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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Any INFJs on the Ship?
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
I'm not INFJ but INFP, and it seems that INFPs are particularly interested in the MBTI because they've felt such outsiders all their lives (I've also heard INFJs say this, of course!). Far from being a waste of time, pseudo science, utter claptrap or the many other pejorative statements I've seen on this thread, knowledge of the MBTI can be literally a lifesaver for some.
For many INFPs, the discovery that they're not total failures of human beings but just 'members' of a less common type is both freeing and rewarding. I attribute my escape from a lifetime of despair to discovering the MBTI and my 'type'. I know plenty of other INFPs who feel the same way. It also enables us to realize where we're going wrong in our responses to others, and why other people see things differently. I can't see what's wrong with that - anything that improves mental health has to be a good thing.
I certainly don't think it's set in stone or should define us - I don't fit the INFP type in some ways, especially not the 'most INFPs are spiritual', since I'm a non-spiritual atheist - or should be used as a way to winnow out potential employees, but it is helpful, and it is clearly far more helpful to some types than others. I'm quite reluctant to bring up my interest in the MBTI with non INFP/INFJ/ENFJ friends, as I can be pretty sure most of them will either dismiss it outright or have no interest. This thread is in itself an interesting example of our differences.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"
So why is it used in that way in appointments and assessments for posts?
Anyway, if that isn't its purpose, why waste time and money on it at all?
What is the purpose then?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
I'm quite reluctant to bring up my interest in the MBTI with non INFP/INFJ/ENFJ friends, as I can be pretty sure most of them will either dismiss it outright or have no interest. This thread is in itself an interesting example of our differences.
I'm not unsympathetic to your discovery about yourself and I'm glad you've found help. But, what you said is true: to those of us on the outside its no less mumbo jumbo than faith is to an atheist - in fact, some of us have seen it misused to the extent of abuse.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"
So why is it used in that way in appointments and assessments for posts?
It should not be used that way. Back to the list of Precepts and Ethics. Here's the direct quote in full
quote:
Not for selection
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way" (emphasis original). Since all types are valuable, and the MBTI measures preferences rather than aptitude, the MBTI is not considered a proper instrument for purposes of employment selection.
It is a specific misuse of MBTI to use it in job selection processes. That's been said earlier in the thread.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Anyway, if that isn't its purpose, why waste time and money on it at all?
What is the purpose then?
In the commercial world it is quite often used, like Belbin, in exploring issues of group dynamics. Why do some people get on more easily than others in teams? (I know a professional HR trainer who uses it in this context and who has spoken out strongly in her own organisation against any use in job selection or assessment. Preferences are not aptitudes.)
Similar arguments apply to voluntary organisations (e.g. churches). The MBTI can help people explore the effects of human diversity and preferences with a view to promoting a better, less judgmental, understanding of differences.
Some counsellors have also made use of it in marriage counselling, to help couples understand their differences.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
A big thank-you to B62 for posting the information about ethical use of the MBTI – an important reminder in any discussion of this subject.
To reply to several comments by Exclamation Mark; quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"
So why is it used in that way in appointments and assessments for posts?
Because unethical people use the MBTI unethically. Is it really news that people on this planet do things that are unethical? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) The MBTI is a tool; so is a knife. People use knives unethically to hurt people. So knives should be banned? Hardly. Just used responsibly. quote:
What is the purpose then?
Self-awareness, of one’s instinctive tendencies and biases, of one’s similarities to and differences from other people. One thing that varies greatly between Myers-Briggs types is how much the people of those different types are interested in self-awareness.
quote:
I am just so surprised that you (Mudfrog) are prepared to consider something like mb which has roots in (non Christian) Jungian neo philosophy.
quote:
It was started by a mother and daughter who relied on another's work - he (Jung) was a convinced and vocal atheist.
So because Jung was an atheist he was mentally incapable of developing any valid understanding of the world or people in it? I’m sure that all our atheist shipmates would wish to disagree very indignantly.
quote:
Why do we want to define and others and put them in little boxes? I'm not defined by that stuff but by what I am in God.
