|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Was late 20th Century liturgical reform a disaster?
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Emily and South Coast Kevin, I'm with you guys. And I'm an Anglican!!
But nobody I know in RL talks like this. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I'm not sure if it's a lie. Just a stressful mistake, the logical conclusion of Trent.
Ha. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) That's probably the first post from you that I agree with, and also find funny into the bargain. No, not a lie. Not deliberate deception. But nothing I could ever go along with. I have no reason to love the Council of Trent. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) And I certainly don't accept ultramontanism.
The great irony of the infallibility dogma is that it exists precisely because wily cardinals knew that future popes were *not* infallible and they wanted to protect the Church of Rome from heresy. It's a check on papal power, if anything.
The problem is that Rome proves time and again to be utterly unreformable. Scholasticism also seems to be making a comeback, and Vatican II made a modest attempt to subtly nudge Rome in the direction of proper scriptural, patristic Christianity - utterly sabotaged by the last two papacies, especially the highly superstitious John Paul II.
Meanwhile we Anglicans have to accept that the Church of England, though the Reformation purged her of heresy, has now her self largely erred.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
'course it's always possible that the Church is following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and it's you that's erring. How'd you know?
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
That said...maybe it's because I'm becoming an old, cranky church lady, but the older I get the more I appreciate having a mental storehouse of liturgy that I can call upon -- or that indeed at times calls upon me -- throughout the day. I think everyone who's grown up with a standard liturgy, who's had it burned into their brains from week to week, knows what I mean. It's the kind of thing that my pastor friends say they find inspiring in places like hospitals or nursing homes where otherwise incoherent or non-responsive people suddenly join in with the traditional prayers and responses. To me, they're "a help in time of trouble."
Isn't that the role of hymns? That's what I find myself doing, singing hymns to myself. Far, far more often than I recite the Lords Prayer in my head.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
'course it's always possible that the Church is following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and it's you that's erring. How'd you know?
It's obvious - while the Pope may not be infallible, Indifferently clearly is.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Let me know which church is following the Holy Spirit and I shall join it immediately.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
That said...maybe it's because I'm becoming an old, cranky church lady, but the older I get the more I appreciate having a mental storehouse of liturgy that I can call upon -- or that indeed at times calls upon me -- throughout the day. I think everyone who's grown up with a standard liturgy, who's had it burned into their brains from week to week, knows what I mean. It's the kind of thing that my pastor friends say they find inspiring in places like hospitals or nursing homes where otherwise incoherent or non-responsive people suddenly join in with the traditional prayers and responses. To me, they're "a help in time of trouble."
Isn't that the role of hymns? That's what I find myself doing, singing hymns to myself. Far, far more often than I recite the Lords Prayer in my head.
I am the same, I find, although I do sometimes find myself saying liturgy in my head too.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
We sing the Lord's Prayer at my parish. And the Creed. I think music is very important in worship and I wish we could do the whole thing sung.
Karl, the structure of the Church is very clear. People who think the Holy Spirit is "leading the Church" into heresy and schism are essentially saying that Jesus Christ built His house upon sand. We have a firm foundation, that being Holy Scripture contains all things necessary to salvation, and that its rightfsl interpretation comes through the great Councils and Fathers. That firmness and surety sounds more like the Spirit of Truth to me than what the liberal factions prefer to do, which is make themselves the masters and God their slave.
how many times have I heard people say, "The God I believe in wouldn't say/do xyz"? That is completely the wrong way to approach the Sovereign God of the universe. We have to discover His holy will through the means he has deigned to reveal it to us, and conform ourselves thereto.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
And if you discover God says "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer" then that's fine, that's what we'll do?
Of course not. You have a conscience; I have one. Sometimes it conflicts with what has traditionally been understood. If after some thirty years of faith I cannot move my conscience to those traditional understandings, any more than I could accept "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer", then so help me God, I have to side with my conscience.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And if you discover God says "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer" then that's fine, that's what we'll do?
Of course not. You have a conscience; I have one. Sometimes it conflicts with what has traditionally been understood. If after some thirty years of faith I cannot move my conscience to those traditional understandings, any more than I could accept "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer", then so help me God, I have to side with my conscience.
God dragged Abraham up a mountain and told him to sacrifice his own Son. If Abraham had ignores God and done his own thing, you and I would both be dead in our sin today. Who was right? Faith means believing that God is Love. Abraham went through with it because he had true faith, and God rewardcd him for the same.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Karl, the structure of the Church is very clear.
