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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UK Christianity's greatest success story
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
How about looking ten or twenty years ahead, and planning now for a radically slimmed-down Christianity - with maybe just the cathedrals and a few larger churches keeping the choral tradition alive, and the rest opened up to community groups and other faiths. Because that's what will happen anyway, so we might as well start thinking about it now.
At least, that's how I see things going.
Exactly! I think you are being a little optimistic about the time scale though, and I'm afraid that I doubt if it will happen until I'm long gone.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nice post - I agree! *
*Oh dear! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Unfortunately SusanDoris, where we would differ is that I am talking about how things are now, but that doesn't mean the Church is in terminal decline in the west.
I would guess that you believe the opposite.
There is such a thing as Revival you know. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nice post - I agree! *
*Oh dear!
Unfortunately SusanDoris, where we would differ is that I am talking about how things are now, but that doesn't mean the Church is in terminal decline in the west.
I would guess that you believe the opposite.
Not really; Much as I'd like it to happen in my lifetime, I'm a realist and know it will take a long time for religious beliefs to become a minority.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
...Much as I'd like it to happen in my lifetime, I'm a realist and know it will take a long time for religious beliefs to become a minority.
But really, what difference does it make? In your world view, people live then they die - the end. Why should it matter to you whether other people believe in God or not?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Out this afternoon, but will respond later.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Out this afternoon, but will respond later.
OK, I'm going out in a bit too. But when you get the chance, think on this - wouldn't it be better to just leave people to believe what they choose to believe? Supposing someone is in bereavement, and the Gospel of Christ gives them some comfort through this. Even if you don't believe it yourself, wouldn't it be kinder to allow them to seek solace in their beliefs, rather than try to force them to accept your world-view? After all, in the end it makes no difference to you, does it SusanDoris?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It hasn't been written yet. It has overcome itself to a great degree but also too little too late.
I suspect it's greatest successes so far are lost in the late Roman pre-Augustinean, Celtic, British times.
It's greatest failures include WWI and WWII of course. A cheerleader for the first and all but 99.9% acquiescence in the second. But for George Bell.
Perhaps if it - WE - truly embraced the poor and followed Jesus its success would start.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
Plenty of examples of growing churches in the UK - between 1980 and 1992, the Baptist Union had been involved in planting 183 new churches. In the 1990s, nearly 200 Baptist churches were planted. Between 1990 and 2010 the number of members of Anglican churches in London rose by 70%. In the last 30 years, more than 5000 churches have been planted in the UK. Churches built around missioonal communities (like St Thomas Crookes in Sheffield and Mosaic Church in Leeds) have grown significantly through outreach - impact of the Fresh Expressions initiative still being assessed. Overall picture is of decline in some areas and growth in others. I'll bet we see a trend in lapsed Catholics recommitting through the influence of the new Pope.
My contribution to the o/p - the UK prot mission movements. Promoting Bible reading meant promoting reading, which had the side effect of promoting education for all. That's had a massive international social, as well as spiritual impact, recognised by secular as as well as Christian historians.
[ 06. April 2013, 12:39: Message edited by: Truman White ]
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It hasn't been written yet. It has overcome itself to a great degree but also too little too late.
I suspect it's greatest successes so far are lost in the late Roman pre-Augustinean, Celtic, British times.
Some might say that Celtic Christianity was eventually overwhelmed by the Augustinian type. As such it's not exactly a great 'success story', although I'm sure it left its mark.
quote:
Perhaps if it - WE - truly embraced the poor and followed Jesus its success would start.
But you talk as if the poor aren't Christians too. If the poor are Christians then they're part of British Christianity, and therefore influence it by their presence. Christianity doesn't belong to the rich, or to a church hierarchy.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I think Christians Against Poverty deserve a mention. They've helped thousands of people get out of debt, introduced Jesus to many people who were completely unchurched, and won several secular awards for being a good employer. My church runs a CAP centre and it's been just brilliant in many different ways.
Funnily enough, there's an interesting contrast with Alpha, in that CAP brings the Christian message to many people who know virtually nothing about it, whereas Alpha seems effective at giving already interested people a forum for exploring Christianity further.
My church is a CAP centre and runs Alpha, and the current Alpha attendees are mostly CAP clients.
I honestly don't get the 'middle-class' tag. There are so many ways to do Alpha that aren't dinner-parties full of accountants. Most of the ones we have run (in pubs, gyms, curry houses etc) have included everyone from company executives to homeless guys with 3 words of English.
