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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The best handgun for concealed carry
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Yeah. It's possibly slightly better than "He got a whole bunch of people killed by drawing a gun in a tense situation and survived."
I prefer:
"Man, flouting statist laws prohibiting his human and constitutional rights to arm himself as he damn well pleases, wounds assailant ending risk to innocents. He shrugged off hero accolades by saying 'aw shucks - anyone could have done the same, unless they're lemming types'."
It's a bit long I admit but you just need to reduce font size on the grave stone.
I'd prefer "Nobel Prize Winner" on mine. Frankly I think mine's more likely to be true.
[ 25. May 2013, 22:43: Message edited by: Justinian ]
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Whilst being hit by a '22 isn't pretty they can be rather easily deterred by, for example, strategically placed cigarette cases which, if a homicidal loon is trying to put a cap in your ass, to use the vernacular, is somewhat less than optimal.
I continue to hope a round of birdshot from an unexpected quarter (the overwheming benefit of a teensy gun) in the neck or eyeball may well give someone pause.
quote:
Basically, in the event of your squaring off with someone who knows what they are doing with a gun my money is on an extremely tragic 'Alas, poor Moron' thread in All Saints accompanied by a 'Why God, why?' thread in Hell.
You think the typical USA mass murderer 'knows what they are doing'?
I figure anyone who calls himself moron has the moral advantage, at least.
And PLEASE note the lower case m. TIA.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
You think the typical USA mass murderer 'knows what they are doing'?
Presumably they do know what they are doing in respect of their weaponry, or they would not be, or be in the process of becoming, mass murderers. That, and not their philosophical coherence, is going to be the relevant consideration.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Presumably they do know what they are doing in respect of their weaponry, or they would not be, or be in the process of becoming, mass murderers.
They only know more than people who haven't familiarized themselves with this stuff for decades and who must risk public ridicule and state sanction in order to combat them.
God bless the NRA for their public education efforts. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
God bless the NRA for their public education efforts.
If only there was some way to tell which career direction the students were going to follow subsequently...
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
You think the typical USA mass murderer 'knows what they are doing'?
I think they know what they are doing better than the average NRA trained person with a gun, let alone an untrained person with a gun. After all they are actually using their gun to shoot other people rather than being most likely to create a self-inflicted wound and to make a bad situation a hell of a lot worse because they have something that encourages them to not back down.
Where they are mistaken is in thinking either carrying or shooting other people with a gun is a good idea. And their motivation.
quote:
I figure anyone who calls himself moron has the moral advantage, at least.
On what grounds?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
For black bears I just sing loudly, and that usually scares them off.
Brown bears might require a 6 gauge shotgun, though it is rather difficult to conceal. Put 8 or 10 slugs in each shell and aim for the shoulders: that slows it down and makes it harder to maul you. A popgun isn't very useful in that case: even with a heart full of .44 slugs they can take unfortunately long to realize that they are supposed to be dead. Government crews in Alaska are required to carry a pair of .375 magnum rifles on each field crew, but the shotgun gives more force at short distances, and if the bear is out of range you aren't in danger yet.
For snakes a walking stick with a forked end is convenient for encouraging them to get out of the way if they aren't already doing so, and can also be used to pin the head down while you cut it off with a shovel or pocket knife. Some folks prefer a .38 loaded with birdshot, but it has a bad habit of making holes in your shoes in tight spots.
The walking stick is good for cougars as well - you want to make yourself look big so it decides not to attack. If it does jump you won't have time to pull a gun, but a judo flip on an outstretched paw might work if you have quick reactions. (Try to twist the cat in the process, as most damage is done with the rear claws.)
I haven't encountered anything else that I've needed to defend myself against.
The goal should be not to use the gun. No-one generally carries any weapons, but I do have sympathy for carrying a rifle in grizzly or polar bear country. Best to avoid the areas where they are in general. Most people never use the gun they carry. Bear bangers are the first thing to use.
