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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Autistic Children in Church
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Not sure if this is quite the right place, but I'm looking for some advice......
......I know (through work) a young single Mum with a 7-year old autistic son (who I shall refer to as M). Mum and M came along to a baptism at our place a while ago, and Mum was rather embarrassed when M quite calmly (but loudly) asked - half-way through the service - 'Is it over yet?'. To which the officiating priest (a school chaplain) equally calmly replied 'Not quite!'. No-one seemed to mind the interruption in the slightest, and after the service M happily wandered around the church looking at the candles, statues and so on, before asking Mum to light a candle in memory of his goldfish which had then lately died......
My feeling is that Mum would like to bring M along to church, but is afraid that his sometimes inappropriate behaviour would cause problems. I don't think this would necessarily be the case - we have some quite small kidz who sometimes make their noisy presence felt, as well as an autistic adult or two, and I think we are generally a pretty tolerant and accepting congregation. However......Mum tells me that M has somehow got hold of the idea that he is 'different' from other children. When asked why this was, Mum told him that God had made him in a special way......which is perhaps reasonable enough, except that M is now cursing God and saying that he hates him, simply because he, M, is seen by other children (who can be cruel little wotsits)as 'different' and therefore by extrapolation 'bad'.
Do any of you with experience of autism have any words of advice/comfort/encouragement I could offer M's Mum? Bearing in mind that I don't really know either of them that well, but that the Church (as represented here by me) should be doing something to help.....
Thanks!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thank you, Gwai - that was my own gut reaction.
The priest in question is indeed a Good Egg, though not our parish priest. Our PP is himself an ex-schoolmaster, however, so I would anticipate an equally good reaction!
I am myself in a position of leadership, so will take your advice next time I see Mum.
I'd still be interested to hear how others deal with similar situations, though - and I emphasise that our little A-C congregation is by no means Indifferent to people with autism, Asperger's, ADHD, mental-health issues, learning difficulties etc.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I saw what you did there!
You have to admire ASD logic. "God made you in a special way" would work for so many children with so many issues, but for the ASD child (and this is how my mind would work as well) that means "right. It's God's fault, the bastard!" And I don't think there's much "somehow" about M. realising he's different - I'd be on the very mild end of the Aspergers end of the ASD spectrum if you really wanted to classify my weirdnesses that way, but I realisd I was very "different" by the time I was 5.
M. needs to see the church as a place where his being different doesn't matter, where his unusual personality traits are actually valued, and where the ridicule he gets (and alas will continue to get) from his neurotypical peer-group is not welcome, because if "God made him in a special way", it means God values the special way he made him.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks, Karl - I'll see what I can do to work on that.....
(BTW, I'm a bit of an Aspie myself, I'm told - I scored 144 out of 200 on one of those oh-so-reliable Internet quizzes...)!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
M's Mum needs to be re-assured that they are both welcome. Frankly, the behaviour you describe is nothing out-of-the-ordinary and Mum needs to be told that this is so. Reaction of priest to question was reasonable because it was a reasonable question: far better to give factual answer than just try to silence.
Sounds to me as if M and his Mother have found a church which will make them welcome - keep up the good work.
M and his Mum need to be reassured that he IS special - because we are all special to God. And the rest of the church need to back this up, not with some policy but just by treating them like everyone else: fellow members of the Body.
I used to attend a church with several families with "special" children, ages ranging from 2 to mid 20s. All were seen as "special" because they were God's children; NONE were seen as "special" because they had Downs or whatever.
When it was time for confirmation all - including the "specials" - were prepared and presented to the Bishop. All children who wished to be in the youth club went; and all were welcome to audition for the choir - they got in because they passed the audition, same as everyone else. The same held true for the serving team - if you wanted to be a server you did the training bit and then went onto the rota.
We had 2 autistic children (brothers) who came to church from infancy; they were given the same opportunities as everyone else, elected to be on the team of sidesmen and they were brilliant at it. And there were older people with "special needs" who were also part of church life.
Was this a particularly "special" parish - I didn't think so at the time (1970s) but experience has since told me it was and would probably be considered so today, too.
