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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Contemporary prophets
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Over in Kerygmania we have a thread running on the success of prophecy.
People think of "prophecy" in different terms. Some think of predicting the future, and others think of a prophet as addressing society and pointing out what is happening (usually something bad). Both of these seem to involve speaking for God. Neither implies a person is a saint.
Here is a stick-your-neck-out question: Who in the world today (or recently) do you regard as a prophet? Who, if anyone, speaks for God? What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?
I anticipate that someone will mention C.S. Lewis. I think he would have denied this. Does a prophet know he/she is a prophet?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
People think of "prophecy" in different terms. Some think of predicting the future, and others think of a prophet as addressing society and pointing out what is happening (usually something bad). Both of these seem to involve speaking for God. Neither implies a person is a saint.
Martin Luther King, Jr. comes to mind in the "recent" category. If I believed in God, I'd probably accept MLK as one of His legitimate prophets.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
RH Tawney?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I'd cast my vote for Karl Barth, whose doubts about liberal Protestant theology during WWI were pretty conclusively vindicated by the happenings of WWII.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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StarlightUK
Shipmate
# 4592
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Posted
Archbishop Tutu comes pretty close to being the nearest we have to a living prophet in my opinion. And also arguably the late Bishop of Chichester George Bell, particularly in respect of his outspoken views of the conduct of the Allies in WWII.
Bishop George Bell
Posts: 76 | From: Brighton | Registered: Jun 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
My most recent hero is also a modern day prophet, but would not accept this is Charlie Brooker. His insights into the impact of media, and his presentation of this in ways that are practical is astounding.
He is giving warnings about our media obsessed culture, and I think that is a message from God, where we ignore relationships, and accept the story of reality we are pushed.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Oscar Romero, Janani Luwum, Martin Luther King.
The way of the prophet is not a popular one.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'll see your Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King and Desmond Tutu, and raise you a Karl Marx, an Adolf Hitler, and maybe throw in an Uzbeki or Latin American dictator. All of whom have been followed as prophets.
Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?
Legacy has nothing to do with it- it's the content of the message that makes a prophet. There is only one God, and if one does not proclaim that God, one is a false prophet.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I'd like to nominate Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Someone who was waaaaay ahead of his time.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?
Legacy has nothing to do with it- it's the content of the message that makes a prophet. There is only one God, and if one does not proclaim that God, one is a false prophet.
Is Mohammed on your team?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Should we draw a distinction between cult leader" and "prophet"? The prophets in the Bible are for the most part not leaders of cults; some of them seem to have been fiercely solitary individuals.
By the way, can anyone name female prophets for our list?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Dorothy Day.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Those who claim prophetic gifts are, almost as a rule, frauds. They are exposed in the end. John Wimber springs immediately to mind as one of the latter.
K.
[ 19. March 2013, 20:51: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I believe prophets are those who speak out in the name of God against injustice, immorality and oppression, they are, like in OT times a varied lot and having prophet status, doesn't IMO mean that one is without faults and failings. On that basis I agree with MLK, Bonhoeffer and Tutu and I'd add Mother Theresa, JPII (mainly for the role he had in supporting the Solidarity movement in Poland) and Bono for being a prophetic voice who has managed to reach a large audience of society outside typical church structures.
Oh and Mark Driscoll of course 'cos he "sees things" (mainly people having sex apparently) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Is Mohammed on your team?
No, but before you run with that, saying he wasn't a prophet of the Lord doesn't mean he was altogether wrong, or a bad person.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
balaam. An excellent top three. I can only add one living prophet to go alongside these resting saints. Brian McLaren.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Some of these prophets you folks have nominated are probably only speaking to Chosen People of a Particular Nation. Canadian here, never heard of:
R H Tawney
Janani Luwum
Dorothy Day
Joh Wimber
Brian McLaren.
Maybe when people nominate some obscure and locally famous holy person, they can add a line or two about them and what makes them prophet material.