Well, I found that discovering my MB type was very affirming of who I am – another positive value in its use. It explained why I felt out-of-place in the churches I’d been involved in, and a misfit with the model of Christian spirituality with which I had been presented. My God-created nature was far more affirmed by the process of MB Type discovery than had ever been affirmed by other Christians. So I can completely identify with Amika: quote:
...the discovery that they're not total failures of human beings but just 'members' of a less common type is both freeing and rewarding. I attribute my escape from a lifetime of despair to discovering the MBTI and my 'type'.
Perhaps I should disclose an interest in that subsequently I trained to be a Myers-Briggs practitioner. So I am aware of the ethical considerations for its use.
Angus (INTP, BTW) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
A big thank-you to B62 for posting the information about ethical use of the MBTI – an important reminder in any discussion of this subject.
To reply to several comments by Exclamation Mark; quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"
So why is it used in that way in appointments and assessments for posts?
Because unethical people use the MBTI unethically. Is it really news that people on this planet do things that are unethical? The MBTI is a tool; so is a knife. People use knives unethically to hurt people. So knives should be banned? Hardly. Just used responsibly. quote:
What is the purpose then?
Self-awareness, of one’s instinctive tendencies and biases, of one’s similarities to and differences from other people. One thing that varies greatly between Myers-Briggs types is how much the people of those different types are interested in self-awareness.
quote:
I am just so surprised that you (Mudfrog) are prepared to consider something like mb which has roots in (non Christian) Jungian neo philosophy.
quote:
It was started by a mother and daughter who relied on another's work - he (Jung) was a convinced and vocal atheist.
So because Jung was an atheist he was mentally incapable of developing any valid understanding of the world or people in it? I’m sure that all our atheist shipmates would wish to disagree very indignantly.
quote:
Why do we want to define and others and put them in little boxes? I'm not defined by that stuff but by what I am in God.
Well, I found that discovering my MB type was very affirming of who I am – another positive value in its use. It explained why I felt out-of-place in the churches I’d been involved in, and a misfit with the model of Christian spirituality with which I had been presented. My God-created nature was far more affirmed by the process of MB Type discovery than had ever been affirmed by other Christians. So I can completely identify with Amika: quote:
...the discovery that they're not total failures of human beings but just 'members' of a less common type is both freeing and rewarding. I attribute my escape from a lifetime of despair to discovering the MBTI and my 'type'.
Perhaps I should disclose an interest in that subsequently I trained to be a Myers-Briggs practitioner. So I am aware of the ethical considerations for its use.
Angus (INTP, BTW)
I wouldn't dispute the value and help that you (and others) have found from mb. But (and it's a big but) I don't see God classifying us in this way and I've seen it abused (and have been on the receiving end of this personally). It's true to claim that it's not meant to be used to classify and to emply but the fact that it is means we have to recognise the danger of it. In any event using it to explain or interpret group dynamics is actually classifiction and pidgeonholing under another name. It also doesn't need mb to "persuade" people that they're different and not failures. (In my more radical moments I really rather revel in being a failure in some peoples eyes because it reminds me of what really matters ...).
Actually it's not so much Jung's atheism I reject more his understanding of human personality that is at odds with God's IMHO.
Since mb is based on this understanding of the human psyche ( which I believe to be wrong), then I reject it on a methodological basis.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"
So why is it used in that way in appointments and assessments for posts?
It should not be used that way. Back to the list of Precepts and Ethics. Here's the direct quote in full
quote:
Not for selection
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way" (emphasis original). Since all types are valuable, and the MBTI measures preferences rather than aptitude, the MBTI is not considered a proper instrument for purposes of employment selection.
It is a specific misuse of MBTI to use it in job selection processes. That's been said earlier in the thread.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Anyway, if that isn't its purpose, why waste time and money on it at all?
What is the purpose then?