The "trick", if such it was, that the PP employed was this: HE SAW PEOPLE IN THE PEW AS JUST THAT, NOTHING MORE OR LESS. There were no "All-Age" services because all services were seen as being for all ages. This PP truly saw "all conditions of men" as being just and made no exceptions. And it seemed that everyone - children, adults, "specials" and "non-specials" responded to this approach.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Our experience at our church is a bit different-- we have several children & adults with Downs Syndrome. What has been helpful (really essential) for us has been to identify several volunteers who are skilled in working with the children/adults involved. (The child is fairly verbal, the adults not at all, which makes for unique challenges). They need to have no other responsibilities on Sunday other than to sit with the individuals and help them remember appropriate behaviors, etc. (The adult ladies in particular love to pray-- passionately and fervently, albeit not at all articulate. Very hard to get them to end their prayers... : ) ) It is a challenge, but a good and important one and one that we've found several people willing to take on. Our congregation is an unusually highly educated/ cognitive one (at least for American evangelicals)-- 90% have a graduate degree, most in theology. Having members with cognitive disorders has had a good impact, calling us to be a bit less celebral in our approach to faith.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I don't know how widely it has been distributed, but Oxford Diocese certainly has an advice brochure (worked on in conjunction with one of our Shipmates). It would be interesting to know if other Dioceses (or other Denominations) have similar advice sheets and/or courses available and, if so, how many of their clergy and ministry teams know about them.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
However......Mum tells me that M has somehow got hold of the idea that he is 'different' from other children. When asked why this was, Mum told him that God had made him in a special way......which is perhaps reasonable enough, except that M is now cursing God and saying that he hates him, simply because he, M, is seen by other children (who can be cruel little wotsits)as 'different' and therefore by extrapolation 'bad'.
I do not see Mum's initial response as good. The reaction here would not be unexpected from any young child.
Honesty, with love and support, is the best path, IMO.
Kudos to the priest, BTW.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
At a church I attended when I lived in another state, there was an eight-year-old boy who was autistic. He used to make noises and wave his arms. His mother said to the rector that maybe she should stop bringing him. The rector's solution was to take the boy in his arms at announcement time (his mother had said he wouldn't mind this), hold him up so that everyone could see him, and said, "This is Mike. He is autistic. Sometimes he waves his arms. Sometimes he makes noises. He can't adjust to us, so we have to adjust to him."
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
At a church I attended when I lived in another state, there was an eight-year-old boy who was autistic. He used to make noises and wave his arms. His mother said to the rector that maybe she should stop bringing him. The rector's solution was to take the boy in his arms at announcement time (his mother had said he wouldn't mind this), hold him up so that everyone could see him, and said, "This is Mike. He is autistic. Sometimes he waves his arms. Sometimes he makes noises. He can't adjust to us, so we have to adjust to him."
Moo
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
In one of my small rural churches in a congregation of about 20-30 we have a mid teen aspergers lad and a not-yet formally labelled but definitely deeper on the spectrum 5 yr old.
It is a community where all know each other and so aware of the situation. Leading services there is a joy for various reasons, the unpredictable interactions being one of them. This is a chapel that is informal end of the scale of a fairly informal tradition.
My first ever service there the teenager commented mid sermon about my metaphorical illustration. I acknowledged his point, but it meant I knew to think more carefully about such things.
Another time when we had communion and most of the children would be present I decided to use the liturgy devised by my college tutors which used the minimum of words interspersed with silence and action. As I slowly said 'And he took' pause 'and blessed' pause 'broke' pause 'and gave' at each pause the young boy echoed me. It was a really moving moment for the whole congregation.
In both cases it showed that they were focussed on what was going on. Yes there are times when the young boy wanders, or decides to stand in fascination at the advent candles. But it is in a place which like an extended family gathering just fits around them.
I can think of another of my churches where it would be a long teaching and learning curce to get beyond the tutting.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Yes there are times when the young boy wanders, or decides to stand in fascination at the advent candles.
A contemplative!
From an adult Aspie point of view, the worst things about church for me are: sounds (e.g. people stirring coffee cups in church just before a service starts), erratic unexpected movements (people moving around unexpectedly can increase my anxiety levels), emotional displays, the peace greeting. I am often in a heightened state of anxiety when I arrive at church, and it takes time for me to settle down and relax. So don't try to help me when I have tasks to do - it confuses and rattles me as I now have to contend with the task AND with your presence and unexpected help.
I like it when we sing lots of familiar songs that I can focus on - but feel uncomfortable when the song leader tries to spice them up by getting us to sing different words, or sing the chorus without the verse, etc. Predictability is calming - unexpected changes can be unsettling, though I can also take some surprises in my stride (e.g. if the song leader wants to sing a different song, I will quickly fetch the words and display them for the congregation - that is about making the service work well and I can do that).
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Merchant Trader
Shipmate
# 9007
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Posted
My friend's oldest son son had similar problems.
He has been in church from when he was a todler and is still there in his mid twenties.
Yes at times there was inappropriate behaviour and inappropriate words - both of which he has leaned to control but both of which folk accepted when he was younger for his and his parents sake. Indeed I would say that we are not a touchy feely congregation but there has been genuine inclusiveness for this young man.
