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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Feminism is a complex issue.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I am starting this thread in Purg because I need help and want some informed answers and if possible discussion. Please know I start from an position of considerable ignorance on issues of women’s politics and feminism and have a low threshold for “read this enormous article and all will be clear” being a bit of a monkey brain. Plus it always makes more sense to me when friends explain stuff. Can I also add that I fully support (as far as I understand them) issues of women’s equality within the church and without. Also because of my position and my nature I have to be very careful around women, tbh I have to be careful around everyone. May I also add that (as a human and a pastor) I have no doubt that women are treated in a different way in society from men and that in the majority of those situations the women are tread either worse or abominably worse.
So here are some of my questions?
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
2/ What is some of the thinking about women who use their sexuality to manipulate situations?
3/ Is there any discussion about the role of motherhood in raising what become sexist men?
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
5/ Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means? And so the recent statistic of 15 expulsions a week from English senior schools for sexual bullying seem to imply the battle is being lost?
Again, please forgive me if I am boring, insensitive, or rude. This is not my intention. Thanks for anytime you can give to this.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e.
p.s. I have other questions but I need to go to church now.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
An interesting set of questions for someone, like me, who has never done any gender studies. You're asking us to think about our identity, the sexual part, and the influences that have made us as we are. It's like the proverbial fish that isn't aware of the water it swims in. I'm inclined to question everything I think I know. Those things that everyone knows haven't got a chance.
quote:
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
I don't think they do create an argument, or that they spend time and money on their appearance. Some do spend time and money on their appearance. Perhaps a majority do. Some men spend time and money on their appearance. If you include the time and money that men spend on their cars, sunglasses, watches, briefcases, cycles, sportsgear and magazines about them it may be a similar or greater amount of time and money. Plenty of women wear no make-up and spend little on clothes.
There is a tradition, one of a number, that women will buy and use make-up. It's marketed to them in magazines, and those terrifying zones at the front of department stores. Some women, like those who work in the department stores, are heavy users of make-up, but it's probably not done to attract men, which is the 'official' line, bolstered with pseudo-Darwinian ideas. I suspect it's mainly led by peer pressure and advertising, which is why it is so variable from age group to age group, and in different social and regional areas.
I think, though, that there are subtle and deep factors at work to do with who we are and how we face others. I'm aware of them in relation to questions about whether or not to wear a dog collar, whether to wear a tie or an open-necked shirt. I know there are messages in these choices, but they also make me feel differently about myself.
As with all trends or traditions, there are plenty of people who consciously go the other way. There are people who just don't want to play the game, some who haven't noticed it's going on, and others who make up their own rules or subscribe to a narrow subset - goths would be an example.
I guess you might have the Obama sexist compliment in mind. I think that reveals that there are women who adopt the conventional style of make-up and clothing, probably because it's difficult not to, but who don't buy into the chauvinistic idea that they are making themselves pretty to attract men. We all like compliments, but not ones that reinforce social structures that disadvantage us.
If someone said to me that I had a nice speaking voice, it would be a compliment and probably feel nice, certainly better than someone telling me my voice grated on them, but it would be hard to know how to respond. Is the flatterer interested in me sexually? Are they after something? It would depend on who they were and what motive I discerned. Complicated, though, and I chose this example as about the most neutral compliment I could think of.
Obama's comment could have been a generous impulse born out of friendship, but it could have been heard as reinforcing the idea that women are to be pretty entertainments for men, and anyone hearing it could have objected to that implication, not just the person addressed. More than likely it was just the sort of daft thing someone says when they're scratching around for something to say - here's a microphone, here's an audience, I must talk, oops, where did that come from? Why did I find myself saying the sort of thing a suave man from thirty years ago might say in this situation?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
2/ What is some of the thinking about women who use their sexuality to manipulate situations?
Fly Safe, Pyx_e.
Not sure how big a response you'll get on this one Pyx_e . I guess it's OK for us guys to have a stab at some of this even though we're outside the tent as it were .
1/ I know of a woman who does her hair and face every day, regardless of whether she's going out or not, or indeed whether anyone's going to call or not ,(she's single) . I asked her once as to why and the answer came back 'it makes me feel better'.
Now a feminist may want to argue this is all down to conditioning in formative years . This though does not explain why , as you ask in another question, young women born at the turn of the 21st Century are even more obsessed with their appearance.
2/ My guess on a woman using her sexuality to manipulate situations is down to the individual, and the simple fact that said individual is able to do it if she chooses .
Nature has set things up that way . Just as nature has given the male physical strength that could be , (and sadly has been), used for dubious purposes if he so chooses.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Hatless:
quote:
Obama's comment could have been a generous impulse born out of friendship, but it could have been heard as reinforcing the idea that women are to be pretty entertainments for men, and anyone hearing it could have objected to that implication, not just the person addressed.
I agree with this in part, but it assumes to know the intent of the person who has given the comment. It seems to me that there are people (both men and women) who are out to take offence at certain things and impute a meaning that isn't there because it suits their agenda or temperament. It's a real scourge on western society in many ways.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Personally it's a long, long, long time since I dressed to attract men. But I still enjoy clothes, shoes, handbags, nail varnish, makeup etc. This has nothing whatever to do with men. If I look good, I feel good.
I wouldn't be surprised if (like Rolyn said) I have been conditioned to this - but my Mum was a very plain and practical dresser, so I didn't get it from her.
My 91 year old step-mother in law is the same as me and we always know just what presents to buy each other ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 07. April 2013, 12:15: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
This is the only one I'm going to stick my head above the parapet for, because I think it's the least tricky. The answer is, it's not just women: it works both ways. Some men make very bad choices about which women to enter relationships with. And don't even get me started on us gays!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
They're not confounded. They react according to how comments or looks are presented, whether from men or from women.
quote:
2/ What is some of the thinking about women who use their sexuality to manipulate situations?