In the commercial world it is quite often used, like Belbin, in exploring issues of group dynamics. Why do some people get on more easily than others in teams? (I know a professional HR trainer who uses it in this context and who has spoken out strongly in her own organisation against any use in job selection or assessment. Preferences are not aptitudes.)
Similar arguments apply to voluntary organisations (e.g. churches). The MBTI can help people explore the effects of human diversity and preferences with a view to promoting a better, less judgmental, understanding of differences.
Some counsellors have also made use of it in marriage counselling, to help couples understand their differences.
Please see my reply to A Pilgrim above. i don't dispute the intention but IME mb has been used - and used often - for the wrong reasons in the wrong way. I also question the fundamental basis of it too as you'll see above: God doesn't pigeon hole humanity in this way, so why do we?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
...God doesn't pigeon hole humanity in this way, so why do we?
I would say that God understands us absolutely and perfectly.
Our understanding, however, falls somewhat short of His, and we do need assistance - not in order to pigeonhole anybody, but in order to appreciate, understand, empathise and live together in some degree of accord.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
God doesn't pigeon hole humanity in this way, so why do we?
Who is "we"?
And so far as "this way of pigeon-holing" is concerned, which part of 'the results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"' are you continuing to have difficulty with?
Let me join you whole-heartedly in your condemnation of would-be pigeon-holers. But this is a value-free psychometric test, that's all. I see no strait-jacket myself. But I do see a tool which can be, and has been, misused. A little learning can be a dangerous thing.
None of which has anything to do with any legitimate criticism of the methodology, of course. That's fair game here.
But I am pretty sure you're talking about the abuse of a tool, not how sharp (or how blunt, or even how useless) it is.
[ 30. April 2013, 04:49: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
... I also question the fundamental basis of it too as you'll see above: God doesn't pigeon hole humanity in this way, so why do we?
There are lots of examples of humanity being sorted into pigeon-holes in the Bible: sheep and goats, wise and foolish virgins, tares / chaff vs. wheat, etc. God seems to really like having just two categories, and the supposed consequences of being in the wrong category are far worse than not getting a job. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
God doesn't pigeon hole humanity in this way, so why do we?
I sometimes think that 16 pigeon holes are better than one big pigeon hole.
It is not uncommon for the dominant personality type (e.g. ESTJ in some cultures) to regard their personality as the one true way - THE pigeon hole. You are either a functional ESTJ or a dysfunctional ESTJ in those cultures. Having a much broader choice means that you can find a pigeon hole a little closer to your own personality, one that doesn't distort you so much.
In other words, the alternative to 16 pigeon holes, in practice, may well be one unspoken pigeon hole to which we are all expected to conform.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's a fact of life that some people enjoy these sorts of forms of analysis and self-reflection, and some people think it's a load of tosh.
It doesn't matter what kind of label you put on this, it is in and of itself a nice indicator of the fact that we're not all the same and have different approaches.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
My biggest qualm with the way the MBTI is commonly used is that the four-letter codes as such do not express the degree of a trait.
May be 'commonly' used that way but that is to use it wrongly.
The results of the 'test' give percentages and detailed analysis differentiates in some detail the meaning of these percentages.
Just picked this up. I'm not a trained administrator of MBTI so I'm not 100% sure of this, but I don't think leo is completely right here. Again, from the list of precepts and ethics in the Wiki article, is the precept which is said to apply.
quote:
Type not trait
The MBTI sorts for type; it does not indicate the strength of ability. The questionnaire allows the clarity of a preference to be ascertained (Bill clearly prefers introversion), but not the strength of preference (Jane strongly prefers extraversion) or degree of aptitude (Harry is good at thinking). In this sense, it differs from trait-based tools such as 16PF. Type preferences are polar opposites: a precept of MBTI is that people fundamentally prefer one thing over the other, not a bit of both. (italics by me)
I think this is in part a recognition of the fact that the questionnaire is a pretty blunt instrument and people find that the Reported Type (percentages and all) does not seem to identify their preferences. In my case I clearly prefer E and N (and always score very high percentages on both) but the F and the J are by no means so clear in reports. I've done the test a few times and on one occasion came out as T (by one percentage point). I always come out as J, but invariably by less than 10 percentage points. So the scores aren't completely clear. But my Best Fit preferences, based on personal reflection, are definitely F and J.
