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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Joke Leads to Termination
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Juvenile humour will be found amongst males of ALL ages and professions.
I am trying to visualise a bunch of male legislative drafters getting together and cracking juvenile sex jokes, and I am honestly having great difficulty.
It's simply not true that all workplaces, and all professions, have the same culture. Different workplaces and different professions attract different kinds of people. And people tend to recruit in their own image. The whole notion of a 'workplace culture' depends on the fact that different workplaces will encourage/discourage different behaviours.
I've gone through plenty of personality/job preference/working pattern studies that demonstrate this. Heck, one of the earliest ones I did was precisely about correlating my personal inclinations with careers that were likely to suit. Turns out a major reason I don't really understand what engineers do and have no skills in sales is that people in those 2 professions tend to have ways of thinking that are fundamentally different to my own. I could certainly try those professions if I wanted to, but it would be with the realisation that the prevailing personality, and hence prevailing culture, in those professions is completely different from my own natural preferences.
By all means, defend the reputation of IT as an industry. But to suggest that all industries will tend to exhibit exactly the same kind of behaviours as each other is just silly.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Kind of the way Adria Richards is being "held accountable" for having the temerity to get PyCon to enforce it's own code of conduct.
No. If she'd got them to enforce the code of conduct by having a word with the organisers about what she'd heard, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Right. The "smile and good grace" I referred to earlier that seems to be the default expectation of women in these kinds of situations. A lot of "quiet words" have been had on this and this shit still happens. Why is it that it's always the woman who's expected to be "the bigger person"?
Again, it's not. Do you think that women don't ever indulge in chatting innuendo that makes men feel uncomfortable? It's not about the man or the woman being the bigger person. It's about the person who takes offence being the bigger person, whatever their gender.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Just like with the sporting analogy I gave earlier.
Right. The whole "that retaliatory headbutt was wrong, but it was a dirty tackle" analogy. I'm sure there's no way that could be taken as a justification.
Well, ISTM better than "that retaliatory headbutt was wrong, so the tackle can't possibly have been dirty", which is what you've appear to be saying.
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I don't think that tech culture would have changed as much as it has if a handful of men hadn't lost their jobs over behavior that they considered mildly inappropriate at worst. If a man pats your butt as he passes you in the hallway, why should you raise a stink? Why should you do anything that results in his being fired? Wouldn't it be more reasonable and proportionate to just have a word with him, to say "That's not cool, dude"? I'm sure the men fired over such things would have thought so. And not a small number of their colleagues, both male and female.
Thanks Josephine. I have a lot of sympathy with what you say. I guess what things boil down to is that I see a world of difference between unwanted pats on the butt and calling a penis a "big dongle". Patting on butts is sexual harassment. It's wrong, full stop. Mild innuendo aimed at no-one in particular is, IMO not wrong. It's an inoffensive part of everyday conversation.
I get that your prior experience makes you wary. But maybe this situation isn't symptomatic of what you've seen and been through previously.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Thanks Josephine. I have a lot of sympathy with what you say. I guess what things boil down to is that I see a world of difference between unwanted pats on the butt and calling a penis a "big dongle". Patting on butts is sexual harassment. It's wrong, full stop. Mild innuendo aimed at no-one in particular is, IMO not wrong. It's an inoffensive part of everyday conversation.
Mild innuendo is not inherently wrong. But it is, or can be, part of an environment that tells women that they are not welcome, that they are not part of the community, that they are and ever shall be outsiders.
And the pats on the butt that you understand as sexual harassment were not considered so 30 or 40 years ago. Cultures change. The limits of acceptable behavior change. Now, a man can't pat a woman on the butt at work, or massage her shoulders as she's sitting at her desk, but he can gratuitously include a picture of a woman's buttocks or breasts in a powerpoint deck as part of a professional presentation. That may be a lesser offense than the pat on the butt, but it communicates the same idea -- women are objects provided for the entertainment of the men present. That has the effect of excluding women from positions of power and authority.
quote:
I get that your prior experience makes you wary. But maybe this situation isn't symptomatic of what you've seen and been through previously.
Maybe it isn't. And maybe, when a black man at a law office is assumed to be the janitor instead of a partner, that isn't symptomatic of the kind of attitude that once (but thankfully no longer) led to lynchings. But no one has given me any reason to think that's the case.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Maybe it isn't. And maybe, when a black man at a law office is assumed to be the janitor instead of a partner, that isn't symptomatic of the kind of attitude that once (but thankfully no longer) led to lynchings. But no one has given me any reason to think that's the case.
But this is also a topic about consequences. It's about whether you feel that this particular remark - overheard - should lead to a public shaming on the internet.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Mild innuendo aimed at no-one in particular is, IMO not wrong. It's an inoffensive part of everyday conversation.
