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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
As far as I'm concerned, all Christians are in communion with each other as we share in the love of Christ. We are collectively the body of Christ, whether some who lead particular denominations accept it or not.

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Yes. This. Amen.



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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
And, quite naturally, I would argue that it's right to insist that one must confess the Orthodox faith and have been received into the Orthodox Church to receive holy communion in the Orthodox Church.

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Of course I do not know God's will, but I think I know God "wills" Christian unity.

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

Communion only possible if the Anglicans don't ordain women bishops? Why didn't they stop talking when the Anglicans started ordaining women priests ?

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Can't we all be a bit more respectful of each other and the respective traditions?

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What do shipmates see as "requirements" for starting to approach other denominations?

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And where is the Holy Spirit when one needs Him???

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Well, it's called a fait accompli irl.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm nowhere near as sure of that as I used to be. A united Church would have colossal potential for hubris and arrogance - just look at those Churches that think they're the One True Church now. I've a hunch we're meant to be divided. I've a hunch the Tower of Babel wasn't a one-off.

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This thought has never occurred to me before. I like!

Even in the highly unlikely event that the RCC, Orthodox and Anglicans all united, weirdos like me (Anglican, evangelical, charismatic, non-sacramental although far from hostile to sacramentals, preferring believers' baptism to infant baptism, etc.) would always be 'outside' and viewed with suspicion ...

The Church will endure. Until Christ returns.

I am pretty positive that all who have professed themselves Christians will have things to confess/repent of, on that Day.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Of course I do not know God's will, but I think I know God "wills" Christian unity.

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I'm nowhere near as sure of that as I used to be. A united Church would have colossal potential for hubris and arrogance - just look at those Churches that think they're the One True Church now. I've a hunch we're meant to be divided. I've a hunch the Tower of Babel wasn't a one-off.

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You mean, God knew what he was doing when he allowed diversity to flourish?

Of course, Anglicans have been consecrating women bishops for many years now. Not in every part of the Communion. But female Anglican bishops exist. I've even seen photographs and youtube videos of them and everything.

Or are we back to that old pain-in-the-arse notion that the only Anglicans that count are a) CofE and b) the kind who really want to be governed by the Pope and his Curia?

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Are we back to that old pain-in-the-arse notion that the only Anglicans that count are a) CofE and b) the kind who really want to be governed by the Pope and his Curia?

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
How does one reverse lost Apostolic succession (assuming, of course, that it's there in the first place)?

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Why do they (Anglicans) claim to be the voice of the Church who can unilaterally make such decisions?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Are we back to that old pain-in-the-arse notion that the only Anglicans that count are a) CofE and b) the kind who really want to be governed by the Pope and his Curia?

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Maybe the CofE isn't the only part that counts, but as a non-Anglican I've noticed that the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the 'the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican Communion', according to Wiki, is always a British person. Noone non-British is ever seriously in line for the job, even though it's a worldwide denomination. John Sentamu's name comes up, but he's has been in the UK since 1974, which suggests that it's desirable to be settled in the UK and 'acculturated', at the very least.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've a hunch the Tower of Babel wasn't a one-off.

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Of course, unification (which we should all desire, although sometimes I wonder)...

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've a hunch the Tower of Babel wasn't a one-off.

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FWIW, the Orthodox Church believes that the Tower of Babel was reversed at Pentecost, just as the expulsion from Eden was reversed at the Resurrection.

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Originally posted by Lothiriel:
Wiki hasn't got it quite right. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the C of E, and is considered "first among equals" among the other Anglican primates. Maybe that's what they mean by "symbolic" --- the ABC has no real jurisdiction outside of the UK.

Each province of the Anglican communion--C of E, Anglican Church of Canada, the Episcopalian Church in the United States, etc--is self-governing. A member of the Anglican Church of Canada, for example, would no more be made Archbishop of Canterbury than a Canadian would be made prime minister of the UK (leaving aside any complicating matters such as dual citizenship).

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Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
That's news to me. I didn't know the Anglicans had started ordaining women priests. I assumed they had merely created a female sub-class to perform priestly functions.

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

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Originally posted by Lothiriel:
Wiki hasn't got it quite right. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the C of E, and is considered "first among equals" among the other Anglican primates. Maybe that's what they mean by "symbolic" --- the ABC has no real jurisdiction outside of the UK.

Each province of the Anglican communion--C of E, Anglican Church of Canada, the Episcopalian Church in the United States, etc--is self-governing. A member of the Anglican Church of Canada, for example, would no more be made Archbishop of Canterbury than a Canadian would be made prime minister of the UK (leaving aside any complicating matters such as dual citizenship).

