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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Prof fired for asking students to stomp on the word ‘Jesus’ (Page 5)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Prof fired for asking students to stomp on the word ‘Jesus’
mdijon
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Thanks.

Yes, I would argue for a reconsideration of how the exercise ought to be done, but that is not to say I don't recognise some points of great value in the exercise, and certainly not to say that, on the basis of the information I have, that the prof should be sacked or disciplined, and very certainly indeed not to say that threats of violence are justified.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
the student confronted the professor after the class had been dismissed. Which makes it harder to ascertain whether the student was being threatening or not.

At every class or seminar I have ever been in, whether as student or teacher, it has been routine for people to approach the speaker with questions at the end, if those questions aren't directly relevant to the whole class. I can certainly see how a student could consider "I am angry with the content of this class" to be the kind of thing that should be held for the end rather than interrupting the class.

quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
The professor, who is a Christian himself, has received death threats.

And the reaction here is "We don't know whether this particular lesson was as well taught and conceived as it might have been."

We had the same discussion on the Adria Richards thread. Everybody agrees that death threats, rape threats and all the rest of it are wrong. We don't need to spend five pages of text agreeing about that.

The open questions, about whether the class should have been taught at all, or in what form, and about the student's reaction, are generating more disagreement.

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gorpo
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
But am I the only one who thinks the professor might actually be one to learn something from this incident too?

Yep.

Don't take risks (even if the exercise in the syllabus which has been used for 30 years). Pussy foot around your students and worry every minute about their reactions. Keep your head down, do as you are told and don't even think of treating your students as adults who are responsible for their own actions and reactions.

If he wanted to take risks, he should have used Mohammed instead.

Being anti-christian in a university is not taking risks! Seriously! It is standard.

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gorpo
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
The professor, who is a Christian himself, has received death threats.

And the reaction here is "We don't know whether this particular lesson was as well taught and conceived as it might have been." "Actually the professor was not taking much of a risk, because Christians are an easy target." "But am I the only one who thinks the professor might actually be one to learn something from this incident too?" "I hope this idiot's career is finished for good. "

If he has received death threats, that might explain the fact that he now is an outspoken christian! Nobody here is submitting to violence and threats against the professor. But I do hope he gets another job.
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Trudy Scrumptious

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I guess I just honestly do not see how introducing a classroom activity designed to make students think about their own reactions to something is in any way similar to using them as research subjects. One of those areas where our perspectives are just so different it's probably not possible to reach agreement. I think part of it is that we are probably each visualizing how this played out in the classroom rather differently and responding to the scenario in our heads.

(To briefly continue the tangent about my communism, capitalism and chips experiment, distributing it based on their grades would be counter to the point I'm making, since no personal achievement can affect whether you are born into a poor, middle-class, or wealthy family. And I wouldn't have the necessary information to base in on their family income even if I wanted to as we have usually no financial information about our students and no contact with their parents. As far as I'm concerned the distribution of resources in this world is every bit as arbitrary as my decision on who gets the chips, but obviously my own political biases inform the way I structure the assignment. As do the biases of anyone who makes up any kind of teaching activity, including the one under discussion in this thread: something else it's good for a teacher to be aware of).

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Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I guess I just honestly do not see how introducing a classroom activity designed to make students think about their own reactions to something is in any way similar to using them as research subjects.

Surely the effect on the students is the same, whether the same activity happens in the context of a class or in the context of a research experiment.

In your potato chip example, you're not really engaging powerful emotions. Nobody is going to get all that worked up over a few chips.

But suppose instead you walked in to the class, and announced to the students that their fees pay for expendable resources to be used in class, and that for your class, you have $20 per student. And then you produce a stack of bank notes, say "here's this class's money", give most of it to one student, a few dollars to a couple of other students, and none to the rest.

Would that be a reasonable way of putting your point across? Not only does one student get a big stack of cash that the others don't get, but you have told them that it's actually their money that the college has taken, and you've given it to the guy at the front.

I don't think you'd do that.

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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
The professor, who is a Christian himself, has received death threats.

If he has received death threats, that might explain the fact that he now is an outspoken christian!
You have of course no evidence to support this slander.

But let's assume for the moment that your twisted and ugly view is correct. Let's assume that some people claiming to be Christians and to speak for Christ have, by threats of violence and death, caused this man to, in fear for his life and his family, profess a love for Jesus he does not hold.