We don't seem to have any prophets in Canada, at least none come to mind. We've had some Very Colourful Personalities who were very good at speechifying, but that hardly makes a prophet.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
May I gently suggest that your experience is not normative for all Canadians? The Shiply phrase I have seen for this is, "Don't incorporate."
I myself - though Canadian! - have read a biography of Dorothy Day and am watching a DVD series with Brian McLaren. For the others, I take the opportunity to develop my Google-fu.
For example.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
The Dalai Lama
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Janini Luwum : Martyr and Archbishop of Uganda, murdered by Idi Amin. We remembered him on 17 Feb. A man in the same rank as Oscar Romero.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Dorothy Day.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Catholic anarchist? Love it. I'll look for a good biog today.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
ISTM that a prophet tries to bring God's Word to an unwilling people, which cuts out some of the more bizarre suggestions here.
Let's see: God's Word, counter-cultural, unpopular because prophecy involves unsettling people:
Tutu? Check
Luwum? Check
MLK? Check
Dorothy Day? Check
Brooker? No God's Word. Uncheck
Mohammed? Prophetic, but hardly in the modern ers - something about 1400 years, y'know. N/A
Apply the test, and carry on.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Those who claim prophetic gifts are, almost as a rule, frauds. They are exposed in the end. John Wimber springs immediately to mind as one of the latter.
K.
I'm no standard bearer for Wimber, thinking of him as better than many charevo characters, although a very very long way from my cup of tea - if there's a Purgatory I trust he's going to do some time there for "Isn't he beautiful?"
But I'm not aware of fraud. I think this might be a case of EOSTFU.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It's very difficult to state categorically that someone is a prophet while they are still living, but easier to look back over the last few decades to identify with hindsight. There may well be people who only have for a fraction of their ministry been true prophets, and may even have gone badly off course at other stages of their lives. Not so different, then, to the prophets of the Old Testament.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It's very difficult to state categorically that someone is a prophet while they are still living...
I have a foolproof method -- if the person in question agrees with me that you are wrong, they're speaking prophetically.
--Tom Clune
[ 20. March 2013, 16:17: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?
Legacy has nothing to do with it- it's the content of the message that makes a prophet. There is only one God, and if one does not proclaim that God, one is a false prophet.
According to the Jews, you can't really know a true prophet until after the fact; the proof is in the pudding, as it were. I think the same is true now. We may have our suspicions, but we won't truly know who the modern prophets are until history has spoken.
There was a time when even some Westerners would have called Mao prophetic; the content of his message was freedom and justice for the working and peasant classes, an end to tyranny and western imperialism, etc. etc. Today, not so much. Martin Luther King on the other hand looks like he'll stand the test of time.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Double posting to add, true then as now, this doesn't help much in deciding who the true prophets are now. In Biblical times, there were plenty of false prophets floating around, and they presumably had followers, otherwise they wouldn't have been mentioned. And many of the prophets weren't exactly popular in their day, so the people of their day didn't necessarily see them for what they were. The prophets handed down in Scripture are the ones the canonizers decided were true long after the fact.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Morrissey
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Me, obviously, but you knew that.
Good point -- false prophets are prophets, too...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
From this morning's reading,
quote:
“For twenty-three years, from the thirteenth year of King Josiah son of Amon of Judah, to this day, the word of the Lord has come to me, and I have spoken persistently to you, but you have not listened.” Jer 25:3 NRSV
A prophet is not just someone who is inspirational or who speaks provocatively and with a loud voice. He or she is someone called by God and who speaks on behalf of God, to impart God's message, not his or her own.
It is not enough just to have discerned through study, thought, or whatever, what we think God might be saying, or to assume that God feels what we feel strongly.
Applying that test, rather than 'someone that I find inspirational', do any of the names that have been canvassed still rank as prophets?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I would suggest Tommy Douglas for his application of "Do this unto the least of these" in the development of universal health care in Canada. How else could a flyweight Baptist preacher from deepest rural Saskatchewan convert an entire country?