There's a psychology of carrying a gun that can make some people bolder than they would elsewise be. I have only seen this with wildlife, but suspect that it emboldens the carrier of a handgun in the same way re other human beings. No amount of training can change the immediate experience of emotions and their connection to the trigger finger.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
Tom said it as well as anyone, I guess. There is no easy way out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKqO0FeaCFQ
Indeed. "Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon" is a seductive approach.
But for those of us that prefer to live, Stand Your Ground Laws lead to increased homicides. There are times to draw the line. But glorifying them rather than coming to that conclusion regretfully and realising that cock-up is the most likely consequence shows a callous disregard for human life.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
You think the typical USA mass murderer 'knows what they are doing'?
It is the difference between your target being everybody or being one, particular person.
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
I expected we were going to have that stupid philosophical discussion about whether it is guns, bullets, or people that kill people.
Silly, it is the loss of blood and/or damage to internal organs which kills people.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Gee, I thought it was God. Or Satan.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
No-one generally carries any weapons, but I do have sympathy for carrying a rifle in grizzly or polar bear country. Best to avoid the areas where they are in general.
Just stay near someone you can outrun. If a bear comes charging run in the direction that keeps the other person between you and the bear.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
God bless the NRA for their public education efforts.
Joke post surely?
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Now I love Mr. Petty. You can just hear Jesus singing that song as we beat and spat on and flogged and nailed him up can't you? No really. He just wouldn't back down. Or maybe He went through that, through us not backing down, so that we can keep on not backing down; He backed down for us so we don't have to. And Don Rumsfeld is His apostle: "We have a choice, either to change the way we live, which is unacceptable, or to change the way that they live, and we chose the latter.".
I mean just look at the way Jesus will back everyone down, apart from us good guys of course, when we're really up against it!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
God bless the NRA for their public education efforts.
Joke post surely?
If I'm going to be around folks with guns I'd rather be around folks who have had NRA safety training than around folks that haven't.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
No-one generally carries any weapons, but I do have sympathy for carrying a rifle in grizzly or polar bear country. Best to avoid the areas where they are in general.
Just stay near someone you can outrun. If a bear comes charging run in the direction that keeps the other person between you and the bear.
If a bear asks to eat you, give him your friend as well. Or rather, first. And turn your cheeks to it and skedaddle.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And Don Rumsfeld is His apostle: "We have a choice, either to change the way we live, which is unacceptable, or to change the way that they live, and we chose the latter."
On Current TV there is currently a guy advertising his show who presumes to mock Rumsfeld: pretty nervy ISTM, coming from a 'reporter' who never played at Don's level.
But I admit I am probably the most arrogant SOB you'll ever run across negatively reveling in mocking others who have played at higher levels.
Durnit.
Still and all you do what you can with what you have. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah, if'n only Jee-zus udda hadduh Vulcan Minigun in Gethsemane uh ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
No-one generally carries any weapons, but I do have sympathy for carrying a rifle in grizzly or polar bear country. Best to avoid the areas where they are in general.
Just stay near someone you can outrun. If a bear comes charging run in the direction that keeps the other person between you and the bear.
If a bear asks to eat you, give him your friend as well. Or rather, first. And turn your cheeks to it and skedaddle.
Yep. A grizzly can cover 100 yards of uneven ground in six seconds.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
God bless the NRA for their public education efforts.
Joke post surely?
If I'm going to be around folks with guns I'd rather be around folks who have had NRA safety training than around folks that haven't.
Indeed. And to use an analogy if I'm going to be around rabid dogs I'd rather be around rabid poodles than rabid rottweilers. This doesn't mean I want to be around rabid dogs at all.