It's worked for us over the almost 20 years we have existed as a church. Most people who come to us are 'unchurched', many have come through an Alpha course (though many in other ways too) and, as much as London is a transient city, many have stayed with us a long time.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
When people start criticizing an activity for being "middle class" (and the person criticizing it, is very probably a middle class person too...) you just know that there is no point at all.
The problem with Alpha is... it is evangelical christianity. And people who don´t like evangelicalism will not like it. But they are doing their job. You cannot criticize a church course for teaching exactly those church´s beliefs... that´s what you expect when you go do a Church´s course. And you can´t criticize it for being too superficial, when the course is aimed exactly at newcomers and people who are not familiar with christianity.
I have used Start! As an alternative in less Middle Class areas.
The problem I have with Alpha is that it does not reflect my understanding or experience of the faith. In Catholic circles it is used as very much a first step - but culturally Alpha feels very Evangelical. It is hard to commend or lead a course which doesn't reflect your own faith.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Most British churches with the resources and the manpower to run an Alpha course probably are middle class anyway, though I'm sure there are exceptions. In addition, I understand that British Alpha is most successful at increasing the devotion and commitment of people who are already part of church life, most of whom, again, are likely to be more middle class than anything else. This may not seem like 'real' evangelism, but considering that so many people have been leaving churches, anything that gets them more involved and more spiritually refreshed is a good thing, from a Christian point of view.
The alternatives to Alpha are less well-known, so in that sense they're plainly less successful. Those who would prefer far less evangelical courses need to work out how to produce something that will rival Alpha in terms of reputation, how to create a course that churches nationwide will feel confident about investing their scarce resources in. A great course that hardly any church is prepared to use may be a local success, but by definition it won't be a great success story for the UK.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Out this afternoon, but will respond later.
OK, I'm going out in a bit too. But when you get the chance, think on this - wouldn't it be better to just leave people to believe what they choose to believe? Supposing someone is in bereavement, and the Gospel of Christ gives them some comfort through this. Even if you don't believe it yourself, wouldn't it be kinder to allow them to seek solace in their beliefs, rather than try to force them to accept your world-view? After all, in the end it makes no difference to you, does it SusanDoris?
I agree that people's private beliefs make no difference to me, but the huge organisations they belong to do most certainly make a difference. Religious voices are in evidence in this country's law-making and in many parts of the world their influence is far more central, causing intolerance and bigotry.And - yes, I can hear some voices here thinking, oh dear, here she goes again! - to tell children such unevidenced beliefs are true is where I draw the line.
I had such a very interesting afternoon yesterday - I'll put it in Heaven or All Saints.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Svitlana2.
The Saxons had already displaced the Chritianized Celts.
Christianity is the province of power, class, wealth still. A sanction. A self-congratulatory blessing. A ring on the finger of privilege. The Christianity of the poor is real but invisible. Neglected, deprived. Which is why Islam is so successful.
Christianity can only make a visible difference if it is SEEN to. It makes NONE in Britain or anywhere else to any extent, for good. There is no conversation, no controversy in the market place. It is rightfully sneered at for condemning gay marriage in Britain. That's IT.
The fields are white for harvest and we do NOTHING. Worse than nothing, as usual.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christianity can only make a visible difference if it is SEEN to. It makes NONE in Britain or anywhere else to any extent, for good. There is no conversation, no controversy in the market place. It is rightfully sneered at for condemning gay marriage in Britain. That's IT.
Hmm, I know what you're getting at with this and, just looking at the UK national picture (maybe worldwide too), I agree. But in my own experience, Christianity is making a positive difference at a local level, in my town. My church seems to be building up some local respect for good deeds, in particular with reference to the school where we have our Sunday meetings. And there's some town-wide stuff that Christians from various churches are getting involved in and being held in positive regard by the secular service providers.
I expect many other Shipmates could tell the same story regarding their community, although I really do take the point that most UK national coverage of Christians and churches is negative, about stuff like the women bishops vote, gay marriage, creationism etc. (Dead Horses ahoy.)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Continuing this tangent:
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
And like Welsh, all that will remain will be groups of middle-class hobbyists and literati.
I was on Ynys Môn for the Triduum, in places like Y Fali, Caergybi, Llangefni and Porthaethwy (places not known for middle-class people) and heard plenty of Welsh being spoken, including by young people. I don't know about the part of Wales you live in, but speaking Welsh on Ynys Môn and in Gwynedd (another place I am familiar with) is very much done by the working-class.
