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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Joke Leads to Termination
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Until then, men can do things to try to avoid making women feel threatened or cornered. As a simple example, take the next elevator instead of getting into an elevator alone with a woman.
I genuinely don't see how this is different to saying a black person should take the next elevator instead of getting into an elevator alone with a white person, so as to not make the white person feel threatened or cornered.
Our culture coddles black criminals? Blames white victims of black crime? Doesn't take people seriously who report that they were mugged by a black man? What holler are you living in?
Uh, MSNBC?
Seriously, there's no way I'm going to wait for the next elevator in that scenario unless the woman seems visibly agitated by my presence there.
Frankly, if a woman sees every man with a penis as a potential rapist, then she needs to take self-defense courses, carry some mace (or, God forbid, a gun), and/or avoid being alone with men entirely. I have the deepest of sympathies for any woman who's gone through the horror of rape or abuse (I have family in that situation); but it's not at all practical for me to live my life assuming that every woman I meet has been a victim of sexual assault. I'm not going to rape anyone, and I'm not going to live as if I'm a potential rapist: if anything, that would arouse more suspicion than living normally.
In my mind, the race analogy fails because while one almost never hears of women raping men, one often hears of people of all races carrying out heinous crimes. One ought to be equally suspicious of white potential muggers as black.
But I would also say that a fewer percentage of men are rapists than are muggers, so one might as well view all strangers as potential muggers if they look like they have some muscle or a pocket in which to store a knife. But we would typically call that paranoia, no?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
One ought to be equally suspicious of white potential muggers as black.
It was widely reported some time ago that the vast majority of muggings in London were carried out by young black men. By contrast, the vast majority of burglaries were carried out by young white men.
So, statistically, one should be much more suspicious of the black man walking down the street, and of the white man hanging around in the alley behind your house.
It remains true that a young man of any race is more likely to steal the woman's cellphone than her virtue.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
One ought to be equally suspicious of white potential muggers as black.
It was widely reported some time ago that the vast majority of muggings in London were carried out by young black men. By contrast, the vast majority of burglaries were carried out by young white men.
So, statistically, one should be much more suspicious of the black man walking down the street, and of the white man hanging around in the alley behind your house.
It remains true that a young man of any race is more likely to steal the woman's cellphone than her virtue.
My point was that whereas both/all races are equally capable of violent crime; all men are capable of rape, but women are generally perceived as incapable*.
Thus, the race analogy fails (in my mind, at least).
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*I've heard of women raping men, but I can't quite figure out how they would do so: unless they are sodomizing them with a foreign object?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
*I've heard of women raping men, but I can't quite figure out how they would do so: unless they are sodomizing them with a foreign object?
If this is a serious question, then the answer is that the activity you describe is very rare indeed. Most cases of woman-on-man rape are, to my knowledge, either normal vaginal intercourse, with the man either forced or under duress to perform (and yes, these cases are pretty rare, too) or the rape of a man by another man, with the woman as an accomplice.
Whether either of these qualifies as the crime of rape or not depends on your jurisdiction.
(Possibly more common still is the statutory rape of a male child by a female teacher. Again, whether teacher/teen sex is "rape" is jurisdiction-dependent.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I genuinely don't see how this is different to saying a black person should take the next elevator instead of getting into an elevator alone with a white person, so as to not make the white person feel threatened or cornered.
You think that doesn't happen? If a young black man makes a white person feel threatened or cornered, bad things happen. Just ask Trayvon Martin's family. Young black men are often told not to do anything to make a white person feel threatened or cornered. Especially if the white person is a large man or a small woman.
It happens all the time. Some while back, a young white woman I know was working at an after-school program in a black neighborhood, when it came to her attention that the reason so few young teenaged boys were coming to the program was that she was teaching there. The boys had been warned against being there when she was there because of what history and experience told them could happen in such situations.
It's not that any and every young white woman is going to mistake any friendliness for assault, and result in the boy being beaten up by her white male friends. But it's impossible for the boys to know which young white women are safe to interact with. And some of the boys are told, or decide on their own, that the risk of trusting the wrong white woman is too great to risk trusting any white woman.
That doesn't mean that every white woman is dangerous in that way. It means that it's impossible to tell which white women are dangerous in that way.
Similarly, it's impossible for women to tell which men are dangerous. This is short. Maybe it would help you understand.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I have the deepest of sympathies for any woman who's gone through the horror of rape or abuse (I have family in that situation); but it's not at all practical for me to live my life assuming that every woman I meet has been a victim of sexual assault.
You're right. It would be inconvenient for you to assume that every woman you meet has been a victim of sexual assault, since it's only one in five.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
[QUOTE]You're right. It would be inconvenient for you to assume that every woman you meet has been a victim of sexual assault, since it's only one in five.
I don't treat the women whom I interact with any different than I treat the men I interact with: I do my best to treat all people pretty much the same regardless of race or gender.
Forgive me, but I find the above implication (that treating women the same as men makes me into a convenience-seeking asshole) to be ridiculous. Should I never get on the elevator alone with anyone?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I genuinely don't see how this is different to saying a black person should take the next elevator instead of getting into an elevator alone with a white person, so as to not make the white person feel threatened or cornered.
Given the reality of which colour has more harmed which, black people should avoid elevators with white people for their own safety. But then, own continents didn't work, so...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
[QUOTE]You're right. It would be inconvenient for you to assume that every woman you meet has been a victim of sexual assault, since it's only one in five.