If folks are carrying guns other than (a) on a range or (b) hunting or some other specific gun requiring activity (or in bear country) or (c) in a military situation or (d) because they have a restraining order out against a small, finite list of specific people and have reasonable cause to expect those people to breach the restraining order then it is because they have fantasies of using them on people. If they have those fantasies then they are automatically very dangerous and being trained by the NRA only makes them very slightly less dangerous or worrying. On the other hand the NRA goes out of its way to infect people with those fantasies.
[ 28. May 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Justinian ]
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
If folks are carrying guns other than (a) on a range or (b) hunting or some other specific gun requiring activity (or in bear country) or (c) in a military situation or (d) because they have a restraining order out against a small, finite list of specific people and have reasonable cause to expect those people to breach the restraining order then it is because they have fantasies of using them on people. If they have those fantasies then they are automatically very dangerous and being trained by the NRA only makes them very slightly less dangerous or worrying. On the other hand the NRA goes out of its way to infect people with those fantasies.
I doubt my secretary has "fantasies" about shooting someone.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I think Justinian, you're leading in the direction of mood, personality, and what is acceptable to express. It is unfair to describe a national personality, except to say there is a tendency in one direction or another via shared cultural history.
Consider: you have been served a meal in a restaurant, and it's pretty good, but they brought you the rice rather than the potato. Do you complain and send it back, say nothing and eat it anyway, eat it anyway and inform the waiter that it was wrong? In some places, the confrontation would be generally avoided, and at most eating it anyway and telling the waiter. I have the impression that Americans would tend to confront more, being more concerned about rights than other nationalities.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
If folks are carrying guns other than [..4 random reasons..] then it is because they have fantasies of using them on people. If they have those fantasies then they are automatically very dangerous and being trained by the NRA only makes them very slightly less dangerous or worrying.
I'd say that this kind of brainless nonsense was more worrying, actually.
I don't carry a gun - I don't even own a gun, for all kinds of reasons, not least because about the only thing that passes for crime in these parts is 19-year-olds trying to sneak in to bars.
I do have smoke alarms and carbon monoxide detectors in my house. This doesn't mean that I "fantasize" about my house burning down, not do I "fantasize" about dragging my children out of the house before they asphyxiate. We have, however, practiced what to do if there was a fire, just like millions of other families, and I check that the alarms are functioning correctly on a regular basis.
I don't expect my house to burn down, but I would like to maximize my chances of not being found dead in its smoking embers if it does.
I'm sure you'd like to tell me that my smoke alarm doesn't kill anyone, whereas if I had a gun it would be 20 times more likely to kill me or a family member than a criminal.
Let's start with the smoke alarm. Yes, you're right - there is little downside to owning a smoke alarm - the greatest risk it poses is falling on someone's head because I haven't fixed it to the ceiling properly. But that's not what we're talking about - we're talking about your characterization of everyone who carries a gun outside your special categories as "fantasists." The most recent numbers I can find suggest that in the USA, there are about 800,000 aggravated assaults (basically, assaults involving a deadly weapon) every year, and about 360,000 house fires. Yet the people who are concerned about assault are the fantasists? What about people who carry mace or pepper spray - are they fantasists too, or is there just a gun-shaped hole in your logic?
Now let's consider the "20 times more likely to shoot me or a family member". Yes, as a statistical aggregation of data, you're right. A useful caution? Sure. Something to think about if you're considering purchasing a gun? Sure. Does it mean that the gun purchased by a particular individual is 20 times more likely to shoot him? No, because this statistical aggregation hides the details. Common-sense precautions can make it essentially impossible for a toddler to get hold of your gun, for example. Suicides? Yes, you're more at risk if you have a gun, because you have an easy, certain, quick way of killing yourself. About the only bit of firm data that came out of the Brady Bill is that when a cooling-off period for gun purchases was introduced, the suicide rate went down. I gather there was a similar effect in the UK when acetaminophen started to be sold in only limited quantities.