Irrelevant. The question is whether sexual innuendo is an inoffensive part of professional communication. Context matters. There's a ton of things you could get away with saying to your spouse or a close friend that are completely out of line when directed to a co-worker or colleague.
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I get that your prior experience makes you wary. But maybe this situation isn't symptomatic of what you've seen and been through previously.
And maybe someone with actual experience in this area might be worth listening to instead of being handwaved away. Crazy thought, eh?
[ 25. March 2013, 15:36: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is it only enforcement? That there must be a rule and then violations enforced? Is there no a requirement for judgement and thought? Is there no empathy, that what you are saying and doing might have an effect and a putting of self in the place of another?
Harassment polices and enforcement are part of the equation here, with the usual process being training about the policy such that people are acquainted with and trained with the expectations for positive behaviour with respect to them. The goal being to have people behaviour properly and avoid complaints. I have the clear sense that such expectations and training are not part of what is expected in some other jurisdictions.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Mild innuendo aimed at no-one in particular is, IMO not wrong. It's an inoffensive part of everyday conversation.
Irrelevant. The question is whether sexual innuendo is an inoffensive part of professional communication. Context matters. There's a ton of things you could get away with saying to your spouse or a close friend that are completely out of line when directed to a co-worker or colleague.
I don't dispute this as a general point. But it's not always as black and white as that. Colleagues can become close friends. The conversation was between two colleagues - possibly friends - at a work event - and neither of them had a problem with what the other said. The problem was that it was overheard by someone else who did. They should have been aware that others might be listening in on their conversation, who might not appreciate it, but for that indiscretion to be a sacking offence is, for me, well over the top.
Also, just today there's surely been much worse said, by men and by women, than "big dongle" in offices around the world - rightly or wrongly - with impunity. I've heard much, much worse in a professional context. The line where I'd draw "inappropriate" to the level of someone losing their job - or even been chucked out of an event - is much further along the scale.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I get that your prior experience makes you wary. But maybe this situation isn't symptomatic of what you've seen and been through previously.
And maybe someone with actual experience in this area might be worth listening to instead of being handwaved away. Crazy thought, eh?
I resent the suggestion that I've just handwaved Josephine away. I have bags and bags of respect for her, and have listened to and considered what she's said - probably more than if someone else said it. And, as I said earlier, I have my own experience in the industry. My degree was in Computer Science, and I worked in User Support and Installs over two years before switching to Media. So I've spent plenty of time around techie people. Just because I disagree with Josephine on certain parts of this situation (though we probably agree on far more than we disagree), it does not mean I have handwaved her away.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is a bit more nuanced than that. The culture in tech is very sexist. This is not unusual in a male-dominated field. That the overheard comment may not have been sexist in intent mitigates this only to an extent.
So regardless of whether the individuals in question did anything wrong or not, they should still be punished because of the culture of the industry in which they happen to operate?
Nice.
I grabbed your qoute as it is compact, but this is a response to deano and several others as well.
I stated in the OP (you know, the very first post in this thread) that the punishment meted was wrong and have reiterated this. Apparently proof texting isn't just for the bible.
As my sentence about mitigation seems to have twisted some knickers, let me further explain.
Most people adjust what they say depending upon their audience, this is a normal thing. I don't make sexual jokes around my Gran as she would not appreciate them. But I will make them to people who have demonstrated they are fine with such jokes. The men were in a situation where the could not reasonably expect everyone to be fine with sexual jokes, as the man who got fired admitted.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So regardless of whether the individuals in question did anything wrong or not, they should still be punished because of the culture of the industry in which they happen to operate?
Of course. Spotty male geeks with dandruff who work with computers and can't get girls of their own aren't a fashionable disadvantaged group, symbolise all for which we have contempt or fear we might become. So they deserve all they get. It's obvious.
Would it have been different if they had been gay and were joking about each others' dongles?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So regardless of whether the individuals in question did anything wrong or not, they should still be punished because of the culture of the industry in which they happen to operate?
Of course. Spotty male geeks with dandruff who work with computers and can't get girls of their own aren't a fashionable disadvantaged group, symbolise all for which we have contempt or fear we might become. So they deserve all they get. It's obvious.
Would it have been different if they had been gay and were joking about each others' dongles?
The men in question are spotty male geeks with dandruff and no girlfriends (even the one who's married with children?) and, poor dears, unfashionable and disadvantaged to boot?!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
A lot of "quiet words" have been had on this and this shit still happens.
I've been thinking about this, and about Jesus' words in Matthew 18. People often think about this passage as how Christians should deal with each other, but I think it sets out a blueprint for how people should deal with conflict in general. Many times when I've seen conflict get messy and horrible, it's because people haven't followed the kind of process that Jesus sets out.