I don't treat the women whom I interact with any different than I treat the men I interact with: I do my best to treat all people pretty much the same regardless of race or gender.
Forgive me, but I find the above implication (that treating women the same as men makes me into a convenience-seeking asshole) to be ridiculous. Should I never get on the elevator alone with anyone?
I don't know. I didn't notice where you said that you treat women the same as men. I noticed where you said it wasn't practical to treat women as if they had been victims of rape, and where you spoke of the horror of rape. I found the juxtaposition odd, given the large proportion of women are in fact survivors of rape.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
No, because I did not say that every act of sexual harrassment was equivalent to rape, I said that it's always about rape. When one person sexually harasses another then, regardless of whether the perpetrator is or is not conscious of the fact, they are asserting their right to invade that person's boundaries. The power dynamic underpinning that is the dynamic of rape. This is why it is unusual, but not impossible, for women to sexually harass men.
And that's the language that I have a problem with. It's "about" rape in the same sense that a slap in the face is "about" murder. Assault and murder have the same "underpinning power dynamic" too, but that doesn't make it reasonable to use the word murder in the discussion of a punch in the face.
This. Absolutely.
There's a massive category error involved in saying that these things are 'about' the worst example on the scale. Assault and murder are both about violence, not 'about murder'. And rape is at the top end of the scale of results of unwelcome sexual attention. That doesn't make all forms of unwelcome sexual attention 'about' rape.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
[QUOTE]You're right. It would be inconvenient for you to assume that every woman you meet has been a victim of sexual assault, since it's only one in five.
I don't treat the women whom I interact with any different than I treat the men I interact with: I do my best to treat all people pretty much the same regardless of race or gender.
Forgive me, but I find the above implication (that treating women the same as men makes me into a convenience-seeking asshole) to be ridiculous. Should I never get on the elevator alone with anyone?
I don't know. I didn't notice where you said that you treat women the same as men. I noticed where you said it wasn't practical to treat women as if they had been victims of rape, and where you spoke of the horror of rape. I found the juxtaposition odd, given the large proportion of women are in fact survivors of rape.
A large number of them are in fact survivors of some form of sexual assault, based on your own links.
Now I'm going to be accused of minimising the seriousness of sexual assault or attempted rape in a minute. Let me clear, I'm not. But we do seem to love throwing this rape word around a heck of a lot.
If I took a statistic that said 20% of people had experienced an assault or attempted assault of some kind and started to referring to how many people had experienced 'murder', you'd all look at me funny.
I'm all for discussing just how damn serious the statistics are for the whole range of sexually related negative experiences of women. But stop using 'rape' as a magic trigger word. If every single thing that a man does to a woman is 'rape', then you simply have no scale of severity to work with. You have no scale of punishment, and you have no way of recognising that being held down and forcibly penetrated is STILL likely to be considerably more traumatic for a woman than having an ugly man leer at her in a bar.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
And here's something else I want to say, which I actually think I'm in a fairly good place to say because for my own experiences, there is never a woman involved.
Not every unwelcome sexual advance is 'rape' or even remotely 'about' it. People don't get together and have sex by wearing little signs around their neck saying 'please approach me, I want intercourse'. They do it far more obliquely than that. They do it by a series of flirtations and signals.
If someone comes on to you and you're not interested, that is NOT 'about rape' in any sane meaning. It is about them being interested and you not being interested. It's only a problem if you convey your disinterest fairly clearly and they don't back off.
Fairly clearly means what it says, by the way. If you playfully dismiss them, that can easily be interpreted as play, not as dismissal. Far too many people don't disengage because they think there's something 'impolite' about making damn clear that things are not going to continue onto the other person's hoped for conclusion.
Who knows, maybe in the case of women they're culturally conditioned to thinking that they have let men think they're in with a chance, or that it's rude to to flatly say no.
But for my part, I've certainly had guys tell me that they're not interested despite my pinings, and I've also had to flatly tell guys that I'm not putting out for them. It's a problem when someone doesn't take No for an answer, but first you have to tell them No.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A large number of them are in fact survivors of some form of sexual assault, based on your own links.
Sorry. I should have said "rape or attempted rape":
quote:
Nearly one in five women surveyed said they had been raped or had experienced an attempted rape at some point ... The researchers defined rape as completed forced penetration, forced penetration facilitated by drugs or alcohol, or attempted forced penetration.
[/qb]
Which is not the same has having an ugly man leer at you in a bar.
Look, I'm sorry if you don't like the term "rape culture." I understand thinking it is misleading. But it's the term that we have. Like homophobia. When people want to argue that they're not afraid of gays, so there's no such thing as homophobia, they're kinda missing the point. And it's the same with the term "rape culture." That is the term that's used to describe a culture in which it's acceptable for men to violate women's boundaries, and when women get blamed both when their boundaries are violated ("she was asking for it") and when they object to or attempt to prevent boundary violations. It isn't just tossing the word "rape" around to make men feel bad.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I don't know. I didn't notice where you said that you treat women the same as men. I noticed where you said it wasn't practical to treat women as if they had been victims of rape, and where you spoke of the horror of rape. I found the juxtaposition odd, given the large proportion of women are in fact survivors of rape.
Well, if I'm aware of a co-worker or acquaintance that is a survivor of rape or sexual assault, then I am absolutely sensitive to that and will (to the best of my ability) act accordingly. As I said, I do have the deepest of sympathy for anyone who has gone through that horrible ordeal.