Of course, this census saw a slight decline in the amount of people speaking Welsh, but that has to take into account young people (like myself) leaving Wales, as well as English immigrants who don't learn the language (though I've known some English immigrants who have become fluent).
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Svitlana2.
The Saxons had already displaced the Chritianized Celts.
Christianity is the province of power, class, wealth still. A sanction. A self-congratulatory blessing. A ring on the finger of privilege. The Christianity of the poor is real but invisible. Neglected, deprived. Which is why Islam is so successful.
Christianity can only make a visible difference if it is SEEN to. It makes NONE in Britain or anywhere else to any extent, for good. There is no conversation, no controversy in the market place. It is rightfully sneered at for condemning gay marriage in Britain. That's IT.
The fields are white for harvest and we do NOTHING. Worse than nothing, as usual.
I certainly agree that the poor are underrepresented in the British church, and that this is a long-term tragedy. However, plenty of British church movements in the past, and worldwide movements up to the present time have been and are being generated by poorer people, so to suggest that 'Christianity' is doing nothing doesn't seem fair.
You write as an Anglican, so you tend to see the church as a powerful institution whose job it is to reach down to help poor people. I'm a Non-Conformist with Pentecostal and Third World family connections, so for me, it's essential to remember what the poor can and have done for themselves. Actually, it's their spirituality that's in the ascendant across the world, if not in the UK.
Maybe one day the disestablishment of the CofE will be a great success story for British Christianity! A state church is inevitably a church that's part of the power structure.
As for the success of Islam, that's mostly due to Muslim immigrants and their descendants, not to indigeous poor people converting. But this might become more of a factor in the distant future if Islam becomes the only communal form of religion that's widely available.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Point taken Svitlana2, thank you. That I would like to see and get involved with. Evangelical services bore me to tears and worse!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
...as is Sandy Millar (I mean yet another Old Etonian who was the principal founder of the Alpha Course.)
No, in fact I was not even aware of what was an "old etonian" until I googled it now.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
When people start criticizing an activity for being "middle class" (and the person criticizing it, is very probably a middle class person too...) you just know that there is no point at all.
The problem with Alpha is... it is evangelical christianity. And people who don´t like evangelicalism will not like it. But they are doing their job. You cannot criticize a church course for teaching exactly those church´s beliefs... that´s what you expect when you go do a Church´s course. And you can´t criticize it for being too superficial, when the course is aimed exactly at newcomers and people who are not familiar with christianity.
I have used Start! As an alternative in less Middle Class areas.
The problem I have with Alpha is that it does not reflect my understanding or experience of the faith. In Catholic circles it is used as very much a first step - but culturally Alpha feels very Evangelical. It is hard to commend or lead a course which doesn't reflect your own faith.
But what exactly does Alpha teaches that don´t reflect your faith? I always hear people sayng that about Alpha, but their often very generic.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Originally posted by Mark Betts
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church? Oh, I've heard plenty of talk about "Back to Church Sunday", gushing media articles about how individuals' lives have been changed, but how can it be such a success story when people are still deserting the churches? Therefore, I can't describe anything contemporary as UK Christianity's greatest success story - all I see is failure.
Not sure about the "failure" but I do think that Alpha and Church Planting are much over-hyped.
Why? Well, we have an evangelical/charismatic "youth-centred" outfit near which, I heard, attracts "hundreds" of teenagers every Sunday "because they find there what they don't get in their own church". I was sceptical but the children were intrigued so along they trooped...
For "hundreds" read 30-40. Children found it very similar to a Family Service at our local church and were not inspired but, on the basis that a one-off visit might not be typical they stuck with it for 3 months, at the end of which they resumed attendance at our main Sunday service with relief.
They reported that most attendees were the children of the organisers, weren't there from choice and many found the worship songs with "Christian rock-group" backing cringe-making. My children were questioned closely about what our church is like and we've had return visits of children from school who go to "living church": the structure of our service intrigued them and they appreciated the shorter length.
At our parish's recent MAP meeting this outfit was again being quoted as a huge success story with "hundreds of really committed teens present every Sunday, worshipping God in a way they find more meaningful and with songs they choose themselves": since I had advance notice this line was going to be trotted out children came with me and gave their report - very red faced promoter of "living church" and much blustering.
