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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Assassinations R Us - 3D printable plastic gun
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
A functioning, plastic gun has successfully been test fired.
This is insane, IMO. The attitude of the creator is both insane and frightening. And ridiculous.
quote:
"This is about enabling individuals to create their own sovereign space."
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
It seems to me that the motives of this particular creator are completely beside the point.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Some interestingly stupid bits in the Forbes piece:
quote:
On Sunday, New York Senator Charles Schumer echoed Israel’s call for that new legislation to ban 3D-printable guns. “A terrorist, someone who’s mentally ill, a spousal abuser, a felon can essentially open a gun factory in their garage,” Schumer said in a press conference.
Because if you ban them then the felons won't print them, right? That would mean they would be committing an... um... what's the word? Oh yes, felony. Idiot.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
What is a "sovereign Space", and why do I need to pump lead into people to secure it?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Here is a great short story from (I think) the 1950s that anticipated this issue, somewhat.
And... Sarky!!!! Nice to see you!!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It seems to me that the motives of this particular creator are completely beside the point.
I don't think they are. I think they demonstrate who this is likely to appeal to. He might be smart enough to create this, but people with similar sentiments who are less smart will want to get touch to buy/obtain from him.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
You are right orfeo.
The extent of the opening post is disdain for the motives of this man, the first to publicly demonstrate the technique.
I was premature in anticipating an argument from this event that gun control laws needed to be strengthened. My bad.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
All 3D printing is is the home equivalent of the robots which make cars in response to a blueprint. You actually have to have the 'factory' as well a 'design' so the downloadable firearm is't available to all PC users just yet.
However this being the States, its likely there are folks out there who would consider the assembler @ $8000 a throw a bargain for creating an armoury in your front room.
Anywhere else you couldn't sell this to just anyone - but the US?? Who knows. This is the country which markets .22 weapons to infants.....
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Just a suspicion, but if (or heaven forbid, when) someone gets murdered with one of things, I reckon there could be one hell of a lawsuit.
But when someone gets murdered with a conventional gun there's not a lawsuit against its designer, so why would there be one here?
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Just a suspicion, but if (or heaven forbid, when) someone gets murdered with one of things, I reckon there could be one hell of a lawsuit.
But when someone gets murdered with a conventional gun there's not a lawsuit against its designer, so why would there be one here?
If I'm not mistaken, our ever-cowardly Congress passed a law at the behest of the gun lobby exempting gun manufacturers from the normal product liability laws. I have no idea whether this law would cover a clown with an internet connection. But I would not assume that he would share the same exemptions that apply to Smith & Wesson.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
They're still subject to product liability laws - if a firearm malfunctions, for example, they can be sued like the manufacturer of any other product.
It's just that they can't be sued for negligence when their products are used in crimes (see 2005 Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act).
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I don't see how a product liability case would work with guns in any case. The product functions precisely as intended. It's MEANT to fire a projectile at speeds high enough to cause damage to whatever substance is in its path.
And frankly, the same problems arise in any kind of product liability case for a 3D printer manufacturer. It's doing what it says on the tin. I fail to see any practical way of preventing a printer making things that can become a bit sharp and pointy, never mind preventing it from making a number of bits and pieces that, when assembled afterwards, make a weapon.
About the only way of preventing this would be to ban 3D printers on the basis that they can be used in thoroughly stupid ways. We haven't really managed to ban too many things on that basis. And presumably 3D printers are terribly useful for something - although I'm not sure what, as most of what I've seen about them so far is of the 'wow, isn't that a clever novelty' variety.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
All 3D printing is is the home equivalent of the robots which make cars in response to a blueprint. You actually have to have the 'factory' as well a 'design' so the downloadable firearm is't available to all PC users just yet.
However this being the States, its likely there are folks out there who would consider the assembler @ $8000 a throw a bargain for creating an armoury in your front room.
Although, as you can make a 3D printer using Lego, an almost fully plastic factory making plastic firearms isn't that far away. Get your Lego printer making Lego as well, and Skynet is only a small step away.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
I don't think a Lego printer would actually be able to make decent Lego blocks; the tolerances on those are pretty tight.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
This youtube video seems to be able to mill foam pretty well. To mill plastic, you might need to run the drill faster, but that's a matter of gearing. And, maybe the Lego motors might be a bit underpowered. Increasing tolerance is also just a question of gearing (reducing the amount the drill bit moves for each revolution of the control motor).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
ISTM that the difference is this: a normal firearms manufacturer can claim that controls were in place to stop their weapons getting into the wrong hands (the controls don't work, but still...) - if you stick this thing up on the internet for anyone to download in the comfort of their own home, I don't see how you could make a similar claim.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't see how a product liability case would work with guns in any case. The product functions precisely as intended. It's MEANT to fire a projectile at speeds high enough to cause damage to whatever substance is in its path.