But at the same time I have to decide how to act towards everyone else: I can treat women the same as I do men or I can treat them all as potential rape survivors and walk on eggshells, always take a different elevator, make sure I'm never alone with them, make sure they're always between me and the door, cross to the other side of the street when I see one approaching etc.
Practically speaking, most of the women I meet in my line of work would not want to be treated different because of their gender, regardless of statistics concerning rape in this country. One hint that I'm not taking them seriously and our working relationship is damaged (the same holds true for the men I find myself working with).
If taking that position is wrong, would you please explain to me what is right? Do I treat women the same or different?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
For those wanting more info about statistics, fallout from sexual assault, try RAINN.org Start with the "Get Info" section. Lots of info there about assaults on both men and women.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
If taking that position is wrong, would you please explain to me what is right? Do I treat women the same or different?
Should I avoid getting in a lift alone with a man too? It's very possible that that man is also the victim of rape or sexual abuse. The statistics are lower, but there are still plenty of men who have been through that, and for all I know, the man next to me in the lift is one of them.
If not, why not?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
ISTM there are two factors at play. First is wanting to change the culture, and the second is being aware of what an individual's history might be. And those two things might sometimes be in conflict.
We might agree that the best thing to change rape culture positively is for men not to get in lifts with women. I'm not convinced of that yet, but let's assume that is the case.
Now, for a woman who's been raped and would feel in danger, not getting in the lift would be a kind thing to do.
However, now imagine another woman, who's never been raped, but has rejection issues. Her father, husband and other men have abandoned her, and she feels unwanted and unattractive. Then she sees a man consciously avoid getting in a lift with her. Is she going to think "that's okay, he was just avoiding getting in a lift with me, in case I was the victim of rape", or is she going to feel even more rejected - "what's so wrong with me that he can't even bear to get in a lift with me?"
I just think there are lots of factors at play in situations like these, and that a simple cover-all solution is too simplistic.
Simply being conscious of other people, and doing your best to do what it seems they'd appreciate appears to me to be the best course of action. We might get it wrong sometimes, but that happens, and I don't think there's some magic solution that can fix that for every situation.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
We might agree that the best thing to change rape culture positively is for men not to get in lifts with women. I'm not convinced of that yet, but let's assume that is the case.
No, that's not the point of that. That won't change rape culture a bit, nor is it intended to. You missed the point.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Our culture coddles black criminals? Blames white victims of black crime? Doesn't take people seriously who report that they were mugged by a black man? What holler are you living in?
That's got nothing to do with this. If the way society treats rape victims is wrong then that is what needs to change, not the way it treats all men. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
We might agree that the best thing to change rape culture positively is for men not to get in lifts with women. I'm not convinced of that yet, but let's assume that is the case.
No, that's not the point of that. That won't change rape culture a bit, nor is it intended to. You missed the point.
Okay, I re-read your post and see that it's a temporary measure until society does change. Cool, I get it now.
But that's the third time that you've quoted/responded to the least important, incidental part of a post I've made, but not the main point I was making. For whatever reason, despite things being ever so clear to you, they are murkier and more nuanced for me and others. Sorry if that's frustrating you, but I'd really appreciate some other responses to points I've raised!
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Sorry, second, not third. I thought I should just check and I'd misremembered.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
And it's the same with the term "rape culture." That is the term that's used to describe a culture in which it's acceptable for men to violate women's boundaries, and when women get blamed both when their boundaries are violated ("she was asking for it") and when they object to or attempt to prevent boundary violations. It isn't just tossing the word "rape" around to make men feel bad.
I agree with every word of this. It's just that when things like treating all men as potential rapists or saying that violating a woman's boundaries includes getting into the same elevator as her are included I start having a problem with it.
[ 29. March 2013, 08:13: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Not every unwelcome sexual advance is 'rape' or even remotely 'about' it.
I think that some scodes of conduct define any unwelcome sexual advance as harassment - but, like you, I cannot agree with that definition; genuine misunderstandings happen.
I've just looked up the legal definition, which in the UK anyway, now seems to include sexual discrimination. Although sexual discrimination is obviously wrong, I'm not keen on broadening the definition of harassment in that way.
So when I'm talking about sexual harassment, I'm assuming we're talking about sexual approaches which are either assumed for no good (sane, sensible) reason to be welcome or where the perpetrator is completely indifferent as to whether or not the approach will be welcome. And I still say that that is always about rape.
By way of an analogy, lets look back at slavery, as it was. Not everything that happened to slaves was terrible. Some were treated kindly, some less kindly. Some might be beaten, flogged, hanged, but others might only get a mild slap or a word of reproof. The thing is, though, in those latter cases, the bottom line was "I can do what I like to you - you have no rights." Every aspect of slavery - even the kindly acts - was about that.
Sexual harassment - in most Western countries, anyway - is different, because women do have rights, but the bottom line of all sexual harassment is "I would if I could". That applies even if the perpetrator is "just having a bit of fun" and doesn't really mean it. Because the fact is that it has been really meant often enough for it to be irrelevant whether any one individual means it or not. It's still not actual rape, of course - and nobody is saying it is - but rape is the bottom line.
That doesn't make all men rapists, but it does make all perpetrators of sexual harassment proto-rapists. And although only one in five women may have experienced actual sexual assault, I believe that most women have experienced some form of sexual harassment at some time in their lives.
40% of women in London have been subject to sexual harassment in a public place. In Coventry, it's as high as 60%. And that's just in public.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
We might agree that the best thing to change rape culture positively is for men not to get in lifts with women. I'm not convinced of that yet, but let's assume that is the case.