What should our Christian response be?

We must condemn utterly and unambiguously the violence.

We must express our empathy and support for the man and the trial he is going through.

We must make it clear that any insult to Christianity this man might have made pales into insignificance against the infinitely greater insult to Christianity by these other so-called Christians.

We must not make a perfunctory condemnation of the violence then spend pages debating what the victim may or have not done to trigger it.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:

We must not make a perfunctory condemnation of the violence then spend pages debating what the victim may or have not done to trigger it.

Demas, first of all, thanks for the really good job in digging out that link. It helped the thread a lot.

On your above question, my answer is I agree - sort of!

But there is a difficulty here. Educational exercises with an obviously good teaching point, but which also offend cultural sensitivities, probably do need to be looked at to see whether the same point could be made more effectively, or less confusingly, in a less confrontational way.

I read that the exercise is over thirty years old. Will it still work the way it was originally intended to do, or will it produce more heat than light? Or is the purpose of the exercise to produce the heat so that the light will dawn? A shock tactic with to underline a lesson which it would help people to learn?

Here's an exercise that Jim Wallis and a friend used to use in teaching within a circle of conservative churches. They had taken a copy of the bible and removed huge chunks from it. Pages had verses cut out. Books were removed in their entirety. The bible was truly mutilated, tatty. They used to wave it at the congregation so that its mutilation could be seen. Then came the teaching point. "This is a bible form which all verses relating to God's heart for the poor and oppressed have been removed. The question we ask is, is this your bible? Do you read your bibles as though the parts we have cut out are not in it?"

When I first heard that story, I thought "what a very effective way of making an important point". I think Wallis has reflected on it and is no longer so sure. What far too many people remembered was that the act of cutting up the bible to make a point showed a callous regard for the Word of God. Apparently, they didn't get invited back very often either. The same point can be made without trampling over the symbolic value of the Bible in the culture. What does "effective" mean in that setting?

Note that I'm not arguing against confrontational teaching methods per se. I'm arguing that consideration of effectiveness is a proper one. That means respecting your audience, considering what will work best with them.

These days missionaries to different countries learn a lot more about cultural relevance. In the end, by preaching "Christ crucified" they may indeed be causing offence, but it does help to understand the nature of the offence you may be causing. There are ways and means.

Now I agree with everything that has been said about academic freedom and the value of the teaching point of the exercise. But I am still uncomfortable about it because it seems to me to lack some wisdom about its own effectiveness in modern times.

Others have made this point in different sorts of ways. Move the class to a University in a predominantly Islamic culture. Encourage the students to write, in their own language and symbols, the word Koran, or Mohammed, and then ask them to step on the word.

Well, no, you wouldn't would you? What's the difference? Self-preservation (of your job at the very least) might have something to do with it, for sure, but don't you get the idea that it really wouldn't do the job it was intended to do. Because the power of the symbol is too great? Well, yes. But because the effect of giving gratuitous offence will actually swamp the teaching point you are trying to make? For sure, that is a truth. Knowing your audience matters.

How much do we need to consider the danger that the teaching point may not be illuminated by the heat but get burned by it?

I agree your proportionality point, but this effectiveness point is also worth considering when designing teaching methods. Particularly when something like this incident and its ramifications occur.

[ 06. April 2013, 07:32: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Demas
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In turn I agree with you - sort of!

Your post is thoughtful and interesting. I myself have reservations about the exercise. There are a lot of complicated overlapping issues of power (both that of the professor and the students) which I think should be carefully teased out. It is an interesting debate which would be fun and informative to have with you.

But not a debate for now. Now we should focus on the main crime and the main blasphemy - the main threat to individuals and to our faith.

While the death threats are happening is not the time to discuss the nuances of college classes. The self-described Christians who issued those threats, I think, destroyed our ability to discuss the lesson or the professor's conduct. Maybe it is possible, with enough caveats in the conversation. But I don't think this thread has had remotely enough caveats.

I'm not merely talking about our specific words, but what we aren't saying and what we assume and what we emphasise.

It is a standard trope of criticism of religion that moderates enable the extremists. As a moderate, I mostly dismiss it...

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Mudfrog
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Did you know that it's an offence to write on the face of the Queen on a banknote? Even though it's just a piece of paper and it's just ink?