Which is precisely the rationale behind the law tclune bemoans.
Suing Ruger when some jerk shoots someone else makes about as much sense as me suing Chevrolet after a distracted driver hit my father. In both cases, the object in question worked as designed. The human using it was the problem, and you certainly can't blame the manufacturer because people are idiots. (I suppose we could have a "blame God" (the manufacturer of said idiots) thread here, if we wanted, but why?)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Isn't the flap about printable 3D guns just doing what the inventors of the 3D printer wanted? They are hoping to attract investors, not for guns but lots of other specialized applications.
I think I remember that a single shot 22 caliber pistol was an easily made item popular in the 60's gang warfare.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Making single shot guns is straight forward. A narrow straight tube, a projectile that fits snuggly in the tube, some wadding, an explosive and a firing mechanism. If you have access to gunpowder everything else is available at your local hardware store. The tricky bits are a) getting your projectile to exit the barrel with sufficient force to do something and b) stopping it exploding in your face. Such home-made weapons are only of interest to people unable to get more sophisticated weapons, and in most countries (even the UK) it's easy enough for criminals to get a gun that you won't find a single shot weapon (plastic or otherwise) used in a bank robbery.
Though, I'm sure we can all think of at least one instance where a plastic weapon would be of interest to criminals. I forsee the rapid introduction of new security devices and longer queues to get through airport security.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Isn't the flap about printable 3D guns just doing what the inventors of the 3D printer wanted? They are hoping to attract investors, not for guns but lots of other specialized applications.
I think I remember that a single shot 22 caliber pistol was an easily made item popular in the 60's gang warfare.
The fool referenced in the OP is not a manufacturer of any production device. 3D printers enjoy a solid market without any specific end product.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
This youtube video seems to be able to mill foam pretty well. To mill plastic, you might need to run the drill faster, but that's a matter of gearing. And, maybe the Lego motors might be a bit underpowered. Increasing tolerance is also just a question of gearing (reducing the amount the drill bit moves for each revolution of the control motor).
There is also a rigidity issue with Lego constructions, though you could epoxy the pieces together to eliminate some of this.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't see how a product liability case would work with guns in any case. The product functions precisely as intended. It's MEANT to fire a projectile at speeds high enough to cause damage to whatever substance is in its path.
Which is precisely the rationale behind the law tclune bemoans.
Suing Ruger when some jerk shoots someone else makes about as much sense as me suing Chevrolet after a distracted driver hit my father. In both cases, the object in question worked as designed. The human using it was the problem, and you certainly can't blame the manufacturer because people are idiots. (I suppose we could have a "blame God" (the manufacturer of said idiots) thread here, if we wanted, but why?)
There are, however, other tactics that can be used in an attempt to guard against idiocy. And manufacturers are sometimes required to employ those measures.
A couple of years ago I drafted a law to do with... I think it's called a 'recovery strap'. You use it to tow one 4WD vehicle out of the mud by connecting it to another.
The strap can kill a person, and has. If you're standing somewhere in between the 2 vehicles and it snaps off, it's potentially lethal.
So, Australian law now mandates that there are warnings on the strap and the packaging that say 'don't stand between the 2 vehicles'. I think there is also some information required about the load that can be borne by the strap, and some other stuff.
It's not the fault of the manufacturers of these straps that people stand in dumb places. There's no failure of the strap involved - my understanding is that the fatal cases have involved the strap being poorly attached or the thing that the strap was attached to breaking, rather than the strap breaking. But the makers of the strap are still required to do something about it.
What was particularly interesting to me at the time is that there is a whole SERIES of options for dealing with potentially dangerous products. I can't remember what they all are, but there's a whole range from advisory to warnings to restricted sale to outright banning.
So yeah, while I think a lawsuit is dumb, that doesn't mean I think that gun manufacturers can just shrug their shoulders and say 'nothing to do with us' either.