No it isn't. Among the various churches of the world there is a wide variety of structures. Each have their merits and risks, and maybe God's actually quite agnostic (as it were!) about the structure of our churches. As long as the structure enables us to do what we're supposed to do (which is another thing on which Christians have a range of views).
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
People who think the Holy Spirit is "leading the Church" into heresy and schism are essentially saying that Jesus Christ built His house upon sand.
Again no, IMO. I'm not sure anyone thinks the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into heresy and schism. What I think is that there is sincere disagreement among people who are seeking to follow Jesus and his ways. Who's to say which of us is correct on any given issue? I think it's far better if we tread lightly with our beliefs, doctrines and preferences; acknowledging that we could be very wide of the mark on any issue, while retaining the courage to stand up for what we believe.
You're saying things I'd expect to hear from a Jehovah's Witness; the idea that God perfectly guides his chosen organisation so we don't need to exercise our own critical faculties or listen to our conscience on matters of faith. God has spoken and is speaking through his Church, so our part is simply to listen and obey...
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And if you discover God says "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer" then that's fine, that's what we'll do?
Of course not. You have a conscience; I have one. Sometimes it conflicts with what has traditionally been understood. If after some thirty years of faith I cannot move my conscience to those traditional understandings, any more than I could accept "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer", then so help me God, I have to side with my conscience.
God dragged Abraham up a mountain and told him to sacrifice his own Son. If Abraham had ignores God and done his own thing, you and I would both be dead in our sin today. Who was right? Faith means believing that God is Love. Abraham went through with it because he had true faith, and God rewardcd him for the same.
So you would feed the kids through the bacon slicer. Thank you and good night.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And if you discover God says "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer" then that's fine, that's what we'll do?
Of course not. You have a conscience; I have one. Sometimes it conflicts with what has traditionally been understood. If after some thirty years of faith I cannot move my conscience to those traditional understandings, any more than I could accept "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer", then so help me God, I have to side with my conscience.
God dragged Abraham up a mountain and told him to sacrifice his own Son. If Abraham had ignores God and done his own thing, you and I would both be dead in our sin today. Who was right? Faith means believing that God is Love. Abraham went through with it because he had true faith, and God rewardcd him for the same.
Occasionally, exceptionally, God may test our faithfulness in extreme ways. That doesn't mean that if we find someone telling us God is calling them to do something we couldn't countenance that therefore God is actually calling them to do that. The Spirit leads us into the truth. That doesn't mean we hear him calling us correctly, and even if we hear him clearly we're still capable of going our own way.
And, remember, if Abraham had done what God told him and sacrificed Isaac (rather than listening to a mere angel) then we'd also be dead in our sins as there'd be no people of Israel for Christ to be born in.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And if you discover God says "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer" then that's fine, that's what we'll do?
Of course not. You have a conscience; I have one. Sometimes it conflicts with what has traditionally been understood. If after some thirty years of faith I cannot move my conscience to those traditional understandings, any more than I could accept "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer", then so help me God, I have to side with my conscience.
God dragged Abraham up a mountain and told him to sacrifice his own Son. If Abraham had ignores God and done his own thing, you and I would both be dead in our sin today. Who was right? Faith means believing that God is Love. Abraham went through with it because he had true faith, and God rewardcd him for the same.
So you would feed the kids through the bacon slicer. Thank you and good night.
Karl, a carefully reading of the text of the account of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice Isaac will provide evidence that Abraham's faith was such that he believed that God could resurrect the sacrificed Isaac back to life again. Admittedly this hypothetical miracle would have been more impressive if Isaac had been put through a bacon slicer, so it's a good job that God didn't tell Abraham to do that (or the equivalent).
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Remind me again what bronze-age hypothetical bacon slicers have to do with 20th century liturgical reform, somebody - ?
[ 12. June 2013, 21:42: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And if you discover God says "thou shalt feed thy children through a bacon slicer" then that's fine, that's what we'll do?
No, surely we'll wonder why God is commanding us to use a bacon slicer when the God of the Bible (TM) started everything off in a place where having access to a bacon slicer was most unlikely. Then we'll argue about the relevant hermeneutic problems with bacon slicers as opposed to other processed meat slicers. Does this mean that God has a prejudice against slicers which are unable to process bacon, that are specifically only for Salami? And how about our vegetarians who only have access to cheese slicers? Are they to be cast into the Fiery Pits of Hell for not owning a bacon slicer? This argument will take such a sufficiently long time that the children will be so grown up as to have left home and be unwilling to be bacon slicer fodder.
