lukewarmness in Revelation suggests love for Christ, spiritual fervour and the decrease in faith.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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hanginginthere
Shipmate
# 17541
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Posted
Surely praying for someone is (among other things) a way of loving them? And how is it possible not to love them in this particular way once they have died? Presumably the dead are outside time; presumably also our prayers once uttered are in God's timelessness, and God can 'use' the love that they represent in any way God chooses.
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'Safe?' said Mr Beaver. 'Who said anything about safe? But he's good. He's the King, I tell you.'
Posts: 72 | From: Eboracum | Registered: Jan 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What's timelessness?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What's timelessness?
It's when your watch battery runs out. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
...or...
The heavenly realm, which isn't bound by time as we are. If part of creation was time, then it makes no sense to believe that God is subject to it does it?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And Hawk, Jesus is then Damner not Saviour.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If ...
....you believe in this stuff about God being "the ground of our being" then it doesn't apply, as far as you're concerned. In which case select answer 'a'.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
To pray for the dead is to pray for their continual sanctification in heaven. The saints in turn, pray for our sanctification as we grow together into the likeness of Christ.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry Mark?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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