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Originally posted by mousethief:
Orthodox wedding ceremonies -- even the ones with two marriands -- don't have vows.

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Originally posted by Codepoet:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Orthodox wedding ceremonies -- even the ones with two marriands -- don't have vows.

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Do they result in a marriage though?

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry, I'm having a difficult time seeing any reason to be concerned.
Understand, marriage is an important thing to me. I do not see the idea of commitment as trivial. However, I could give a toss about weddings. Self-indulgent, trivial, vain, over-priced, divisive, etc. The whole thing lost the plot ages ago.
Nothing, save perhaps mandating everyone have one, could further debase the concept than it already has been.

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Originally posted by Leaf:
Among some Greek and Ukrainian Orthodox, a young umarried woman who dies is buried in a wedding dress. Since the young woman in the article is terminally ill and apparently not likely to marry, who would begrudge her this pre-mortem appearance in a wedding dress?

I can't find it in my heart to condemn her for it. She's a 23-year-old very sick woman who wanted to feel beautiful for a little while.

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

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Originally posted by Leaf:


I can't find it in my heart to condemn her for it. She's a 23-year-old very sick woman who wanted to feel beautiful for a little while.

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Exactly how I feel about this.

A young woman with a bucket list of things to do before she dies, including dressing up as a bride for a day, is not demeaning actual marriage the way that people who abuse their actual marriages are. IMO.

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

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Originally posted by Leaf:
Among some Greek and Ukrainian Orthodox, a young umarried woman who dies is buried in a wedding dress. Since the young woman in the article is terminally ill and apparently not likely to marry, who would begrudge her this pre-mortem appearance in a wedding dress?

I can't find it in my heart to condemn her for it. She's a 23-year-old very sick woman who wanted to feel beautiful for a little while.

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Exactly how I feel about this.

A young woman with a bucket list of things to do before she dies, including dressing up as a bride for a day, is not demeaning actual marriage the way that people who abuse their actual marriages are. IMO.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Orthodox wedding ceremonies -- even the ones with two marriands -- don't have vows.

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Originally posted by Ariel:
I get the impression that in some quarters secular weddings are beginning to be seen more as parties than solemn ceremonies of commitment.

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Whatever would give you that impression?

I think you can safely strike "in some quarters", "secular", and "beginning to be" from the above sentence, and you'd still be making a safe generalization about many times and places, ever since Cana. That's why our quiet, bookish, pipe-smoking Dad, who once freely confessed to being "anti-social", told my sister and me as kids that it wouldn't bother him at all if we were just to drive up to the house someday, bounce out of the car with our beloved, and chirp "Guess what? We're married." (Nevertheless, when in due course she wanted a proper church wedding with a reasonable amount of trimmings, he was unstinting. )

For those dads able and willing to throw big parties, no opportunity in their whole life is likely to beat a child's wedding. Stravinsky had the same impression you do when he composed Les Noces so long ago and with Russia in mind. It would appear that everyone gradually gets falling-over drunk. On the BBC only last week was a story about a small group in the Middle East (Yemen) opposed to the tradition of "chewing cat [?]" at weddings-- evidently some drug that I haven't heard of yet. (How could this happen? ) Guests often show up, invited or not, with no other purpose in mind, and they zone out to the extent that they become oblivious to everything, including the bride and bridegroom.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Byzantine Rite Catholic weddings similarly have no vows, while Western Rite Orthodox ones do.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
... opposed to the tradition of "chewing cat [?]" at weddings-- evidently some drug that I haven't heard of yet. (How could this happen? )

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
The bride may pretend to some form of nobility, in a borrowed tiara.

The couple may pretend to be royalty, seated on thrones.

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posted by Alogon
Archbishop Runcie (of blessed memory) said something like this during the wedding of Charles and Diana.

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That he did - and we all know how that turned out...

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Originally posted by L'organist:

1. Ed's wife left him (took to financial cleaners), shacking up with his ertwhile best friend before emigrating with the children; Clare's husband decided he preferred his fellow man and moved in with his mate Jonno.

2. After a period of years (7 for him, 10 for her) Ed and Clare met, fell in love, and thought about marriage - perhaps children.

3. Both churchgoers, they approached their respective PPs both of whom pronounced that they couldn't marry in church - Clare's told her any second marriage would only be adultery.

4. Gritting teeth went for "christian" counselling where they were urged to "repent" for their failures in faithfulness (!!!) and wait for a year before thinking about committing to each other.

5. They actually waited - went back to counselling and got the same line.

6. At this point common sense took over (biological clock may have had something to do with it). Went on holiday (still in separate rooms) stood alone in tiny Greek church and said their vows.

7. Returned to UK, moved in together (her place); at church on first Sunday requested interview with PP who, when told what they'd done responded they weren't welcome at communion.

8. 3 children later, and a move, and finally they got a PP who, when told they weren't married responded with "why on earth not".

9. Wedding organised in 6 weeks flat - friends in congregation rallied round. Self-catering, pretty dress, children and their Godparents all there. Reception was a parish party - total cost less than £1,200 - this in 2005.

10. Couple are still very happy and friends happy for them...

BUT Clare's old PP, when he heard of the nuptials, sent the most unpleasant letter I've ever seen: adulterers, fornicators, faithless, sin against God, etc, etc, etc. Of course, he'll still marry anyone else so long as they go along with the fiction they don't co-habit - what a hypocrite.

No pretence for this couple but what about the "good on marriage" PPs.

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At a 'typical' western wedding...

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The bride may pretend to some form of nobility, in a borrowed tiara.

The couple may pretend to be royalty, seated on thrones.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To me, the moral of this story is that things would be so much easier if churchgoers tried to find out what their church or a pastor actually believed on these commonplace issues before making themselves at home in a church fellowship. Why be part of a church if you don't share its hardline positions, or if you fundamentally disagree with the minister? You're just storing up trouble for yourself.

We seem to have reached the stage where people care more about the music and the atmosphere in church than about its doctrines and teachings. Or maybe it's just that people don't really care about the teachings unless their own lives are directly affected. This may be true of weddings as of other things.

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• is no more conservative than any other church within a reasonable distance
• has an active Sunday School which the children enjoy, which gives them a good grounding, and which provokes interesting discussions on the way home
• contains a broad spectrum of attitudes within the congregation and on the whole people get on despite their differences
• has a strong social justice outreach
• used to have a more liberal pastor, and may be will again

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Haydee

I agree that there are lots of factors that go into choosing a church, but I'm becoming ever more convinced that you have to explore the nature of a church quite thoughtfully before committing yourself to it. Just looking for a nice atmosphere and/or a commitment to social justice, a friendly minister, etc. isn't enough. And marriage is hardly an abstract theological matter, but is a fundamental aspect of human existence that affects all of us, directly or indirectly. It affects us to such an extent that a dying women without a groom feels inspired to have a 'wedding' ceremony!

As I see it, the situation is that many of these evangelical churches are lively, busy places, which some people find attractive. Many new members are joining up because of these positive aspects without considering what the challenges will be.

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Originally posted by Haydee:
As a middle aged single mother of 2 (adopted) children my church's stance on marriage is just about the last thing I looked at when joining my current congregation. In fact I didn't consider it at all (and it's not a 'buzzy' evangelical church).

Could I refer you to the thread on single women in church, and the general expectation that Real Christians are only adult if married?

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