|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Contemporary prophets
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
Let's extend it a little bit: Do you know anyone personally who, in your own life, you can regard as a prophet? That is, people have been naming "public prophets", prominent individuals who had effects on society in general. Can we have personal prophets?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Let's extend it a little bit: Do you know anyone personally who, in your own life, you can regard as a prophet? That is, people have been naming "public prophets", prominent individuals who had effects on society in general. Can we have personal prophets?
That would be pretty tough to do. One man's public prophet is often another man's public menace.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
I'm not sure if I could name a person who I regarded as a prophet per se (see my comment further upthread about how it's much easier to see with hindsight than in the present), but I have learnt heaps of things by listening to the wise comments and advice of many different people over the years. Like many parents, I'm amazed at how much I've discovered by listening to my own children. At times, they have been quite prophetic. Kids tell it how it is.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Like many parents, I'm amazed at how much I've discovered by listening to my own children. At times, they have been quite prophetic. Kids tell it how it is.
Ain't it the truth? Years ago I yelled a bad name at someone who cut me off in traffic while I was taking one of our kids to a sitter. Guess what my daughter called the baby sitter as we walked in? Guess who felt like a moron?
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
ISTM that a prophet tries to bring God's Word to an unwilling people, which cuts out some of the more bizarre suggestions here.
Let's see: God's Word, counter-cultural, unpopular because prophecy involves unsettling people:
Tutu? Check
Luwum? Check
MLK? Check
Dorothy Day? Check
Brooker? No God's Word. Uncheck
Mohammed? Prophetic, but hardly in the modern ers - something about 1400 years, y'know. N/A
Apply the test, and carry on.
Depends what you understand as Gods Word. If you mean self0identification as Christian, spurting their words underlined by the Bible then I would take exception with you.
The best place to find prophets - in the sense of people who are bringing Biblical truths to people who have not heard them is song lyrics. Some fantastic truths to be found there, especially amongst those who don't know that their words could be considered Christian.
If you want to dismiss Brooker, look at Eco and others who developed the idea of hyper-reality, and you will find people who saw the future and saw the danger, and then highlighted them.
Prophecy - in any form - is about bringing people to face the biblical truths. It is not about limiting it to Christians or religious people. The people who piss me off most are those who thing that God only speaks to Christians. TBH, I suspect he has got fed up with talking to Christians, who don't listen, and spiritualise everything, so he now talks through all sorts of other people instead.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Who in the world today (or recently) do you regard as a prophet? Who, if anyone, speaks for God? What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet?
I think we're all aware that various founders of new religions in the past two hundred years claimed to be prophets. Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Sun Myung Moon, etc.
As a member of the New Church I would claim that Swedenborg is a revelator. I don't know if that is the same as a prophet, but we don't call him a prophet. In his books he claimed that there was nothing from himself, but that it was all from Jesus Christ.
I think the litmus test is whether you believe an outrageous claim like this. I know I don't believe it about the people mentioned above, but would consider them frauds.
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Does a prophet know he/she is a prophet?
In one sense, yes, if they themselves are making claims to speak for God.
In another sense many people that have been mentioned on this thread can be called prophets after the fact because we admire their wisdom and prescient ideas. They wouldn't call themselves prophets.
[ 24. March 2013, 23:02: Message edited by: Freddy ]
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I talked this morning to a certain fellow I bounce things off of when I wonder about certain stuff. He seems to be about the wisest guy I know even though he was the top Democrat in our county for a good while. He reminded me of Jesus on the road to Emmaus:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
So, there were things to be fulfilled from all three, but all three listed. So, were Moses and David actually prophets, too? I'll go out on a limb and say I don't know for sure and am open to ideas.
I don't think that follows. The Jewish scriptures are seen as having three ingredients, Law (Torah), Prophets and Writings.
Moses = Law
David = Writings.
quote:
Originally posted by HCH
That is, people have been naming "public prophets", prominent individuals who had effects on society in general.
For the reason I've mentioned earlier, however influential or inspirational they might be, I don't think being a 'prominent individuals who had effects on society in general' makes anyone a prophet. quote:
ditto
Can we have personal prophets?.
In what sense? Do you mean that for you, someone who has influenced you or inspired you, becomes a prophet? Or do you mean that you believe that there has been someone who has passed on a message of God personally directed to you, somewhat in the way recorded of people like St John Vianney?
I don't think we can have a personal prophet all of our own, a sort of private prophet. That would be a negation of something fundamental to what a prophet is. What makes a person a prophet is not that we find what they say inspiring or meaningful. It is that they speak on behalf of God. This has consistently been rather rare. That St John Vianney and a few others seem to have been able to discern what God was saying in a way not open to the rest of us, has been the fruit of many years of deeply consecrated living.
It would also be a very frightening gift/calling to have. The temptations must be of an order that most of us could not even imagine, yet alone withstand.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
A prophet is one who "shows forth" problems with contemporary societies. Amos comes to mind, as well as Hosea.
With that in mind, I would list modern folk singers (many songs address modern problems, not just folk),
A good example was "Who Will Stop the Rain" by Credence Clearwater Revival. It speaks to the then bombing of the US against North Vietnam.
Another contemporary prophet I enjoy is Elizabeth Warren, the freshman Senator from Massachusetts. I look for her to be the next Democratic nomination for Presidency. At least she will have my vote in the local caucuses.
We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.
I would recognize some of the shipmates here as prophets as well.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.