As for stamping on the name of Jesus - what would you have said if the professor had asked the students to stamp on a communion wafer?

I mean, it's only...

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Demas
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If that was intended for me you have missed my entire point while illustrating it.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Mudfrog
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No, it was a comment pertinent to the whole thread and not any individual post.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:

It is a standard trope of criticism of religion that moderates enable the extremists. As a moderate, I mostly dismiss it...

Liked that. Particularly the mostly!

I think you're right about the proportionate point, (a point which was also made on the "Twitter photo" thread.) There's a Styxy sort of a point which I'll make here, but only as a Shipmate who also wears a Host hat from time to time.

I think the issues of cultural awareness and effectiveness are relevant to the thread in toto and as a Host, I wouldn't want to exclude them. So here folks are basically free to change the proportional balance simply by the way they post. The overall effect can be disproportionate; which also happens in many-voiced pub discussion, and just because of the amount of drink taken. Victory may go to the loudest and longest! It's a kind of price we pay for the "fun" of contributing here.

And there's a sense in which cultural awareness and effectiveness should be aired here. When it comes to the Mormon balling his fists for example, I can see a needlessly aggressive reaction to a presentation which may have overlooked that there might be some (shall I say) "zealotry" in the room.

The US is a place of convictions. I think there are many "zealots" about, many of whom I would wish to shake firmly by the throat, only I can't because I'm a Christian and am called to love them!

I think if I was in any position of leadership there, I'd be saying "calm down and take stock. This has been blown up out of all proportion. Important facts and considerations are getting lost in the heat of the publicity. That really isn't helping anyone."

If the student who is said to have posted "victory" (as I remember reading) actually did that, in that action he said more about his lack of appreciation about the purpose of a teaching college than by his initial angry reaction. That was an asshole act if ever I saw one. As if learning was about winning. Or "you are there to verify the correctness of my assumptions and values, how dare you do otherwise, you voice of satan ...(or something like that)"

I'd stand up to that all right, no problem. No matter who it came from. I have zero sympathy for any student who would do that, regardless of faith or political convictions. That's more redolent of a schoolyard fight than any kind of emerging adult response.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Barnabas62
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A PS. Just been listening to an affectionate radio portrait of Tom Lehrer, who is celebrating his 85th birthday (and Lord, that makes me feel old). Tom was a mathematics academic who became famous in the 60's for a whole load of satirical songs which made me and many others laugh as well as think. ("When the world becomes uranius we will all go simultaneous ..." etc).

Including in the programme was the astonishing (to me) fact that his scout-winding-up-song "Be prepared" actually got banned in Australia for a while, following protests about misrepresentation. That's ludicrous. But it shows you can take group sensitivities too far .. There's a point at which cultural relevance also becomes just plain silly.

[ 06. April 2013, 10:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Anyuta
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A PS. Just been listening to an affectionate radio portrait of Tom Lehrer, who is celebrating his 85th birthday (and Lord, that makes me feel old). Tom was a mathematics academic who became famous in the 60's for a whole load of satirical songs which made me and many others laugh as well as think. ("When the world becomes uranius we will all go simultaneous ..." etc).

Including in the programme was the astonishing (to me) fact that his scout-winding-up-song "Be prepared" actually got banned in Australia for a while, following protests about misrepresentation. That's ludicrous. But it shows you can take group sensitivities too far .. There's a point at which cultural relevance also becomes just plain silly.

Love, love LOVE Tom Lehrer!

People need to get a sense of humor. I'm a VERY active scout, and have been all my life. I find the song "be prepared" to be a hoot. I've sung it for my (older) scouts. Doesn't make me think that Tom is dissing scouting. It's a form of humor using the idea of turning things on their heads. It takes something known for quality a and presents it as having the opposite quality. It's funny when done well, and Tom L is a master.

Getting upset by this is up there with people refusing to read Huck Finn because of the use of a certain word, even though the book clearly deals very positively with the issue.

When we over react to certain things, it doesn't serve our own goal of protecting whatever it is, but just the opposite, by making us look silly, and by association, makes genuine concerns of what ever also seem unimportant.