I think that there is a false dichotomy between having a quiet word and going global on twitter as two options. Inappropriate behaviour should be confronted. If Adria had had a quiet word, and the guys responded with a polite apology, then the situation's resolved. If they'd responded with harsher, dismissive, sexist words, then her response most definitely should not be to just sit there and take it. That's when you take it higher, to the event organisers or your boss, and so on. If, at the end of that whole process, nothing has been resolved, I would see nothing wrong with taking her grievance to her horde of twitter followers (taking it to the church, or gathering as Jesus said). But rather than posting what she did, she'd have had a lot more grounds for grievance, and my guess is that the community would have supported her, rather than turned on her. But I doubt it would have gone that far - the two chaps seem pretty reasonable and gracious, so the situation could have been quickly diffused.
So saying that quiet words haven't worked before, so I won't bother this time doesn't wash for me. You don't have to be a Christian to think that the model of confrontation that Jesus sets out is the best - in fact pretty much the only way you should treat other people. My experience has told me time and time again that any other way of going about things makes the situation worse, not better. And that's exactly what happened here.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By all means, defend the reputation of IT as an industry. But to suggest that all industries will tend to exhibit exactly the same kind of behaviours as each other is just silly.
By which you mean of course, don't attack the industry YOU work in!
All heterosexual MEN, when gathered in male groups will revert to a more juvenile status, including your precious legislative drafters.
Which is no reason to specifically accuse one particular industry of being peopled with real or proto- rapists.
Black men assumed to be janitors… IT people who are spotty “nerds”… some people need to get out more and look at theworld around them. It isn't how you think it is.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And while we're on the subject, how about a little opprobrium for this sexist piece of shit advert.
The first thought that came to my mind was 'significant shrinkage'.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Marvin, I think the rule is…
quote:
It is only sexist if another group that I don’t belong to does it. If my group does it, it is a “sideways comment on modern life”.
Or something. Anyway, it boils down to “When you do X you are being evil, when we do X we are not.”
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
Ridiculous reactions all round, including on here. Arguing that some incredibly mild innuendo (about male genitalia as well) is part of "rape culture" is ludicrous. The talk of so called professional conduct is a nonsense as well. Does no one have any sort of conversation at work beyond the banal? Telling jokes is part of getting on with people. Workplaces would be incredibly boring and depressing places if everyone had to constantly maintain such an artificial "professional" attitude.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
I discovered that humour could get you into trouble when I was at Primary School.
Since then the world has got a whole lot more po faced and serious. It's like a Puritan age, without the religion. Do not dare to smile or crack a joke - you may 'offend' someone.
This is why TV 'comedy' is so pathetic nowadays.
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Supporter of Tia Greyhound and Lurcher Rescue.http://tiagreyhounds.org/
Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
All heterosexual MEN, when gathered in male groups will revert to a more juvenile status, including your precious legislative drafters
Uh, not all of us do. Some of us find it a bit sickening.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
I discovered that humour could get you into trouble when I was at Primary School.
Since then the world has got a whole lot more po faced and serious. It's like a Puritan age, without the religion. Do not dare to smile or crack a joke - you may 'offend' someone.
I don't know. I love a laugh, in fact I can't go through an hour without having a good laugh.
But I do find that bullies hide behind the 'I was only joking' phrase.
So intention matters. If your intention is to upset and offend then 'only joking' won't wash with me. If your intention is to have fun then you'll find me very hard to offend. Of course that means I need to 'read' your intention and will sometimes get it wrong. But those who don't want to upset are quick to apologise and so am I, so no harm done.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I think that there is a false dichotomy between having a quiet word and going global on twitter as two options. Inappropriate behaviour should be confronted. If Adria had had a quiet word, and the guys responded with a polite apology, then the situation's resolved. If they'd responded with harsher, dismissive, sexist words, then her response most definitely should not be to just sit there and take it. That's when you take it higher, to the event organisers or your boss, and so on. If, at the end of that whole process, nothing has been resolved, I would see nothing wrong with taking her grievance to her horde of twitter followers (taking it to the church, or gathering as Jesus said). But rather than posting what she did, she'd have had a lot more grounds for grievance, and my guess is that the community would have supported her, rather than turned on her. But I doubt it would have gone that far - the two chaps seem pretty reasonable and gracious, so the situation could have been quickly diffused.
Goperryrevs, I fundamentally agree with what you're saying here. And I appreciate your hanging in with this discussion.
quote:
So saying that quiet words haven't worked before, so I won't bother this time doesn't wash for me.
The issue is that, sometimes, quiet words "work" in the sense that the person spoken to says "sorry" -- and you would say that the situation has been diffused. And it has. But the culture has not changed.
Back 30 years ago, if a man patted a woman's butt in the hallway, and she said, "Knock it off," he might have apologized and kept his hands off her after that. It diffused the situation, but it did not change the culture. The man would continue to harass other women. The abusive and misogynistic culture would not have changed.
