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Source: (consider it) Thread: Any INFJs on the Ship?
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Jesus was evidently INFJ

It's just so right.

Comments like this aren't exactly helping me in my quest to say that Myers-Briggs doesn't inevitably end up in self-flattery...

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MSHB
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# 9228

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Nobody has any idea what Aristotle or Kant's MBTI profiles were, nor Julius Caesar's, nor Shakespeare's nor that of any other famous person from history. Those books or websites that purport to list 'famous people who were XXXXs' merely reveal that their writers are facile.

I think this is literally false. We do have some idea of the personalities of famous people in history - especially when we have many writings from the persons themselves and also from their contemporaries who knew them or met them repeatedly.

I would agree that we cannot be certain, but to say that "nobody has any idea" (my emphasis) is an exaggeration. We might as well give up history, and that particular branch of history called biography, if we can have no idea of the personalities of famous people.

I have studied Kant at graduate level over a number of years. I am not an expert, but I am aware of many observations about his singular personal habits and preferences - he was an unusual personality with a number of strongly marked preferences. Maybe he was a sensate feeling person who was deliberately lying to history, but I would have no particular qualms about describing Kant as an NT.

Of course, I haven't looked through all his Nachlässe (literary remains, leftover papers), so maybe I have overlooked a completed MBTI that he left behind. Without that we won't know exactly and for certain what his MBTI profile was - but we would still have some idea.

It would be odd indeed if a person's MBTI profile bore no relation to other descriptions of their personality.

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CuppaT
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# 10523

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re: the op, yes.

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By far the best book on the Enneagram I ever saw was persuasive precisely because the detailed description of a personality type encompassed not only all the best things about myself, but also the worst things about myself, and made clear that I was capable of both.

I've done the Enneagram test two or three times over the years and recognized very little of the "description" of myself it came out with.

What worries me is that these things are sometimes used as part of the criteria for job applications. There's no substitute for seeing and assessing a person in real life, even if it is usually necessarily based on half an hour's conversation where they're trying to impress and have the glowing endorsements of a couple of people you've never met or heard of.

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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734

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As an INTJ I would apparently be a good military leader... I remember a career test I did at school (20 years ago now [Eek!] ) suggested a career as a fish farmer [Confused]

But I have to say the description of INTJ fits me better than any other, and my line of work (organisational development) is also one of the suggestions!

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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posted by Orfeo:
quote:

I simply don't agree with this idea that everyone walks around interpreting themselves in the most flattering possible way to begin with. I sure as hell don't. Most people I know don't. I only know one or two people that arguably DO go around flattering themselves.

But we do; we all do it. For instance, ask anyone if they are good humoured or have a good sense of humour, and everyone to a man will say, 'Yes of course'. But you could be the most humourless individual on the planet, yet because you have a different opinion of how you see yourself as opposed to how others see you, you can still hold to that delusion without any internal conflict whatsoever. It's why things like astrology work for people, because they can essentially read into it whatever they like and see it as a mirror reflecting their own desires and personality back to them - but only as they see it.

The whole point of Myers Briggs is that it is a personality test, but it is totally ineffective if you are only doing it in relation to yourself. If, say, you were able to do the test yourself and then have maybe four other people do it about you, the result would be incredibly different, and possibly more enlightening. But as it is, it is nothing more than a mirror and actually teaches you nothing. Surely the whole idea behind any personality test of this type is to raise self awareness about yourself - both the good and the bad - in helping you to understand how others might see you and your actions and decisions and the disparity that exists between how you see yourself and how you justify your actions, and how others see you and interpret your actions. But Myers Briggs doesn't do that, so I just can't see how it can serve any practical purpose.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Jesus was evidently INFJ

It's just so right.

Comments like this aren't exactly helping me in my quest to say that Myers-Briggs doesn't inevitably end up in self-flattery...
Well, here's a story against myself which still makes me laugh.