[ 13. June 2013, 06:30: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Remind me again what bronze-age hypothetical bacon slicers have to do with 20th century liturgical reform, somebody - ?
Everybody knows someone who has one idea, and takes the opportunity of inserting it in every conversation they have at the slightest glimmer of any relevance.
The hypothetical bacon slicer is a rhetorical device by which a person can trumpet the superiority of his personal morality to God's.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The hypothetical bacon slicer is a rhetorical device by which a person can trumpet the superiority of his personal morality to God's.
How can any of us be sure that God's morality is identical to what is presented in the Old Testament or by any other 'authority'? In the last resort it is always down to conscience.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
If Scripture isn't a reliable indicator of who God is, then it's all down to our Special Feelings.
The fact that different people's consciences tell them different things is proof enough that conscience can't be trusted on its own. It has to be calibrated against something. In my case, Scripture is that something.
I'm not unsympathetic to Karl's angst over the harshness of what's shown in the OT (though it does seem he harps on it a bit). In the end, though, for me it comes down to this : God's will is the source of morality. Compliance with the will of God is therefore moral by definition. When you receive a direct commandment from God, all other bets are off.
Would I have done as Abraham did? I don't know. I don't think my faith is as great as his was. That's my failing, though, not God's.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
The trick though is identifying a direct command from God. I'd agree that Scripture is a reliable guide to the general will of God; I'm an awful lot less certain of the reliability of my interpretation of Scripture! And, when it comes to something more specific (eg: is God calling me to ministry?) then Scripture is practically useless, providing what I'm thinking God is calling me to isn't clearly in violation of something clearly taught in Scripture (if there's anything clearly taught in Scripture relevant to the question).
We live in a constantly variable world. Even what we think Scripture teaches changes, sometimes quite radically. A few centuries ago it would have been considered obvious that Africans are inferior, almost subhuman, and slavery was a Scripturally endorsed state for them. Such views are now held by only a small minority of nutters. Other things that were once considered obviously Scriptural, such as the role of women in church and home or sexuality, are in the same state.
With everything in flux, with what we believe in regard to morality constantly being reformed as the church recognises previous error (or, at least that previous thinking no longer works as well as once it did), it only seems reasonable that our liturgy that reflects those changing beliefs is also regularly reformed.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
If Scripture isn't a reliable indicator of who God is, then it's all down to our Special Feelings.
But the point is that the Bible doesn't give a consistent indicator of who God is, ISTM, certainly if one insists on the literal meaning and interpretation of the Bible. I'll find some examples if anyone wants to contest this...
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Bacon slicers aren't kosher. Stoning is the kosher remedy for recalcitrant children, Deut 22:21.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
I think hymns are what keep us straight and on-path ... never mind, mere sermons.
Sunday's sermon, although quite lively and interesting, didn't touch any vital issue of the day. It was all over our heads.
It was a nice service, intelligent rector, etc., but never got to the meat of the matter.
:shrug:
Em
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
That said...maybe it's because I'm becoming an old, cranky church lady, but the older I get the more I appreciate having a mental storehouse of liturgy that I can call upon -- or that indeed at times calls upon me -- throughout the day. I think everyone who's grown up with a standard liturgy, who's had it burned into their brains from week to week, knows what I mean. It's the kind of thing that my pastor friends say they find inspiring in places like hospitals or nursing homes where otherwise incoherent or non-responsive people suddenly join in with the traditional prayers and responses. To me, they're "a help in time of trouble."
Isn't that the role of hymns? That's what I find myself doing, singing hymns to myself. Far, far more often than I recite the Lords Prayer in my head.
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
A worship service should be a unified act. The sermon should guide contemplation of the Scriptures read (I'm a believer in the role of preacher being to help the members of the congregation think, so it's not a passive act by the congregation simply receiving - or, not, as may happen if the sermon goes over their heads). The hymns need to reflect the theme of the service, preferably expanding around the narrow theme expressed in the sermon rather than just restating it. The prayers, and the rest of the liturgy, should also fit into the theme.
I don't worship in a tradition with a set liturgy. So, when I lead worship I write not just the sermon but all the prayers etc. (OK, so often it's a case of taking some prayers from another resource and adapting them for the service I'm preparing) and choose the hymns. On Sunday my invitation for Communion and prayer of Thanksgiving both brought in the OT lectionary reading, with reference to unending provision, as an example.