For instance, what the hell is anyone doing manufacturing guns that are 'suitable' for kids who are far too young to understand the possible consequences of aiming the gun at a sibling? Children under 10 aren't going to grasp concepts like 'always check whether the gun is loaded'. It's demented that there's a market for such a thing, but it's also completely unethical to set out to fill that market. No gun manufacturer is going to redeem themselves in my eyes by saying 'the kid was an idiot, what can we do about it' because kids fundamentally ARE 'idiots' in the relevant context.
My nephew (11) and niece (6) are completely normal kids developmentally, and they have trouble noticing whether they're going to knock a glass of wine off the dining room table while reaching for the yummy cheese. Who the fuck in their right mind would think they can handle a firearm?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
ADDENDUM: I went and found 'my' law on recovery straps.
Perhaps guns need to come with a label engraved on the barrel that says 'WARNING: If you point this at someone and press the trigger, there's a good chance you'll kill them. Is that really something you want? Have you considered the consequences?"
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Children under 10 aren't going to grasp concepts like 'always check whether the gun is loaded'. It's demented that there's a market for such a thing, but it's also completely unethical to set out to fill that market.
My kids have done archery several times, as did I when I was their age, and whilst the points used to impale straw targets aren't as lethal as hunting broadheads, you can still kill someone with them. It's rather more obvious when a bow is loaded, but otherwise the rules are pretty similar. They pretty quickly got the idea that you only ever point the weapon downrange, and only ever when there aren't people retrieving arrows etc., but they're not yet at an age when I'd send them off into a field by themselves with a bow and arrows and a straw target. The weapons are going to be controlled by an appropriate adult until it's time to use them, and they are only going to be used under direct supervision.
If we lived in the country, I might well buy them their own rifles - a Crickett or something similar - and they would be used under the same conditions. They would be kept locked up, by me. They would be transported to the range or other shooting site by me, and used only under my direct supervision.
I agree that kids are 'idiots' in this context, which is why they don't have control of the weapon outside tightly-regulated conditions. They are not going to have a rifle, or a bow and arrow, or any other weapon, propped up in the corner of their bedroom. My job as a parent is to keep dangerous things out of their reach until they understand how to behave sensibly and safely around those things, and that applies equally whether those things are weapons, power tools, steak knives, or the nails embedded in blocks of wood that Cnihtlet #2 brings home from preschool.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There are, however, other tactics that can be used in an attempt to guard against idiocy. And manufacturers are sometimes required to employ those measures.
<snip>
So yeah, while I think a lawsuit is dumb, that doesn't mean I think that gun manufacturers can just shrug their shoulders and say 'nothing to do with us' either.
There's a middle ground there, of course. If a manufacturer specifically marketed a firearm as "the one you want if you're going to off your spouse", sure- there would be some liability there, I'd say. The lawsuits the U.S. law in question was supposed to prevent are the
quote:
"Bob bought a gun that Steve stole from Alice, who bought it legally, and then Bob gave it to Jim, who shot my brother with it - so I'm suing Smith and Wesson because they marketed that gun knowing it could be stolen"
type of suits which are all too common in the U.S. - the general tactic is to sue anyone who can even remotely be connected to the issue, particularly if you perceive they've got money.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Perhaps guns need to come with a label engraved on the barrel that says 'WARNING: If you point this at someone and press the trigger, there's a good chance you'll kill them. Is that really something you want? Have you considered the consequences?"
Ruger firearms come with something pretty similar stamped into the barrel - it's referred as "the billboard" by a fair number of gun folks, and usually derisively.
Ah, I found one version of it online (I'm not at home, so I can't check a physical copy right now):
quote:
BEFORE USING GUN-READ WARNINGS IN
INSTRUCTION MANUAL AVAILABLE FREE FROM
STURM, RUGER @ CO.,
SOUTHPORT, CONN. U.S.A
Not quite as explicit as yours, but we're all doing what we can. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If we lived in the country, I might well buy them their own rifles - a Crickett or something similar - and they would be used under the same conditions. They would be kept locked up, by me. They would be transported to the range or other shooting site by me, and used only under my direct supervision.
I agree that kids are 'idiots' in this context, which is why they don't have control of the weapon outside tightly-regulated conditions. They are not going to have a rifle, or a bow and arrow, or any other weapon, propped up in the corner of their bedroom. My job as a parent is to keep dangerous things out of their reach until they understand how to behave sensibly and safely around those things, and that applies equally whether those things are weapons, power tools, steak knives, or the nails embedded in blocks of wood that Cnihtlet #2 brings home from preschool.