Mrs B and I went on this course over twenty years ago, more out of curiosity than anything else, and came back laughing and talking about our differences in a new way. One of the early exercises (Saturday morning) was to pair up extraverts with extraverts and introverts with introverts to compare notes about a topic. I had a great chat with another extravert (we probably both talked at once) and on the way to coffee, we noted our wives (both introverts, also paired) were talking to one another in the coffee queue. Well, we bounded in and immediately began unpacking enthusiastically our own conversation. They both burst out laughing, said in unison "Go Away!". so we took ourselves sheepishly to the back of the queue. Afterwards, my wife came up to me smiling, said "I know that was a bit rude, but it was so funny. We were talking about the fact that both of you have this annoying habit of taking over conversations, and just at that point you both tiggered in .."

The penny dropped! As it did, for both of us, about a lot of things that weekend.

BTW I'm not saying all extraverts do have that tendency, but the weekend theme helped a lot by providing a framework for understanding ourselves in relation to one another (and others).

[ 27. April 2013, 09:05: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
you both tiggered in ..

I love that expession!

I am E X100000000 and find social interaction very tiring. Reigning myself in and allowing others to speak is a constant, exhausting challenge. Meeting new people is easy though - I can ask just the right question to get them talking.

But if you need someone to lighten proceedings and get the group belly laughing, I'm your woman.

[Smile]

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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I think I was an INFJ last time I was tested. I think I am nobody's boss: the grammar school pupils I teach are not employees, though they usually follow my orders!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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IIRC I'm INFJ.

I am also a Leo, and my special Tarot card is the Star. I reckon those last two bits of information say more about me than Myers-Briggs.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Sir Kevin
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# 3492

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I think astrology and tarot cards are malarkey.

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
What worries me is that these things are sometimes used as part of the criteria for job applications.

Oh God, really? That's pathetic.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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Yes. However, the kind of company that goes in for that kind of profiling is one I probably wouldn't accept a job offer for. People can and do pigeonhole each other but to be labelled right at the outset, before you'd even started there, would be too depressing.

[ 27. April 2013, 14:19: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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That is terrible! The best of tests are merely part of a set of tools. Overly rely on them and you become a tool.

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That is terrible! The best of tests are merely part of a set of tools. Overly rely on them and you become a tool.

That link is slightly surprising. Shipmates, being good churchgoers of course would not do such a thing, but over here, it's not unusual to liken someone idiomatically, invariably in an uncomplimentary way, to a specifically male part of the body. That certainly applies to describing someone as a 'tool'. It's sufficiently odd that an urban dictionary doesn't refer to this, that it suggests it doesn't carry that overtone in North America.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
you both tiggered in ..

I love that expession!

I am E X100000000 and find social interaction very tiring...
But if you need someone to lighten proceedings and get the group belly laughing, I'm your woman.

[Smile]

You say that as if it's a good thing, it may be for some - but not all.

You may find that strong introverts do not need someone to lighten the proceedings.

When someone wants to be life and soul of the party I want to be at a different party.

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blog

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Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
# 12799

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Same here.

There is a tendency in extroverts to assume that introverts need to have their (perceived) deficiencies remedied one way or another.

Conversely, the introvert's reaction to the extrovert being very extrovert-y is generally more along the lines of 'they should leave me alone'.

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It turns out that if you do a Google search for 'INFJ' images you get a ridiculous amount of poster art.

Some of which I find more personally appropriate than others.

I assume the same applies to other types.

I also came across this which I enjoyed immensely, especially point 4 which says that INFJs are the kind of people that really like knowing their Myers-Briggs type. [Big Grin] Ahoy, Mudfrog! [Big Grin]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

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I think I was an INTJ who has developed into an INFJ.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Jesus was evidently INFJ

It's just so right.

Comments like this aren't exactly helping me in my quest to say that Myers-Briggs doesn't inevitably end up in self-flattery...
Oh dear. Sorry, I was joking.
It was a response to the other comment about people ascribing personality types to famous dead people.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
What worries me is that these things are sometimes used as part of the criteria for job applications.

Oh God, really? That's pathetic.
Sure is; it's the kind of HR abuse I was referring to myself.

The course I was on quite specifically ruled out that sort of approach to job selection and it is one of the training points in the MBTI course for trainers. Any of the 16 types may have the aptitude and wherewithal for any job. Preferences are not the same as capabilities. Even if there is some correlation, that says nothing about the worth of any specific job candidate. It's a straightforward "equal opportunities" argument.

