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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: May Book Group - Time's Echo
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
May's Book Group read is Time's Echo by Pamela Hartshorne. Click on the link to find out more about the book and the author.
I'll post some questions on the 20th, but in the meanwhile I hope you'll consider giving it a whirl. It's an entertaining time-slip read, a bit of a romance, a bit of a thriller, a bit historical and a bit supernatural.
[ 30. April 2013, 17:59: Message edited by: Gussie ]
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Picked up my library copy today.
Anyone else reading this?
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Our library system has it not: I'll ask Z to see if she can get it for our Kindle app.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
She can't. I don't want to pay an exorbitant price for a used paperback and it is not on Kindle: I shan't be playing this month.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I hope there are some more people lurking out there who want to join in otherwise it's just going to be TreeBee and me.
Sir Kevin - I read it on my Kindle, but maybe it was only available in the UK?
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Likely. I will ask Z to look at the university library to see if it's there.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
I see this is set in York, one of my favourite places.
Scary start though! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I managed to get my hands on this book, and have started reading. From what I've read, I don't think that it's really my kind of book, but I hope you won't mind if I join in anyway.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
LeRoc said:
quote:
I managed to get my hands on this book, and have started reading. From what I've read, I don't think that it's really my kind of book, but I hope you won't mind if I join in anyway.
The thing I like about the Ship's book group is that I read loads of stuff I wouldn't have otherwise read. It'll be interesting to see what you make of it.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
I don't normally do the book group, but this sounded very much my kind of thing, so I got it out of the library. I started reading it yesterday and ended up staying up far too late and devouring the thing in one evening! Sleepy now.
It was really good though. Looking forward to discussing it.
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I finished the book. I didn't like it. Looking forward to the discussion ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Glad a few people managed to read it. I haven't got much in the way of detailed discussion starters, but here a few of the impressions it made on me.
I read this over Christmas, when I was in bed with the flu. I'm not sure if it was the flu, it being cold and dark, or the fact that we'd just moved into a house similar to the one described in the book, but I found it really gripping and atmospheric, and with the rotting apples, a little scary.
I thought the imagined York of the past was convincing. I've been to York a few times, but I don't know it well, and I don't know a lot about 16th Century social history, but nothing obviously grated in the way the characters in the past acted.
I wasn't sure about the 'witchy' bits and not being an Anglican, I'm not sure about the church bits either. A Pagan friend didn't think the rituals described were altogether accurate. Did you think they were necessary to the plot or just there to add a bit more 'supernatural' colour.
I found the character of Hawise troubling. She is an immensely sympathetic character in the past, an intelligent woman trapped by her circumstances and her own choices,. I found this hard to square with the murderous 'ghost' of the present.
Anything else anyone wants to add. I'm rather fond of time-slip novels, my favourite being Daphne du Maurier's 'The House on the Strand'. Anyone else got ones they particularly like?
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
Francis was a seriously creepy and memorable villain. The ongoing hatred he has for Hawise and the lengths he goes to to punish her for turning him down as a teenager, and her trapped helplessness in the face of it and inability to safely tell any of her allies.
(spoiler warning)
I was so relieved he didn't actually get Bess in the end.
Agnes is also fascinating - how much she was already like that and how much Francis corrupted her.
I'd also like to see recommendations of more time-slip novels. I don't think I've encountered the genre before (as opposed to time-travel - which I also like) and I enjoyed this one a lot.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
I recommend any Barbara Erskine novels if you want to sample more in the time slip genre.
Whispers in the Sand is set in Egypt and is very atmospheric, but they are all gripping and strangely believable.
I enjoyed Time's Echo, especially the York setting. I also like the psychological aspects; the manipulative Francis, Agnes and the modern pagan bloke. Also the tsunami back story.
I found the rotting apples rather ridiculous I'm afraid.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Thank you for opening the discussion, Gussie. I'll try to say here what I thought about the book, but I'm warning you: I didn't like it. I hope that my contribution to this month's Book Group (and as a newcomer at that) won't be seen as too negative.
