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Source: (consider it) Thread: Cowboys and ?????
Soror Magna
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"Indigenous" seems increasingly popular among my Indigenous Facebook friends. Older people mostly use Aboriginal and the other options listed above.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The fractions are a particularly American thing. I sometimes wonder if it isn't to do with needing to find/define identity because of coming from a relatively young country.

More likely a hangover from slavery. Noit being more than 1/32 black used to really matter a lot.
More like One-Drop. Fucking bastards.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Winnow:
She looked me full in the eyes and said "yes, you're Indian -- I can see it in your eyes. It's in the eyes." -- I'm not sure what she meant by that exactly, but the above comments give me more to think about.

That's at least more scientific than my brothers' fantasy that we're part Cherokee because we don't have any hair on our legs.

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
"Indian luggage" referred to green garbage bags.

That made me feel so old. In West Virginia it was "Hillbilly luggage" and it was brown paper bags. Two or three bags was "A matched set of luggage."
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Gramps49
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To defend the Native American position, they are concerned that their heritage will eventually be assimilated into the larger culture. There are also the issues of land rights, hunting rights, and fishing rights. And, more recently, there are profits from tribal ventures such as the casino industry.

You may think this is archaic but among "The People" these are real issues.

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Thank you all for your erudite replies. So the indigenous peoples are happy to call themselves "Indians" even though they've never been near India? That surprises me; I'd assumed that the term was offensive because it is so Euro-centric.

I akways thought "Indian" meant "indegenous".
No, it came from the original circumstances in which Christopher Columbus accidentally became the first European navigator to come across the Americas after it became accepted that the earth was not flat. He hypothesised that heading west from Europe would lead to a shorter trade route to India and the East Indies, and when it was finally worked out that he'd "found" a different place altogether it became conventional to have both the East Indies and the West Indies, and Indians and American Indians.

Any attempt to whitewash that and claim it's a diminutive of indigenous is just blatant revisionism.

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Leaf
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Gramps49, your last post had so much wrong, it was like a recipe full of wrong: chopped wrong with roasted wrong, served with wrong sauce.

Let's start with your mistaken attempt to argue with a position that nobody was taking . Official status for first peoples is important, as you may have noted in this post:
quote:
Official status is important north of the border too, just described differently. As no prophet and Lothiriel said, "treaty" and "status" are the usual nomenclature.
Just because this isn't described in blood fractions, as seems to be common in the US, it doesn't mean that determining official status for first peoples is unimportant in Canada. Indeed, it remains important for all the reasons that you noted in your post. No one thinks it's archaic or unnecessary. Put down the straw.

Now let's look at your terminology. Is it meaningful to speak of "THE Native American position"? Is there only one? I suspect that there are a multiplicity of positions, such that it would be as hard to name "THE position" among the various nations as "THE Christian position" on a given subject.

"Native American" is not a recognized term for Canada's First Nations people, of whom I was speaking. I guess you could try "Native North American" but that would be new terminology. "Native American" refers to a subset of citizens of the United States, which I suppose returns us to the OP's point: Not all terminology is acceptable everywhere.

So to attempt to defend the (?) Native American (?) position with which no one was arguing (?) is quite the container of ???'s.

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Gramps49
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I make no apologies for using the term Native American. While it is not usually used in Canada, it is commonly used in the United States. I am well aware Canadians prefer the term First Nations.

Nor will I apologize for the use of "the." Native American tribal laws are very keen on preserving the tribe for the reasons I outlined, and probably more. It is a common concern among all tribal governments, so I can safely say the position I outlined is more than "a" position.

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Augustine the Aleut
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I have had the occasion to take my afternoon espresso with some friends in town for the Marathon, of whom two were First Nations (one Kwakiutl and the other Oneida of the Six Nations)-- they tell me that Indian is a permissible usage, frequent among First Peoples, and can be used with propriety by others, depending on their intent-- Aboriginal is safer. They like band- or nation-specific usage (such as Deer Lake Cree or Algonquin of Barrier Lake) but felt that this is too difficult a concept for most outsiders. One liked Native, but found that this confused people, who assumed that it distinguished between immigrant and Canadian-born.

Both confirmed that any two other Aboriginal Canadians would likely provide me with a different opinion than theirs, but a respectful and courteous attitude would mean that offence would likely not be taken at almost any usage. They both advised against Eskimo as a word, although one of them has an Inuktitut-speaking Inuk friend who tells people that she speaks Eskimo, on the grounds that managers have difficulty with long words.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
They like band- or nation-specific usage (such as Deer Lake Cree or Algonquin of Barrier Lake) but felt that this is too difficult a concept for most outsiders.

There's really no reason for it to be difficult. If you go to Cherokee, that should be a strong hint that there are going to be Cherokee there.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Leaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I make no apologies for using the term Native American. While it is not usually used in Canada, it is commonly used in the United States. I am well aware Canadians prefer the term First Nations.