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The ABC has no real jurisdiction outside of England and certain anomalous areas such as the Isle of Man and the Diocese in Europe. He certainly has no jurisdiction over the Scottish Episcopal Church (as has been the case since pre-reformation times), nor does he have authority over the Church in Wales. That didn't prevent the Archbishop of Wales being appointed Archbishop of Canterbury a few years ago. It's perfectly possible for clergy to move between provinces, and indeed plenty of past Primuses (Primi?) of the SEC have been English or indeed Welsh.

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I keep clear of the dead horses board so can I ask while we are still here what is meant by the Tower of Babel being reversed ? Do you mean permanently or just on the day of Pentecost when they all understood miraculously what was being said ?

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've a hunch the Tower of Babel wasn't a one-off.

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FWIW, the Orthodox Church believes that the Tower of Babel was reversed at Pentecost, just as the expulsion from Eden was reversed at the Resurrection.

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
At Michael Ramsey's retirement, one of the names on the medium-list for a replacement was the late Ted Scott, then Canadian Primate. For reasons not related to his likely lack of suitability for the job, he was ruled out. As with the job of PM of the UK, there is no citizenship or ethnic requirement for appointment to Canterbury. With the current consultation model, it is less likely to happen than in more unenlightened days. Lanfranc was, I think, the last one born outside England or Wales, but I am open to correction.

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Originally posted by Lothiriel:

But am I correct in thinking that to become ABC, Scott would have had to become a member of the Church of England, rather than remain in the Anglican Church of Canada?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Maybe the CofE isn't the only part that counts, but as a non-Anglican I've noticed that the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the 'the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican Communion', according to Wiki, is always a British person. No one non-British is ever seriously in line for the job, even though it's a worldwide denomination. John Sentamu's name comes up, but he's has been in the UK since 1974, which suggests that it's desirable to be settled in the UK and 'acculturated', at the very least.

This state of affairs could well lead the Orthodox Church to jump to conclusions!

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Originally posted by Angloid:


Re ABCs from outside England, wasn't Cosmo Lang Scottish? Though he might have been born in England I suppose.

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Originally posted by hatless:
Pentecost is hardly a reversal of Babel, because people hear many languages, not one. It is about diversity. Communication in diversity rather than confusion in diversity, but diversity nonetheless.

I think Pentecost is a bit of a half-way house in any case. Go to the end of Revelation and the heavenly city has no temple. No unified church all singing from the same song sheet, no unanimous doctrine, no universal liturgy. It's not the triumph of the church or any version of it, it's the triumph of the lamb, and it's God and a healed humanity.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Rev 7: 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by Lothiriel:

But am I correct in thinking that to become ABC, Scott would have had to become a member of the Church of England, rather than remain in the Anglican Church of Canada?

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I don't think there is any qualification for 'membership' in the C of E other than baptism. There is or was the 'colonial clergy act' (or something like that) but it doesn't debar priests from outside the UK from holding office so I don't see why it should do so to bishops.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
If he reversed it once, he can reverse it again.

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It's a prayer of Jesus, Zach, and a promise of the coming kingdom, too. Of course we should work for it, however naive and over-optimistic that might seem. Disunity in the church is not a good thing. Less enmity, more friendships while living with disagreements; these would be good things, don't you think?

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Originally posted by Lothiriel:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Are we back to that old pain-in-the-arse notion that the only Anglicans that count are a) CofE and b) the kind who really want to be governed by the Pope and his Curia?

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Maybe the CofE isn't the only part that counts, but as a non-Anglican I've noticed that the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the 'the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican Communion', according to Wiki, is always a British person. Noone non-British is ever seriously in line for the job, even though it's a worldwide denomination. John Sentamu's name comes up, but he's has been in the UK since 1974, which suggests that it's desirable to be settled in the UK and 'acculturated', at the very least.

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Wiki hasn't got it quite right. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the C of E, and is considered "first among equals" among the other Anglican primates. Maybe that's what they mean by "symbolic" --- the ABC has no real jurisdiction outside of the UK.

Each province of the Anglican communion--C of E, Anglican Church of Canada, the Episcopalian Church in the United States, etc--is self-governing. A member of the Anglican Church of Canada, for example, would no more be made Archbishop of Canterbury than a Canadian would be made prime minister of the UK (leaving aside any complicating matters such as dual citizenship).

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I desire unity among Christians but not, I think, unification. As per Adeodatus' comment a few posts ago, maybe the unification of having one worldwide organisation is not God's intention or plan for his followers.

I think there's a danger (in all things, not just this point) of doing things on the world's terms, and not seriously questioning whether there's another way.

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John 17:20-23
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

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