And I think changing the underlying dynamics is more important than diffusing the situation. I think that thinking long term, and changing the culture, is better than allowing the bullies to save face. Even though, in other situations, I would want to allow the miscreants to save face.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
And I think changing the underlying dynamics is more important than diffusing the situation. I think that thinking long term, and changing the culture, is better than allowing the bullies to save face. Even though, in other situations, I would want to allow the miscreants to save face.
Josephine, I think you're way OTT on this thread. A mildly suggestive play on jargon between two friends is not an attack on women everywhere. Being fired for it is very likely the end of the career of the person fired, and is reflective of the kind of heavy-handed corporate tyranny that has become the norm in the workplace for both sexes. I think you are letting your past grievances cloud your usually-good judgment here.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ISTM there are several things here that are being mashed together.
-Are the negative aspects of a male dominated culture alive in the tech world
-Was the joking sexist
-Was the joking appropriate
-Was the complainants reaction appropriate
-Were the actions of the employers appropriate
-Were the actions of the trollesphere appropriate
There are three possible answers to each, not one answer to all.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
And I think changing the underlying dynamics is more important than diffusing the situation. I think that thinking long term, and changing the culture, is better than allowing the bullies to save face. Even though, in other situations, I would want to allow the miscreants to save face.
Josephine, I think you're way OTT on this thread. A mildly suggestive play on jargon between two friends is not an attack on women everywhere. Being fired for it is very likely the end of the career of the person fired, and is reflective of the kind of heavy-handed corporate tyranny that has become the norm in the workplace for both sexes. I think you are letting your past grievances cloud your usually-good judgment here.
--Tom Clune
I dunno Tom. As a man I've not had my bum patted or been target of harassment like Josephine reports. Perhaps being fired is an excessive response, but we are never certain of any past incidents with stories such as these. One would like to see due process, but maybe they don't have a very good protocol in this specific situation.
Here's a related example. I recall well a university sciences college where they discussed at length why women formed less than 10% of the student and faculty, and were able to bring it up to just more than 15% when it dropped back to about 8%. The social climate and organizational response to women were cited as key, and all of the subtle ways of mis-treating women came to the fore. It takes much more than enforcement to change things, but it really often also takes something rather dramatic and forceful.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I dunno Tom. As a man I've not had my bum patted or been target of harassment like Josephine reports.
But neither was Josephine (or anyone else AFAWK) subjected to such by these guys. The excessive response is to hold them accountable for totally different behavior by totally different people. There is no excuse for this kind of excess, including that someone else did something else that was excessive. This ain't that subtle a point, and you should be able to grasp it even if you aren't a woman...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Josephine, I think you're way OTT on this thread. A mildly suggestive play on jargon between two friends is not an attack on women everywhere. Being fired for it is very likely the end of the career of the person fired, and is reflective of the kind of heavy-handed corporate tyranny that has become the norm in the workplace for both sexes. I think you are letting your past grievances cloud your usually-good judgment here.
I'll go one further:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
And I think changing the underlying dynamics is more important than diffusing the situation. I think that thinking long term, and changing the culture, is better than allowing the bullies to save face. Even though, in other situations, I would want to allow the miscreants to save face.
In this case, Adria did neither. Her amazingly OTT reaction had two primary outcomes:
1) One of the "offenders" got fired.
2) So did she.
It also has had a bunch of secondary results, including:
1) PyCon's management, along with the management of the company the males were employed by, look the fool for
overreacting to something so trivial;
2) She's convinced a fair number of reasonable observers that the whole affair is simply victim-culture twaddle, and unworthy of their support - and cheapened the real struggles women have had in the workplace both in IT and other fields.
3) The use of the term "rape culture" simply adds to the above - if we are to believe that folks actually conflate a sophmoric joke between two males with a culture that advocates/allows/condones raping women, then the term itself is ludicrous, and any discussion of it more so. Again, it cheapens and degrades the experiences of women who have had substantial problems in the workplace.
I'm with Tom here - I think you've gone way over the top on this one, which is odd, as you're usually someone with quite level-headed commentary and advice I enjoy reading.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
All heterosexual MEN, when gathered in male groups will revert to a more juvenile status, including your precious legislative drafters
Uh, not all of us do. Some of us find it a bit sickening.
And we're back to the poor weak men who can't be expected to behave any better. This is a key part of rape culture.* It's insulting to men. But so many people think boys will be boys and don't expect better.
Carys
*that is a basic narrative that blames women for being raped and excuses the poor behaviour of men because they can't help it. See the reporting of Steubenville. Women have to behave well so the men aren't tempted because they can't resist.
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
1) PyCon's management, along with the management of the company the males were employed by, look the fool for overreacting to something so trivial;
2) She's convinced a fair number of reasonable observers that the whole affair is simply victim-culture twaddle, and unworthy of their support - and cheapened the real struggles women have had in the workplace both in IT and other fields.