The point was made emphatically at the beginning of the course I was on, and beautifully reinforced at the end, when all four course presenters announced that they were all introverts who had spent the last two days presenting, meeting with and listening to 50 strangers. (BTW I've done some group training and they all had considerable expertise). Although interactive training is clearly a gregarious activity, that does not mean that folks who prefer introversion cannot do the role well.

But they may pay a price. This was summed up in a lovely story that a two of the presenters (who were married to one another) told. They recognised there was quite a high cost to them of "projection and association" and their preferences meant that they paid a somewhat higher price for that than if they preferred extraversion. So their routine when they arrived home was to give themselves a lot of space and quiet.

After they had arrived back from a previous course, they were both "resting" (in different rooms) when the phone rang and their son answered. A relative was ringing. The son replied "Oh they've just arrived back from that Waverley Abbey course they do. At least, their bodies have. Their minds will arrive in a couple of hours time, I should think. Try later ...".

Purg in Heaven? Well, that was always the risk with this thread.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It turns out that if you do a Google search for 'INFJ' images you get a ridiculous amount of poster art.

Some of which I find more personally appropriate than others.

I assume the same applies to other types.

I also came across this which I enjoyed immensely, especially point 4 which says that INFJs are the kind of people that really like knowing their Myers-Briggs type. [Big Grin] Ahoy, Mudfrog! [Big Grin]

Is that because of the sense of exclusivity and superiority that being one of only 2% and not just one of the hoi polloi gives one.

I'm not INFJ but I can identify with several of the personality traits that TyKesMom describes as being specific to her, Orfeo, Mudfrog et al. I also have an untidy desk.

As for this, which I found by googling 'INFJ images' it represents exactly the sort of Kr*p I was criticising earlier. Who knows what Plato was? Who claims they can tell? Does anyone know even whether in his day to day life, he preferred to have structure or go with the flow, whether he arrived in the Agora punctually or not, yet alone whether he decided whether to go there today on the basis of data or intuition?

Incidentally, Ariston and MSHB, if Kant was famous for the regularity of his habits, he's very unlikely to have been intP.

If you read down the page, you find even the experts can't agree to what type to allocate most of these people, which, as I said earlier, only demonstrates further why it is a spurious exercise.


Myers Briggs is a useful tool for understand why we approach life differently, why people bicker, and why one responds to some things but not others. But it is not a universal nostrum.

Curiously, those who criticise it for being based on peoples' assessment of themselves, and therefore not objective, are actually missing the point. What it is trying to measure is your own preferences, not how other people think you are, or what you are objectively. Despite the claims made for it, it's either misrepresenting or misunderstanding it to say it measures 'your personality'. It's not asking that, but 'how do you prefer to do things?'

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think I was an INTJ who has developed into an INFJ.

I did that the other way round.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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# 1458

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Here is a disclaimer that i send my directees after they have done 'the test':

It’s important to point out that:
Myers Briggs started out as a tool for teachers working with children who have different learning styles.
Nobody fits one of the 16 categories exactly. The descriptors are based on the average from a sample of people.
It is descriptive, not prescriptive.
It is not like a horoscope that suggests a fixed identity – we change throughout life – maturity might bring an increase in less dominant ways of dealing with the world e.g. an introvert becomes more outgoing; a perceiver becomes better at deadlines.
It describes our preferred way of being and behaving – in real life we often act in ways that we would not normally choose, often because of circumstances. It is often good to leave our comfort zone.
Some use it to select candidates for job interviews – this is a mistake since the culture of a company can become inflexible without people who challenge the status quo.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I think astrology and tarot cards are malarkey.

So's MB - modern superstition with a thin veneer of pseudo-science.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is that because of the sense of exclusivity and superiority that being one of only 2% and not just one of the hoi polloi gives one.

In a sense, yes. Because if you spend large parts of your life feeling like you're weird and unusual, it's quite nice to have it suggested that this is because you really ARE unusual and not because you really ought to fit in better.

Also, for the second time, having an untidy desk is not a uniquely INFJ trait, it's an unusual thing for a J person to have. Neither are any of the other traits likely to be totally and utterly unique. It's the overall combination, and also the drives and motivations for some things tend to differ.

[ 28. April 2013, 15:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I think astrology and tarot cards are malarkey.