My biggest problem with the book is: I don't like Grace. There, I've said it, I feel a lot better now To me, she comes over as self-centered and swallow, and she stays this way during the book.
The first thing about her, is that she spent all of this time in Indonesia and in these other countries, and she didn't allow this to have an effect on her. By coincidence, I have a friend who taught English as a Foreign language in Indonesia, and it had a profound effect on her. The people she met, the immersion in an entirely culture... It took her months after getting back to Europe to put all of these things into place.
Grace only talks (repeatedly) about the streets that smelled of exotic spices, her ex-boyfriend, the Swedish couple with their child, going to the beach in Mexico with her friend Meg... and that's it. She doesn't mention one Indonesian person, or their culture. She seems like a certain kind of people I sometimes encounter around the world, and I usually try to avoid them like the plague.
The second thing is her passivity. Time-slipping is a well-known trope in Science Fiction of course (it happens in at least 2 or 3 episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation), and the usual model for it is this:- A character slips back and forward through time, switching between two or three different time episodes.
- He/she realizes that at the end of one of these time episodes, something terrible happens.
- People tell him/her: "There's nothing you can do. You cannot change time."
- Yet, the character does everything in his/her power to try to avoid the disaster.
Step 4 is suspiciously absent from the book. Grace never tries to do one single thing to help Hawise, even though the book makes clear that she can influence some things in the past: Hawise has dreams about the tsunami, Viviane suggests that Grace might be occupying Hawise, Hawise sometimes sees glimpses of the future...
All of these things might give Grace some handles to at least try something, even if it's against all the odds. Yet she never even considers this. This makes me see her character in a very negative light.
I like Hawise a lot more than I like Grace. Hawise is a child of her time of course, but she tries to go beyond the limits that are put upon her as a woman (culminating in her taking over her husband's business after his death). Hawise's story --from being a teenage girl to becoming an accused witch-- is a little predictable, but it's ok. And as the most of you, I liked the descriptions of XVI Century York. Hartsthorne is a historician, and it shows.
What's more: Hawise cares about people. About her daughter Bess of course, but also about her husband (whom she didn't like at first), about her housekeeper (with whom she was first in competition about the control of Ned's house), at some moment she evens cares about Francis, when she helps him to heal from the Plague.
The difference between Hawise and Grace becomes particularly clear in the way they treat Sybil Dent/Vivianne (in the book they are equivalents in different centuries, they live in the same house). Hawise cares about Sybil, she looks her up to warn her when she's accused of being a which at considerable personal peril. Grace only considers Vivianne because she wants something from her, and that's it. (To me, Vivianne is a glaringly under-used character in the book BTW.)
That's Grace: people are only important to her when she needs something from them. This even includes Drew (more about that later).
I would be able to accept Grace's self-absorbedness and shallowness if this would show some kind of character evolution in the book: if Grace would start out as self-centered and shallow, but experiencing something of Hawise's life would make her care more about other people. That would be an ok story.
In fact, Grace does go through a character evolution in the book, but it's a different one: she starts out as someone who doesn't want to make commitments, with always a suitcase packed to be able to go to another country on the fly. Yet, through her adventures with Hawise, she realizes that she needs the kind of security and safety that only a man can give her.
Yes, that's literally in the book. Every time Grace thinks about the attraction she feels towards Drew, it's about his broad back and strong shoulders that make her feel safe and secure. I wonder what the feminists under you make of that...
It all comes together in a climax at the end of the book of course. I liked the fact that Hawise's daughter was saved too, I didn't see that coming. But Grace's climax feels utterly contrived.
Ash is supposed to be Francis' equivalent in the XXI Century (Hartsthorne introduces these equivalents, but treats them in a very half-assed way). But Ash is pathetic! He makes this whole Temple of the Water thing up to let Sophie undress by the side of the river and tell her "stay here until we come back" and then stay away and laugh about her. That's a cruel and violent thing to do, but it casts doubt on whether Hartsthorne has any idea how dangerous and manipulative a real sect can be.