This is "the worst thing ever" dodge, which posits that if you're complaining about something that's not literally the worst thing ever then you're focusing on trivialities and distracting attention from what is the worst thing ever. Of course, almost nothing qualifies as "the worst thing ever", so the practical result of following this advice is to discourage anyone from complaining about anything.
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
3) The use of the term "rape culture" simply adds to the above - if we are to believe that folks actually conflate a sophmoric joke between two males with a culture that advocates/allows/condones raping women, then the term itself is ludicrous, and any discussion of it more so. Again, it cheapens and degrades the experiences of women who have had substantial problems in the workplace.
Given the absence of "a culture that advocates/allows/condones raping women", how do you explain the large number of rape threats and death threat received by Ms. Richards?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is "the worst thing ever" dodge, which posits that if you're complaining about something that's not literally the worst thing ever then you're focusing on trivialities and distracting attention from what is the worst thing ever.
No. It really isn't. It's specifically about the way in which she complained rather than what she complained about.
To use the previous example; mistaking black men for janitors *MAY* be part of a continuum of behaviour that ends in lynching, but it doesn't deserve to be sanctioned in the same way as murder.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
All the publicity given to this row makes it less likely that anyone is going to tell a 'big dongle' joke in either public or private (are there still male/female connectors?). It's puerile and offputting, sure. Do jokes like that make it a less conducive environment for a woman to work in? Yes, I'd agree. Especially if they happen every five minutes.
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
The excessive response is to hold them accountable for totally different behavior by totally different people.
To me, I think this is a critical point.
I have every expectation of being held to account for my professional behaviour in professional settings. Holding me to account for someone else's behaviour (and for whom I'm not responsible) seems to me to violate a fundamental tenet of human social interaction, that of being responsible for one's own actions. It also sets an enormously dangerous precedent, against which people - all people - would need protecting.
I know I can help in providing a non-sexist/non-racist/non-homophobic environment by making sure that shitty behaviour that I see doesn't get a by, and I've avoided sexual harassment in my current workplace by, you know, not sexually harassing other members of staff. It's actually not that difficult. A bit like avoiding being labelled as a rapist by the simple expedient of not raping anyone.
I know what the phrase 'rape culture' is supposed to mean. That there were after-the-event death and rape threats is evidence that there is a rape culture. But in this particular instance, the two men involved in the initial exchange were not manifesting this. That right there is the problem: one guy joking about the other's big dongle isn't per se part of rape culture, and saying it is, is hyperbole.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is "the worst thing ever" dodge, which posits that if you're complaining about something that's not literally the worst thing ever then you're focusing on trivialities and distracting attention from what is the worst thing ever.
More like the "this is making a mountain out a molehill observation". Or perhaps the "boy who cried wolf observation". If every time someone makes an off color joke, some yahoo cries "rape culture!", it won't be long before the phrase gets regarded as what it's being used for - a meaningless trope.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Given the absence of "a culture that advocates/allows/condones raping women", how do you explain the large number of rape threats and death threat received by Ms. Richards?
Conflation. The two have nothing to do with one another. Two men making a wise crack at a conference have nothing at all to do with jackasses on the internet making horrid threats which for which they ought to be prosecuted. If the men in question, or persons who could be reliably linked to them in substantive manner, were responsible for the threats, you'd have something here. As that link doesn't exist, to my knowledge, it's a red herring.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I know what the phrase 'rape culture' is supposed to mean. That there were after-the-event death and rape threats is evidence that there is a rape culture. But in this particular instance, the two men involved in the initial exchange were not manifesting this. That right there is the problem: one guy joking about the other's big dongle isn't per se part of rape culture, and saying it is, is hyperbole.
This.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is "the worst thing ever" dodge, which posits that if you're complaining about something that's not literally the worst thing ever then you're focusing on trivialities and distracting attention from what is the worst thing ever.
More like the "this is making a mountain out a molehill observation". Or perhaps the "boy who cried wolf observation". If every time someone makes an off color joke, some yahoo cries "rape culture!", it won't be long before the phrase gets regarded as what it's being used for - a meaningless trope.
For reference, here's the hyperventilating over-reaction you find so over-the-top.
quote:
Not cool. Jokes about forking repo's in a sexual way and "big" dongles. Right behind me #pycon.
The double-standard at work here seems to be that "off color joke[s]" are trivial, but accurately describing off color jokes and calling them "Not cool" is a severe over-reaction. For some reason the jokes are trivial when told, but horrible character smears when repeated and correctly attributed.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For reference, here's the hyperventilating over-reaction you find so over-the-top.
quote:
Not cool. Jokes about forking repo's in a sexual way and "big" dongles. Right behind me #pycon.
The double-standard at work here seems to be that "off color joke[s]" are trivial, but accurately describing off color jokes and calling them "Not cool" is a severe over-reaction.
