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Source: (consider it) Thread: defense of traditional marriage
Anyuta
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# 14692

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Won't that mean that a couple walking along the street consider themselves as "married", the people that pass them by see them as "married", but as soon as they walk into a church they have to consider themselves "unmarried"?

There is therefore a problem trying to separate religious marriage from secular marriage - unless we all become atheists (or Quakers, or Unitarians - but steer clear of any religion which is on the government Thought Police's black list.)

But this is already the case. And for that matter, it won't be the case for couples who have had both.

I for example was not in a state of "holy matrimony" for a number of years when I was married. the reasons are multiple, but it was a choice I made.

Nothing would change, really. Many (I thought all, but I guess not so) Christian groups don't recognize marriage unless it is performed as a christian ceremony. Some recognise marriages if they were entered into before one or both of the spouses "converted". many won't even recognise the marriages performed in other denominations of christianity, let alone non-christian marriages. when my sister married a jew in a jewish ceremony, the Orthodox church did not consider her to be married. She was not able to commune for a while. Eventually, somehow, it was resolved, basically by a confession, when she wanted to have her first child baptized. I'm not sure what the logic was...

as for divorce, I heard a quote once: never marry someone you wouldn't want to be divorced to. The intent of the quote is to point out that once you get married, assuming you have children, you are bound together for life. how you deal with a divorced other parent of your children will play a HUGE role in how the divorce impacts them.

I figure it's bad for kids who have parents who can't get along, and who fight over every little thing, or even who give the silent treatment to each other.. and that it matters less whether those parents are married or divorced. it's how they act that maters, not their legal status, or whether they live together.

Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged
TomOfTarsus
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Yow. Too much thread to read, so sorry if I cover old ground (and then look at my wall of text... [Hot and Hormonal] ).

My folks separated when I'd just turned 16. It had devastating effects on everyone except my Dad, who has lived the rest of his life in relative ease and comfort. My mother, never really that stable to start with (having been raised by an abusive alcoholic and an over-controlling mother) never recovered either psychologically or economically. My sister, who would turn 13 a month after Dad took off, was spotted as vulnerable by a wicked school counselor who forcibly raped her repeatedly. I came out second-most unscathed as I was off to college in a couple of years (on my own steam - my father refused any sort of support for school and my mother was impoverished).

In most churches, when people get married, they vow before God a lifetime commitment. But as usual, being young, etc, they don't always have the tools; they are tempestuous, aggressive, and the legendary first couple of years as the reality of life with another sinner sinks in leads to a lot of struggle... and most marriages have a crisis a few years in that really tests the commitment of both parties - those that make it through often find a deeper and more peaceful relationship on the other side. My dad had an affair while my mother was carrying my sister, for instance, but I'm not sure that damage was ever undone. "Forgiveness" with occasional reminders, that sort of thing, and my dad's continuing philandering...

I've also watched the effects of easy divorce on my granddaughter, as her mother refused to try to save the marriage and could not be forced to. She was not held accountable for her care of my granddaughter even after it was revealed that the 7 year old had been molested over several years by a 13 year old son of her grandfather's new wife.

But my take on it is that yes, divorce should be much harder to obtain. Vows were made; those aren't empty words. Children could end up impoverished and on public support, or just impoverished, and in general it seems to me that overall are made more vulnerable. My mother was forced into the workplace; we were on our own in more ways that just physically. One reason my sister gave for never telling her was (1) her rapist's threats and (2) the effect it would have on our already frail mother; we realized years later how we'd moved into a "parenting" mode with her following the breakup. Same with my granddaughter, with mom off to work she had to put her somewhere; against her own word she allowed her to stay where she ended up being molested.

I'm no shining star of sinlessness - but it just seems to me to be the nature of the case that most of the time, and especially so when children are involved, that the woman and the children end up on the short end of the stick. And we marry young, and often we need outside support, both to give us coping skills, learn how to handle conflict, and sometimes to say "Not so fast here! You gave your word!" I'm not saying divorce should be impossible, sometimes it is necessary - but the church should step up to help troubled families, and the law should require some accountability besides "we just can't get along." IMHO, YMMV.