This. All of it. It boils down to parenting, in the end - teach kids to be safe, and do your part to help them do that. Which means locking up firearms, and bows, etc., when not in use.
I grew up around guns, hunting, and target shooting, as did most of my friends. None of them ever shot their little sister, either - because the adults in our lives did the right thing. I've no problem with laws that require safe storage. I'd prefer it to be common sense - though I realize that ship has probably sailed, unfortunately.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
(Hi Euty ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
Heading somewhat back on-topic...
I guess the guy did it because he could. If he hadn't figured out how to create a 3D printable plastic gun then someone else would have.
Yes it's insane. But the creator isn't insane - he's quite tunnel-visioned (not acknowledging the wider issues/uses), but human. We do things because we can, without thinking through all the implications , consequences and possibilities.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
If I download the instructions and make this plastic kit, and if it blows up in my face, taking my hand with it, rather than kills someone else, will I be able to sue the person who produced the plans?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If I download the instructions and make this plastic kit, and if it blows up in my face, taking my hand with it, rather than kills someone else, will I be able to sue the person who produced the plans?
Well, you can always sue someone...
More seriously, if you did download such a design for a gun, and loaded it and fired it, then you would be both rather braver than me, and also rather relying on your QC for your plastic extruder. And if your gun failed because your printer didn't control the temperature of the extruded plastic properly, that's probably your fault.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
(Hi Euty )
Heading somewhat back on-topic...
I guess the guy did it because he could. If he hadn't figured out how to create a 3D printable plastic gun then someone else would have.
Yes it's insane. But the creator isn't insane - he's quite tunnel-visioned (not acknowledging the wider issues/uses), but human. We do things because we can, without thinking through all the implications , consequences and possibilities.
ISTM, as a self-described "cryto-anarchist." he has indeed thought through the wider issues.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
This youtube video seems to be able to mill foam pretty well. To mill plastic, you might need to run the drill faster, but that's a matter of gearing. And, maybe the Lego motors might be a bit underpowered. Increasing tolerance is also just a question of gearing (reducing the amount the drill bit moves for each revolution of the control motor).
That's a fun video, but note that it took nearly 1.5 hours to cut a very soft piece of foam - ABS plastic is a lot harder. Lego motors can deliver at most a few watts of mechanical power; you can trade torque for speed through gearing, but that won't buy you power (and losses in the gear train can only hurt.) The motor with the maximum torque (NXT) is easily stalled by hand; I'm pretty sure that with a cutting tool it would barely scratch a block of ABS no matter how you geared it. And as lilBuddha suggests, building a Lego frame stiff enough to apply the necessary force would be a challenge.
Still, IANA mechanical engineer (exactly), and if someone can figure out a way to do it, I'd love to see it!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Jbohn, regarding safe storage: yes the ship has probably sailed. Because its one of the things Australia did and you just know that anything Australia did is evil excessive gun control. I mean, over here we CONVICTED a grandfather when his grandson got hold of a gun that wasn't in the required safe storage. Imagine how the NRA would play with that one.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If I download the instructions and make this plastic kit, and if it blows up in my face, taking my hand with it, rather than kills someone else, will I be able to sue the person who produced the plans?
You may have a case, yes, but in the USA having a case is not a prerequisite for suing a person anyway.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
This youtube video seems to be able to mill foam pretty well. To mill plastic, you might need to run the drill faster, but that's a matter of gearing. And, maybe the Lego motors might be a bit underpowered. Increasing tolerance is also just a question of gearing (reducing the amount the drill bit moves for each revolution of the control motor).
That's a fun video, but note that it took nearly 1.5 hours to cut a very soft piece of foam - ABS plastic is a lot harder. Lego motors can deliver at most a few watts of mechanical power; you can trade torque for speed through gearing, but that won't buy you power (and losses in the gear train can only hurt.) The motor with the maximum torque (NXT) is easily stalled by hand; I'm pretty sure that with a cutting tool it would barely scratch a block of ABS no matter how you geared it. And as lilBuddha suggests, building a Lego frame stiff enough to apply the necessary force would be a challenge.