And we all have the unpleasant task of listening to prophetic voices speaking to powerful us. The problem is that we readily say, "You go, girl" when the prophetic voice is directed at someone else, and unfailingly say, "Shut up" when it is directed at us.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb] I talked this morning to a certain fellow I bounce things off of when I wonder about certain stuff. He seems to be about the wisest guy I know even though he was the top Democrat in our county for a good while. He reminded me of Jesus on the road to Emmaus:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
So, there were things to be fulfilled from all three, but all three listed. So, were Moses and David actually prophets, too? I'll go out on a limb and say I don't know for sure and am open to ideas.
I don't think that follows. The Jewish scriptures are seen as having three ingredients, Law (Torah), Prophets and Writings.
Moses = Law
David = Writings.
I can't argue with you when it seems you and Jesus are both saying the same thing about it all.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
A prophet is one who "shows forth" problems with contemporary societies. Amos comes to mind, as well as Hosea.
With that in mind, I would list modern folk singers (many songs address modern problems, not just folk),
A good example was "Who Will Stop the Rain" by Credence Clearwater Revival. It speaks to the then bombing of the US against North Vietnam.
Another contemporary prophet I enjoy is Elizabeth Warren, the freshman Senator from Massachusetts. I look for her to be the next Democratic nomination for Presidency. At least she will have my vote in the local caucuses.
We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.
I would recognize some of the shipmates here as prophets as well.
Well, here's an example of one man's prophets being another man's public menace.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
The prophetic role is to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.
I sometimes am uncomfortable when the prophet is speaking to me.
Martin Luther King afflicted my views on race.
Gloria Stienem afflicted my views on sex.
Various people--John Kerry for one--afflicted my views on war.
My wife afflicted my views on God
My children afflicted my views on discipline
The list can go on.
However, because of the above I admit I changed over time.
Now I am with the other 98% who want to address the issue of income inequality in the US.
I think before I vote.
I was the only person on a message board that was critical of the Iraqi War from the get go (and got a lot of flack--no pun intended--for it).
I still am challenged by my adult children on various issues, but I expected that. I know I challenged my parents in a number of ways too.
There are still prophets that disturb me, but I know God is still at work in me, changing my perspective on many issues.
However, I think the greatest compliment one of my kids gave me after he graduated from a fairly liberal college was that he did not realize just how liberal his mother and I were until he started at that college.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
A prophet is one who "shows forth" problems with contemporary societies. Amos comes to mind, as well as Hosea.
With that in mind, I would list modern folk singers (many songs address modern problems, not just folk),
A good example was "Who Will Stop the Rain" by Credence Clearwater Revival. It speaks to the then bombing of the US against North Vietnam.
Another contemporary prophet I enjoy is Elizabeth Warren, the freshman Senator from Massachusetts. I look for her to be the next Democratic nomination for Presidency. At least she will have my vote in the local caucuses.
We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.
I would recognize some of the shipmates here as prophets as well.
No, that is not what a prophet is. Nor is it what makes Amos and Hosea prophets. The essence of prophecy is not 'speaking the truth to power'. Despite Pilate's famous question, it's often fairly obvious what 'the truth' in public affairs would be. The problems are:-
a. Getting to a position where powerful people can hear you, and
b. Courage.
Those are both important. The latter is praiseworthy. For most of us the nearer we get to power, the more cautious we become with what we say.
But plucking up the courage to say something that's fairly obvious and doesn't require unusual gifts to perceive but might be dangerous to utter, laudable though it may be, does not make one a prophet.
Prophecy is knowing and imparting the mind of God. That is something quite different and very rare.
I regret I don't know the two specific examples you mention. So I can't comment on whether either meet that test. I'd be reluctant to deny this categorically, but I can't offhand think of any singers, whether folkies or any other genre, or currently active politicians that have.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
If it turns out there are real prophets, I doubt I would find any in the politics or mass media.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If it turns out there are real prophets, I doubt I would find any in the politics or mass media.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
|
Posted
I nominate Michael Leunig, probably not the only cartoonist but he is much more than that.
GG
--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
|
Posted
Prophets also called the community of faith into a proper relationship to God. They reoriented people around God's priorities.
I'll be keeping a weather eye on Papa Francis in that regard.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...Oh and Mark Driscoll of course 'cos he "sees things" (mainly people having sex apparently) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
You mean? ...no, I'm not even going to go there. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.
That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
Nope. God asked Moses to strike the rock once to get the water for the thirsting Israelites. In an act of disobedience based on lack of faith, he struck the rock twice. It was punishment for this, which was the reason Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.
That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
Nope. God asked Moses to strike the rock once to get the water for the thirsting Israelites. In an act of disobedience based on lack of faith, he struck the rock twice. It was punishment for this, which was the reason Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
It appears to me that he was told to just talk to the rock.
Numbers 20:7-11
7 The Lord said to Moses, 8 “Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.”
9 So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.
That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
Nope. God asked Moses to strike the rock once to get the water for the thirsting Israelites. In an act of disobedience based on lack of faith, he struck the rock twice. It was punishment for this, which was the reason Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
Bit bloody touchy, this God bloke of yours isn't he? I mean, I've got kids, if I reacted to their responses to me like this I'd be considered stark staring bonkers and the kids would be with foster carers.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
That's what I think of the whole (reductionist) evangelical message. For me, a prophet is someone who can cast a general light on God's general word, not one who can pick out of the bible 10 clear-cut steps for people to get instant salvation.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