Also, it is as well to remember that these are preferences. Preferences may indeed be quite deep-seated in our natures, in the sense that they indicate the way we will generally go. But they can be altered by mood and circumstance, even by choice. Sometimes I get tired of extraverting and need space away from people, time for my inner life. Sometimes I need to get away from the orderly aspects of my life and just go with the flow. But that doesn't change my normal preferences.
So Best Fits are not perfect fits, nor are they an invariable reflection of our behaviour. We're a lot more variable than that, both within and across types.
So I think in those ways the MBTI does indeed recognise significant variations. To self-identify as a type does not rule out normal variability; it's just an indicator of what we are like. That's another reason why it is wrong to regard types as pigeon-holes. We're all free to act at variance with whatever type we perceive ourselves to be. That's not changed by scores in a psychometric test, though the results may give us some clearer insights into our general patterns of behaviour. In this respect, the MBTI is quite nuanced and flexible.
But it is a characteristic of the MBTI that it does see only 16 types and it does see the preferences as binary. That's what the guide says. If A. Pilgrim (who is a trained administrator) is watching, it might help to have his feedback on this point.
[ 30. April 2013, 06:46: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I'm not at all convinced that Jesus categorises people by these kind of behavioural or character types so I'm not going to start, not even on myself.
How did you manage to post this without a computer? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
To explain, Jesus didn't use a computer, so I'm not at all convinced that he would use such a device, and seeing that you consider his direct example to be the only thing worth considering, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider using a computer, phone or any other device that was unknown in his time. Otherwise, I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion about what Jesus would or wouldn't do.
And to lighten the mood, here's a funnier description of what the types really mean, and here's how they pray.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
That's about right. For what it's worth, I generally test out as INTP. So for me, the MBTI "helps" me in the following manner:
1. Help! I'm a nerd!
2. Ooo! MBTI tells me I'm an INTP
3. INTP types are nerds. I'm a nerd because I'm INTP
4. Help! I'm an INTP!
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I'm (IIRC)an INTJ. Can I be a 'nerd' too? (At least let me be a geek, if full nerdhood is not permitted!)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
Oh, I've just read the link 'what the types really mean' and see that I'm a 'Crackpot'. Fine.
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'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
I'm (IIRC)an INTJ. Can I be a 'nerd' too? (At least let me be a geek, if full nerdhood is not permitted!)
"INTJ: "Crackpot"
All facts which don't fit their theories are just wrong. The more all-encompassing and less applicable to reality the theories, the better."
I'm not saying whether this is evidence for or against the efficacy of the MBTI.
Wouldn't dare.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
You know, deep down, that I AM RIGHT. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Messiah. We win.
(I've seen the prayer one before.)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
without wanting to spoil the fun of surfing around online personality tests, may I suggest reading the Original (i.e., what Jung himself had to say especially on Introverts and Extroverts in his "Typology"). I found it eye-opening, spot-on and very amusing. I am an extreme Introvert and reading Jung almost made me feel good about it...
At least now I know what's wrong with the rest of the world ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
I'm not surprised to find that as a couple we're a Crackpot and a Messiah. I'm just surprised to find who's who.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
We're Busybody and Sidekick (spot on about her prayers ...).
Busybody? Moi? That made "She Who Must Be Obeyed" laugh.
"You! Have a plan for everyone else's life? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) "
So now, thanks to Gumby, this reminder list of overdue duties has suddenly appeared. "You might get busy with that lot..." Signing off before I die ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Happy to help, Barney! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I like the more negative, bitchy descriptions of the types, because they provide a motivation for quibbling and critical thinking that doesn't really exist when it's all nice, fluffy and positive. If you're pegged as INTJ, you wouldn't object to being called a Mastermind, but Crackpot is another matter. ENFP - Champion, or Muckraker? It makes people think a bit more carefully, which is a good thing.
