Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
That's been my experience, in a range reaching from simply ignoring us to outright hostility. I've experienced this myself. and have observed it happening to others. It's a deeply intransigent form of misogyny.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's a form of misogyny that is matched by an equal level of misandry - single men are also pushed to the margins in white middle class churches.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:

quote:

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Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's a form of misogyny that is matched by an equal level of misandry - single men are also pushed to the margins in white middle class churches.

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Yes, it seems to apply to all singletons. I have been told that "I wasn't doing my duty to God" and that I shouldn't work with or talk to married women in the Church community without their husbands being present. Its flattering but I'm sure that most if not all women could actually control themselves in my presence.

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WTF???


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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think it's a reflection of the way that churches are really, really bad at moving out of their comfort zones and engaging with folks who aren't PLU (People Like Us).

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Yes, it seems to apply to all singletons. I have been told that "I wasn't doing my duty to God" and that I shouldn't work with or talk to married women in the Church community without their husbands being present. Its flattering but I'm sure that most if not all women could actually control themselves in my presence.

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LOL! But, seriously, what a load of judgmental, sexist crap. Sorry you were subjected to that. Why oh why do some churches insist on shooting their own, eh?

Well, these findings are depressing but not surprising. Having said that, I've never felt stigmatised as a single Christian woman in my circles.

However, there is an elephant in the room: sexuality. Specifically, celibate sexuality. I am currently committed to celibacy - not entirely through lack of opportunity to be otherwise, my vanity compels me to point out - but it seems to be blithely assumed by many evangelical Christians that their fellows who are celibates (for whatever reason, there are many variables) calmly sail through hormonal waters completely untroubled by a smidgeon of lust. (What planet do people live on? )

We've moved from being a culture that once judged people harshly for NOT being virgins (actually, make that women - it was never regarded as a big deal for men). And that is a good thing, because being a non-virgin is not the be-all and end-all and people certainly shouldn't be pilloried for it. But we've now become a culture where if someone actually takes biblical teaching on sexuality seriously, i.e. if they really are committed to the idea that they won't have sex before they are covenantally bound to another in marriage ... well, there is clearly something wrong with them.

I say our culture is out of whack.

Feminism has helped me in this regard: I can say my celibacy is a valid choice (which it is). So then, respect someone's choice. Don't assume they're weird, or pathological, or have never grown up, just because they're not having sex.

Over the years, I've worked out my own praxis on these issues, because I've yet to hear a helpful, rounded, grounded sermon on singleness and sexuality from any church I've ever attended. Christian singles are, IMO, left to sink or swim on their own.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think Laurelin is onto something.

I'd also suggest that there is a very unhealthy 'goldfish bowl' atmosphere in certain types of fellowship - particularly those which attract students or young, single professionals. They can't be seen to even be talking to someone of the opposite sex without the rest of the church showing a prurient interest or thinking that they're going to be walking down the aisle within the next five minutes ...

I s'pose this is inevitable to a certain extent. After all, we wouldn't have any Jane Austen novels if courtship and all that goes with it wasn't of interest ...

I don't know what you do about it, though.

I've seen single people of both sexes marginalised in church settings. I'm not sure whether it's worse for either sex, just different.

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As for the actions/attitudes of some paranoid women who see other women as would-be husband stealers - there is absolutely nothing to be done to make these people less objectionable and less paranoid.

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Originally posted by ken:
I'm not sure that churches are any different from society in general in this. I can't speak for women, not being one, but middle-aged and older single men are pretty much ignored everywhere. The general feeling is that any man who is single above the age of about mid-30s must either be sexually perverted, or more likely just a pathetic loser that no-one could fancy.

To be honest, churches are probably more tolerant than many other places of single men. Tolerant rather than welcoming I think. But then no-where much is welcoming for older men on their own, except maybe pubs.

And every now and again some brain-dead preacher trots out that trite old sermon about the supposed benefits of singleness and you find yourself wanting to bore their eyeballs out with hot pokers, slowly. And then preach to them about the positive side of blindness.

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

It occurs to me that we might also be nearing a sort of sweet spot for singles, where there are enough in a given church to form their own sub-community, like the young families or OAPs. Once there's a critical mass, it's much harder to ignore an entire group.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
More that women are naturally vile temptresses that innocent males cannot resist. At least until the magical ring of control is placed upon their finger.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Being single when everyone else is married is not a problem confined to church but, yes, sometimes one can feel kind of left out, especially if you're not single by choice. Quite what the answer is, I don't know. I'm not sure it's deliberate it's probably just that couples tend to socialise with other couples.

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Being single when everyone else is married is not a problem confined to church but, yes, sometimes one can feel kind of left out, especially if you're not single by choice. Quite what the answer is, I don't know. I'm not sure it's deliberate it's probably just that couples tend to socialise with other couples.

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Just to present a different perspective and not at all to discount your experience, it sometimes seems to me that singles imagine we married-with-children couples have a much more interesting social life than we actually do. Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes. We probably should-- it would be a great act of hospitality, and an enjoyable thing to do. But know that most of us don't. Most of us are up to our ears in supervising homework and ferrying kids to soccer practice and trying to pay the bills. Indeed, the single friends I have at church seem to me to have a much, much richer social life than I've had in years. Obviously, YMMV, and there may be real barriers/exclusion that I don't see because I'm too absorbed in My Own Little World (see above). But honestly, you're not missing out on a whole lot unless you want to come over to my house and negotiate another round of sibling disputes over who got the bigger slice of pizza.

