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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Canadian Politics: The Liberals vs. the NDP
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The AS thread got heated and Wrodders kicked us out, here's the promised Purg thread.
The tangent started here.
To summarize: no, the NDP did not renounce socialism, I was there on the floor and voted on it all. Bill Blaikie gave a rousing speech in support of the amendment. The fact that the media believes this is hype, but possibly useful hype.
Justin Trudeau, young? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
And then Augustine quotes polling, I ask the obvious question (paid for by whom?), make the obvious link that it was Liberal-aimed polling (Augustine is a Liberal, as he says on the thread) and then Augustine vigorously disagrees, which level of heat brought us here.
I cannot help but think that if the NDP had elected a 30-year old, the Liberals would attack us as the party of the Young and Inexperienced led by the Young and Inexperienced. As we are a party of much youth led by an experienced leader, vs. the Liberals as the party of the old led by a youngish-looking man, the NDP would get attacked either way so we may as well just be who we are.
[ 18. April 2013, 20:31: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I cannot help but think that if the NDP had elected a 30-year old, the Liberals would attack us as the party of the Young and Inexperienced led by the Young and Inexperienced.
Remember this ad? The Liberals dissing Jack Layton as a "career politician".
Of course, with Ignatieff as leader for that election, the Libs were pretty much immune from blowback on that issue. But you'd have to have a pretty short memory to think that the party of John Turner, Jean Chretien and Paul Martin had any principled objection to career politicians.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Justin Trudeau, young?
Yeah, if he becomes PM, he'll be several years older than Joe Clark was when he was elected. But Clark is one of those guys who always seemed older than he was, and Trudeau one of those guys who seems younger.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Justin Trudeau, young?
Yeah, if he becomes PM, he'll be several years older than Joe Clark was when he was elected. But Clark is one of those guys who always seemed older than he was, and Trudeau one of those guys who seems younger.
I think it's a Hot or Not issue.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
What SPK is not quite bringing up is his assertion that Trudeau "must pay a political price" for saying something.
Couple this with the thread title "vs", I'm beginning to think the grumpiness of Mulcair is being fed into the water at NDP meetings.
I'm no Liberal, or NDP or Tory. Just would prefer a debate on issues as against all these machinations. Canadians don't really care.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I have to say that I was rather surprised at the hostility that SPK used in setting up the tangent.
Was it absolutely necessary to turn a discussion into a slanging match before it has even started?
Really quite a lot of Canadians are tired of all the years of Harper mudslinging. If the NDP has to turn to overt hostility this quickly, then they will fade from public view rather quickly - or is it just a personal thing?
NONE of the leaders are absolute paragons of virtue, but ISTM that Trudeau has produced a more pleasant attitude than most. We need a bit of positivity to encourage us to even think about voting.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I just forgot that part, Og. I stand by it, though. Mr. Trudeau engaged in an egregious example of tribal identity politics and deserves be called out for it. Mr. Trudeau's attitude is not something that can be tolerated from any Federal leader at any time. It is as bad as a federal leade, or prosepctive federal leader asserting that he doesn't have to speak French. That's why Robert Chisholm of the NDP withdrew early.
Bree:
I had just come back from a Tribal War Council/Family Reunion/Religious Revival Meeting. You expect me to be in low spirits?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Maybe not, but outright hostility won't play well if it continues. The NDP has basically no chance in the Maritimes except for parts of Halifax, maybe once-industrial Cape Breton and the truly-honourable Yvon Godin of Bathurst. Sounding like Tories won't help.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I am close to a hell call-- I have never done one in years on the ship and I am darn close. I am going to make one statement and then cease to address this further.
First, owing to my former RL position, I was morally if not formally obliged to not be active in politics-- my last membership expired in 1986. Not that it's anybody's business, but I have voted for both Liberal and NDP candidates in the years since, and tax receipts from candidates from both parties figure in my tax returns.
About the polling-- I am not obliged to name the three sources, but allow me to note that none of them are Liberal party or, to my knowledge, poll for them. One is a commercial firm, which does not, AFAIK, contract or supply information to the Liberals. My contact, who consults with me, is a non-practising NDP (the firm requires that its staff not be active). The second is an international group, for which polling is a sideline-- their main income comes from foreign firms. The third is an NGO which receives much public funding from at least three Canadian governments-- of the staff I know, they have varying political connexions. All of the NGO's material is publically available. All three entitities have staff who find my opinion worth a cup of coffee and a decent pastry. Once I got lunch. I may get lunch again in two weeks' time.
As far as my references to the McGill team go, although I may be wrong I do not recall having ever referred to their cuteness, as SPK's comments suggest. Again, I am not required to out my personal connexions, but one I know through an NGO she saved through her sharpness and energy--- at the time, well before she went into Parliament, I marked her out as a person of great capacity. The other I know through a social and cultural link-- I have followed her interpellations in House committees and have quite enjoyed how she has skewered ministers and public servants in a way which many her senior seem incapable of doing. I really do resent SPK's inference on this one. I have long tried to give credit where it is deserved, and withhold when I feel it is not. The only good result, IMHO, about the last election, was the cohort of young NDP members from Québec-- I hope that many of them are returned at the next election.
Why anyone would find the mewling babe reference an attack is quite beyond me. We were all once mewling babes. Over half a century ago, I was a mewling babe in a pharmacist's house. It is a Shakespearean reference and if, in 1985, the year in which I last was formally involved, SPK was anything but a mewling babe in a manse, I retract the statement.