It's not always easy to get everything working together well. But, I can't see how it can be done in a tradition with a set liturgy. Either you reject the ideal of keeping the service thematically unified, or the preacher is constrained to the theme given by the compilers of the liturgy. It could work for a liturgy written with the lectionary readings in mind (as, for example would be the case of collects in many liturgies). That would probably be even harder for a liturgy developed several centuries ago, with a different lectionary from the RCL many of us use.
Though I admit to a strong preference to relegate a set liturgy used by all congregations at all times, regardless of local needs, I can see an attraction in the whole church sharing in something in common. At a minimum I can't see how liturgies can be anything other than having flexibility to meet the local requirements of each congregation and the themes developed by each preacher, and for liturgies to be something under constant reform.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
I first attended church after the introduction of Common Worship, and in the days when I attended every week I had my church's preferred order memorized. I loved it. If BCP had been the norm when I began going to church, I would probably have loved it no less.
Because I wanted to go to church. I don't think the 1662 would keep people away any more than Common Worship currently attracts them, but making its use compulsory would certainly drive some people elsewhere, if only on principle. Fortunately, there isn't the slightest chance of this being attempted.
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Remind me again what bronze-age hypothetical bacon slicers have to do with 20th century liturgical reform, somebody - ?
Everybody knows someone who has one idea, and takes the opportunity of inserting it in every conversation they have at the slightest glimmer of any relevance.
The hypothetical bacon slicer is a rhetorical device by which a person can trumpet the superiority of his personal morality to God's.
Correct. The Gosepl according to Karl "I know better than God" doesn't appeal to me. Fortunately, I have read Job 38:
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
That's a misrepresentation of my position and you know it Indifferently.
Stop it. You're really pissing me off.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Correct. The Gosepl according to Karl "I know better than God" doesn't appeal to me. Fortunately, I have read Job 38:
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Hosting This is a violation of Commandment 3 quote:
Attack the issue, not the person
Name-calling and personal insults are only allowed in Hell. Attacks outside of Hell are grounds for suspension or banning.
Take it to hell.
/Hosting
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
If Scripture isn't a reliable indicator of who God is, then it's all down to our Special Feelings.
But the point is that the Bible doesn't give a consistent indicator of who God is, ISTM, certainly if one insists on the literal meaning and interpretation of the Bible. I'll find some examples if anyone wants to contest this...
Are you trying to set the Bible against itself?
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A worship service should be a unified act. The sermon should guide contemplation of the Scriptures read ... The hymns need to reflect the theme of the service, preferably expanding around the narrow theme expressed in the sermon rather than just restating it. The prayers, and the rest of the liturgy, should also fit into the theme.
Okay, when do topics like Astro-physics, chemtrails, Satanic inroads, Genocide-by-design, destruction of the family, dumbing-down of the people ... etc etc ad nauseum ...
get to come up? Shall we be blind Not-Sees forever?
Emily
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
If Scripture isn't a reliable indicator of who God is, then it's all down to our Special Feelings.
But the point is that the Bible doesn't give a consistent indicator of who God is, ISTM, certainly if one insists on the literal meaning and interpretation of the Bible. I'll find some examples if anyone wants to contest this...
Are you trying to set the Bible against itself?
It doesn’t need any human to do that. It is already logically inconsistent. For example, going to Hell for eternity when we are humans with a human lifespan of about 80 years and only really understand human lifespans not eternal “lifespans” is pretty much diametrically opposed to the “justice” espoused in “an eye for an eye” etc.
If justice in Heaven were the same as justice in courts on Earth, we would be judged as mentally unfit to plead, let alone punished.
The Bible is a lovely collection of myths, fables, morals and best attempts at observation and analysis of the natural world of people who lived 2000 to 4,000 years ago, all written under the guidance of God. Let’s not ruin it or insult it by pretending it’s applicable to our lives today without interpretation eh?
quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A worship service should be a unified act. The sermon should guide contemplation of the Scriptures read ... The hymns need to reflect the theme of the service, preferably expanding around the narrow theme expressed in the sermon rather than just restating it. The prayers, and the rest of the liturgy, should also fit into the theme.
Okay, when do topics like Astro-physics, chemtrails, Satanic inroads, Genocide-by-design, destruction of the family, dumbing-down of the people ... etc etc ad nauseum ...
get to come up? Shall we be blind Not-Sees forever?