No. But what might be necessary is, if a woman gets off an elevator when a man gets on, if other people did not respond by saying, "Sheesh, what's wrong with her? Does she think every man is a rapist?" or "If she's getting off the lift because he's a man, she's a sexist pig, too." Because those responses -- which often come from otherwise good, decent men who would never willfully cross a woman's boundaries -- are also part of rape culture. Folks who say those kinds of things are not violating her boundaries, but they are insisting that she doesn't have the right to set her own boundaries.
quote:
Simply being conscious of other people, and doing your best to do what it seems they'd appreciate appears to me to be the best course of action. We might get it wrong sometimes, but that happens, and I don't think there's some magic solution that can fix that for every situation.
Agree.
But we can start by not blaming women for defending their boundaries.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
[QUOTE]You're right. It would be inconvenient for you to assume that every woman you meet has been a victim of sexual assault, since it's only one in five.
I don't treat the women whom I interact with any different than I treat the men I interact with: I do my best to treat all people pretty much the same regardless of race or gender.
Forgive me, but I find the above implication (that treating women the same as men makes me into a convenience-seeking asshole) to be ridiculous. Should I never get on the elevator alone with anyone?
I don't know. I didn't notice where you said that you treat women the same as men. I noticed where you said it wasn't practical to treat women as if they had been victims of rape, and where you spoke of the horror of rape. I found the juxtaposition odd, given the large proportion of women are in fact survivors of rape.
But your link doesn't support that. Here is from the article you quoted: quote:
The surveyors elicited information on types of aggression not previously studied in national surveys, including sexual violence other than rape, psychological aggression, coercion and control of reproductive and sexual health.
The plain fact is that every person, male or female, on the planet could claim to be the "victim" of sexual assault by the definition they used. It is a marvel of restraint on the part of the people asked in the survey that the number was so low. If this "survey" was intended to be an objective assessment of sexual assault, the people running it were incompetent. More likely, it was a piece of advocacy masquerading as science.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
I think the original argument is getting obscured slightly. It seems to me that some people here are trying to say that the punishment for the original offence should be (and always be presumably as a matter of justice) public vilification without actually saying it.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
But your link doesn't support that. Here is from the article you quoted:
quote:
The surveyors elicited information on types of aggression not previously studied in national surveys, including sexual violence other than rape, psychological aggression, coercion and control of reproductive and sexual health.
The plain fact is that every person, male or female, on the planet could claim to be the "victim" of sexual assault by the definition they used. It is a marvel of restraint on the part of the people asked in the survey that the number was so low. If this "survey" was intended to be an objective assessment of sexual assault, the people running it were incompetent. More likely, it was a piece of advocacy masquerading as science.
--Tom Clune
Wow. Way to totally mischaracterize an entire body of work [PDF], tclune. You seem to be under the impression that all surveys ask only one question. Or that if they ask more than one question (e.g. "How many people have ever used physical force or threats to physically harm you to have vaginal sex?", "How many of your romantic or sexual partners have ever tried to keep you from seeing or talking to your family or friends?") that all the answers are rolled in together to generate one single number. In other words, it's not those politicized bastards over at the CDC who are conflating coercive psychological abuse with rape, it's you.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...if a woman gets off an elevator when a man gets on, if other people did not respond by saying, "Sheesh, what's wrong with her? Does she think every man is a rapist?" or "If she's getting off the lift because he's a man, she's a sexist pig, too." Because those responses -- which often come from otherwise good, decent men who would never willfully cross a woman's boundaries -- are also part of rape culture. Folks who say those kinds of things are not violating her boundaries, but they are insisting that she doesn't have the right to set her own boundaries.
Who pays that much attention to those who get on and off an elevator?
If I see one person get off as soon as another gets on, I assume that person suddenly thought of something he/she needed to do before she took the elevator. That is, if I'm paying any attention at all.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I think Croesos is right on this one. I don't think we should assume the CDC is conflicting harassment and rape. I know it's anecdotal, but I have made it a real point of listening on this issue since a dear friend of mine was attacked. Now, I have never been assaulted in that way, but every single time the issue has come up with other women--I have not heard the issue discussed with men around, so that might or might not change things--at least 1/3 of the women present have been rape victims. Not ONE of the women I have talked to reported it. Now since I have not brought up the issue every time, sometimes others brought it up, there is also some selection bias. Still, I have heard far too many women speak of their experiences to presume that there isn't a hell of a lot of unreported rape going on. One in five sounds about right to me.
P.S. What Moo said
[ 29. March 2013, 13:58: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Wow. Way to totally mischaracterize an entire body of work [PDF], tclune.
I didn't mischaracterize the work, I quoted the article that Josephine linked to. If that is a mischaracterization, it is the author of the article's mischaracterization.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Wow. Way to totally mischaracterize an entire body of work [PDF], tclune.
I didn't mischaracterize the work, I quoted the article that Josephine linked to. If that is a mischaracterization, it is the author of the article's mischaracterization.
--Tom Clune
You mean the article that explicitly states:
quote:
The researchers defined rape as completed forced penetration, forced penetration facilitated by drugs or alcohol, or attempted forced penetration.
You find that statement ambiguous, or unclear, or so broad it includes "every person, male or female, on the planet"?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
You mean the article that explicitly states:
quote:
The researchers defined rape as completed forced penetration, forced penetration facilitated by drugs or alcohol, or attempted forced penetration.