I'm told by their Electoral Roll Officer that the Alpha Courses run at my nearest church for the past 10 years have had little or no effect on numbers: the biggest driver of attendance in this part of the world is the requirement to attend to get into the CofE secondary school - and that is the same for all the parishes in the catchment area.
As for Messrs Gumbel and Millar, I think you'll find they were much influenced by their friendship with Noel Tredinnick (All Souls Langham Place) and Nick Page (ex-Hildenborough) and the religion-lite Prom Praise format. The meals are an inspiration and probably owe more to being within spitting distance of Notting Hill than anything more biblical.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
...and UK Christianity's greatest success story?
I'm with Alogon ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) the choral foundations of our cathedrals and collegiate churches.
And the bit that may be more noticeable by Joe Public would be change bell-ringing... more difficult that it looks. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
But what exactly does Alpha teaches that don´t reflect your faith? I always hear people sayng that about Alpha, but their often very generic.
Try http://wquercus.com/faith/alpha.htm
I don't have an issue with others having an Alpha type faith, but I don't.
The sacraments are the beginning and ending of my experience of the faith, salvation is ongoing and corporate. I happen to be Charismatic but that is less important to me than these areas. My default perception of Christian Orthodoxy runs from Wesley to the Antiochan Orthodox.
So Alpha comes from another place. Not a bad place. Just a different one I struggle to inhabit.
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Not sure about the "failure" but I do think that Alpha and Church Planting are much over-hyped.
Why? Well, we have an evangelical/charismatic "youth-centred" outfit near which, I heard, attracts "hundreds" of teenagers every Sunday "because they find there what they don't get in their own church". I was sceptical but the children were intrigued so along they trooped...
For "hundreds" read 30-40. Children found it very similar to a Family Service at our local church and were not inspired but, on the basis that a one-off visit might not be typical they stuck with it for 3 months, at the end of which they resumed attendance at our main Sunday service with relief.
Well, Alpha doesn´t specify any type of liturgy or churchmanship the church must adopt in order to run the course. My church is a traditional lutheran church in Brazil and they have an Alpha course run yearly. It has brought some new members to our church alon the way, most of them young couples from 25-35 years old who were previously non-practicing catholics. We don´t have "praise bands" in our sunday service and I´m glad from that, as I find most of the praise bands I´ve seen in other parishes to be horrible.
However, I have been in other parishes that criticize the course and its results, and what they all had in common is that, despite they were so sure that our methods weren´t good, they weren´t doing anything alternatively. They merely accepted that their ethinic church will always have dwindling numbers until it becomes small enough to be closed. And most of the doctrinal criticism towards Alpha comes from the pastor´s own liberal views on the subjects of the Alpha course, which are not in harmony with our confession of faith, creeds and tradition anyway. I reckon any criticism towards a church´s course should be made from the perspective of that own church´s teachings, not from what liberals expect our church should teach. I don´t get, for example, the criticism that the Alpha course only mentions 2 sacraments... when our church´s own doctrine only recognize those 2!
However, if someone who took the course seeks to become a member in our parish, he will also take doctrine lessons that will teach some lutheran specific doctrines, for example, what we believe about the Lord´s Supper (which is not treated entirely on the Alpha course). However, I reckon those church specific stuff are not of great interest to those with little or no previous contact with the Church, and are not readily decided to become members, but only trying to explore what that religion is about.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Posted by gorpo
However, I have been in other parishes that criticize the course and its results, and what they all had in common is that, despite they were so sure that our methods weren´t good, they weren´t doing anything alternatively.
Well, in my parish we DO have alternatives - maybe of general interest at least in smaller, more rural parishes?
1. Newcomers' Party
The organiser of our door-to-door collections and the WI between them prepare an annual list of houses that have changed hands in the past year. All people who have moved into the parish are invited to the Newcomers' Party: fantastic buffet, chance to meet representatives of all the parish organisations - that is local government parish, not just church. So, reps of WI, church, football club, birdwatching group, etc, etc, are all there to meet-and-greet. It finishes with an audio-visual presentation by a local history buff - everything from the record in the Domesday Book to characters who lived in your house before you. The evening starts early and the audio-visual is sufficiently stimulating so that children of 8+ find it enjoyable.
2. Parish Magazine
Too many church mags are turgid and inward-looking: we have a magazine for all the parish - cookery, nature watch, poems from the local school, etc, etc - and virtually every household subscribes.