These are all reasonable things to think about. But dismissing gun owners as "fantasists" because they don't come to the same set of conclusions as Justinian is unreasonable.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Leorning Cniht, this is nonsense. There is no comparison with a passive safety device like a smoke detector and a gun. You might compare seat belts or a first aid kit the same meaningless way. Or broccoli, which you cannot eat if you don't have any.
A gun is a weapon, a smoke detector isn't. The only similarity is that you cannot have a smoke detector alarm if you don't possess one, just like you cannot shoot anything or anyone if you do not have a gun. Nor can you eat broccoli if you haven't grown or bought some.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
These are all reasonable things to think about. But dismissing gun owners as "fantasists" because they don't come to the same set of conclusions as Justinian is unreasonable.
I don't know. It's only an unreasonable point to make if you can show that a good percentage of those 800,000 assaults could have been prevented (or ameliorated in their severity) by the victim having a handgun.
As far as I can tell from the statistics, the reverse is actually true, in that having a weapon makes you more, not less, likely to become a victim of gun violence. So, that being the case, holding to the fantasy that having a gun protects you is exactly that: a fantasy.
I've one particularly lovable nutter on my FB page who's suggested that events in Woolwich would have turned out very different if we Brits had all been armed. My answer to that would be: yes, yes it would. But not in a good way.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
Outside a sporting and vermin control context, why would anyone want to own/carry a firearm if they can't imagine themselves using it on someone else if they are feeling threatened, or because they see someone else being threatened?
Of course they're fantasists! They're using their imaginations and either coming up feeling frightened and/or heroic. But it's still psychopathic bullshit, fed by a bunch of sociopathic idiots (the NRA) who only care about their `right' to blow away anyone they deem unworthy of existence---all in the best possible taste of course because we wouldn't want to be anything other than loyal upstanding citizens of the USA.
Anyone with half a brain can work out that only highly trained people can be entrusted with firearms in life threatening situations, and they still make mistakes.
Ordinary normal human beings in high stress abnormal situations either freeze or panic, very few, whatever their fantasies tell them, remain cool, calm, detached, and act with intelligence and competence. And that is without even presuming that access to a weapon, let alone use of it, is even an option when it comes to the few seconds that actually count.
This whole discussion is just so out beyond the edge of sanity it's truly hilarious. And yet so many are convinced it's sane. Just like nailing a human being to a piece of wood seemed to some like a good idea at the time.
[ 28. May 2013, 16:03: Message edited by: Alisdair ]
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think Justinian, you're leading in the direction of mood, personality, and what is acceptable to express. It is unfair to describe a national personality, except to say there is a tendency in one direction or another via shared cultural history.
Consider: you have been served a meal in a restaurant, and it's pretty good, but they brought you the rice rather than the potato. Do you complain and send it back, say nothing and eat it anyway, eat it anyway and inform the waiter that it was wrong? In some places, the confrontation would be generally avoided, and at most eating it anyway and telling the waiter. I have the impression that Americans would tend to confront more, being more concerned about rights than other nationalities.
So. Americans are more confrontational than othes according to you, and you think this is a good reason for them to carry guns. Rather than simply making it more likely that people who will "Stand my ground" no matter what the circumstance will keep escalating because they have a gun - and someone is going to get shot.
And my "List of random reasons" was the list of reasons I could think of to carry and fire guns that don't have anything to do with humans as targets (I forgot things like the biathlon). And two that do. As for the 800,000 aggravated assaults, how many of them do you think would have been helped by extra guns? And how many of them do you think a gun would have just made worse, with the risk of stray bullets? And how many of them do you think happened precisely because there were people carrying guns. Remember the Tueller Drill - at close range bringing a gun to a knife fight doesn't help much (although it does more than bringing a knife to a gun fight).
As for mace and pepper spray, those things hurt like hell but as a rule don't kill people. This isn't a hole in my logic. It's a difference in kind between the gun and pepper spray.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
So what do you use to defend yourself?
A well-run police force and judiciary.
That must be really heavy.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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