You find that statement ambiguous, or unclear, or so broad it includes "every person, male or female, on the planet"?
Croesos, once again you distort what was written. I will respond to this point and then leave this thread to the amen chorus. What was claimed by Josephine was that sexual ASSAULT was widespread. The article noted that the survey included a wide variety of human interactions (undoubtedly all unpleasant to one of the parties, I am not taking issue with that) as examples of sexual assault. They did not claim that all these were examples of rape; the author did not claim that they claimed that; Josephine did not claim that; I did not claim that she claimed that. I'm not sure why you have jumped to that to support that I have distorted something that was written, but the irony of it is not lost on me.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
What was claimed by Josephine was that sexual ASSAULT was widespread.
Yes. And then I clarified -- the article did not say that one in five women has been a victim of sexual assault. It said the study investigated many forms of sexual assault, and found that one in five women has been a victim of rape or attempted rape.
quote:
I'm not sure why you have jumped to that to support that I have distorted something that was written
Because it rather looks like you have. I don't think you've done so intentionally. But you do seem to be misunderstanding what was said.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Croesos, once again you distort what was written. I will respond to this point and then leave this thread to the amen chorus. What was claimed by Josephine was that sexual ASSAULT was widespread. The article noted that the survey included a wide variety of human interactions (undoubtedly all unpleasant to one of the parties, I am not taking issue with that) as examples of sexual assault. They did not claim that all these were examples of rape; the author did not claim that they claimed that; Josephine did not claim that; I did not claim that she claimed that. I'm not sure why you have jumped to that to support that I have distorted something that was written, but the irony of it is not lost on me.
--Tom Clune
Josephine asserted that approximately one in five women had been the victim of a sexual assault and linked to an article associating that number with rape and attempted rape.
You then claimed that since the survey also asked about other subjects, those numbers must be included in rape figures ("your link doesn't support that") and expressed pleased surprise that the figure was as low as 20%.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Our culture coddles black criminals? Blames white victims of black crime? Doesn't take people seriously who report that they were mugged by a black man? What holler are you living in?
That's got nothing to do with this. If the way society treats rape victims is wrong then that is what needs to change, not the way it treats all men. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Differences between two cases in an analogy have everything to do with disproving that the analogy is apt.
Goperryrevs, I'll try to hit some of your other points. If I miss something you especially want me to cover, let me know.
The woman with rejection issues issue has been addressed by Moo. Nor do I see what "there's no magic solution to fix every situation" has to do with the argument at all. That's a "duh" but really doesn't advance the argument in either direction. Nobody has proposed any magic, one-size-fits-all solutions. I've partly addressed the race question vis-a-vis privilege and power. I'll address this (recall this is in contrast/comparison to a white guy who is fearful of every black man he meets) :
quote:
If she acts with the same suspicion and precaution regarding every man she meets, I think that she is being sexist.
There is a disanalogy here. Black guys in suits in a business boardroom are very very unlikely to be murderous thugs. There are clues you can use to determine this. There are no clues a woman can use to determine if a man is a rapist or potential rapist because there is no rapist M.O. As one article put it, for a woman, every man is Schrödinger's rapist. She won't know he's a rapist until he rapes her. There are no reliable clues, the way a law degree is a pretty darned reliable clue that a black man isn't a mugger. The cases are therefore dissimilar and the analogy fails.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
So when I'm talking about sexual harassment, I'm assuming we're talking about sexual approaches which are either assumed for no good (sane, sensible) reason to be welcome or where the perpetrator is completely indifferent as to whether or not the approach will be welcome. And I still say that that is always about rape.
So consider a young lady beginning a new job. Every day, when she arrives for work, she is greeted by a group of older male employees with a series of calls along the lines of "Nice tits, darlin'", "Wouldn't you like to get your hands on those" and so on.
It is clear to me that this is sexual harassment. It is clear to me that this is about objectifying the woman in question, and treating her as a sexual object rather than a person. It is clear to me that nobody should have to endure that kind of thing in order to go to work.
These aren't sexual approaches. The men aren't actually expecting or soliciting sex with the new employee, any more than when they read Loaded magazine or whatever, they actually expect Kelly Brook to turn up at their house wearing a fur coat and nothing more.
And this is why I think your bottom line "I would if I could" is wrong. Because most of these men wouldn't, even if they thought they would get away with it. This kind of sexual harassment is not "about rape" in any useful sense, but it is certainly part of the wider "rape culture".
As we all know, most rapes are by people who know their victims. The guy who lurks in bushes with a knife knows that he is a rapist. Most rapists don't - not really. He convinces himself that the woman owes him sex because he bought her dinner, or because she invited him in to her apartment, or her bed, or because she would have fought harder if she really meant it, or that all girls and women are secretly gagging for it because he is a star of such and such a sporting team, or a singer or whatever.
The men in this category would happily agree that rapists were scum (meaning the lurkers-in-bushes) whilst telling you that if a woman goes home with you, it means she has committed herself to having sex, and isn't allowed to back out.
I really don't think we're far apart in opinion, but I don't think your language is helpful.
We agree, I think, that the Loaded-reading, sexual objectification culture feeds the mentality of date rapists, and that an environment where men think that discussing the shape and size of their co-workers' breasts is normal, acceptable behaviour is more likely to lead to those men also thinking that a woman owes him because he bought her dinner. If that means that you want to call every catcall a "proto-rape", you might even be correct in a technical sense, but it's just not helpful language.