In fact, if in some cruel alternative universe I was forced to run MBTI courses to pay for sins far more heinous than anything I can remember getting up to, I'd make those descriptions a central part of the course. The take-home message would be not just to take it all with a huuuuuge helping of salt, but to remember that these types are never a promise or a threat, and they're not even an excuse. But knowing ourselves (as much as is possible with MBTI) can help to work to our strengths, be aware of our weaknesses, and appreciate that there's no right way of thinking.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"
So why is it used in that way in appointments and assessments for posts?
Anyway, if that isn't its purpose, why waste time and money on it at all?
What is the purpose then?
For self-knowledge as part of spiritual direction. Life is more than work.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
My biggest qualm with the way the MBTI is commonly used is that the four-letter codes as such do not express the degree of a trait.
May be 'commonly' used that way but that is to use it wrongly.
The results of the 'test' give percentages and detailed analysis differentiates in some detail the meaning of these percentages.
Just picked this up. I'm not a trained administrator of MBTI so I'm not 100% sure of this, but I don't think leo is completely right here.
I am right, at least in as far as the version that I am trained to use. Percentages are very important for its interpretation - a 4 letter descriptor is not much use otherwise.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I see MBTI as a model, as there are many models. Any model has the potential of being able to say something about a human being, and I guess it can have its uses in this way. But I also believe that what any model can say about you is rather limited.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am right, at least in as far as the version that I am trained to use. Percentages are very important for its interpretation - a 4 letter descriptor is not much use otherwise.
Curiouser and curiouser, leo. Your further clarification is a flat contradiction of the Wiki article.
Here's the quote again.
quote:
Type not trait
The MBTI sorts for type; it does not indicate the strength of ability. The questionnaire allows the clarity of a preference to be ascertained (Bill clearly prefers introversion), but not the strength of preference (Jane strongly prefers extraversion) or degree of aptitude (Harry is good at thinking). In this sense, it differs from trait-based tools such as 16PF. Type preferences are polar opposites: a precept of MBTI is that people fundamentally prefer one thing over the other, not a bit of both. (key words and phrases emboldened by B62)
The percentage scores are not supposed to be used to determine the degree of a preference. At least, not in the standard MBTI model, according to Wiki.
So if your training taught you otherwise, maybe your training was in some variant of the standard model? Anyway, I remain puzzled.
The irony of this is that I rather wish the standard model did allow for (and attempt to measure) degrees of preferences, but the Wiki article is quite clear that it does not do that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
But knowing ourselves (as much as is possible with MBTI) can help to work to our strengths, be aware of our weaknesses, and appreciate that there's no right way of thinking.
Isn't this what the MBTI fans have been saying all along?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am right, at least in as far as the version that I am trained to use. Percentages are very important for its interpretation - a 4 letter descriptor is not much use otherwise.
Curiouser and curiouser, leo. Your further clarification is a flat contradiction of the Wiki article.
Here's the quote again.
quote:
Type not trait
The MBTI sorts for type; it does not indicate the strength of ability. The questionnaire allows the clarity of a preference to be ascertained (Bill clearly prefers introversion), but not the strength of preference (Jane strongly prefers extraversion) or degree of aptitude (Harry is good at thinking). In this sense, it differs from trait-based tools such as 16PF. Type preferences are polar opposites: a precept of MBTI is that people fundamentally prefer one thing over the other, not a bit of both. (key words and phrases emboldened by B62)
The percentage scores are not supposed to be used to determine the degree of a preference. At least, not in the standard MBTI model, according to Wiki.
So if your training taught you otherwise, maybe your training was in some variant of the standard model? Anyway, I remain puzzled.
The irony of this is that I rather wish the standard model did allow for (and attempt to measure) degrees of preferences, but the Wiki article is quite clear that it does not do that.
Even the "trained" can't agree!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]For self-knowledge as part of spiritual direction. Life is more than work.