I am well aware that politics has rough edges. I do not think it healthy and I will never get used to it-- the minister for whom I worked in the Trudeau years told me that my distaste for it was one of the reasons he wanted me on staff. I find the rough edge unacceptable and I have declined to participate in it for many years now. I am pleased to say this. Should I ever get into the rough edges, I ask my friends (and anyone else) to call me out on it.
I do not want to continue this discussion further, but I feel that my bona fides were called into question and I needed to respond.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
That's what they said in Quebec. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Further, the Party is very strong in Nova Scotia. There is an NDP Provincial Government there. There's no such thing as Federal or Provincial membership in the NDP, we're one party with one membership list and 14 Sections. All those Nova Scotia members are in our databases for the Federal campaign.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
To be clear, Augustine, I have never attacked you personally, merely your ideas which I don't share and which I don't agree with.
quote:
First, owing to my former RL position, I was morally if not formally obliged to not be active in politics-- my last membership expired in 1986. Not that it's anybody's business, but I have voted for both Liberal and NDP candidates in the years since, and tax receipts from candidates from both parties figure in my tax returns.
You said on the AS thread you cast your vote for Justin. And your admiration for him is no secret to me. The Liberal Party's strange membership rules notwithstanding, in any other political party would you would be a member.
quote:
I know one and a half of the McGill contingent myself, so need no introductions--- indeed, I think that they are among the jewels of our House of Commons, although I've yet to find anyone who seems to agree with me (aside from some Clerks of Committees of the House). I would like to see some of them returned at the next election.
And yet Justin's road to victory lies through Quebec, implying a Liberal/NDP race. If Justin doesn't break through in Quebec, he won't finish second. I meant "cute" as in "cute until it gets in the way" and the NPD in Quebec is in the Liberal's way.
My assertion was that the NDP has the tools at hand to stop Justin's "youth" narrative dead. Again, that is a narrative I do not believe.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I'm sorry SPK. You attacked me on several grounds. I defended myself. I am not satisfied with your response. We're done.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
And, if that's the best the NDP has to offer, then my respect for the party that dates from meeting Stanley Knowles and Tommy Douglas in the 1950's, is done as well.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Why anyone would find the mewling babe reference an attack is quite beyond me. We were all once mewling babes.
I don't have a dog in this fight but you quite literally called him a whimpering baby and for whatever reason y don't understand how calling someone a whimpering baby is an attack? Especially when referring to, as I understand it, a leader who other people follow?
And that's without getting into the fact that when you google for mewling almost all the references on the first page are to 'Mewling Quim' from the recent Avengers movie.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't actually understand what you guys are on about. Justin Trudeau is 'younger' not young. He has charisma, and appeals to the public in ways that Harper cannot, with Mulcair seeming to be in between, but perhaps slightly toward the older, dare I say stodgy end. Not saying Mulcair is stodgy, neither he nor Trudeau are anything like that very bad Harper man. -- Can we not agree on this Harper=bad for the country?
I live in the west. I have lived in Manitoba, Albert and Saskatchewan. In Manitoba there is a taste of the politics of Ontario and eastwards. None of it in Saskatchewan unless we consider the lone Liberal Ralph Goodale from Regina (Ralph's electability is on a personal level, not a party level). Alberta is even more so. I will not address B.C. because it is woefully complicated there, and I have no personal knowledge.
The issues in the west are either/or, i.e., it's either conservative/Conservative and anyone that can possibly defeat them. When I talk to people, they tell me that they worry most that the NDP and Liberals will split votes such that the Conservative continue to win, the next time with a minority of the popular vote both in individual ridings and nationally.
We have another issue of the redistribution of ridings. Currently there is study of the representation of cities versus rural, with the Sask scene very disturbing. It is rather clear that the inclusion of vast swaths of rural areas in ridings with a few city neighbourhoods has meant that rural Conservative candidates have won seats when if the cities were represented as city ridings there would be (my guesstimate) 5 non-Conservative members in addition to Ralph Goodale.
Sorry for the long windedness. But it boils down to the clear fact that those of us who do not want the Cons and Harper will have to determine which opposition party to support and do it en mass or we'll be in the same place as we are now, with Conservatives ruining the country. The young find an appeal to Trudeau as a person over Mulcair, with their politics being more of the NDP (by young I'm meaning the 18-35 set, and living in cities, and I am generalizing probably too much).
[ 19. April 2013, 16:08: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
We have another issue of the redistribution of ridings. Currently there is study of the representation of cities versus rural, with the Sask scene very disturbing. It is rather clear that the inclusion of vast swaths of rural areas in ridings with a few city neighbourhoods has meant that rural Conservative candidates have won seats when if the cities were represented as city ridings there would be (my guesstimate) 5 non-Conservative members in addition to Ralph Goodale.
Ah, yes, gerrymandering, just like the Republican-controlled states in the US do to Congressional districts! (Each state's legislature draws the congressional district map for its own state.). I have heard it said that Democratic candidates in the 2012 actually got a greater total number of votes but the way Republican controlled states distorted their districts enabled more Republicans to win congressional seats.
I wonder if some sort of algorithm could be put in place to stop this, or at least make it more difficult. And above all, electoral districts should be mapped by neutral non-politicians.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
If you think only Republicans gerrymander states then you are wearing partisan blinders. California was notorious for it's oddly shaped legislative boundaries that favored the Democrats.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
I wasn't trying to say that the Republicans were the only ones who gerrymandered. But right now gerrymandering just happens to have the most detrimental effect to persons in the U.S. who are actual human beings and not corporations. (But this thread is about Canadian affairs and there are other threads in which U.S. stuff can be talked about in more detail.)
[ 19. April 2013, 19:47: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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