It's easy to fall into the habit of employing whatever means we can so that decisions fall our way. This for some, both male and female, will include flirting if they think it will swing a deal. It may not go their way for all manner of reasons. Is it wrong to try? Others may use status, class, wealth, social membership, or a superior intellect to do the same.
quote:
3/ Is there any discussion about the role of motherhood in raising what become sexist men?
Elderly men of my acquaintance were brought up to think of women in a way now considered totally unacceptable. They have not only adapted to the revised thinking of society, they have embraced it. People grow up, and question their parents' attitudes.
quote:
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
I think that where women are insecure they often feel protected by a man who is handy with his fists. Sadly, where the women grew up with a bullying male parent, they're more likely to be insecure and follow the path their mothers took. A man who doesn't stand up for himself strongly including a readiness to fight may be seen as weak and pathetic by some women. Of course, they don't want to be beaten up themselves.
quote:
5/ Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means? And so the recent statistic of 15 expulsions a week from English senior schools for sexual bullying seem to imply the battle is being lost?
Young women often follow fashion. They want to look good and be attractive to boys. They're likely to be naively unaware of the sexual connotations seen by adults in their dress. They are going through a very difficult transition between childhood and adulthood. It's good for us to recall our own feelings and experiences during that time. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Speaking as a woman who started wearing make up regularly relatively late (I was in my thirties) I can tell you why and you will need to bear this in mind. I did it simply so people would stop being able to guess how I was doing by just looking at me. I wanted friends to stop worrying about me. I know I am not alone in this, make-up is in part the smiling face that covers pain/sorrow/illness and worse. In such cases we are using it to conceal not to display. Why women feel the need to do this in the world asks huge questions.
I think the answer of women using sexuality to manipulate situations is simple. It takes two to tango! You may also like to consider how many men are threatened by women who are more logical than they are! Also for women using the alpha-male approach produces very negative results. Have you considered what the male equivalent of a "bossy bitch" is? Given the way other ways to gain control of the situation are limited are you really surprised more women choose to use the acceptable routes.
There is plenty of discussion of motherhood in the raising of boys. Give a quick google for the term Man-child.
Some women make bad choices, so do some men. The thing is that women tend to be more vulnerable at least strength wise.
I am expecting a feminist backlash at some time in the next twenty years when. These will be the grandchildren of women who were first feminist. They will have been born to my generation of women, who thought that the stridency of their mothers from the 1960s was counter productive and a much gentle feminism would work even though it often sexualised women again. Men like to feel sexy, so do women but it is not easy to have that and for men not to read it as a sign that women are something to be possessed.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The questions seem fair enough to this feminist. Of course, feminism is not monolithic. A lot of women who decry feminism take equal pay for equal work, the right to vote and to work etc - for granted. Forgetting that it was feminism, that delivered this, and made it mainstream in our society.
Conversely, some things self identifying feminists would say undermine equality are not seen that way by many women - there were many who saw 'girl power' as empowering - without wondering about the impact of how the spice girls presented themselves, or what their songs defining empowerment in terms of intimate relationships only says about the status of women.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
Firstly, see above. But secondly there is peer pressure and social expectation. In my experience this is not necessarily subtle, depending on where you live, if you don't meet those expectations sometimes people shout abuse at you in the street. This certainly happened to me before and I don't live in a particularly 'rough' area.
The appropriateness of commenting on someone's appearance is dependent on the social context and the nature of your relationship with them. Then there is the effect of history and expectations, the need to be judged by ability and not appearance.
As a man I guess you have your hair cut and either shave or trim your beard to shape. It is bound up with convention and also self-respect, but you would probably find it a little unsettling if your boss made a habit of commenting on it. More so if he/she seemed more interested in your haircut, than your professional suggestions.
But if you became unwell, depressed, or over stressed - you might cease to care enough about yourself to carry on with your normal self-care routines, including in your hair trimming. It could be said you'd lost your self-respect, but that isn't really about the haircut its just an indicator.
quote:
2/ What is some of the thinking about women who use their sexuality to manipulate situations?
Ambition I guess, and it will be dependent on the values you grew up with about this. There is also an argument that it is a counterbalance to the other disadvantages a woman might have in the work place. Personally, I think its wrong and demeaning.
quote:
3/ Is there any discussion about the role of motherhood in raising what become sexist men?
Yup, and sexist women. Happens all the time and all over the world. Culture is a very powerful force.
quote:
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
If people have had poor models of relationships growing up, they tend to struggle with similar issues in adulthood. Again true of both genders. Sub-cultural beliefs and values can feed this, for example, some women appear to think that if a man doesn't behave jealously then he doesn't *really* care. Of course, someone prone to jealousy, is more likely to be controlling in their behaviour towards their partner.
quote:
5/ Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means? And so the recent statistic of 15 expulsions a week from English senior schools for sexual bullying seem to imply the battle is being lost?
Yes, I would agree with that.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Interesting questions! Re:
quote:
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
There is evidence that women raised in a household where domestic violence was normal, will end up married to violent men; indeed that they don't know how to relate to non-violent men. I'm sure there must be a lot of truth in this; most people will consciously or otherwise model their behaviour on that of their parents.
quote:
5/ Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means?
As the mother of a teenage son and daughter, and aunt to other teens, I haven't experienced this myself, but we live in a rural area, which might be different. My almost-17 year old daughter and her circle of friends are more interested in exams / Duke of Edinburgh scheme / future careers / almost anything other than a sexualised body image.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Personally it's a long, long, long time since I dressed to attract men. But I still enjoy clothes, shoes, handbags, nail varnish, makeup etc. This has nothing whatever to do with men. If I look good, I feel good.