It's a fine line, though...one persons over reaction may be another's genuine concern, obviously. But in some cases I think it should be fairly clear.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
To briefly continue the tangent about my communism, capitalism and chips experiment, distributing it based on their grades would be counter to the point I'm making, since no personal achievement can affect whether you are born into a poor, middle-class, or wealthy family.

It would seem that they would learn that with personal achievement things can happen regardless of family circumstances. Doesn't have something to do with why they are in school in the first place? Is there not such a thing as class mobility where you live? I know folks who were born in to poor families who are now rich because of their achievements and I know folks who were born into rich families who eventually went bankrupt.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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Obviously, the administration of FAU is following my comments in their relentless quest for deep wisdom. It seems a good way to alter this course a little bit would be to first have the students write a brief paper on who they think is the most important person, admire the most, etc. Later on, as the papers are returned, have a piece of paper added to each with the student-supplied name on it and then ask them all to stomp on the name they each gave. Then ask those who stomp why they did and why those that didn't, didn't. It seems the same lesson could be taught, whatever that lesson is, and the professor can practice the time-honored tradition of CYA.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Barnabas62
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<Lehrer Tangent>

It does have something to do with the thread.

Here is "We will all go together"

Written 50-some years ago, and it shows Lehrer's astonishing gift with words. But of course it contains at least one obvious non-PC line

"Every hottentot and every Eskimo"

You can kind of hear a certain type of fulmination. "Disgraceful choice of words for a so-called intelligent academic! Obviously the 60's were the dark ages when it came to cultural enlightenment! Ban all his songs, don't ever use them even in cultural studies! Minds must not be damaged by such careless exposure to Europeanised labellings of indigenous tribes. Bah!!"

And of course that really would be humbug. It is reasonable to consider group sensitivities, changing standards, when looking at course material for subjects such as inter-cultural communications. But some people get affronted so easily. Which is sad. Fancy not being able to enjoy Lehrer ..

Anyway, to balance out the possible offence, here's "The Vatican Rag".

</Lehrer Tangent>

[ 06. April 2013, 16:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
<Lehrer Tangent>

It does have something to do with the thread.

Here is "We will all go together"

Written 50-some years ago, and it shows Lehrer's astonishing gift with words. But of course it contains at least one obvious non-PC line

"Every hottentot and every Eskimo"

You can kind of hear a certain type of fulmination. "Disgraceful choice of words for a so-called intelligent academic! Obviously the 60's were the dark ages when it came to cultural enlightenment! Ban all his songs, don't ever use them even in cultural studies! Minds must not be damaged by such careless exposure to Europeanised labellings of indigenous tribes. Bah!!"

And of course that really would be humbug. It is reasonable to consider group sensitivities, changing standards, when looking at course material for subjects such as inter-cultural communications. But some people get affronted so easily. Which is sad. Fancy not being able to enjoy Lehrer ..

Anyway, to balance out the possible offence, here's "The Vatican Rag".

</Lehrer Tangent>

I know they're Inuit these days, but is Eskimo anything more than an old name like Stalingrad, Bombay, Yugoslav or Zaire?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Barnabas62
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Not to me. Descriptive rather than pejorative. Certainly at the time.

The arguments against it are similar for example to the argument against calling the inhabitants of Lapland Lapps. (Or calling the region Lapland as well) The indigenous people who we called Lapps call themselves the Sami; why should we not call them that? Indeed, in Scandinavia, as a mark of respect, "Sami" has more or less replaced "Lapp" as the proper term. That's a good change, I think.

But in the 60's nobody deliberately meant anything pejorative by the term Eskimo (or Lapp). The issue of what constituted respect for Inuit or Sami as indigenous groups hadn't got so far as considering whether it was more respectful to use their own descriptor, rather than the one "we" were used to.

I'll bet my bottom dollar Tom Lehrer knows that, BTW.

There's a point to these sorts of language considerations; they help cultural awareness. I'd describe Eskimo and Lapp as out-of-date descriptors, being replaced by more culturally respectful alternatives.

And that is also, I guess, an interesting discussion point for a cultural studies course.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Not to me. Descriptive rather than pejorative. Certainly at the time.

The arguments against it are similar for example to the argument against calling the inhabitants of Lapland Lapps. (Or calling the region Lapland as well) The indigenous people who we called Lapps call themselves the Sami; why should we not call them that? Indeed, in Scandinavia, as a mark of respect, "Sami" has more or less replaced "Lapp" as the proper term. That's a good change, I think.