Self knowledge is ok but beware of crossing the line to self absorption and narcisscism. Mb is not alone but like all analysis, if misused (as it seems it can be - as even our 2 course leaders on here, barnabas and leo can't agree), then it can lead to the idea that the world revolves you ...
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
That made me chuckle, ExclamationMark. But it's inaccurate.
I'm not trained - I just attended a course 20 years ago which explored the diversities of human personality. MB trainers' courses are a different matter - they are about training the potential trainers.
So as someone who finds the standard model interesting and has found some value in it, I'm just asking questions to clarify the nature of the standard model over a matter which has significance for others in this thread. I'm not that bothered what the "right answer" is, it might just be helpful to know what it is.
Now what's wrong with that? It's one of the general purposes of serious discussion.
[ 01. May 2013, 12:46: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
But knowing ourselves (as much as is possible with MBTI) can help to work to our strengths, be aware of our weaknesses, and appreciate that there's no right way of thinking.
Isn't this what the MBTI fans have been saying all along?
The more reasonable ones. I've always said there's some value in it, if done carefully and appropriately. But even if it isn't explicitly taught as such, it's clear that lots of people take it as a fixed diagnosis, or even permission to be an arsehole. That's the most egregious practical problem, so that's what I'd work on in my hypothetical evil twin universe.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
But even if it isn't explicitly taught as such, it's clear that lots of people take it as a fixed diagnosis, or even permission to be an arsehole. That's the most egregious practical problem
I agree entirely. I think in many ways that's a bigger issue than its Jungian origins or its binary structure. The precepts and ethics are all very well, but somehow, for far too many people, they get lost or left behind.
Human beings have quite sufficient propensities for labelling without any inadvertent help.
(Tasks got done, TGG, my lady sends her thanks.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
On the dialogue with leo.
My wife and I have a good friend who works as a professional trainer and one of the strings to her bow is Myers Briggs. She has taken approved training courses for trainers. She rang tonight on a personal matter and in the course of the conversation, I discussed the dialogue with leo. Basically she confirmed the Wiki article summary on precepts and ethics as accurate, observed that the questionnaire is not accurate enough to determine type in about a quarter of cases which is why the ethics require an effective briefing enabling people to self-select the Best Fit for them.
Allowing for inaccuracies however, she did observe that the percentage scores might give some initial indication about how easily people might be able to exercise the opposite (shadow) preference. If for example the questionnaire shows a close call between, for example, T and F, but the indication is a T preference, that person may be able to make a switch to values-based (rather than logic-based) judgment relatively easily. But because the preference is T, the person will still need to make more effort to process choices the values-based way. (Rather in the same way that a person who is naturally right handed but has some ambidexterity will be able to catch more easily with the left hand than someone who has little ambidexterity.)
Whether that is true or not will not however depend on the questionnaire result, but on the individual's innate preferences (which the questionnaire may not have captured accurately). At best the percentages are only a rough guide; the briefing for Best Fit will reveal just how rough.
That made sense to me at any rate. In practice, all of us can choose to exercise any of the preferences and some of us may be able to do this with more facility than others. But for each of us, and for each of the four pairs, one preference comes more naturally than the other. That's the theory.
[ 01. May 2013, 21:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
That sounds accurate to my experience. The test only got me half right actually: it got the IN right (which is pretty obvious) but had me as an FJ when I'm actually a TP. The things that the test is really trying to measure are things that people aren't generally that self-aware of (that self-awareness is actually what we're generally trying to increase), so it asks about lots of things which are strongly linked with what it's trying to measure but people are more aware of. For instance, who knows how strong their need for closure is (JP scale)? Most people know how tidy their desk is, though (J trait).
However, for various reasons, not every P has all the P traits and none of the J traits. (My desk is actually pretty neat, but that's because I've learnt that that's helpful, not because I naturally value it).
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
Another INFJ here and an INFJ clergyman (so true to form then.) Aren't we meant to be the rarest and most beautiful of types in MB?
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
My desk is a complete tip, and I see with horror a "clear desk policy" coming my way.