It's only as I've gotten older that I've realized the importance of good grooming; I cringe to see photos of myself from my teens and twenties, when I didn't pay much attention to my appearance. (But I somehow managed to attract a husband all the same ![[Biased]](wink.gif) !) But as I approached middle age I realized that having my hair in some semblance of order, a little bit of eyeliner and lipstick, and a tidy reasonably fashionable outfit do wonders for my confidence and my mood, even if no one else sees or notices.
About your question #2, Pyx_e:
quote:
What is some of the thinking about women who use their sexuality to manipulate situations?
I'm no expert, but here are some observations. Some women seem to think (and film, TV, and magazines are perhaps the main teachers) that they are valuable only as far as others find them sexy. And I'm guessing that sexuality is a very powerful tool for manipulation, so if a woman thinks she has no other means to get her way, she'll use it.
So if more girls were taught that it's okay to be smart, and were to have more self-esteem about what's in their heads than what they look and act like, and were taught to respect others as more than merely sexual beings, they might be less likely to try to use their sexuality to manipulate.
Thinking back to when women had no legal standing of their own, couldn't own property, couldn't vote, etc, their very survival would depend on someone else finding them attractive enough to want to take care of them. And we've had barely, what? 150 years at most? to break centuries' worth of habit.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The one that puzzles me, uttered with all the same caveats as Pyx_e's OP, is why anyone does 'Women's Studies'? It seems to me that it is boxing oneself into a very narrow range of career options that don't really lead anywhere.
Also, un-PC though it may be to say this, does it reduce the prospect of having a family by scaring off young men?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The one that puzzles me, uttered with all the same caveats as Pyx_e's OP, is why anyone does 'Women's Studies'? It seems to me that it is boxing oneself into a very narrow range of career options that don't really lead anywhere.
Also, un-PC though it may be to say this, does it reduce the prospect of having a family by scaring off young men?
I would hazard a guess that the sort of young men who would be scared off by a degree in women's studies are precisely those who any self-respecting woman would want to scare off. YMMV.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Also, un-PC though it may be to say this, does it reduce the prospect of having a family by scaring off young men?
Well, logically yes. But then would one want a man who was "sacred off" by any particular stereotype of woman?
But who cares - you're only looking for one anyway.
If I found one (and over 27 years we have successfully built a functional family unit with children and pets) then anyone can!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Also, un-PC though it may be to say this, does it reduce the prospect of having a family by scaring off young men?
You think young men are attracted or put off by the type of degree young women are studying for?
It must have been a looong time for you Enoch!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
First of all, feminism is a movement not a single issue and there are probably (almost) as many branches of feminism as there are of socialism.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
1/ I know of a woman who does her hair and face every day, regardless of whether she's going out or not, or indeed whether anyone's going to call or not ,(she's single) . I asked her once as to why and the answer came back 'it makes me feel better'.
Now a feminist may want to argue this is all down to conditioning in formative years . This though does not explain why , as you ask in another question, young women born at the turn of the 21st Century are even more obsessed with their appearance.
Because feminism is in retreat, partly because people think that we have equality now and don't need it, but equal pay for work of equal value is only one issue of interest to feminists. (In other words, what Doublethink said)
quote:
2/ My guess on a woman using her sexuality to manipulate situations is down to the individual, and the simple fact that said individual is able to do it if she chooses.
Nature has set things up that way. Just as nature has given the male physical strength that could be, (and sadly has been), used for dubious purposes if he so chooses.
You are asserting as facts things that are highly contentious matters of opinion. Nature does not make people manipulative. Being manipulative is a device of the (relatively) powerless against the (relatively) powerful. Women who consciously choose to use their sexuality to manipulate others are not feminists – though some claim to be. Feminism is – or should be, IMHO - about addressing inequalities of power so that people can relate to each other as adults.
3/ Yes, there is discussion. People have different ideas about what is 'natural' in terms of male-female power relations. Some women who do well out of the current system have no reason to invest in changing things, some don't know how to change things and some would like to, but can't fight the peer pressure.
4/ People make bad choices about all kinds of things: food, alcohol and sex being among the most obvious. As others have said, some are repeating the only patterns they know; some are self-destructive for other reasons. However, I would add that this society is obsessed with a dysfunctional idea of Romantic Love.
5/ Yes, and yes. But it takes two to tango and it's not just the young women who get in deeper than they know before realising - don't you think that a lot of young men posture and boast without really knowing what they are doing?
The battle is being lost ..... but not the war.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Not a woman. Father to adult women. Unless you're an awful father, being father to women will make you feminist, in the sense of concern for rights and for equality.
The short answer to the series of questions, all at once is 'biology and socialization'. Neither can be ignored. In my lifetime, we've been progressively dismantling the sexist socialization, but I think it is very slow. Perhaps generations.
Some additional observations. There is data out there showing that women are higher achievers, win more academic awards etc, that girls mature sooner, that women are pretty much better at everything. Except for the physical strength and stamina related things. Many men spend a lot of their lives trying to assert their pseudo superiority. I see clear an definite change since I was young, but it's just not enough.
I worry about girls' and women's self esteem and confidence, both those in my family (I have daughters and mostly nieces) and those I see professionally. I think every women needs to be prepared to use her knee and her left hook, both in the physical sense and in the metaphorical sense with words.
I thoroughly disagree about wars and battles being lost. The changes in the past half century of my awareness of it (in my 6th decade of life) are immense. My wife would not be a university dept head in our parents' day. My children would not be purusing professional training beyond teacher and nurse (the only real professions open to women in the 1950s and 60s) and their certainly would not an AG for Obama to comment about inappropriately.