One secret was that he was given jobs to do: earlier on opening the door for the choir, giving out the magazine. Later reading, organising trips and writing articles for the magazine (the last two items usually concerned with trains). Now a sideman - sometimes behaviour might come over a little officious, for him perfectly acceptably and very efficiently done. Definately always on time.
The attitude of the congregation is important. Genuine interest in what he has to say - conversation is still a bit one-sided but what he has to say and his perspectives are increasing ly interesting, Including him on social events very important to make him feel he is accepted as one of us - including family events etc, not just official church socials.
All in all, an opportunity for a church to be not just formally inclusive but accepting and loving. An opportunity to value his growing contribution.
What is not appropriate is focus on so called inappropriate behaviour. Acceptance of an occasional called out comment may be rewarded with seeing a unique contribution to church life.
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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds
Posts: 1328 | Registered: Jan 2005
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HelsBells
Apprentice
# 16051
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Posted
My 11 year old son has Aspergers and the church where we go have been extremely welcoming and accepting. They were already used to having children with additional needs and now they don't bat an eyelid if he sits in bizarre positions, reads his books or gets fidgetty. I feel that we've been accepted as a family with everything that that includes.
As previous people have said, M's Mum needs to be reassured that they will be welcome no matter what. As a parent of an autistic child I have been in fear of what other people will be thinking when my son kicks off or behaves oddly - he looks so "normal", is bright, can be chatty and full of information when the mood takes him. I have really appreciated the times when people have either ignored the oddities / "bad" behaviour (which often isn't bad, just not coping behaviour) or have made a small encouraging comment later. Not having to make excuses or justify myself has been a blessed relief.
What may be helpful for M is if he can be introduced to the fact that lots of other people are made the same way as he is. We had always explained to our son that he was made differently, but this made him feel isolated. What was a revelation for him was to watch "My Autism and Me", a BBC Newsround production, introduced by a girl of about 12 with Aspergers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/15655232 or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeGaffIJvHM
My son finally realised that he wasn't alone in being different and he suddenly had an identity he could name and tell people about - although we'd already discussed Aspergers with him, seeing this meant much more to him. He believed us that there were other people like him as he'd now seen them.
None of this has helped my son to believe in God or want to go to church which I feel sad about. When discussing our Human Rights last week, he asked why he had to come to church, as it was his right not to as he wasn't a Christian. When he's old enough to stay at home, he can do and I have told him that until then he has to come as he needs to respect our right to come to church as it is important to us.
It sounds like you're all on the right lines - hope the video helps.
Posts: 8 | From: Allanton | Registered: Dec 2010
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
One of the children with Asperger's I taught was very much aware of his situation and had been to a group designed to help him recognise his difference and cope with it. (He also came from a Christian family from a church which was not particularly predictable in worship Mystery Worshipper )
One day he said despairingly that he hated having Asperger's, and I had to cast around for some sort of comfort. I had been reading around, and could say that the sort of skills which went with his sort of thinking were really useful to everyone, and added in Isaac Newton, Temple Grandin and Einstein as possible fellows. I'm not sure how comforting he found it, but he did thank me for taking the time (he was brilliant at thinking about others and being polite!).
This would fit with the suggestion above about helping M not to feel so different, by making him aware that he is not alone - more adult role models woud be a good idea.
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
Bishop's Finger, I have PM'd you.
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
When my sons were younger I would take them to church regularly. One is severely autistic (non-verbal, lots of hooting, waving and melt-downs) and one is much more high-functioning. We stopped taking the severely autistic one when it became obvious that is was actually causing him distress due to noise made by other children in the congregation. He is very noise sensitive and the sound of crying children or babies was physically painfull for him. Oddly his own loud noises seem to be fine. The other one still comes occasionally although professing not be a Christian (he is now 20) and just coming to play in the band for the evening service, or give the choir a rest from the digital hymnal by playing the piano for the morning service.
Both boys have been accepted totally by the congregation, with one exception. I overheard the then church warden comment 'I don't know why she brings him (refering to the more severe one) what can he get out of it?' I still brought him, still spoke to her, never mentioned it to her but God forgive my thoughts when she fell out with the new churchwarden and left in a huff.
More able boy has been known to interupt a sermon to tell the minister that he has a date wrong, but because he has been coming for so long, everyone just accepts that.
For me the really important thing is that I have been able to encourage other mums with disruptive children. Whatever their children do is never a patch on my children (I remember with shame an incident with an altar frontal ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ) and I do find that parents are comforted, particularly when they see my boy playing the piano.
The really important thing is time. Give a congregation time and they will not only accept but cherish and celebrate differently abled children.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Our experience at our church is a bit different-- we have several children & adults with Downs Syndrome. What has been helpful (really essential) for us has been to identify several volunteers who are skilled in working with the children/adults involved. (The child is fairly verbal, the adults not at all, which makes for unique challenges). They need to have no other responsibilities on Sunday other than to sit with the individuals and help them remember appropriate behaviors, etc.