No. The over reaction was linking the picture on twitter.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For reference, here's the hyperventilating over-reaction you find so over-the-top.
quote:
Not cool. Jokes about forking repo's in a sexual way and "big" dongles. Right behind me #pycon.
The double-standard at work here seems to be that "off color joke[s]" are trivial, but accurately describing off color jokes and calling them "Not cool" is a severe over-reaction. For some reason the jokes are trivial when told, but horrible character smears when repeated and correctly attributed.
The over the top part is in the not turning around and saying, "Not cool", or even having a quiet word with the PyCon organizers, but in plastering the faces of the folks involved on her Twitter feed for the world, and having them ejected from the conference. If they were schoolkids, I imagine someone would be complaining they were being cyber-bullied.
The "rape culture" trope/overreaction belongs to our dear Shipmates, I'm afraid. Which is sad - as noted above, folks who generally are rational and well-spoken seem to lose all sense of proportionality on this thread.
[x-post with Chris Stiles, with whom I heartily agree]
[ 26. March 2013, 18:01: Message edited by: jbohn ]
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
All heterosexual MEN, when gathered in male groups will revert to a more juvenile status, including your precious legislative drafters
Uh, not all of us do. Some of us find it a bit sickening.
And we're back to the poor weak men who can't be expected to behave any better. This is a key part of rape culture.* It's insulting to men. But so many people think boys will be boys and don't expect better.
Carys
*that is a basic narrative that blames women for being raped and excuses the poor behaviour of men because they can't help it. See the reporting of Steubenville. Women have to behave well so the men aren't tempted because they can't resist.
Well I think there's a fundamental difference between juvenile humour ('big dongles') and rape culture, where demeaning comments are made about women/sexualised comments/pats on butt/whatever. I don't think such jokes are remotely funny, but making an analogy between a male body organ and the shape of a dongle is just childish and immature, I don't think it's particularly sexist, and I'm more horrified that two grown men are making jokes of a Year 4-type level. I find it sickening that it's assumed that men revert to childishness when together.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
No. The over reaction was linking the picture on twitter.
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
The over the top part is in the not turning around and saying, "Not cool", or even having a quiet word with the PyCon organizers, but in plastering the faces of the folks involved on her Twitter feed for the world, and having them ejected from the conference.
There are numerous possible downsides to starting a conversation that could very easily end in a shouting match during someone else's presentation. There are also some logistical difficulties to providing an accurate written description of two different individuals in a 140 character tweet, or in providing a longer written description to PyCon's e-mail address and hoping someone is monitoring the account closely enough to respond in a timely manner.
Which still doesn't answer my question. If the offense is so trivial, why is it considered gross character assassination to mention it publicly?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
There are numerous possible downsides to starting a conversation that could very easily end in a shouting match during someone else's presentation.
Waiting until the end would work, as would leaving the room and speaking to the conference organizers.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
There are also some logistical difficulties to providing an accurate written description of two different individuals in a 140 character tweet, or in providing a longer written description to PyCon's e-mail address and hoping someone is monitoring the account closely enough to respond in a timely manner.
The issue is in the tweeting at all - why do it? And why add the picture? The only reason to do so is to try and cause trouble for the people she's tweeting about - employment or otherwise. And again, simply speaking to the organizers avoids both of the technological pitfalls you mention. I've never been to any sort of conference or convention that didn't have a place for the conference/convention staff to handle issues that come up.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Which still doesn't answer my question. If the offense is so trivial, why is it considered gross character assassination to mention it publicly?
It's not - until we take the step of using it to get the men involved removed from the conference, and thusly fired, for the triviality - which she did. At that point, it becomes about pushing an agenda, and one she apparently is known for pushing at other people's expense.
The joke(s) was/were stupid. That doesn't give anyone the need or right to see how far they can go in trying to wreck the careers of the people telling them. It's just plain vindictive, and wrong - far wronger than a big dongle joke. I, for one, am glad she got sacked - karma is a bitch sometimes.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Which still doesn't answer my question. If the offense is so trivial, why is it considered gross character assassination to mention it publicly?
It's not - until we take the step of using it to get the men involved removed from the conference, and thusly fired, for the triviality - which she did.
So to work with an analogy, if she'd seen someone littering (a relatively trivial offense) at PyCon and tweeted "Not cool. Just leaving their lunch trash in the middle of the floor #pycon", it would have been over the top to include a pic of the offenders? It's her job to enforce Pycon's "No Littering" policy instead of just reporting it and going about her business? Have I got your position right on this?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
I, for one, am glad she got sacked - karma is a bitch sometimes.
Getting a bit carried away here ISTM.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Reddit founder Alexis Ohanian is quoted in the Huffington Post, which is worth quoting here and you can also check out the article.
quote:
from above link:
The situation, rather than igniting a constructive conversation about what it means to be a woman in tech, started a violent backlash against Richards and women in general. This troubled Ohanian. In his blog post he writes:
The comments (and support for them) I’ve seen over the past few days have really disappointed me and I really hope this is a chance for us to reflect on how we use these tools to foster the tech community. This isn't "political correctness," this is you having the courage to use your words to create an environment that promotes an open exchange of ideas -- not alienate people and certainly not terrorize them.