Still, IANA mechanical engineer (exactly), and if someone can figure out a way to do it, I'd love to see it!
Yeah, I agree. You'll need more than just the drill bit to be non-Lego. But, it shouldn't be beyond the ability of many people to fix a small hand-held power tool into a Lego structure for the necessary cutting power.
But, if you want to have a means of making a single-shot gun for some purpose and then need to go to the hardware store for a drill to build into Lego you might as well just get the rest of the stuff you can get there to build a gun without bothering with a Lego 3D printer.
Which I think is the main point. The availability of some design to make a plastic gun using a 3D printer changes nothing with regard to the availability of firearms. There are existing plans for the construction of single shot guns, assorted bombs and who knows what using readily available materials and minimal machining already available for anyone to download.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
The real problem with current 3D printing technology is that nearly everything that I want that can be made out of the kind of soft plastic resin they use can be bought much more cheaply in shops I pass every day.
And the material things that I woull like to buy that I can't afford to buy already are mostly either not very suitable for soft plastic, or else too big to make in domestic printer, or both. Like new floors, walls, and a roof. Or a washing machine or a cooker. Or maybe a car (not that I can drive) Or a power saw or a telescope or a big shiny computer.
Same goes for guns by the way. Yes, you can make plastic guns. You can make wooden ones as well. There are good reasons why gunsmiths use steel.
And the gun as described is not all plastic. And AFAICT it still needs metal bullets. If you want to avoid x-rays and explosives snifferts and so on you want an all-oplastic gun with no explosives. I suppose a sort of air gun shooting plastic darts (or wood, or anything else) Maybe you could make one that shoots little darts that looks like a ballpoint pen.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
What Alan Cresswell said about 3-D printing.
The truly pitiable thing about all this (to me) is the "maker" culture's belief that 3-D printers will let them live "off the grid" in happy, anarchist villages populated by "sovereign citizens" (who will need 3-D printed weapons to defend their sovereignty, of course). No more capitullizzm, no more gummint.
They seem to have given no thought at all to how they will get the raw materials needed for 3-D printing.
I had the temerity once to raise that question with a member of the "maker" community, and was assured that recycled plastics would provide them with all the materials they needed. Which is of course not true, since under real-world conditions recycled plastic degrades rapidly.
Their weapons would probably explode in their hands before they had a chance to use them. So do we file this one under "thinning the herd"? Give it a Darwin Award?
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The real problem with current 3D printing technology is that nearly everything that I want that can be made out of the kind of soft plastic resin they use can be bought much more cheaply in shops I pass every day.
I have a friend with one. He has made little bits of plastic for a pew people to replace odd-shaped parts of household goods that have broken, and he's made a few amusing toys. Not, I think, worth the several hundred dollars it cost him to build the thing, but he mostly likes the printer for sheer geekiness.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Otter
Shipmate
# 12020
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
The truly pitiable thing about all this (to me) is the "maker" culture's belief that 3-D printers will let them live "off the grid" in happy, anarchist villages populated by "sovereign citizens" (who will need 3-D printed weapons to defend their sovereignty, of course). No more capitullizzm, no more gummint.
Hmm. I wonder if that attitude is a regional or group thing? The maker-types that I know aren't that silly. They can be pretty serious about their hobbies (can't we all?), but they'll happily admit that a lot of them are grownup toys.
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", YMMV, limited-time offer, IANAL, no purchase required, and the state of CA has found this substance to cause cancer in laboratory aminals
Posts: 1429 | From: Chicago, IL 'burbs | Registered: Nov 2006
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Otter:
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
The truly pitiable thing about all this (to me) is the "maker" culture's belief that 3-D printers will let them live "off the grid" in happy, anarchist villages populated by "sovereign citizens" (who will need 3-D printed weapons to defend their sovereignty, of course). No more capitullizzm, no more gummint.
Hmm. I wonder if that attitude is a regional or group thing? The maker-types that I know aren't that silly. They can be pretty serious about their hobbies (can't we all?), but they'll happily admit that a lot of them are grownup toys.
I'm thinking mainly of Defcad and Cody Wilson, who came up with the 3-D printed gun idea, I suppose.
[ 08. May 2013, 16:28: Message edited by: Grammatica ]
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
"This is about enabling individuals to create their own sovereign space."
The concept that one's individual sovereignty trumps the welfare of the rest of society is pathological, period, full stop. How to counter-act this poison? I don't know. God have mercy on the society that accepts this as a legitimate point of view.