Emily
I agree! I want to know why the rector at my church refuses to even mention Bilderberg in his sermons. He never mentions them and I want to know why it’s being suppressed. He mentioned satanic inroads a few weeks ago when the one near us was being resurfaced and the temporary traffic lights had failed but that’s about it.
You crack on Emily; the truth needs to be put out there!
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A worship service should be a unified act. The sermon should guide contemplation of the Scriptures read ... The hymns need to reflect the theme of the service, preferably expanding around the narrow theme expressed in the sermon rather than just restating it. The prayers, and the rest of the liturgy, should also fit into the theme.
Okay, when do topics like Astro-physics, chemtrails, Satanic inroads, Genocide-by-design, destruction of the family, dumbing-down of the people ... etc etc ad nauseum ...
get to come up? Shall we be blind Not-Sees forever?
Emily
The sermon is, or should be IMO, a reflection on the Scriptures read. That does limit the possible scope for what can be said by the preacher. Plus, there would need to be some pastoral sensitivity in what is said on subjects like family break-up, and 15 minutes is inadequate to deal with pastorally sensitive issues.
But, the conversation of the church is not limited to a 15 minute sermon once a week. There should be other opportunities for subjects to be discussed. I've personally never mentioned astrophysics in a sermon, but the minister at a former church had a PhD in astrophysics and regularly contributed to events discussing many aspects of science in relation to the Christian faith (even, once or twice, within the context of a specific act of Christian worship). There should be people in the church informed on issues like genocide, and opportunities for them to share what they know. It's just that the main Sunday service is not usually the most appropriate time.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Correct. The Gosepl according to Karl "I know better than God" doesn't appeal to me. Fortunately, I have read Job 38:
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Hosting This is a violation of Commandment 3 quote:
Attack the issue, not the person
Name-calling and personal insults are only allowed in Hell. Attacks outside of Hell are grounds for suspension or banning.
Take it to hell.
/Hosting
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
Indifferently:
I suggest to take heed of that hostly warning. You've been suspended once already. This is your last official warning. One more breach of any of the commandments will result in your permanent banning
Spike
SoF Admin
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A worship service should be a unified act ...
I don't worship in a tradition with a set liturgy. So, when I lead worship I write not just the sermon but all the prayers etc. (OK, so often it's a case of taking some prayers from another resource and adapting them for the service I'm preparing) and choose the hymns.
Coming from a similar ecclesial background to Alan (I think!), I absolutely concur with his entire post. But I must say that preparing this kind of service well takes a great deal of time as one is not just preparing a sermon, choosing hymns (a delicate task in itself) and then slotting them into a largely pre-determined liturgy, but virtually starting with a blank sheet of paper every time.
It is true that few of my Baptist colleagues prepare their service prayers as Alan clearly does: this is not really a case of laziness but down to a belief that extempore prayer done "on the hoof" is likely to be more "inspired" or "spiritual". However the likely result is banality and tedious repetition, when the prayers could have been so much more thoughtful and incisive.
Having said all this, I think every church develops at least an outline liturgy which helps people to feel settled within the service: constant alterations induce a great deal of insecurity and prevent them playing their full part in worship. So, for instance, our services will usually follow a pattern of Call to Worship - Hymn - Responsive Psalm - Prayer + Lord's Prayer - Anthem - Children's Address - Song (etc.); however there might be some shuffling around of the elements within the general framework. We do have occasional "slightly alternative" services but even they have a tendency to revert to a standardised form - I think that's human nature!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Correct. The Gosepl according to Karl "I know better than God" doesn't appeal to me. Fortunately, I have read Job 38:
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Hosting This is a violation of Commandment 3 quote:
Attack the issue, not the person
Name-calling and personal insults are only allowed in Hell. Attacks outside of Hell are grounds for suspension or banning.
Take it to hell.
/Hosting
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
Indifferently:
I suggest to take heed of that hostly warning. You've been suspended once already. This is your last official warning. One more breach of any of the commandments will result in your permanent banning
Spike
SoF Admin
I don't think this admonition is appropriate.
The comment in question was completely civil AND
quote:
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
is a quote from Scripture that simply reminds us all, we don't know everything.
That is not an uncivil reminder. :|
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
45 87 99 ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 15. June 2013, 23:44: Message edited by: Emily Windsor-Cragg ]
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