I cannot help but think of Ash as something of a loser. Yet, he manages to out-power Drew. What does this say about Drew? Sophie goes to an initiation ceremony led by Ash, a person he has every reason to believe is dangerous, yet he cannot be there because he has to go to dinner with an American professor. WTF??? If my teenage daughter was under a threat like this, then screw the Yank, I'm going to help her. And I wouldn't try to win some vague discussions about religion with Ash, I'd do everything in my power to make his life as miserable as possible. What a wuss is this Drew. Yet, Grace falls for his sense of security.
Then the whole scene of rescuing Sophie... She wasn't even in danger, she was sitting naked in the rain by the side of the river. Not a very comfortable position to be in for sure, but her life wasn't under threat. Grace tries to save her out of some sense of duty (I'm not really buying that she cares for Sophie either) but she messes up because Hawise makes her fall into the water (what does this say about Hawise? She already killed Lucy). So, in the end, Grace needs to be saved. By a man.
I'm sorry, but it's a mess.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
I could be wrong but I don't think Hawise deliberately killed anyone. I think that as she developed a stronger connection with her "hosts" (Lucy and then Grace), her obsession with the river and her need to find out what happened after her death became a more powerful force driving them to the river. I don't think she was trying to kill Lucy and Grace, or even had a very clear understanding of their existence.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
You may be right, but I do think that "Who is morally responsible for killing Lucy and almost killing Grace?" is an interesting question. Believe me, it's not an attempt for me to further discredit book, I honestly think that this becomes an interesting moral question if we accept the premise that someone's ghost can possess someone.
Could we accept "Who is morally responsible for killing Lucy and almost killing Grace?" as at least an interesting question for discussing this book? I can think of various possible answers:- Hawise. After all, she is the one possessing Grace, always pushing for attention inside her brain, and leading her down the same path as she herself went through. Maybe it wasn't deliberate from her part, but I wouldn't call it 'good' either.
- Francis. He is the bad guy in the book, and Vivianne suggests that his ghost might be inhabiting Ash. Still, they didn't have a direct influence on Lucy and Grace falling into the river.
- Grace and Lucy themselves. After all, they are the ones who fell into the water. Maybe they should have sought more help when they realized they were possessed by Hawise.
- Sophie. She should have listened to her father more. By going to the iniciation ceremony on the bridge, she put the people who care about her in danger.
- Drew. When he realized his daughter was in danger, he shouldn't have left her in Grace's responsibility, especially since he knew that Grace would 'phase out' sometimes.
- No-one. It was just an accident, without any moral ramifications.
What do you think?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Grace, Lucy, Sophie, Drew and Ash are all responsible for their own actions though they all were under pressure from external sources.
Francis and Hawise are dead so can't be held responsible - that's what I find scary and makes for a good story.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Tree Bee: Francis and Hawise are dead so can't be held responsible
I'm sorry, but I can't read what you're saying in the book. Pamela Hartsthorne describes a world in which dead isn't really dead. After people die, people's ghosts can influence the lives of other people in the future.
So, who was in Grace's head? You could argue that it wasn't Hawise, that it was Hawise's ghost, and those are two separate entities. But Hartsthorne disagrees with this premise: she repeatedly states that it was Hawise who tried to get access to Grace's mind.
It seems that Gussie has the same thoughts as I:
quote:
Gussie: I found the character of Hawise troubling. She is an immensely sympathetic character in the past, an intelligent woman trapped by her circumstances and her own choices,. I found this hard to square with the murderous 'ghost' of the present.
From the premises that Hartsthorne sets out in the book, the moral question "Is Hawise in some way to blame for the death of Lucy and the almost-death of Grace?" isn't very wide off the mark.
I have the feeling that Hartsthorne should at least have addressed this question (even if she wouldn't give a definite answer).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
To my mind Hawise was conjured up by the meddling in the occult done by Lucy and is somehow 'real' in the present in a more concrete way than the Ash/Francis, Sybil/Francis pairing that seem more like hints at some sort of re-incarnation than haunting.
I thought what Talitha said about Francis and Agatha was interesting, we only have Hawise's view of them in the past, maybe they weren't quite as villanous as she makes them out, and she wasn't quite as good. Having said that I did thinl she was the best drawn and most convincing character.