[ 07. April 2013, 14:17: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
setting aside the obvious (not all women do this) let me suggest two things:
• women relate to a lot of different people on any given day in a lot of different ways, but they have only one face to do that with. They may be having lunch with their spouse/lover/crush and, indeed, hope they will notice how attractive she is and even comment on it. But in the same workday they will be engaging colleagues, clients, etc. in the workplace, and would hope these people would recognize that she is more than just a face (or body). She may be attractive, but it would be nice if men could also notice that she is smart, competent, accomplished, especially in a work environment.
• speaking as a middle-aged rather frumpy woman, make-up seems necessary just to level the playing field. While young attractive women receive perhaps an undue amount of attention (some wanted, some not), older unattractive women in our society are pretty much invisible. Some degree of make-up/ styling is sadly necessary even to have a voice in the workplace/society that is roughly equal to that of men, who seem to be heard whether they are fat or thin, attractive or ugly.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
2/ What is some of the thinking about women who use their sexuality to manipulate situations?
First, I would wonder how much of what you're describing is overt, intentional "manipulation" and how much of it is an attractive young woman operating in the world, taking advantage of the opportunities provided her. Which is smart, especially given the fact that they'll evaporate with shocking speed as she ages (see above). Some women, I suppose, do "manipulate" with their sexuality intentionally. That could be seen as simply a sign of our fallen nature-- all of us are jerks sometime-- or again, a way to level an unlevel playing field.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
3/ Is there any discussion about the role of motherhood in raising what become sexist men?
yes. Quite a bit, actually.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
I don't know what you mean by "grooming" here, but yes, people-- both male and female-- make bad choices all the time, and we all tend to repeat the same bad choices-- in relationships, in business, in all sorts of areas. All of sorts of psychological factors behind that. There are some good (and some really awful) books written about that, but as you've requested not to have those sorts of referrals, suffice it to say there are all sorts of family-of-origin reasons for such.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
5/ Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means? And so the recent statistic of 15 expulsions a week from English senior schools for sexual bullying seem to imply the battle is being lost?
I would not say "large numbers"-- some. Young women are... young. By definition, immature. They make mistakes. They can be ignorant. That immaturity/ignorance should not make them subject to sexual bullying.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The one that puzzles me, uttered with all the same caveats as Pyx_e's OP, is why anyone does 'Women's Studies'? It seems to me that it is boxing oneself into a very narrow range of career options that don't really lead anywhere.
Also, un-PC though it may be to say this, does it reduce the prospect of having a family by scaring off young men?
My M.Litt is in Women's Studies. It led into my PhD which is in history, and which has a strong gender bias. ("Could women in use education and careers as a means of upward social mobility in mid to late Victorian Scotland?") It's no narrower than any other PhD in history. I was already married with children, so no issue there. In fact we were almost all mature students; the only single student was male and I don't think he's particularly in the market for a husband and children.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
My M.Litt is in Women's Studies. It led into my PhD which is in history, and which has a strong gender bias. ("Could women in use education and careers as a means of upward social mobility in mid to late Victorian Scotland?") It's no narrower than any other PhD in history. I was already married with children, so no issue there. In fact we were almost all mature students; the only single student was male and I don't think he's particularly in the market for a husband and children.
Thank you. The other responses to my post all homed in on the bit that was a bit of an aside rather than the bit I was hoping for a response to. What you've said is interesting, as I'd somehow thought you were a lawyer.
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib ... Being manipulative is a device of the (relatively) powerless against the (relatively) powerful. ...
To put it politely, b****cks. I've encountered plenty of powerful people of both sexes who have been highly manipulative.
[ 07. April 2013, 16:13: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
The problem is in the nature of the notice. An admiring look is one thing. A lustful appraisal is another.
quote:
This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
My husband and I raised two daughters. Each, at about the age of ten, developed a crush on a man in his late teens or early twenties. Both young men were very fine in every respect. My husband and I found it very reassuring that they had such good taste in men.
My husband and I loved and respected each other; we were partners. I think my daughters were interested in men who would treat women that way.
In contrast, I had a friend with two failed marriages. The first husband was a domestic tyrant who hit her because he wanted her to stop breast-feeding their baby. The second husband was the most irresponsible man I have ever met. She told me once that she didn't think she deserved a good husband.
quote:
Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means?
It is true. The problem, as I see it, is that the media give teenagers the idea that the most important thing about them is their appearance and sexuality. Their parents and teachers do not do enough to counteract these messages.
When my daughters were teenagers, I spoke freely about relating to boys. As far as clothing was concerned, I told them to dress attractively, but not very revealingly. I pointed out that if they attracted boys they didn't like, it could be a nuisance getting rid of them. I gave a few examples from my own experience. I told them to decide which boys they liked and to flirt only with those boys. I have the impression that most girls do not get the type of advice I gave my daughters.
They are now both happily married to good men.
I'm sorry to be patting myself on the back this way, but I think that raising them was the best accomplishment of my life.
moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
I must admit that I don't spend any time or money on my appearance but in my innocence I still think men might notice me for things beyond make-up and grooming. As far as the Obama quote goes, as a feminist I wouldn't have been offended. It was a bit of a clunker but I can't see how it's worse than a woman commenting on a man's muscles etc.
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
I'm only answering this one to say that as a woman I have no idea! Macho men scare me. I would run a mile from any hint of aggression. It's nerds all the way for me!
5/ Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means? And so the recent statistic of 15 expulsions a week from English senior schools for sexual bullying seem to imply the battle is being lost?
Yes and yes. It's very sad to see women now enslaving themselves to a different set of rules. Instead of being chained to the house and kitchen they are chained to the tyranny of looking good and being sexual sirens. And all the while men carry on pretty much as they always have. In other words it's still women who are making all the running, chasing after some unattainable acme of perfection.