3. "Event" Services
We manage to involve the wider parish - particularly the CP school - in these: Plough Sunday, Mothering Sunday, Rogation Walk, Harvest, Remembrance Sunday, Christmas (special Village service, no choir), anyone who has experienced a bereavement in the past year is personally invited to the All Souls Requiem and the most recent village baby is invited to play Jesus in the Nativity tableau vivant on Christmas Day with Mum and Dad as Mary and Joseph - most of our recent infants have been girls but hey...
I could go on - our annual Fete is like something from a Marple film, complete with uniformed silver band in the middle playing selections from G&S - but you get the drift.
While the church is the driver for much of this, we work closely with the WI in particular and the result is a generally happy place where everyone feels they have a stake in the parish, and the parish church by extension. And yes, we do "do God"!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
While the church is the driver for much of this, we work closely with the WI in particular and the result is a generally happy place where everyone feels they have a stake in the parish, and the parish church by extension. And yes, we do "do God"!
Of course, not every area has an outpost of the WI (Women's Institute) that churches can call on. (And the only branch I've ever come across is definitely in a middle class area!)
Interestingly, I've never thought of Alpha as a very 'villagey' thing. The emphasis on meals and groups is perhaps more meaningful in suburban and city churches, where it's too easy for individuals to hide themselves away, and there's a real need to create community. Villages already possess a sense of community, supposedly, so there's no need to import one, but just to harness the community spirit that's already present.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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womanspeak
Shipmate
# 15394
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Posted
Churches who do not provide for the non-churched, the newcomer, the enquirer, for families and their children, and who do not welcome all the ages and stages of life are dying before our eyes in the west.
And yet among this depressing reality their are centres of growth. Churches, which are growing not just by transfer but by care, prayer and the creation of community, by welcome and provision of introductory courses or opportunities for evangelism, give me hope.
Alpha is one model which can be adapted to give confidence, training and the opportunity for current church members to give account of their faith to others.
As a friend and I said to each other some ten years ago after we had taken home some oldies - who will be here to take us to church? Well in my parish we remain among the youngest - and I'm mid-sixies now. Oh to have a parish which was focused out into the community and open to evangelism.
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from the bush
Posts: 62 | From: rural australia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
Darke in F.
Whether you love it or loathe it it's there in every Cathedral in the land and in every parish church with any choral pretensions.
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
OK, I'm going out in a bit too. But when you get the chance, think on this - wouldn't it be better to just leave people to believe what they choose to believe?
Doesn't that chain of logic mean that you should follow the same path and not talk about Christianity?
And no. The acolytes of Nurgle who were behind the anti-vaccination scares shouldn't be left to proseletise their nonsense unopposed. People undermining our knowledge of the world shouldn't be free to pass on their misconceptions to children.
What we believe matters. And so does truth. Without getting as close as we can to the truth even if we don't reach it a lot of advancement is blocked to us.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Justinian
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# 5357
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Posted
And Christianity's great success stories in Britain?
Abolition. Much of the drive towards education. Fixed pricing in shops (no I'm not joking - this was a Quaker initiative for honesty).
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
Posted by Maureen Lash
Darke in F. Whether you love it or loathe it it's there in every Cathedral in the land and in every parish church with any choral pretensions.
... which could be why naughty choristers, young and old, reverse your words...
Whereas the Nunc dimittis from Dyson in F...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
Posted by gorpo
quote:Originally posted by Mark Betts: ...You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you? [Devil] ...as is Sandy Millar (I mean yet another Old Etonian who was the principal founder of the Alpha Course.)
... as are/were King Leopold III of the Belgians (see Heart of Darkness, Crown Prince Dipendra of Nepal (slaughtered 8 family members), Lord Lucan (suspected nanny murderer, Guy Burgess (traitorous spy), Darius Guppy (fraudster), Boris Johnson (serial shagger), Humphrey Lyttleton (jazz musician), Anthony Loyd (self-confessed sometime heroin and war junkie), etc, etc
Why the obsession with where a famous/infamous person's parents chose to send them to school?
The fact that Gumbel, Millar and Welby attended Eton is irrelevant, with the possible exception that none should therefore try to use lack of a decent education or ignorance to excuse/explain bad or mad behaviour.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
And Christianity's great success stories in Britain?
Abolition. Much of the drive towards education. Fixed pricing in shops (no I'm not joking - this was a Quaker initiative for honesty).
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