So's MB - modern superstition with a thin veneer of pseudo-science.
Do feel free to elaborate. Modern superstition strikes me as an odd phrase to use about what is essentially no more than a system for classifying the diversities of human preferences. It's hardly a superstition to believe that human preferences are diverse.

Or perhaps you think it is? Or maybe it's the Jungian background? Dunno really, but personally I would be very happy to hear the basis for your assertion.

[ 28. April 2013, 22:07: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Because if you spend large parts of your life feeling like you're weird and unusual, it's quite nice to have it suggested that this is because you really ARE unusual and not because you really ought to fit in better.

This.

As an INTP, I'm not quite as unusual as orfeo. According the this data, only 1.5% of people are INFJ, less than half the number of people who are INTPs (3.3%). Still though, with 16 categories, that's still a lot less that than the 6.75% you'd expect if they were all the same size. With the exception of EI (which is pretty much a 50-50 split) all three of my other letters are the minority letters. Ns are particularly rare, at just one quarter of the population.

It's also helpful in understanding how some things I'm bad at are the other side of the thin pancake from things I'm unusually gifted at. For instance, I've always been uncomfortable with busy downtown driving, more than most people, as well as with sports that require quick reactions. Learning that that fits with being an IN was very useful: taking in details from the outside world is just not what I'm wired to do well. Knowing that that's the flipside of being able to make connections and spot patterns quickly, and being very aware of my inner life, makes it a lot easier to accept. It also makes it easier to be grateful for and understanding of people who are better at me than certain things and worse at other things. We really do have gifts differing.

It's also a helpful way to become more aware of my blindspots and what I need to do to push myself outside of my comfort zone, simply by naming that comfort zone more accurately. It's definitely helped me become more aware of my need to find sensate past-times that I actually enjoy and give my N a rest from time to time.

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Ariel
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# 58

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After some discussion backstage, the hosts are agreed that this is now looking more like a Purgatory thread, so I'll just move this over there.

Thanks all,

Ariel
Heaven Host

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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The use of this tool to change what people do always struck me as ludicrous. Equally, the idea that "well we are all xxxx, so therefore you can't fit". When I suggested that wasn't the case, then I'd get, "Well, you're an INFP so of course you would feel that way." Wisdom need not apply, it seems.

Like much of knowledge, a little bit is more dangerous then nothing. I would say that the knowledge of knowing how an extrovert and an introvert act has been helpful. The rest really got me nowhere, either when I was managing people or when I was working within a team.

[ 28. April 2013, 20:09: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
rather than descend to a purgatorial debate about why MBTI is crap from those who don;'t understand either themselves or MBTI.

The prejudice of the position indicated by this statement is exactly equal to the position it criticises.

[ 28. April 2013, 20:52: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Barnabas62
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Given the new location, the long Wiki article may be helpful in further considerations about the utility of the MBTI.

It might be worth highlighting the following list of precepts and ethics which form an important part of the MBTI (and, unfortunately, are frequently discounted or ignored).

quote:

The following precepts are generally used in the ethical administration of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator:

Type not trait
The MBTI sorts for type; it does not indicate the strength of ability. The questionnaire allows the clarity of a preference to be ascertained (Bill clearly prefers introversion), but not the strength of preference (Jane strongly prefers extraversion) or degree of aptitude (Harry is good at thinking). In this sense, it differs from trait-based tools such as 16PF. Type preferences are polar opposites: a precept of MBTI is that people fundamentally prefer one thing over the other, not a bit of both.
Own best judge
Individuals are considered the best judge of their own type. While the MBTI questionnaire provides a Reported Type, this is considered only an indication of their probable overall Type. A Best Fit Process is usually used to allow respondents to develop their understanding of the four dichotomies, to form their own hypothesis as to their overall Type, and to compare this against the Reported Type. In more than 20% of cases, the hypothesis and the Reported Type differ in one or more dichotomies. Using the clarity of each preference, any potential for bias in the report, and often, a comparison of two or more whole Types may then help respondents determine their own Best Fit.
No right or wrong
No preference or total type is considered better or worse than another. They are all Gifts Differing, as emphasized by the title of Isabel Briggs Myers' book on this subject.
Voluntary
It is considered unethical to compel anyone to take the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. It should always be taken voluntarily.
Confidentiality
The result of the MBTI Reported and Best Fit type are confidential between the individual and administrator and, ethically, not for disclosure without permission.
Not for selection
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way" (emphasis original). Since all types are valuable, and the MBTI measures preferences rather than aptitude, the MBTI is not considered a proper instrument for purposes of employment selection. Many professions contain highly competent individuals of different types with complementary preferences.
Importance of proper feedback
Individuals should always be given detailed feedback from a trained administrator and an opportunity to undertake a Best Fit exercise to check against their Reported Type. This feedback can be given in person or, where this is not practical, by telephone or electronically.