My immediate response to this is conditioned on my experience with church -- I imagined that those poor saps who are "skilled" are expected to forego worship experience for the rest of their tenure at the church so the rest of the congregation can go about their business as usual. I sincerely hope (and genuinely doubt) that the spiritual needs of the skilled cadre are as intentionally addressed as are those of the Downs Syndrome parishioners.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thank you all for your helpful comments and advice, especially those who have PM'ed me.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
^^ Agreed ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
My church doesn't have any children with special needs - we have three regular children, but often we have babies whose parents want them to be baptised in the church. We love having a church full of noisy babies! It's so refreshing for us. We'd be overjoyed at 'difficult' autistic children, because it would breathe such life into our church family.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Our experience at our church is a bit different-- we have several children & adults with Downs Syndrome. What has been helpful (really essential) for us has been to identify several volunteers who are skilled in working with the children/adults involved. (The child is fairly verbal, the adults not at all, which makes for unique challenges). They need to have no other responsibilities on Sunday other than to sit with the individuals and help them remember appropriate behaviors, etc.
My immediate response to this is conditioned on my experience with church -- I imagined that those poor saps who are "skilled" are expected to forego worship experience for the rest of their tenure at the church so the rest of the congregation can go about their business as usual. I sincerely hope (and genuinely doubt) that the spiritual needs of the skilled cadre are as intentionally addressed as are those of the Downs Syndrome parishioners.
--Tom Clune
It's similar to those who work in the nursery, etc. Since we are a smaller church with only one service, those who serve on Sunday mornings in a variety of settings often have to forgo worship, obviously regrettable. For that reason, those are rotating positions. Those who help with our child (now teen actually) and the adults with Down's serve once a month, just as our nursery caregivers do. It is a known problem, not unique to the special needs caregivers, but yes, definitely a concern.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Tom
You have just learnt you are dealing with a Presbyterian. This sort of consideration is part of the spiritual DNA as is the solution.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Tom
You have just learnt you are dealing with a Presbyterian. This sort of consideration is part of the spiritual DNA as is the solution.
Jengie
I'm not sure if I've just been dissed or not. Wanna unpack that for me so I know whether or not to be offended? : )
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
......I know (through work) a young single Mum with a 7-year old autistic son (who I shall refer to as M). ... and after the service M happily wandered around the church looking at the candles, statues and so on, before asking Mum to light a candle in memory of his goldfish which had then lately died......
I like the candle bit. God's creature are real and so is our relationship with them.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Our oldest son has Asperger's syndrome. In his younger days he could be a little disruptive in church and more so in Sunday School. Lack of empathy and probably his not wanting to be in Sunday School probably contributed to his behaviour. He is now 16. For the last 2+ years he has been running the sound system for church services. During this time he is a model of professionalism and decorum despite still struggling with socialization and social cues. Please encourage M and his mother to attend services.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Tom
You have just learnt you are dealing with a Presbyterian. This sort of consideration is part of the spiritual DNA as is the solution.
Jengie
I'm not sure if I've just been dissed or not. Wanna unpack that for me so I know whether or not to be offended? : )
Not being dissed, consider I am in a denomination which has strong Presbyterian strand and I worship in a congregation from that strand. A comment on what I notice about many Reformed churches (Congregational churches are slightly less formal over it but still doing it but still do).
It is an ability in doing it to foresee a need, and build into the system in what is quite often a very organised way a work around as it is implemented. I suspect there is a belief somewhere that the best time to solve a problem is before it happens. It seems to be cultural and leads to a concentration on detail in organising congregational life that I do not see to the same extent elsewhere.
It is also reflected in the amount of energy we expend on getting the manner of church government right. That is not that we should just make the right decision but that it should be made in the right way.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
It is an ability in doing it to foresee a need, and build into the system in what is quite often a very organised way a work around as it is implemented. I suspect there is a belief somewhere that the best time to solve a problem is before it happens. It seems to be cultural and leads to a concentration on detail in organising congregational life that I do not see to the same extent elsewhere.
It is also reflected in the amount of energy we expend on getting the manner of church government right. That is not that we should just make the right decision but that it should be made in the right way.
Jengie
Ah! Thanks for the clarification.
yes, I think that's an accurate statement re: Reformed polity-- both the blessing & the curse of it! fwiw, while still retaining my ordination in a Reformed body (PCUSA) I'm currently serving outside the denomination, and consider myself more Wesleyan than Reformed theologically at this point in time. Yet I do still very much appreciate Reformed polity and lean that way even w/o the formal denominational structures for precisely those reasons.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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