He's recognizing and stating what some of us are trying to say here.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I think that there is a false dichotomy between having a quiet word and going global on twitter as two options. Inappropriate behaviour should be confronted. If Adria had had a quiet word, and the guys responded with a polite apology, then the situation's resolved. If they'd responded with harsher, dismissive, sexist words, then her response most definitely should not be to just sit there and take it. That's when you take it higher, to the event organisers or your boss, and so on. If, at the end of that whole process, nothing has been resolved, I would see nothing wrong with taking her grievance to her horde of twitter followers (taking it to the church, or gathering as Jesus said). But rather than posting what she did, she'd have had a lot more grounds for grievance, and my guess is that the community would have supported her, rather than turned on her. But I doubt it would have gone that far - the two chaps seem pretty reasonable and gracious, so the situation could have been quickly diffused.
Goperryrevs, I fundamentally agree with what you're saying here. And I appreciate your hanging in with this discussion.
quote:
So saying that quiet words haven't worked before, so I won't bother this time doesn't wash for me.
The issue is that, sometimes, quiet words "work" in the sense that the person spoken to says "sorry" -- and you would say that the situation has been diffused. And it has. But the culture has not changed.
Back 30 years ago, if a man patted a woman's butt in the hallway, and she said, "Knock it off," he might have apologized and kept his hands off her after that. It diffused the situation, but it did not change the culture. The man would continue to harass other women. The abusive and misogynistic culture would not have changed.
And I think changing the underlying dynamics is more important than diffusing the situation. I think that thinking long term, and changing the culture, is better than allowing the bullies to save face. Even though, in other situations, I would want to allow the miscreants to save face.
Thanks Jospehine. I think we both agree that the culture needs to change, just differ on how we think that might happen. I think that the one soul at a time method is much more effective than the blunderbuss method.
And again, I don't disagree with a lot of what you say - just that I wouldn't apply it in this situation. I don't get the impression that these guys were bullies or predators or whatever. Just a couple of normal blokes forgetting the context of where they were and acting childish. As someone mentioned earlier, if anything, Adria's behaviour could be viewed as cyber bullying, given the fact that she had thousands of twitter followers and went to humiliate the two guys by posting their picture there. Personally I think it's harsh to call her on that, but I can see the argument.
I'm not sure I have much more to say, but I'll keep following the thread ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I think we both agree that the culture needs to change, just differ on how we think that might happen. I think that the one soul at a time method is much more effective than the blunderbuss method.
What evidence do you have that the "one soul at a time" method has ever been effective at changing a misogynistic and hostile workplace environment? How long do women have to try that method before we're allowed to conclude that it isn't effective and try something else? And whose permission do we need to get before we escalate?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So to work with an analogy, if she'd seen someone littering (a relatively trivial offense) at PyCon and tweeted "Not cool. Just leaving their lunch trash in the middle of the floor #pycon", it would have been over the top to include a pic of the offenders? It's her job to enforce Pycon's "No Littering" policy instead of just reporting it and going about her business? Have I got your position right on this?
Not exactly - littering doesn't have quite the stigma attached that alleged sexual harassment (and I'm aware she didn't use those words, but it's what she's implying, and what the "rape culture" brigade is on about) does. And the fact is that she didn't "report it and go on about her business".
That said, there is a parallel there - she's using public shaming in a way that is a) not particularly conducive to changing anyone's behavior (and certainly not the behavior of the people she wants confronted, but can't seem to confront herself); and b) likely to cause harm to the person(s) she's shaming out of all proportion to the gravity of the offense. So yes, over the top. Unnecessary. Petty.
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
I, for one, am glad she got sacked - karma is a bitch sometimes.
Getting a bit carried away here ISTM.
--Tom Clune
Perhaps you're right. It just chaps my rear a bit, I suppose. I get annoyed easily by people who abuse victim culture to push a political agenda. There are real problems to be confronted, as Josephine and others have pointed out above, and it's infuriating to have them cheapened by stunts like Ms. Richards'.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Does she have the right to complain? Absolutely. Nobody should have to endure offensive comments at work. Should she complain? Probably, yes. Tech is strongly male-dominated, which makes it easy for a culture which is uncomfortable for women to develop, even if no offense is intended. Given that, a zero-tolerance approach, picking up on every inappropriate comment rather than letting the mild ones slide, is probably no bad thing.
Should she complain by tweeting the photo of the offenders to her 12,000 followers? No.