The reasons for this seem obscure, except of course that society is now saturated with the concept that good looks and a hefty dose of sexuality could well bring money and power. The sad thing about that is that it's men from whom many young girls hope to get those things, rather than through any real work or strength of their own. True feminism is in its death throes, it seems to me.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I was a lawyer. In fact, technically I still am, as my name is still on the Roll of Solicitors of Scotland, but I stopped practising years ago, and only desperation would force me back to it!
The M.Litt in Women's Studies happened almost accidentally; all the history modules I chose were gender based, and I came out with a Women's Studies degree rather than the history one I had intended. However, Women's History is my passion and endless fascination!
(ETA - replying to Enoch.)
[ 07. April 2013, 16:57: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
... Being manipulative is a device of the (relatively) powerless against the (relatively) powerful. ...
To put it politely, b****cks. I've encountered plenty of powerful people of both sexes who have been highly manipulative.
Yes, because being manipulative - always supposing you have something to manipulate - gives you power. If people who already seem to be powerful - people at the top of a hierarchy, for example - are also manipulative there are various possible explanations:- That's how they got there and that's how they intend to stay there
- They think naked use of power is ugly and unattractive, so they prefer something more underhand
- Power is like money - you can never have enough. You may be a CEO but if Employee X responds to an order with "F*** your job - I'd rather clean the streets with my tongue than work for you for one more second" then you still don't have enough power - you have to find a way to make employee X compliant.
However, in the field of sexual politics, being manipulative is what (some) women do to get their own way. Some of the biggest anti-feminists are the women who say: Why should I be a feminist when I can already get the men in my life to do what I want anyway? And the answer to that is that feminism is not about greedy, selfish people of either sex getting their own way - although that is, of course, exactly how some people want to present it.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
@Enoch:
Have you considered the possibility that it's through manipulation these folk acquired their power, rather than the other way around?
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
1/ How do women create a argument for spending a considerable amount of time and money on their appearance and then be confounded when men notice?
As noted above, they're not necessarily confounded.
I am surprised that no-one's mentioned advertising, and would suggest that a review of any of Jean Kilbourne's Killing Us Softly videos would be relevant by way of response. Of course, women are not the sole targets of advertising, most of which is carefully-calculated to motivate viewers to buy products designed to restore confidence in what the advertising itself undermines. "You smell bad -- buy X to cover it up! Your breath stinks -- buy X! You're getting wrinkles -- buy X to hide them! Your (list anatomical feature of choice here) is too (Choose one of the following: big, small, wide, narrow hairy, smooth, soft, firm, pale, dark, etc.) -- buy X to fix this devastating flaw which is ruining (A) your chances of romantic connection; (B) keeping your partner interested; (C) your ability to get hired/promoted/married/dated etc. etc. etc.
Most of us think we're immune to advertising. We're not. A book called Thirty Seconds by Michael J. Arlen -- came out maybe 30 years ago) reveals the kind of intensive research into the human psyche which goes into the tiniest details of advertising wording and imagery.
In my tiny experience of teaching at a junior college, I asked students in a soc class one night about whether advertising influenced their clothing choices. They all said no. Then I asked those students who were wearing brand names or logos on their clothing to stand up. The entire class stood. Personally, one of my objectives when I shop for clothes is to avoid logos and brand names. If companies want me to do their advertising for them, they can damn well pay me.
Where I live, women in professional situations (outside of Big Business, which tends to be more conservative) mostly wear no make-up or so little as to render it difficult-to-detect. I have not worn make-up in years. The female nurses, shrinks, therapists, and academics I connect with generally go without any (or obvious) make-up. This is in a small city in New England; norms may vary elsewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
2/ What is some of the thinking about women who use their sexuality to manipulate situations?
Yeah, this happens. For this feminist, such behavior spells trouble – a sort of “class traitor,” as it were. And it speaks volumes about her own low estimates of her other abilities.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
3/ Is there any discussion about the role of motherhood in raising what become sexist men?
The question itself – sorry, Pyx_e – seems sexist to me. How often is a child’s mother the sole influence operating in that child’s life? Unless you’ve got a single mom rearing her offspring in a cave on a desert island somewhere, untouched by the rest of human society, boys (like girls) are also being brought up by the other parents they encounter through their friends, their teachers, and even their peers’ ideas about masculinity, femininity, and general behavioral expectations and limits.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
4/ This is a real tricky one: While I have no scientific evidence I have thirty years of experience that suggests some women will seemingly deliberately make bad choices when it comes to the men in their lives. Some of that is I think because of what could be described as grooming but some really sensible women seem set on choosing violent bullies, why?
May be different where you are, but where I am, it’s like this:
(1) Women still earn roughly 76 cents for every dollar a man earns (varies a lot state-to-state).
(2) Women outnumber men, in proportions that increase with each decade of life (despite 105 boys being born to every 100 girls). Males are apparently both more vulnerable, health-wise, and more daring in behavior, so they get killed off more rapidly than their female counterparts.
(3) Women therefore often settle (because they feel they MUST settle) for a far-from-ideal mate for reasons of sheer economic survival.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
5/ Is it fair to suggest that seemingly a large proportion of young women are fixated on body image and portraying themselves as sexual beings while having no idea of what that means? And so the recent statistic of 15 expulsions a week from English senior schools for sexual bullying seem to imply the battle is being lost?
I suspect there’s still a largely unconscious perception, on the part of males, to view women’s advances in education, traditionally male professions, in economic security if not yet equality, as encroaching on male turf. I think the last two election cycles in the US show this, with white middle-class men becoming increasingly angry at what many may unconsciously see as a deep erosion of their power, privileges, and “rights.”
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
My work situation is rather informal, and it's quite common for me to compliment women colleagues with a new haircut or different clothes. Usually it is quite clear that I have no further intentions behind this, or at least I hope so.
When does this cross the line of being sexist?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
My work situation is rather informal, and it's quite common for me to compliment women colleagues with a new haircut or different clothes. Usually it is quite clear that I have no further intentions behind this, or at least I hope so.