But in the 60's nobody deliberately meant anything pejorative by the term Eskimo (or Lapp). The issue of what constituted respect for Inuit or Sami as indigenous groups hadn't got so far as considering whether it was more respectful to use their own descriptor, rather than the one "we" were used to.

I'll bet my bottom dollar Tom Lehrer knows that, BTW.

There's a point to these sorts of language considerations; they help cultural awareness. I'd describe Eskimo and Lapp as out-of-date descriptors, being replaced by more culturally respectful alternatives.

And that is also, I guess, an interesting discussion point for a cultural studies course.

There must be something more peculiar going on, though. Otherwise we would be expected not to say Wales, Germany, Holland or Hungary any more.

It's also odd how we tolerate a major World Power with a huge army and a seat on the Security Council being hissy about how we spell the name of its capital. So it can't just be something to do with perceptions of cultural domination by the equivalent of a more sophisticated surrounding Canadian or Scandinavian community.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Barnabas62
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Enoch

I suspect you and I are singing off a pretty similar hymn sheet! There's some over-reaction going on in some quarters to the use of what gets classified as non-PC language.

My own position is probably close to that expressed by an advert (McDonalds I think) which has struck a bit of a chord with me. Group of young women discussing a text one of them has received (from a young man?)

"See you LATAH! I mean, what does that MEAN??"

I think reading sexism or racism or any other kind of -ism from the use of an older expression - rather than one which has a new stamp of approval - is making a large assumption about what that person means, or their underlying values. But some people do that. Not sure whether its a new form of intolerance or simply an example of the dangers of assumptions. When someone does that, if I don't know them very well, I'm inclined to ask myself "what does that mean - if anything?" If I do know them, I know!

Here's a truth about the use of older - or old-fashioned language. When two people do it, they may not be doing the same thing!

[ 07. April 2013, 15:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But not a debate for now. Now we should focus on the main crime and the main blasphemy - the main threat to individuals and to our faith.

While the death threats are happening is not the time to discuss the nuances of college classes.

With this you give the extremists the power to shut down discussion on any topic. Issue a few death threats, and nobody can talk about the real topic any more, just the death threats. Voilà! Freedom of speech effectively curtailed.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The arguments against it are similar for example to the argument against calling the inhabitants of Lapland Lapps.

Well, no. It's more like the argument for not calling the French "Germans."

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The arguments against it are similar for example to the argument against calling the inhabitants of Lapland Lapps.

Well, no. It's more like the argument for not calling the French "Germans."
I think it's more complicated than the use of Lapp but bears some similarities. The Wiki article gives a fuller picture, but as usual I'm not claiming it's fully accurate.

What's interesting is that it looks as though the Inuit adopted Inuit themselves, but there is some continuing use of Eskimo in documents produced by the Inuit Council. Which suggests a more relaxed view by the Inuit themselves then the general view amongst Canadians and Greenlanders that it is pejorative!

I quite liked that. It was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Ah, the joys of cultural exploration!

[ 07. April 2013, 15:57: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But in the 60's nobody deliberately meant anything pejorative by the term Eskimo (or Lapp). The issue of what constituted respect for Inuit or Sami as indigenous groups hadn't got so far as considering whether it was more respectful to use their own descriptor, rather than the one "we" were used to.

But we continue to speak of Finland, while the natives call the country Suomi. AFAIK they don't object to our terminology.

Moo

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Barnabas62
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Moo

Clearly I must be misrepresenting myself here and seem to be creating a huge tangent!

I'm no poster boy for pedantic politically correct language. I'm trying to explain how certain aspects of politically correct language emerged and became important to some groups of people. I'm also saying that the importance has been been over-stated.

But try this one by way of contrast. The city formally known as Bombay is now generally known as Mumbai. The name change was proposed and accepted on the basis that Bombay was a legacy of British colonial rule. It has been generally recognised in the English speaking world. Names and changed names can and do sometimes have political and cultural significance. But that isn't always the case.

So if you met an Indian on business who lived and worked in Mumbai, and you called his city Bombay, what would that do? Well, I don't know whether it would cause offence or not, but why take a chance? If he wants his city to be known as Mumbai, why not just respect that? I'd say that's become a common courtesy.

I'm sure you can see the difference.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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