We also have, in some circles, a culture of casual violence - a man who feels slighted thinks nothing of punching the person who has offended him in order to settle the perceived slight. Calling such a man a "proto-murderer" isn't really helpful either - either to the clarity of a discussion, or to the cause of persuading him not to lash out in anger.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm not so sure that those kind of remarks, repeated every day to a co-worker who can't avoid you, shouldn't be classed as a real attempt toward coerced sex. The men are watching here closely for signs of weakness--can she "handle" their verbal sexual aggression? If not, most of them will never follow up with anything worse, jusr writing her off as a bit of a wet blanket--but there's usually one, isn't there? And even he will most likely escalate things a bit at a time, before outright rape.
The trouble with so-called pretend aggression is that it can so easily turn into the real thing.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Oh, and the message is more often "I could if I would," i.e. "Fear me, because I coukd change my mind and take you at any time." I' m speaking of sexual harassers here, not men in general.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... consider a young lady beginning a new job. Every day, when she arrives for work, she is greeted by a group of older male employees with a series of calls along the lines of "Nice tits, darlin'", "Wouldn't you like to get your hands on those" and so on.
It is clear to me that this is sexual harassment. It is clear to me that this is about objectifying the woman in question, and treating her as a sexual object rather than a person. It is clear to me that nobody should have to endure that kind of thing in order to go to work.
These aren't sexual approaches. The men aren't actually expecting or soliciting sex with the new employee ... And this is why I think your bottom line "I would if I could" is wrong. Because most of these men wouldn't, even if they thought they would get away with it. This kind of sexual harassment is not "about rape" in any useful sense, but it is certainly part of the wider "rape culture".
I think you're splitting hairs here. Whether they would actually do anything is a moot point - the message is "I'm appraising you sexually and if you can't be grateful you can at least be passive." They think they're entitled to do this - and any woamn who makes her objection clear is seen as a humourless bitch, ball-breaker, whatever. quote:
We also have, in some circles, a culture of casual violence - a man who feels slighted thinks nothing of punching the person who has offended him in order to settle the perceived slight. Calling such a man a "proto-murderer" isn't really helpful either - either to the clarity of a discussion, or to the cause of persuading him not to lash out in anger.
There's a huge difference between a man lashing out at a peer who might equally strike back, and a man lashing out at someone who can't, won't or usually doesn't strike back - whether that's a woman, or a person who is for some other reason expected to be weak and passive. Actually men who regularly slap their women around quite often end up killing them and I'm not really interested in whether you think pointing this out is or isn't helpful.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Goperryrevs, I'll try to hit some of your other points. If I miss something you especially want me to cover, let me know.
The woman with rejection issues issue has been addressed by Moo. Nor do I see what "there's no magic solution to fix every situation" has to do with the argument at all. That's a "duh" but really doesn't advance the argument in either direction. Nobody has proposed any magic, one-size-fits-all solutions. I've partly addressed the race question vis-a-vis privilege and power. I'll address this (recall this is in contrast/comparison to a white guy who is fearful of every black man he meets) :
quote:
If she acts with the same suspicion and precaution regarding every man she meets, I think that she is being sexist.
There is a disanalogy here. Black guys in suits in a business boardroom are very very unlikely to be murderous thugs. There are clues you can use to determine this. There are no clues a woman can use to determine if a man is a rapist or potential rapist because there is no rapist M.O. As one article put it, for a woman, every man is Schrödinger's rapist. She won't know he's a rapist until he rapes her. There are no reliable clues, the way a law degree is a pretty darned reliable clue that a black man isn't a mugger. The cases are therefore dissimilar and the analogy fails.
Thanks mousethief, that was a really helpful post.
I guess I'm trying to figure out whether there's anything distinctive about rape or sexual assault compared to other issues.
The thing is, any person you meet or know at any time could do something vile and horrible at any time. Rape is just one of those things. There's a probability scale of likelihood for all those things, but I take the point that rapists are often unexpected and unrecognisable.
The black lawyers / muggers analogy was more to make the point that there is a continuum of probability, with extremes at both ends. I guess my main issue with the any man could be a rapist is that it implies that for every man that a woman meets, in every situation, the likelihood of them being a rapist is exactly the same. That's what I take issue with, and why I was pushing the reasonable fear / precaution point. I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that a woman walking home late at night would be more fearful of a man that she sees walking towards her than she would seeing a man walking towards her in a hospital or a school. The likelihood of being attacked, or at least the fear and the perception is very different in different situations.
I do totally understand that someone who has been in a sexist environment, or heaven forbid, worse, been raped, will find it much harder to trust men in general. So what would be paranoid for one person is understandable for another.
But my general point is that suspicion of a man is much more justified, and indeed commendable and sensible at some times and in some situations than in others. So we should encourage women to think about those situations - one example I already mentioned is having your drink spiked - and what they could do to protect themselves. I'm not saying that at other times they should completely let their guard down - just that there is a scale. A scale of danger that they're in at any particular time, and a scale of danger that any particular man might be. Now, of course, it can be hard to ascertain that, but it's not impossible. Trust builds between people who know each other, and that danger is reduced. Certain locations and times of the day are more dangerous than others.
I'm not sure that's too controversial, and if you or Josephine thought I was saying much more than that, apologies - I'm still formulating what I think about this (I was and am much more confident of what I thought when we were discussing the OP and the specific event that this thread was about).