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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That is terrible! The best of tests are merely part of a set of tools. Overly rely on them and you become a tool.

That link is slightly surprising. Shipmates, being good churchgoers of course would not do such a thing, but over here, it's not unusual to liken someone idiomatically, invariably in an uncomplimentary way, to a specifically male part of the body. That certainly applies to describing someone as a 'tool'. It's sufficiently odd that an urban dictionary doesn't refer to this, that it suggests it doesn't carry that overtone in North America.
For edification purpose, the Urban Dictionary is international. What it is not is peer reviewed, complete, consistent, etc. Indeed, it makes the most aggrandising, self-published articles on Wikipedia seem the epitome of rigor.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Barnabas62
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[Big Grin] @lilBuddha

We're all our Own Best Judge of the value of psychometric tests?

Or does reliance on one's own best judgment make one a different type of tool?

[ENFJ = Every New Fad Junkie?]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Desert Daughter
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My biggest qualm with the way the MBTI is commonly used is that the four-letter codes as such do not express the degree of a trait. So, if for example the I/E scale is of 200 points (from 100 I to 100 E), someone who scores only 15 on I would be "I" and equally someone who scores 15 on E as "E", but they are only 30 units apart, whereas a "fellow" I who's scoring 95 on I is really very much a different kind of animal, something that does not come out in the "standard" code.

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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
My biggest qualm with the way the MBTI is commonly used is that the four-letter codes as such do not express the degree of a trait. So, if for example the I/E scale is of 200 points (from 100 I to 100 E), someone who scores only 15 on I would be "I" and equally someone who scores 15 on E as "E", but they are only 30 units apart, whereas a "fellow" I who's scoring 95 on I is really very much a different kind of animal, something that does not come out in the "standard" code.

Probably, but it may just indicate that a person knows themself better.

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orfeo

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I think any decent system has to acknowledge the existence of degrees within any particular 'type' or whatever name the box has.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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ExclamationMark
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I am just so surprised that you (Mudfrog) are prepared to consider something like mb which has roots in (non Christian) Jungian neo philosophy. Is it standard SA practice?

I'm not at all convinced that Jesus categorises people by these kind of behavioural or character types so I'm not going to start, not even on myself.

I've always refused to participate in such things.

When you start with one set of classification within the church you quickly move on to others and strat drawing (inappropriate and unnecessary lines) and divisions.

[ 29. April 2013, 11:54: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I'm wondering ken hasn't seen this yet. He's usually all over this sort of - ahem - disputably based quasi-science like a cheap suit.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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MSHB
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Incidentally, Ariston and MSHB, if Kant was famous for the regularity of his habits, he's very unlikely to have been intP.

As I never claimed he was intP, or indeed anything more than NT (xNTx if you like) I have no idea why you addressed your comment to me.

You adopted an extreme position ("Nobody has any idea ...") which I argue is untenable. I don't think profiling historical figures is an exact science, and I am sure that the quality of such profiles varies from character to character, depending (among other things) on how much information we possess about them.

I would certainly take any profiles as speculative to varying degrees. I well remember when Christian books about "the four humours" or "temperaments" were doing the rounds, and some of these contained assertions like "Moses was a melancholic" - presented in such a way, moreover, as to suggest that Moses was the classic or typical example of the "melancholic" temperament.

I never really could see any clear types in the biblical characters who allegedly exemplified particular temperaments. Even with most historical figures I don't know enough about their personal lives and preferences to make any reasoned guesses about their "types". I only commented about the "NT" aspects of Kant because I have studied his philosophy at some length. I would also be prepared to say that Karl Marx exemplifies the "choleric" temperament, based on reading a variety of texts written by him (and ignoring popular stereotypes about Marxism, communism, etc). However I cannot make any particular assertions about Hegel or Buber, even though they are two other philosophers that I have studied or read in some detail.