In a way I think we have at least three types of stories going on here. We have a traditional romance which is what usually Harthorne writes, which may account for why LeRoc dislikes the character of Grace. She could be seen as a typical Mills and Boon heroine, saved by the love of a good man from the problems of the past. We then have a historical novel about an intelligent woman trying to make her way in 16th Century society and then we have the ghost /horror/supernatural story. I thought that this worked fairly well, but some of it such as Vivianne and the Anglican priests were there to add colour rather than further the plot.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Gussie: To my mind Hawise was conjured up by the meddling in the occult done by Lucy
Hmm, so it might have been Lucy's fault. I hadn't thought of this.
quote:
Gussie: than the Ash/Francis, Sybil/Francis pairing
I assume that you wanted to say 'Sybil/Vivianne pairing' as the second one.
The thing that bugs me, there are several pairings (I called them 'equivalents' in my post) in the book:- Hawise/Grace
- Ash/Francis
- Sybil/Vivianne
- Drew/Ned
- Bess/Sophie(?)
At some points, Hartsthorne seems to give much significance to these pairings, but later she almost seems to forget about them. I found this very unsatisfying.
quote:
Gussie: We have a traditional romance which is what usually Harthorne writes, which may account for why LeRoc dislikes the character of Grace.
I gather that I'm not really in the target group for these romances
quote:
Gussie: but some of it such as Vivianne and the Anglican priests were there to add colour rather than further the plot.
I think that Hartsthorne should either have fleshed Vivianne out more, or left her out. I would have voted for the former option, I think she could have added a lot to the book.
We should just forget about the Anglican priests.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
LeRoc said:
quote:
I assume that you wanted to say 'Sybil/Vivianne pairing' as the second one.
Sorry that's who I meant, and I did check my spelling etc before I posted! Yes I think these pairing were meant to be deliberate, but maybe having such a complex plot meant she lost sight of some of them.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Gussie: Yes I think these pairing were meant to be deliberate, but maybe having such a complex plot meant she lost sight of some of them.
I agree. When I read about these pairings, my mind started conjecturing various possibilities about what could happen with this idea, trying to anticipate through which surprising roads Hartsthorne would take me with it... and then nothing much happened.
Still, the book gave me a captivating look into XVI Century York, and (although probably not exactly intended by the writer) it raised some interesting questions about morality in stories about ghost possession. That's not too bad.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
I thought the Anglicans were portrayed fairly positively. They took Grace seriously and didn't judge her, and after meeting them (both the initial encounter in the church, and the exorcism/deliverance) she felt greatly at peace (although they didn't actually succeed at getting rid of the ghost - but it would have been awkward for the plot if they had). I felt the author avoided a lot of negative Christian stereotypes she could have used.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Talitha: I thought the Anglicans were portrayed fairly positively. They took Grace seriously and didn't judge her, and after meeting them (both the initial encounter in the church, and the exorcism/deliverance) she felt greatly at peace (although they didn't actually succeed at getting rid of the ghost - but it would have been awkward for the plot if they had). I felt the author avoided a lot of negative Christian stereotypes she could have used.
Hmm, maybe you're right. I still feel that the priests didn't add very much to the story.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sorry for the double post, but I've been thinking some more about the Anglican priests. This isn't based on anything, just some random thoughts when I was bored standing in a traffic jam in a Brazilian city, but I'd like to know what you think about it.
The premise of the book is that a modern young woman from the XXI Century inhabits the body and mind of a XVI Century woman for a while. I think that this premise could lead to various story lines involving religion. The thing is: Hartsthorne probably can't write a book in this genre that's too heavy on religion, especially on Christianity, because she (or probably her editor) wants to appeal to a wide target audience.
For example, we have a lot of scenes of Hawise going to church. But the church is merely instrumental here, it serves mainly as a way to show Francis' false piousness.
So, how religious is Hawise really? I find it telling that when she's in a lot of turmoil, she never prays, never seeks protection from above. I believe that this is something that a Medieval person would do quite readily.