When does this cross the line of being sexist?
When you don't do the same with male colleagues?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Would you comment on a male colleague who has a haircut, a new shirt or had taken extra care with their appearance?
It may be that you need to change your attitude to male colleagues rather than female ones as well.
It is that simple, really.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Usually it is quite clear that I have no further intentions behind this, or at least I hope so.
When does this cross the line of being sexist?
(Italics mine)
Right there, where the italics are. Intentions you hope are clear probably aren't. Women and men are still acculturated rather differently and have different experiences and expectations, so unless you ask, there's no way for you to know how these women are "hearing" your "compliments."
If the women are polite, they may thank you; I might do the same, because it's just not worth the time and trouble it takes to stop and explain to every guy who makes these comments, "Look, you sexist moron, what makes you think I've cut my hair/worn this blouse/bought these shoes to attract your notice, and where do you get off assuming I have? Mind your own business!"
And if you DO ask about the clarity of your intentions, you'll find yourself in creepster territory pretty damn quick. That should offer you a clue.
And what Boogie and Jengie John said.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I agree very much with the last few posts.
I would add that it can be complicated by the complexities of interpersonal relationships, cross-purpose messaging by society and our own internal inconsistencies.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I presume a hetero-male isn't going to compliment a fellow male on his appearance because there isn't anything sexual going on . This therefore brings us to the nub of the debate .
So can we males have , from the females, a clear and unequivocal 'we do not wish to receive any verbal compliments from men' ?
And if the answer is a unanimous "Yes", then can we confirm if this just applies to the workplace, or all other places as well . That way both sexes will know where they are , and we'll clear up a whole heap of misunderstanding into the bargain.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Boogie:When you don't do the same with male colleagues?
I do sometimes ('Hey, cool shirt!'), although I admit it is much rarer. Maybe it's because I notice it a bit less in a man. Or more probably, the men in my profession are usually quite badly dressed.
quote:
Porridge: Intentions you hope are clear probably aren't. Women and men are still acculturated rather differently and have different experiences and expectations, so unless you ask, there's no way for you to know how these women are "hearing" your "compliments."
But that's part of human communication, isn't it? When I'm communicating with another human being, I can never be sure how the other people is 'hearing' what I'm saying.
But maybe up to a point we should just accept that? Am I only allowed to communicate with another person if there is no possible way they can receive my message in a wrong way?
quote:
Porridge: If the women are polite, they may thank you
Women usually thank me when I give them a compliment. But couldn't this just mean "How nice and sympathetic of LeRoc to notice, I'll accept this compliment of a fellow human being"?
Sometimes I feel that I'm very much in a catch-22 here. Don't notice a woman's new haircut, and you're being insensitive (yes, I've been told that at times.) Notice her new haircut, and you're being sexist. (Somehow, I never seem to have this problem with men, either gay or straight.)
Why can't there be room for a normal, well-meant compliment between people?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I presume a hetero-male isn't going to compliment a fellow male on his appearance because there isn't anything sexual going on . This therefore brings us to the nub of the debate .
So can we males have , from the females, a clear and unequivocal 'we do not wish to receive any verbal compliments from men' ?
And if the answer is a unanimous "Yes", then can we confirm if this just applies to the workplace, or all other places as well . That way both sexes will know where they are , and we'll clear up a whole heap of misunderstanding into the bargain.
Oh, dear heart, I'm afraid not. Are all men alike? Not in this mid-life woman's experience. Are all women alike? Not in this woman's experience.
One of the most insidious aspects of sexism is, I'm afraid, the assumption behind questions like, "What do women (or men, for that matter)want?"
Surprise! We all want different things! If people could please just start from the basis, "Here's a human; I wonder what this human's like," instead of from the basis, "Here are women/men; I wonder what women/men are like," the world would instantly be a better place.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
One of the most insidious aspects of sexism is, I'm afraid, the assumption behind questions like, "What do women (or men, for that matter)want?"
'What women want' is pretty much what the feminist movement is banging on about most of the time isn't it ? Which by your statement makes it a sexist organisation.
Equal pay ,rights and conditions fair enough . All this other stuff is creating rancour between the sexes IMO .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I'm surprised we've got this far without the use of the word 'Patriarchy'. It's the patriarchial nature of society that is at the root of a lot of Pyx_e's questions. As we grow up we are influenced by the society around us, consciously and unconsciously. Now, despite the gains of feminism we are still in a patriarchal society. It works for the good of a small subset of males.* Females are still primarily valued for appearance and entertaining males. Though women can do most jobs that men do, they are still expected to look beautiful while doing it. A A Gill's attack on Mary Beard 'as too ugly to be on telly' demonstrates this as does the fact that older men still present the news etc but their female contemporaries are fast disappearing. Following the @everydaysexism feed on Twitter reveals a huge level of objectifying comments and sexual assault going on in our society today. And looking at the wall of pink in marketing to girls, I get the impression that gender norms are being more strongly promoted today than when I was young 30 years ago.
Women often spend a lot and time and effort on their appearance because that's what's expected of them (and some because they enjoy it). But that doesn't give men the right to think that therefore that woman must want to sleep with him. Dressing well doesn't mean you want to be wolf whistled when you walk down the street.
Young women today are worried about body image and that has a lot to do with the images and messages with which they are bombarded all day long. It's not a conscious choice to be obsessed with it, but they are measured by their appearance all the time, to a far greater extent than boys -- though pressure is growing there too.
And yes women do make bad choices about men, but again these are not free choices, but influenced by experiences and society. Women who grew up with abuse are probably more likely to end up with an abuser, but that's not always the case. And the thing is the abuser often presents as charming and caring and often that is the face the world sees (so friends don't believe he's an abuser) and gradually increases his control and demands and undermines her self-esteem and isolates her from her friends. It's not one big 'wrong choice' but a series of little choices. But it's not the woman's fault that she is abused. It is the fault of the abuser.