Lord, may your kingdom come.
[ 08. May 2013, 16:42: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
FYI - It's perfectly legal for a private citizen to manufacture a non-regulated firearm for personal use. 3D printers make this less expensive than say a CNC mill/lathe and much easier than blacksmithing, but the legal home-made process already exists, no license required.
If a person wants a firearm for nefarious purposes and they can't pass a background check at a gun store, why bother with 3D printing? Buy a stolen firearm for $50 behind the local Stop'N'Rob like a normal criminal. Or as I've said all along and was unfortunately proven correct with Boston, $50 and a trip to Home Depot can get someone a whole lot more destruction than a gun ever will.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Doesn't work. A reason acquiring stolen weapons is this easy is the NRA has directly made tracking purchases difficult. The NRA has created situations which make criminal use of firearms easier.
Explosive devices require more knowledge to operate and targeting has more random factors.
The majority of homicides by firearm are not directly replaceable by explosives. Mass killings are anomalies, statistically insignificant.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
OK, so nix the Home Depot trip. It's a derailing direction anyway. How does 3D printing really change anything else? Why not just buy one off the street or steal one?
I'm not saying that's not a problem. It's a huge problem. I'm just saying that I don't see 3D printing really changing the source of firearms for illicit purposes.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
...
If a person wants a firearm for nefarious purposes and they can't pass a background check at a gun store, why bother with 3D printing? Buy a stolen firearm for $50 behind the local Stop'N'Rob like a normal criminal. Or as I've said all along and was unfortunately proven correct with Boston, $50 and a trip to Home Depot can get someone a whole lot more destruction than a gun ever will.
Pedantic point
Aurora 12 killed, dozens injured
Sandy Hook 26 killed,
Norway 69 killed 110 injured (55 seriously)
Boston 3 killed, 170 injured (10 amputees, 'some seriously')*
So it's debatable (if that's your thing). You'd have to play some sick weighting game with injuries.
However the point remains that you can do some pretty vile stuff with stuff that you can buy (although I don't know enough of what was used to power it, to know if it ought to have been available for £50 from Home Depot)
*sources BBC/Wiki
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
In the interests of completeness,
I don't know what was used for 7/7 and where sourced either.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
FYI - It's perfectly legal for a private citizen to manufacture a non-regulated firearm for personal use. 3D printers make this less expensive than say a CNC mill/lathe and much easier than blacksmithing, but the legal home-made process already exists, no license required.
Define 'non-regulated'. As I understand it, these people deliberately modified their gun, by inserting some metal in it, in order to comply with some firearms legislation.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
If a person wants a firearm for nefarious purposes and they can't pass a background check at a gun store, why bother with 3D printing? Buy a stolen firearm for $50 behind the local Stop'N'Rob like a normal criminal.
Exactly. I don't see why people are so up in arms (ha!) over a 3D printed gun given that there are literally millions of conventionally manufactured guns already present in the US. 3D printers are prohibitively expensive, and even if they go the way of other new technology and become a lot cheaper, unless our current situation changes, it'll still be easier and cheaper to buy a regular gun.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
partly because this is only the first, so theres the risk of being like generals saying "what's the purpose of a plane".
Partly I guess because its international, and many of us live where it's hard for criminals to obtain guns (without leaving a trail). Where this intentionally changes that. As welll as being self interested. It's easy to forget what liberties the us has given up (and we.re at risk of, we have far more armed police recently) for security.
Partly I guess we've also subconciencely believed the guy when he's said its a game changer.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Partly I guess because its international, and many of us live where it's hard for criminals to obtain guns (without leaving a trail).
It's not terribly hard to build something like an AK47 - anyone with a reasonable metalwork shop could do so. It might not be very good, but it would work better than a plastic one. You still need to get ammunition, of course.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
[It's not terribly hard to build something like an AK47 - anyone with a reasonable metalwork shop could do so.
No, anyone with reasonable metalwork SKILLS and access to a metalwork shop could do so.
One of the key differences about something like a 3D printer is that this sort of technology is designed to de-skill a task. You just press a few buttons, because someone else has already done the hard work for you.
In fact 2 people, or groups of people, have done the hard work for you. One group have created a machine that can replicate whatever pattern you feed into it. And another group have created, and tested, the particular pattern to produce the replica.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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