It could lead to a standoff. Seriously. They might as well ask me to grow an extra ear.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Explore your shadow side, Karl. You know it makes sense .. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Explore your shadow side, Karl. You know it makes sense ..
My shadow hates tidiness as well. We've chatted about it and he agrees with me. A tidy desk is the sign of a sick mind.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Now that's a proper use of MBTI. "Know thyself". Nice one, Karl. You should become a trainer ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My desk is a complete tip, and I see with horror a "clear desk policy" coming my way.
It could lead to a standoff. Seriously. They might as well ask me to grow an extra ear.
A desk is like an archeological dig; if the layers are disturbed, the meaning is lost.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I've been destroying up to 5-6 years of 'history' in my house now that I'm on leave...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A story for the non-filers among you, from that course I was on. A different part of the "P" preference world but this one got a whole room rocking.
Small groups of about 5 or 6 were formed to discuss an issue. First of all, the groups were made up of all "P" preferers or all "J" preferers. Then after about 10-15 minutes discussion, there were some inter-changes. 2 or 3 of the "J"s went to a "P" group and vice versa.
The group next to mine was "P" and they were joined by a very orderly looking "J", very neatly turned out, carrying a note-book with some clearly written and tidy notes. She sat down with the P group, arranged herself, and after some pleasantries she initiated the restart with
"Well, shall we compare notes".
One of the "P" people who hadn't moved, very casual in appearance, kind of sprawled in her chair, just looked across in vague disbelief.
"Notes?" she queried, "Notes?" she repeated slightly louder. The group (apart from the tidy "J") began to giggle, so did the group I was in, and the news of what had happened spread through the room. Pretty soon the giggles became outright laughter, the tidy "J" joined in, the exercise just got disupted, so the group instructors found out why. I'm sure the incident made its way into the teaching programme anecdotes.
No guesses for which of them had a very tidy in-tray and for which of them had no in-tray at all ..
[ 03. May 2013, 05:58: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Filing papers is simply putting them in a black hole imo ...
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
B - I can imagine that. I live in constant bewilderment that there are people who take notes during sermons.
I always wonder why. When are they ever going to read them? Do we get a month's warning of Judgement Day will all need to get them out to revise or something.
I take notes in meetings because you're meant to. They're mostly scribbles between the doodles. I usually lose them within a day.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I've occasionally tried to form theories about just why it is that INFJs are known for having a messy desk despite being 'J'.
The nearest I can get from my own experience is that the process of finding the 'right' place for things becomes too tiring and dispiriting when I have items that don't fit. Or when I haven't properly organised the system in which the items are supposed to fit. The reason I don't tidy up actual things for ages is that I haven't yet finished analysing the locations into which things should go - so I have nowhere to move them to.
And yes, I really, really want to look at each individual thing to consider where it would be best located. Don't you?
I suspect the key difference between P people with messy desks and INFJs with messy desks is that the INFJs feel distress that they haven't solved the problem yet.
EDIT: It really does help the process - whether cleaning a desk or an entire house - if you've left things lying around for several years until it's possible for even an INFJ to quickly and decisively conclude that an item is now totally redundant and can be discarded without risk.
In the last couple of weeks, in various spots, I think I found all 6 of the last 6 Christmas cards from a long-term health study I participate in. They send them as a way of reminding people to tell them if they move house, not because they've become deep personal friends.
[ 03. May 2013, 10:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I don't think that's an MBTI thing Orfeo; it's the reason mine is a mess. It's not something I care about enough to resolve, but it is the underlying reason.
It's also why I'm shite at tidying up generally. I pick something up and I'm utterly stalled if I don't know where it should live.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by KLB:
I live in constant bewilderment that there are people who take notes during sermons.
Wonders if there's a typical Mystery Worshipper type...
[ 03. May 2013, 10:34: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't think that's an MBTI thing Orfeo; it's the reason mine is a mess. It's not something I care about enough to resolve, but it is the underlying reason.
It's also why I'm shite at tidying up generally. I pick something up and I'm utterly stalled if I don't know where it should live.
If you don't know - bonfire or bin it!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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