I think this is the element that makes me the most uneasy. Turn around and yell at the guys for being jerks? Sure. Yell at them and inform them she's reporting them to their employer and to convention staff? Sure. Tweeting the incident with the photo? Eh, seems a little passive-aggressive to me. Maybe that's just a personal sensitivity I have, though--I tend to feel people ought to confront those they have problems with, though I realize that there are lots of situations in which that just isn't possible or practical.
As far as the firings are concerned, well, that's corporate risk management for you. I don't think any of them should have been fired over this, assuming that these were all first offenses--but when your company is on public view examples have to be made, I suppose.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
What evidence do you have that the "one soul at a time" method has ever been effective at changing a misogynistic and hostile workplace environment? How long do women have to try that method before we're allowed to conclude that it isn't effective and try something else? And whose permission do we need to get before we escalate?
I don't see anyone here saying that women in general have to seek permission in general before 'they escalate' (whatever that means).
I think people are just pushing back on the idea that a fatuous set of remarks of a sexual nature (seemingly misunderstood) should necessarily lead to public vilification as a matter of natural justice.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Not exactly - littering doesn't have quite the stigma attached that alleged sexual harassment (and I'm aware she didn't use those words, but it's what she's implying, and what the "rape culture" brigade is on about) does.
Is there a stigma to dongle jokes? I thought your whole argument was premised on the idea that the kinds of jokes involved are universally regarded as trivial. If so, where's the stigma from being associated with them?
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
And the fact is that she didn't "report it and go on about her business".
That's pretty much exactly what she did. You just seem to be upset that it was done transparently rather than in secrecy. As far as I'm aware, there are no media accounts that she also pointed and laughed.
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
That said, there is a parallel there - she's using public shaming in a way that is a) not particularly conducive to changing anyone's behavior (and certainly not the behavior of the people she wants confronted, but can't seem to confront herself); and b) likely to cause harm to the person(s) she's shaming out of all proportion to the gravity of the offense. So yes, over the top. Unnecessary. Petty.
Once again, if the behavior is both acceptable and trivial, where's the shaming? If these remarks are harmless, trivial, innocent, etc., why is this more inflammatory that tweeting someone's pic and saying "this guy eats food when he's hungry"?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
You know what pisses me off most about this thread - the assumption that men are the ones likely to engage in making puerile jokes. In my experience women are just as likely to say this sort of stuff. And I still don't see how the joke in question is offensive at all. Someone decided to take offense but that's a different thing.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Once again, if the behavior is both acceptable and trivial, where's the shaming? If these remarks are harmless, trivial, innocent, etc., why is this more inflammatory that tweeting someone's pic and saying "this guy eats food when he's hungry"?
Because she is editorialising in saying "not cool". The intention is clearly to get them in trouble or belittle them. Intentions matter. And you know what, I think I would be pissed off if someone with 10,000 twitter followers posted a picture of me without my permission no matter what.
[ 26. March 2013, 19:55: Message edited by: quantpole ]
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
You know what pisses me off most about this thread - the assumption that men are the ones likely to engage in making puerile jokes. In my experience women are just as likely to say this sort of stuff.
We're not assuming anything. We're discussing a couple of men who actually made some puerile jokes in a professional setting. This is a specific example. No assumption necessary.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
Yes but apparently this is an issue because it is part of a culture of putting women down. I don't see that.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
What evidence do you have that the "one soul at a time" method has ever been effective at changing a misogynistic and hostile workplace environment?
Well, I think we have a pretty good example that the blunderbuss approach can divide and damage readily available here...
I don't have evidence, other than my observation of the kind of confrontation that frees people and the kind of confrontation that entrenches people.
I don't think culture changes 'top down' very easily. Individuals change, and then you suddenly realise that the culture's changed. That means we do what we can as an individual in our workplaces and try to change things that are wrong. And we discuss it where we can. No one person can magically change everything, but they can influence those around them, and hope others are doing the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
How long do women have to try that method before we're allowed to conclude that it isn't effective and try something else? And whose permission do we need to get before we escalate?
Immediately, and they don't need any permission. But IMO it should be proportional, and as part of a reasonable process, as I mentioned earlier (again, I think the Matthew 18 passage sets out the ideal process).
One thing I've become certain on over the years is that it's always wrong to deal with conflict by going over someone's head before having the guts to confront them yourself first and give them the opportunity to reconsider their behaviour. It's the coward's way out, and it usually makes a situation worse. It also shows a complete lack of respect for your fellow human being, which you should have whether or not they've given you the same courtesy.
As far as I can tell, Adria failed on the above not just on this occasion, but on a number of other occasions previously, in her dealings with men, and her dealings with women. The result is that her actions are divisive and counter-productive. I think that's really sad.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
In this case, Adria did neither. Her amazingly OTT reaction had two primary outcomes:
1) One of the "offenders" got fired.
2) So did she.
Do you think there's any significance at all to the fact that one of the men was fired, and not the other?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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