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Singles are distrusted because they aren't "one of us" and are obviously either homewreckers or gay/lesbian,

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Even better if you can aspire to be both.


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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
(Whispers) Karl, cliffdweller is an innie, not an outie.

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Posted                       

I have never suffered such insensitive, crass treatment as many of you obviously have.

And I know that married life is not a bed of roses. I know this. I'm not a clueless young maiden in a Jane Austen novel.

But.

quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
To this day, I cannot understand the church's attitude. The church gained several new members as a result of the singles group. AFAIK, all those members left when the single group fell apart for lack of support from the church.

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This confirms what I think: that many Christian singles are simply left to sink or swim on their own.

*shakes head*

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posted                      

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
(Whispers) Karl, cliffdweller is an innie, not an outie.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Singles are distrusted because they aren't "one of us" and are obviously either homewreckers or gay/lesbian,

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Even better if you can aspire to be both.

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What, gay and lesbian?

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

However, there is an elephant in the room: sexuality. [...] I've yet to hear a helpful, rounded, grounded sermon on singleness and sexuality from any church I've ever attended. Christian singles are, IMO, left to sink or swim on their own.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Just to present a different perspective and not at all to discount your experience, it sometimes seems to me that singles imagine we married-with-children couples have a much more interesting social life than we actually do. Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes.

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What he said.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
Within two months the singles group was kaput. No one, laity or clergy, from the church ever called to ask how I was doing, or offered the slightest help to the folks who had agreed to take on the tasks I'd had to delegate.

To this day, I cannot understand the church's attitude. The church gained several new members as a result of the singles group. AFAIK, all those members left when the single group fell apart for lack of support from the church.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
It occurs to me that we might also be nearing a sort of sweet spot for singles, where there are enough in a given church to form their own sub-community, like the young families or OAPs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
As the married become widows, the lifelong singles and the divorcee who has felt that label heavily over years all merge into one category of those who will lunch alone.

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(*) For values of "married" that include pretty much any long-term sexual relationship, or relationship presumed to be sexual by people not in it. The nature of the paperwork doesn't really matter, and hasn't really mattered in my lifetime. The number and gender of the participants matters less than it did and if things go on as they have been, they also might soon stop mattering at all.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes. We probably should-- it would be a great act of hospitality, and an enjoyable thing to do. But know that most of us don't.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
hey, if I took a break from the soccer carpooling/ laundry sorting/ homework supervising/ snotty nose wiping/ permission slip signing/ bake sale baking etc etc etc from time to time and actually ventured out into the outside world that I hear rumors may exist, maybe my innie/outie-ness would be a bit more evident.... [/QB]

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[qb] Just to present a different perspective and not at all to discount your experience, it sometimes seems to me that singles imagine we married-with-children couples have a much more interesting social life than we actually do. Sitcoms not withstanding, most of us rarely get an evening out or entertain in our homes.

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What he said.

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Well I was married-with-a-child once, and then I was single-with-a-child. And now I am single and living on my own. And before all that I was single-but-not-yet-married. And each state has different problems. (And each state has some of the same ones as well) But the particular problem we're talking about here, social acceptance, is easier for married-with-children than for divorced. Very much so. And I suspect its even harder for the never-married (*) No-one likes a loser, and if you have no sexual relationships at all you are assumed to be a massive loser.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by HCH:
While the title of the thread refers to single women, the article seems to refer to single adults of both sexes. Is this phenomenon simply noticed more when the single folk are female? Are the married women supposedly more insecure than their husbands?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by HCH:
While the title of the thread refers to single women, the article seems to refer to single adults of both sexes. Is this phenomenon simply noticed more when the single folk are female? Are the married women supposedly more insecure than their husbands?

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Porridge:
Call me picky, but I have never understood why any sane woman would WANT a married guy willing to cheat on his wife. What's there to keep him from cheating on me, too? Pfft.

If the wives are that insecure, I'd guess the relevant husbands had form. I'd steer clear of both spouses.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Worse was a book I came across in a Durham Christian bookshop. (I'm open to help from what ever source - or at least, I though I was.) This came up with a set of really weird stuff. After advising the single not to be alone with anyone of the opposite sex, and especially not horizontally, even in public as on beaches or in parks, it went off into fairy land as far as single women were concerned.

Apparently, while a single man can relate directly to God, a woman MUST have a man as her head, even if she is not married. So, it advised, a single woman must seek out a happily married couple where the man will agree to be her head for spiritual matters.

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I'm a man but my reflexive gut reaction to that is

[ 26. April 2013, 00:54: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

Posted                       

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
... I shouldn't work with or talk to married women in the Church community without their husbands being present ...

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Blimey, I think you're going to the wrong sort of church.

I can't really speak from experience (well, not recent anyway - I've been married for nearly 25 years) but I can think of a couple of single women (one single, 30s, one divorced, 40s) in our congregation who regard us as their family. One has involved herself by being a deputy warden and sidesperson, the other sings in the choir and acts as a tour guide.

I'd be very surprised if either of them felt that they were isolated, but then ours is a particularly friendly shack.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music