Carys
*I'm not saying all men oppress women, in fact patriarchy distorts men's choices and oppresses them in many ways.
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Boogie:When you don't do the same with male colleagues?
I do sometimes ('Hey, cool shirt!'), although I admit it is much rarer. Maybe it's because I notice it a bit less in a man. Or more probably, the men in my profession are usually quite badly dressed.
You notice it less in a man, because society trains you to notice it less in a man. Men can get away with being badly dressed in a way that women can't.
A lot of this is to do with context and tone. A quick remark on a new item of clothing, haircut etc is one thing; your appearance being commented on rather than the quality of your work is another. Complimenting someone on their new haircut during a tea break is different from doing it in the middle of an important business meeting. And there's a difference between 'you look nice' and 'I want to have sex with you'.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Carys: Though women can do most jobs that men do, they are still expected to look beautiful while doing it.
But does this rule out saying to a co-worker "Hey, you've got a new haircut, I like it"? Especially, when you're working in a setting that's already quite informal.
I compliment people (men and women) on other stuff as well, about things they do at work, or even about interesting things about their private lives. ('That's an interesting hobby you have.')
When I compliment someone on how they look, it doesn't mean "I only judge you on your appearance, and BTW I want to shag you right now." Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. And I wouldn't do it upon meeting people the first time, I'd like to make sure that we understand eachother's communication styles first.
It's a spontaneous thing, I don't go around counting if I compliment men the same number of times as women. It's just a thing I do because I like to be friendly among other people.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(I think there was a crosspost going on here. Carys already addressed most of my points.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Boogie:When you don't do the same with male colleagues?
I do sometimes ('Hey, cool shirt!'), although I admit it is much rarer. Maybe it's because I notice it a bit less in a man.
So where are these well-meant compliments coming from? Why are you delivering them, and primarily to women? If you're a hetero male, what's the aim in the workplace of commenting on a colleague's appearance at all? This will depend on the relationship and the context.
1. Do you socialize with the person outside of work?
2. Are you equals within the workplace?
3. Can one of you influence the work standing or work load or wages of the other?
quote:
Porridge: Intentions you hope are clear probably aren't. Women and men are still acculturated rather differently and have different experiences and expectations, so unless you ask, there's no way for you to know how these women are "hearing" your "compliments."
But that's part of human communication, isn't it? When I'm communicating with another human being, I can never be sure how the other people is 'hearing' what I'm saying.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Depends. How well do you know the person, and in how many different contexts? What kind of history have you got? Most of us are pretty good at "getting" people we know well. The point, though, is to avoid ambiguity or uncertainty where it's easily avoidable. Is it usual and customary in this work setting to compliment colleagues on their appearance? Must you offer this kind of compliment instead of, say, complimenting the colleague on her work -- something which probably can't be interpreted to anyone's discredit?
Every work place develops its own culture. In some cases, it's a sexist culture.
quote:
Porridge: If the women are polite, they may thank you
Women usually thank me when I give them a compliment. But couldn't this just mean "How nice and sympathetic of LeRoc to notice, I'll accept this compliment of a fellow human being"?[/QB][/QUOTE]
Of course it could mean that, but it could also mean entirely different things to the two parties to the conversation -- and that's the issue here. It not only could, it often does.
I had my hair cut Friday March 29. The following Monday at work, two male colleagues, two male staffers, and three male clients offered compliments on my haircut, and when I went out for drinks with a friend that evening, got two more comments from two more men, complete strangers to me. The reality is that this eats up MY time, diverts MY attention from where it needs to be -- on my work or my friend -- and is actually a demand, on the part of these men, for MY attention. "I'm noticing you -- notice me back!" The second compliment from a total stranger caused us to leave the bar and go to my friend's house instead, and we both wanted to smack the guy.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Sometimes I feel that I'm very much in a catch-22 here. Don't notice a woman's new haircut, and you're being insensitive (yes, I've been told that at times.) Notice her new haircut, and you're being sexist. (Somehow, I never seem to have this problem with men, either gay or straight.)
Why can't there be room for a normal, well-meant compliment between people?
Context, context, context. Don't notice the new haircut of your wife or girlfriend, bad. Do notice the new haircut of your colleague's secretary hired last month, all bets are off.
My own rule for workplace compliments is this: compliment people on their work, their effort, or their ideas, never on appearances.
Outside of work, appearance compliments are for intimates only. Generally, all compliments boil down to judgments, and must be handled with tact and care.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I compliment people (men and women) on other stuff as well, about things they do at work, or even about interesting things about their private lives. ('That's an interesting hobby you have.')
When I compliment someone on how they look, it doesn't mean "I only judge you on your appearance, and BTW I want to shag you right now." Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. And I wouldn't do it upon meeting people the first time, I'd like to make sure that we understand eachother's communication styles first.
It's a spontaneous thing, I don't go around counting if I compliment men the same number of times as women. It's just a thing I do because I like to be friendly among other people.
Well, to me it all sounds deeply, deeply creepy - but, in the end, only you can judge what your work culture is like, and whether things can be accepted in a spirit of friendliness and mutual respect. Though, if you're so sure it's Ok, why did you ask?
In my place of work I would only expect a comment from straight blokes about my hair if I did something really, really noticeable - cut short and dyed green, maybe - and even then, the most I would expect is "Have you had your hair cut, or something? Oh, it looks... um... er... Ok....nice . I would never ever expect a comment on my clothes except in a mutual piss-taking session.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Let me take as an example a co-worker I gave a compliment last week.
1. Do you socialize with the person outside of work?
Occasionally, but only when there are more colleagues present.