On the woman with rejection issues, I'm not sure Moo's answer totally deals with that. Her point is that no-one notices who gets on or off a lift. Which if that was true for 100% of all people, then there'd be no need for men to not ride alone in a lift with a woman because the woman wouldn't have noticed and therefore felt in danger anyhow... I think the point is more that most people don't give a crap. But, as you say, a few women might feel threatened being alone in a lift with a man. But if that's the case, then surely there is still likelihood that a woman with rejection issues might notice a man leaving for no apparent reason and feel rejected?
If your point is that there is a net benefit, then fine. If for every 10 women that feel less threatened, only 1 feels rejected, then I can see the argument. But I don't think that it's as simple as all women would be happier with that arrangement. People are different, and people appreciate different things.
On that point, there was one other question I asked:
quote:
Should I avoid getting in a lift alone with a man too? It's very possible that that man is also the victim of rape or sexual abuse. The statistics are lower, but there are still plenty of men who have been through that, and for all I know, the man next to me in the lift is one of them.
If not, why not?
In asking that I was again trying to push the point that this isn't about hard and fast rules that work for everyone, but about the likelihood of a situation being unhelpful for someone. Sorry if my "magic solution" comment was crass - I'm just concerned that for every "this is what will make women feel happier / safer / more empowered" suggestion, there is very possibly going to be a number of women who say "well, not me!", with good reasons why not.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think in part we're talking at cross purposes, partly. But you're mistaking probability based on knowledge of certain facts with probability that has no facts to work on. In any given situation, a woman cannot distinguish between men, which are the rapists and which are not. Of course the vast majority of men are not rapists. But for any given man, it is not possible for a woman to know which category he falls into. So from that perspective, from the perspective of the person with no further information about the man except that he's in the same elevator in the building after everybody else has gone home, the probability of this one or that one being a rapist is exactly the same.
In statistics and probability there is the concept of probability "given that." Consider a population of diggleblodgits (which are very difficult to distinguish by sex) which is 50% male and 50% female, and the males have a 55% chance of having gene X43, and the females have a 45% chance of having gene X43.
If you grab a diggleblodgit at random, and don't know the sex, then it has a 50% chance if having gene X43. If however you know it's male, then it has a 55% chance.
Knowing the history of a man can help you determine the likelihood of his being a rapist. (Particularly if he has raped before, or is violent towards women and so on.) But without that knowledge, the probability you would assign to any given man is the same.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Trust builds between people who know each other, and that danger is reduced.
You still seem to be stuck on the fallacy that all rapists are strangers to their victims. From a statistically objective perspective, personal acquaintance increases the likelihood of rape occurring.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think in part we're talking at cross purposes, partly.
Could well be:)
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But for any given man, it is not possible for a woman to know which category he falls into. So from that perspective, from the perspective of the person with no further information about the man except that he's in the same elevator in the building after everybody else has gone home, the probability of this one or that one being a rapist is exactly the same.
That makes sense.
But I was also talking about situations and times as well as people. In one sense, from the point of view of a woman, for many situations, it matters not one jot if a man is a rapist or not, if there is no opportunity at that time, in that situation, for that man to rape her. The "in the same building, after everyone else has gone home" seems key in your example.
Specifically, when it comes to elevators, I have no idea how many rapes occur in them. I thought nowadays most elevators have cameras in them, which I'd expect would reduce the likelihood of a woman getting raped in a lift. But I might be wrong about that.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
You still seem to be stuck on the fallacy that all rapists are strangers to their victims. From a statistically objective perspective, personal acquaintance increases the likelihood of rape occurring.
I'm honestly not. I'm very aware of that. But in part, we've been talking about elevators, where it is a stranger that would be with you. And in the other part, I'd suggest that the measures a woman can take are very different when it comes to rape from a stranger and rape from someone they know. The likelihood of date rape in particular can be reduced. Unexpected family members or friends who are predators is much more difficult to anticipate. I don't know what the solution is for that. I don't think the solution is to avoid all contact with male family members. Maybe the best short term solution is about creating a culture where victims feel that they can talk about these things without being disbelieved or ignored. Prevention is much more difficult, as MT has pointed out.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
And in the other part, I'd suggest that the measures a woman can take are very different when it comes to rape from a stranger and rape from someone they know. The likelihood of date rape in particular can be reduced.
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Maybe the best short term solution is about creating a culture where victims feel that they can talk about these things without being disbelieved or ignored.
Or blamed.
Because even women who are victims of horrific abuse are told that it's their fault.
Perhaps a good starting place would be to stop compiling lists of ways women should be responsible for rape prevention. I've often thought that the primary accomplishment of such lists was to codify a list of victims a sexual predator can feel comfortable targeting. Been out late alone? Had a drink? Wearing a short skirt? The obviously you had it coming, because these are well known rules you've blatantly violated.
I remember reading a woman's description of her own assault a few years ago. (Can't find the link.) She observed that she had frequently broken these "rape rules" by having drinks at bars, talking to strangers, being out late at night alone, wearing sexy clothes, etc. and had never once been assaulted or raped while doing so. Instead she was attacked at home by someone she knew, wearing baggy sweatclothes, and stone cold sober. The biggest factor wasn't her own behavior. It was the presence of a rapist.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I think you're splitting hairs here. Whether they would actually do anything is a moot point - the message is "I'm appraising you sexually and if you can't be grateful you can at least be passive." They think they're entitled to do this - and any woman who makes her objection clear is seen as a humourless bitch, ball-breaker, whatever.