The opposite of "nobody has any idea" is not "we have a clear idea", it is simply "we have at least some ideas supported by evidence, whether or not we have enough to make a complete or certain profile".

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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
[Big Grin] @lilBuddha

We're all our Own Best Judge of the value of psychometric tests?

Or does reliance on one's own best judgment make one a different type of tool?

[ENFJ = Every New Fad Junkie?]

I think it is over-reliance. We are the "man behind the curtain," but we often wear very distorted specs, refuse to examine the constructs we are manipulating and/or believe the illusion we attempt to create.

The guide to one's journey is internal, but only a fool ignores the signposts on the path.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm wondering ken hasn't seen this yet. He's usually all over this sort of - ahem - disputably based quasi-science like a cheap suit.

Me too. Maybe he's on a course?

lilBuddha

orfeo and Desert Daughter's observation strike me as pretty helpful. Speaking as someone who has actually derived some value from this "disputably based quasi-science" - and who happily puts astrology and tarot card readings in the "load of tosh" pile as well - MBTI does strike me as too binary in its view of the preferences associated with its E/I S/N T/F and J/P poles. I don't have a problem with using the poles as useful indicators of personality traits.

But there are types within types. My wife observes that she's one type of J and I'm another (someone who prefers a quite disorderly form of order, compared with her, but who never misses a train, a boat, a bus, or a plane).

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I am just so surprised that you (Mudfrog) are prepared to consider something like mb which has roots in (non Christian) Jungian neo philosophy. Is it standard SA practice?

It was started by two Roman Catholics.

It is used in mainline denominations.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
My biggest qualm with the way the MBTI is commonly used is that the four-letter codes as such do not express the degree of a trait.

May be 'commonly' used that way but that is to use it wrongly.

The results of the 'test' give percentages and detailed analysis differentiates in some detail the meaning of these percentages.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
rather than descend to a purgatorial debate about why MBTI is crap from those who don;'t understand either themselves or MBTI.

The prejudice of the position indicated by this statement is exactly equal to the position it criticises.
Thus thread started as a sort of 'support' thread. On every other instance of MBTI on The Ship, it descends into a slagging off of MBTI. When delving into the slaggers off, it is clear that they know little about it - I could give chapter of verse if i had the time and access to previous threads.

I am saddened that this thread has been moved to Purg. because that has started the avalanche of nay-sayers.

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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
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According to The Wright Stuff this morning on Channel 4, introverts are better than extroverts at sex!

And at being bosses - maybe be are good at telling off extroverts for talking too much when they should be getting on with their work!

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Barnabas62
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One of the reasons the thread was moved to Purgatory was because there had already been some criticism of the methodology while the thread was in Heaven. It seemed better to the Hosts to allow both sorts of comments free rein, which made Purgatory the right place.

Shipmates are free to make either kind of comment - or both - as they see fit. The Wikipedia article I linked provides information about the MBTI methodoloy and also some of the criticisms it has received from various sources.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I am just so surprised that you (Mudfrog) are prepared to consider something like mb which has roots in (non Christian) Jungian neo philosophy. Is it standard SA practice?

It was started by two Roman Catholics.

It is used in mainline denominations.

And that makes it Ok?

It was started by a mother and daughter who relied on another's work - he (Jung) was a convinced and vocal atheist.

I've argued (pretty successfully I may add) for it to be removed from use in one major denomination.

Why do we want to define and others and put them in litle boxes? I'm not defined by that stuff but by what I am in God.

[ 29. April 2013, 16:50: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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Barnabas62
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ExclamationMark

You say

quote:
Why do we want to define and others and put them in litle boxes?
I quoted this from the Precepts and Ethics governing the use of MBTI

quote:

The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"

You are labouring under a misunderstanding. Which may have been produced by the MBTI being presented by other than an authorised trainer, for all I know. A lot of that goes on.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Hezekiah
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I always come out as INFJ. Apparently the most common forms of employment are teaching and the church. Makes sense since I'm a teacher and a former seminarian!

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2 Kings 3:27

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