2. Are you equals within the workplace?
I guess so. If anything, she would be a little above me. (The organization I work for is quite complex.) But we treat eachother as equals.
3. Can one of you influence the work standing or work load or wages of the other?
In a way. Sometimes I need her to do something for me, sometimes she needs something from me. But in any case, we would have to ask eachother. We couldn't order eachother to do something.
quote:
Porridge: So where are these well-meant compliments coming from?
Like I said, I just want to be nice. When I see something positive about another person, I like to give a compliment about it.
I agree with you that context is important. Like I said, my work setting is quite informal. For example, it is quite common for people to speak about their private lives.
Is it common for my colleagues to give compliments? Not for all of them. Some of them are quite daft and wouldn't give a compliment if someone won the Nobel prize. But some of them would.
And like I said, I don't just give compliments on people's appearance, I give compliments about their work as well. (Probably more often but like I said, I'm not counting.)
quote:
QLib: Though, if you're so sure it's Ok, why did you ask?
Because there seems to be a definite 'never compliment a woman on her appearance' vibe on this thread. I'm not sure if I agree with it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
... there seems to be a definite 'never compliment a woman on her appearance' vibe on this thread. I'm not sure if I agree with it.
I think the vibe is: it is rarely appropriate, in a professional context, to compliment a woman on her appearance. But as someone said above, context is everything.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Outside of work, appearance compliments are for intimates only. Generally, all compliments boil down to judgments, and must be handled with tact and care.
What utter nonsense!
I complement people (male and female) on their appearance often. If I notice someone's clothes/hair/shoes/whatever and I like them I say so. No, I don't want anything back - the compliment is to (hopefully) make them feel good, not me.
Being a loud ADDer I tend to blurt it loudly - but I must say I only get smiles and thanks in return. I am genuine in my compliments and folk know it.
I imagine I'd get nasty scowls if I met someone who thought compliments about appearance were for 'intimates' only!
[ 07. April 2013, 21:28: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
QLib: I think the vibe is: it is rarely appropriate, in a professional context, to compliment a woman on her appearance. But as someone said above, context is everything.
I agree. Perhaps I am in a 'rare' work situation then? I've been feeling different vibes on this thread as well, but I guess that's ok.
quote:
Boogie: I complement people (male and female) on their appearance often. If I notice someone's clothes/hair/shoes/whatever and I like them I say so. No, I don't want anything back - the compliment is to (hopefully) make them feel good, not me.
Being a loud ADDer I tend to blurt it loudly - but I must say I only get smiles and thanks in return. I am genuine in my compliments and folk know it.
I don't think that I'm an ADDer, but in other ways I guess I'm a lot like this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
One of the most insidious aspects of sexism is, I'm afraid, the assumption behind questions like, "What do women (or men, for that matter)want?"
'What women want' is pretty much what the feminist movement is banging on about most of the time isn't it ? Which by your statement makes it a sexist organisation.
Equal pay ,rights and conditions fair enough . All this other stuff is creating rancour between the sexes IMO .
"all this other stuff" is just a variation on Porridge's theme: women (and men) want the freedom to be individuals, with all that that implies-- different motives, agenda, taste, ideals, etc. Some of us are mean or manipulative, some of us are generous and kind, most of us a bit of both. "Us" being men and women.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I've shown Pyxe's questions to young Miss Tor, because she was interested in what I was reading, and I was interested in her responses: the most pertinent for her were 1 and 5, as she's still at school.
For 1, she opined that the fashion and make-up thing isn't directed at men, but other women. It shows what sort of social group you are (or aspire to be), and therefore is an outward sign to your peer group. I countered with the notion that women are competing with each other for the attention of men, and she conceded that does happen in her group, but that only for a certain sort of boy.
For 5, she denied that the group fixated on body image was large: she said it was actually quite small. I suggested it was a perfectly reasonable assumption (for a man) to make, because when I push the trolley around the supermarket, the womens' magazines revolve around 3 subjects: sex, clothes and diets. As to the portraying themselves as 'sexual beings', she said that not so much her year, but when girls turn 16 and sex is legal, there's much more pressure to 'do it'.
(As a side note, I'm astounded that I can have this sort of conversation with my daughter. Clearly done something right...)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
My own rule for workplace compliments is this: compliment people on their work, their effort, or their ideas, never on appearances.
My general rule is compliments on work, effort and ideas primarily. Appearance comments are sporadic and only to those I feel comfortable with their understanding and reception. Mostly I observe how they deal with compliments from others. I also try to take into consideration the general culture of the workplace. The sporadic is because this is not typically an issue as I rarely notice unless a major change is made. Then, sometimes, I may not notice for a significant period of time.
ETA: Applause to you, Doc Tor. That is highly commendable.
[ 08. April 2013, 04:29: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
My own rule for workplace compliments is this: compliment people on their work, their effort, or their ideas, never on appearances.
My general rule is compliments on work, effort and ideas primarily. Appearance comments are sporadic and only to those I feel comfortable with their understanding and reception.
Yes. YES! Totally! It's just common sense!
I mean, heck, I've given personal compliments to guys at work, but first I feel out whether they give a shit about my opinion.
[ 08. April 2013, 04:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
My own rule for workplace compliments is this: compliment people on their work, their effort, or their ideas, never on appearances.
I comment on colleagues' appearance if they're dressier than usual - because they're probably going to an interview / funeral / meeting some bigwig, and I have commented when colleagues (of both sexes) made a dramatic alteration in hair length or facial hair.
But these are more comments than compliments.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I've shown Pyxe's questions to young Miss Tor, because she was For 1, she opined that the fashion and make-up thing isn't directed at men, but other women.
This is commonly accepted as being the case by marketing experts, with research to back it up - at least according to a friend of mine with the appropriate qualifications.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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