--------------------
By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
when my sister married a jew in a jewish ceremony, the Orthodox church did not consider her to be married. She was not able to commune for a while. Eventually, somehow, it was resolved, basically by a confession, when she wanted to have her first child baptized. I'm not sure what the logic was...

I'm guessing the logic went something along the lines of "either we can have a new congregant, or the synagogue next door will".

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anyuta
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
when my sister married a jew in a jewish ceremony, the Orthodox church did not consider her to be married. She was not able to commune for a while. Eventually, somehow, it was resolved, basically by a confession, when she wanted to have her first child baptized. I'm not sure what the logic was...

I'm guessing the logic went something along the lines of "either we can have a new congregant, or the synagogue next door will".
weeeeelll.... yeah. except that this was her "home" church (one she herself was baptized in, whereas she lives on the opposite coast. but the principle still stands... in that "one more of US" vs one more of "them".

Just as an OT aside... this was one of the fun-est weddings I've ever attended. not just the Jewish aspect of it (although that was my first), but rather the combination of the two cultures celebrating! Russians dancing the Horah, Jews dancing Russian folk dances.. both sides getting fairly drunk.. it was a blast! although at first the two groups were eyeing each other somewhat suspiciously across the patio (outside wedding and reception), it didn't take long before the ice broke and everyone just treated everyone else like family. awsome. reminds me just a bit of that one scene in "Fiddler on the Roof", only more fun.

Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged
TomOfTarsus
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quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:


as for divorce, I heard a quote once: never marry someone you wouldn't want to be divorced to. The intent of the quote is to point out that once you get married, assuming you have children, you are bound together for life. how you deal with a divorced other parent of your children will play a HUGE role in how the divorce impacts them.

I figure it's bad for kids who have parents who can't get along, and who fight over every little thing, or even who give the silent treatment to each other.. and that it matters less whether those parents are married or divorced. it's how they act that maters, not their legal status, or whether they live together.

Great wisdom, and very true, but hardly the romantic view! When you're young and starry-eyed...

--------------------
By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
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# 238

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An interesting take on traditional marriage from blogger John Holbo:

quote:
Defenders of ‘traditional marriage’ insist 1) that their position is, well … traditional; wisdom of the Judeo-Christian tradition, the history of Western Civilization, etc. etc.; 2) they are not bigots. They are tolerant of homosexuality, and the rights of homosexuals, etc. etc. Maybe they watch the occasional episode of “Will and Grace”, in syndication (even if they didn’t watch it back when it started.) They are careful to distance themselves from those Westboro Baptist Church lunatics, for example.

It’s gotten to the point where one of the main, mainstream arguments against same-sex marriage is that legalizing it would amount to implying that those opposing it are bigots. Since they are not just bigots (see above), anything that would make them seem like bigots must be wrong. Ergo, approving same-sex marriage would be a mistake. Certainly striking down opposition to it as ‘lacking a rational basis’ would be a gross moral insult to non-bigoted opponents of same-same marriage.

This ‘anything that implies we are bigots must be wrong’ argument has problems. But that’s old news. Here’s the new argument. Grant, for argument’s sake, that contemporary arguments against same-sex marriage have been scrubbed free of bigotry. Doesn’t it follow that these arguments must not be traditional but, somehow, quite new?

All the old arguments were steeped in bigotry, after all. We can hardly maintain that anti-homosexual attitudes 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, were always already scrubbed free of bigotry to the high standards of “Will and Grace”. It’s hard to see how any argument against same-sex marriage that is genuinely traditional will not be a bigoted one, since it’s hard to believe it could be utterly disconnected from our traditions.

The same argument also applies to insisting on "traditional" gender roles in marriage. If you get rid of the sexism and homophobia, the view isn't that "traditional" anymore.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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