Yes, as I have said, I agree that that is the message. I don't think I'm splitting hairs when I say that that is different from rape.
quote:
There's a huge difference between a man lashing out at a peer who might equally strike back, and a man lashing out at someone who can't, won't or usually doesn't strike back - whether that's a woman, or a person who is for some other reason expected to be weak and passive.
I agree that there is a significant difference here. You seem to want to put a vast chasm between a man lashing out at another man and a man lashing out at a woman, but very little difference between a man lashing out at a woman, a man who systematically brutalizes a woman, and a murderer.
I think that's an error.
quote:
Actually men who regularly slap their women around quite often end up killing them and I'm not really interested in whether you think pointing this out is or isn't helpful.
Where did that come from? There is a significant difference between an assault and regular domestic violence. I don't disagree that it's not uncommon for domestic violence to end in murder, but that wasn't what we were talking about.
Let's try a slightly different parallel. The catcallers and their ilk are like a schoolyard bully. The dynamic is not dissimilar - they're worse in groups, egg each other on, and enjoy cornering the geeky kid by the lockers and giving him a wedgie. They continuously and mercilessly abuse their chosen victim, and make his life extremely unpleasant. Sometimes, the victim kills him or herself.
But school bullies almost never murder their victims. They often use the language of murder - talking about how they're going to kill him or whatever, but what they actually do is humiliate him a bit more. They have him in their power, punch and kick him and could, quite easily, kill him, but they don't.
These are horrible actions, and sometimes lead to the suicide of the victim, but describing them as "murder" isn't a helpful use of language.
Do you understand the distinction I'm making here?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Perhaps a good starting place would be to stop compiling lists of ways women should be responsible for rape prevention. I've often thought that the primary accomplishment of such lists was to codify a list of victims a sexual predator can feel comfortable targeting. Been out late alone? Had a drink? Wearing a short skirt? The obviously you had it coming, because these are well known rules you've blatantly violated.
I think that's not helpful at all. Sensible suggestions of precautions that can help people are not the same as lists that make people responsible. We suggest things that people can say and do to handle bullies. We suggest that it's not a good idea to walk through certain neighbourhoods alone. As Mousethief said, "it's about not getting raped". The reality is that some things put you in more danger. It's helpful to be aware of that.
Now, not following those guidelines should never result in blame for the victim, any more than we blame a victim for getting bullied because they were too scared to tell the teacher.
But your attitude seems to like saying "well, I'm not going to tell the teacher, because I should have the freedom not to tell the teacher and I want to exercise that."
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Maybe the best short term solution is about creating a culture where victims feel that they can talk about these things without being disbelieved or ignored.
Or blamed.
Because even women who are victims of horrific abuse are told that it's their fault.
And working towards a culture where women are allowed to set their own boundaries without being told that she's wrong for doing so, and that, you know, the behavior she's objecting to is really a compliment, and she should just get over herself and enjoy it.
Quite.
And if I may bring this back to the original topic of this thread, I think I see where you're coming from with not wanting to blame Adria, because it's important not to blame victims.
As I've tried to say earlier in the thread, I think that specific case is different to that, and I could see how a similar dynamic could occur in a rape case.
If a woman physically assaulted someone, and a rapist observed that, and as a result targeted the woman and raped her, it would not be blaming the woman for getting raped to say that she shouldn't have assaulted other person in the first place. It even wouldn't be blaming her to say that the fact that she assaulted someone was in part what led to her getting raped. There are two separate crimes, with different perpetrators and victims. So say that she was a perpetrator in one crime would not be to diminish her victimhood in the other, or to somehow turn her into a perpetrator in the other.
I think it's wrong to say Adria got what was coming to her, because with regards to the abuse and threats she got, they were totally unacceptable. With regards to the threats on the Internet, she was 100% totally blameless. But with regards to her behaviour towards the men at the convention, she wasn't.
I think, looking back, my problem with what you were saying at the start of the thread, was that you were talking as if there were two parties - Adria, and men / the tech culture. So, from your point of view, the two men were both perpetrators before they were victims. I think it's that analysis that was wrong. To me, it's a case of escalating wrong behaviours where the retaliation is worse than the previous act. Someone spits some chewing gum on the floor. Someone else takes exception and pushes them. Someone else takes exception to that and punches them. Someone else takes exception to that and stabs them, and so on. Each act is worse than the previous one, and each person (expect the last) is a victim in one act and a perpetrator in another.
Hope that helps.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
These are horrible actions, and sometimes lead to the suicide of the victim, but describing them as "murder" isn't a helpful use of language.
Do you understand the distinction I'm making here?
Apparently you don't understand the distinction between saying something is about rape and saying it is rape. Or you do understand it and are deliberately blurring that boundary to make your point.
I am saying your 'slap is/not murder analogy does not work, because a slap may or may not be part of a continuum that leasds to murder - it depends on the context. Ditto bullying.
On the other hand, threats that put another "in fear", whether or not accompanied by anything physical, are about murder, irrespective of whether the person doing the threatening actually intends to follow through. Similarly, sexual harassment is about rape, whether or not that is what the individual perpetrator has in mind. It's true that some people who make threats are so sad and pathetic that no one usually feels seriously threatened, so many women who are subject to sexual harassment may feel nothing other than mild irritation or contempt.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Perhaps a good starting place would be to stop compiling lists of ways women should be responsible for rape prevention.
I think that's not helpful at all. Sensible suggestions of precautions that can help people are not the same as lists that make people responsible.
I disagree. The list of precautions is always the same as the list of blame. I'm sure you're going to argue that's simply a bizarre coincidence.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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