Despite the staunch conservative nature of many Canadians and the opposition of the people who control the money... and the presence nearby of a very large number of people who think the whole idea is crazy and "socialistic" (duh!)
The old CCF was staunchly social-justice oriented and, at one time, were clearly prophetic as a party.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Hortseman Bree
great point Douglas was way ahead of his time in seeing government as helping people who
were on the margins of society. I think he he lived , or tried to live the citation in my signature ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Who in the world today (or recently) do you regard as a prophet?
No one.
quote:
Who, if anyone, speaks for God?
No living person I've heard of. I believe God speaks to us through the bible and Jesus was God's word made flesh.
quote:
What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?
They can't ever be wrong about anything.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?
They can't ever be wrong about anything.
That would seem to leave out David.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
ISTM that a prophet is known for his bringing of the Word of God, with his other failings not being enough to matter. He will have failings - he's human, after all - but the importance of his message will shine through despite those failings.
Plus, of course, he isn't necessarily one of the "chosen" from among Those Who Matter, as defined by the world.
Hence my sponsorship of Tommy Douglas. Undersized, weakened by childhood illness, a preacher in a minor denom in an unfavorable part of a thinly-settled, relatively poor province, who became an inspirational figure because of his preaching the equality of all people and the need to look after all equally.
The fact that he became a provincial leader with arguably the most impressive record (13 successive balanced budgets in an economically weak province, while paving (for the first time) the roads and opening a network of hospitals) while still being an effective voice for the dispossessed, doesn't hurt either.
And he did not alienate those in other parties, except for pointing out where they erred from a Christian viewpoint. Even than, he was respected (and feared) by the Real Politicians.
Oh, and he was voted to be the Greatest Canadian a generation after he died, despite all the celebrities that were available. Not bad for a preacher.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's hard to make sense of the concept of the prophet in modern Britain. It's a postmodern, pluralistic culture. Can any individual claim to speak to or for the nation when there are so many warring ideas (increasing daily, thanks to the internet) of what the nation should be? It almost seems presumptious.
Some Americans talk of 'speaking truth to power' but is it possible to do so without already having some degree of power? Doesn't a prophet need to be heard by the whole nation before they take the liberty of ignoring him (or her)? Someone mentioned Rowan Williams, the former Archbishop of Canterbury and theoretically part of the establishment; is that the level of power required to be heard by the nation and by elected leaders?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?
They can't ever be wrong about anything.
That would seem to leave out David.
If David was a prophet, what was Nathan for?
[ 23. March 2013, 21:56: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!
Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong? All I know of was his hitting that rock with a stick, but did he say something out of line?
Elijah? Where did he foul up? If he did, I don't recall it off the top of my head.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If David was a prophet, what was Nathan for?
Elijah to David as Elisha?
[ 24. March 2013, 04:05: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!
Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.
That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!
Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.
That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
I thought it was because he struck the rock.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
The Orthodox on the ship might be able to contribute to this... AFAIK there is a concept of "kardiognosis", which is apparently a sort of spiritual claivoyance, a gift given to what is called "Spirit Bearers", deeply spiritual members of the community (not necessarily ordained priests).
Does anyone know more about this gift?
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!
Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.
That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
I thought it was because he struck the rock.
I thought it was because he struck the rock twice, the 2nd strike indicating a lack of faith in not having been satisfied with striking the rock just the one time. I didn't think it had to do with him killing the Egyptian, since God appeared in the burning bush to Moses well after that event, and made no mention of it then.
[ 24. March 2013, 19:47: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!
Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.
That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
I thought it was because he struck the rock.
That's my understanding of it:
Numbers 20:9-12
9 So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
I talked this morning to a certain fellow I bounce things off of when I wonder about certain stuff. He seems to be about the wisest guy I know even though he was the top Democrat in our county for a good while. He reminded me of Jesus on the road to Emmaus:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
So, there were things to be fulfilled from all three, but all three listed. So, were Moses and David actually prophets, too? I'll go out on a limb and say I don't know for sure and am open to ideas.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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