Also, it would have been quite fascinating to show what secular Grace would think after inhabiting religious Hawise's mind for a while. This story line could lead us to various places. But I understand that this book can't really go there very far.
So, here's my theory: maybe showing two Anglican priests in the XXI in a slightly positive way is the maximum thing that Hartsthorne could get away with on religion. It's just an idea, but I rather like it.
One other thing about the priests: Grace is in distress, because she's possessed by Hawise's ghost, which causes her a lot of turmoil. She goes to two priests, who might be able to exorcise this ghost, and give Grace some relief. And the name of one of the priests is Makepeace ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
I can understand that a writer wants to give some of her characters a Meaningful Name sometimes, but this is just laying it on too thick.
Speaking of Meaningful Names, what do you think of Grace? Is this on purpose? Is there any Grace present in the story, even in the secular sense? I admit that I don't see it. I don't think that Grace being saved by Drew counts as Grace, or Hawise's ghost finally finding rest in the end. Am I showing my Christian bias by seeing too much in this name?
[ 23. May 2013, 22:29: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Thanks to the tantalizing descriptions on here, I've ordered a copy of this book from the local library. It sounds like a really interesting read.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
To continue the Anglican Priest discussion. I was quite glad that the priests in the book were handled sympathetically, though I think that we should have had just the priests or just the Vivianne character. I've read some books, Robert Westall's The Watch House springs to mind where Anglicans have been useless in similar situations.
As to the use of the name Grace, I think this might be reading too much into the story, but there was probably an echo of an idea in the author's mind when she chose the name.
As an aside, I think I can usually guess whether an author has 'inside' knowledge of a religion or not. I get rather fed up of authors who use Catholicism for a bit of colour.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Would that I could get this book... it sounds fascinating!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
LOL, the publishing companies should hire us
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I know the discussion's over, but the comments here prompted me to get hold of a copy. It's really well written. I just started reading it last night, and was quite spooked out by p. 77. If I'd been in Grace's position I'd have gone to stay in a hotel overnight and sold Lucy's house as quickly as possible.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(I don't think there is a rule that you have to stop discussing after the month is over?)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
No, there isn't a rule, it's just that people have probably moved on... well, if anyone hasn't, I finished reading it this morning, so:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The first thing about her, is that she spent all of this time in Indonesia and in these other countries, and she didn't allow this to have an effect on her.
Yes. That came across. However, some people are like that. But Grace had shut off from emotions anyway so it wouldn't necessarily have been bad characterization to portray her that way as all places probably were pretty much alike to her.
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Yet, through her adventures with Hawise, she realizes that she needs the kind of security and safety that only a man can give her.
Yes, that was a bit twee. Also, I'm surprised that nobody, anywhere, sees through Francis except Hap. Or that Ned doesn't ask Hawise why she isn't comfortable around him and doesn't like him. Though as a plot device they probably couldn't.
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So, how religious is Hawise really? I find it telling that when she's in a lot of turmoil, she never prays, never seeks protection from above. I believe that this is something that a Medieval person would do quite readily.
Yes and no. There was always a core element who went along with it but in a fairly pragmatic way without any real sense of religious belief and basically paid lip service to it, for fear of punishment. The secular society we have today probably reflects that the fear of punishment has been removed. But yes. That line ought to have been explored more.
For me it was a bit ruined at the end after all the build-up when the great anticlimax was that Sophie had simply had all her clothes removed and been left on the river bank. Big deal. Wot no mortal peril, no initiation challenges? What a let-down.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Whoa, I thought you were on page 77 only a couple of hours ago!
quote:
Ariel: For me it was a bit ruined at the end after all the build-up when the great anticlimax was that Sophie had simply had all her clothes removed and been left on the river bank. Big deal. Wot no mortal peril, no initiation challenges? What a let-down.
I imagine that for a sect leader, the big kick lies in the power trip. Being able to control people in every way. What Ash did with Sophie here, basically comes down to a prank. A cruel, violent, demeaning prank, but a prank nonetheless. After he walked away from her, he basically released his power on her. That's not an overly scary portrait of a cult leader.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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