Hey, good for you! You learned something.

quote:
Nor will I apologize for the use of "the." Native American tribal laws are very keen on preserving the tribe for the reasons I outlined, and probably more. It is a common concern among all tribal governments, so I can safely say the position I outlined is more than "a" position.
The point about "the" was meant to alert you to the possibility of multiple positions within a very large heterogenous group in which you have claimed no membership. This is analogous to claiming, "The Jewish position is...", and about as accurate.

However, your insistence on refuting a point no one has made - tilting at windmills, so to speak - has reminded me of a happy memory of my young cousin's mispronunciation of "Donkey Oatie." So thank you for that.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
They like band- or nation-specific usage (such as Deer Lake Cree or Algonquin of Barrier Lake) but felt that this is too difficult a concept for most outsiders.

There's really no reason for it to be difficult. If you go to Cherokee, that should be a strong hint that there are going to be Cherokee there.
I quite agree, but was only reporting another perspective. If folks can figure out sports teams and their leagues in detail and precision, they should have no problem with precise identification of peoples. IMHO.
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Sober Preacher's Kid

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Oh really? My local band (Ma Preacher was the minister on the reserve for seven years, and I went to school with the band kids) is Ojibwa, specifically of the Mississauga tribe. However, if I say I am going to Mississauga, people will think I am going to the suburb west of Toronto containing a million people and Hazel McCallion (a mayor of some repute and who has been in office since before I was born).

Though the local reserves had the name first and are either owed royalties or intellectual property damages.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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Augustine tA:
quote:
They both advised against Eskimo as a word
What's wrong with Eskimo? Why is it offensive?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Lothiriel
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Augustine tA:
quote:
They both advised against Eskimo as a word
What's wrong with Eskimo? Why is it offensive?
From the Canadian government's guide to Aboriginal terminology:

quote:
"Eskimo" is the term once given to Inuit by European explorers and is now rarely used in Canada. It is derived from an Algonquin term meaning "raw meat eaters," and many people find the term offensive.


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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery

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Augustine the Aleut
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When I was very important, I was at a private dinner when the topic of the word Eskimo arose. By good fortune, I was sitting beside Susan Aglukark (one of Canada's two decent evan singers), who shut us up by noting that, since we knew that the word Eskimo was unkind in its intent, we would have to ask ourselves why we would wish to use it.
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art dunce
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The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian by Sherman Alexie is a great book and Alexie has written at great length about the use of Indian vs Native American if you wish to read one Indian's opinion.

As for Eskimo, when my son, who is part native on his fathers's side, first heard the song "A White Christmas" at age five or so commented when they got to the line "dressed up as Eskimos" that the line was racist and he thought we shouldn't listen to it.

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Ego is not your amigo.

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rugasaw
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
They like band- or nation-specific usage (such as Deer Lake Cree or Algonquin of Barrier Lake) but felt that this is too difficult a concept for most outsiders.

There's really no reason for it to be difficult. If you go to Cherokee, that should be a strong hint that there are going to be Cherokee there.
I quite agree, but was only reporting another perspective. If folks can figure out sports teams and their leagues in detail and precision, they should have no problem with precise identification of peoples. IMHO.
Well, if you live in Oklahoma you are around so many different tribes that it is difficult to know who is from which tribe unless they announce it.

From my perspective if you refer by tribal/clan name you are most correct. If you need to refer to tribal peoples in general and not any specific tribe just try to be polite and you will be. I find the term Red Indian to be to close to Redskin to be comfortable with it.

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
"Eskimo" is the term once given to Inuit by European explorers and is now rarely used in Canada. It is derived from an Algonquin term meaning "raw meat eaters," and many people find the term offensive.

I don't know if it is true, but I've read elsewhere that eating the meat raw is what helped them from getting scurvy. Besides, there probably isn't a whole lot of cooking fuel way up north, anyway, is there?

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Lothiriel
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
"Eskimo" is the term once given to Inuit by European explorers and is now rarely used in Canada. It is derived from an Algonquin term meaning "raw meat eaters," and many people find the term offensive.

I don't know if it is true, but I've read elsewhere that eating the meat raw is what helped them from getting scurvy. Besides, there probably isn't a whole lot of cooking fuel way up north, anyway, is there?
I don't know about raw meat preventing scurvy, but AFAIK the peoples of the far north would traditionally use animal fats for fuel.

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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I don't know if it is true, but I've read elsewhere that eating the meat raw is what helped them from getting scurvy. Besides, there probably isn't a whole lot of cooking fuel way up north, anyway, is there?

Its true. They could make fire OK, but yes, some kinds of meat, some times, are eaten raw, and it is good for your health of you eat no, or almost no, vegetables. Part of the Arctic survival kit they invented.

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
No, it came from the original circumstances in which Christopher Columbus accidentally became the first European navigator to come across the Americas after it became accepted that the earth was not flat. He hypothesised that heading west from Europe would lead to a shorter trade route to India and the East Indies, and when it was finally worked out that he'd "found" a different place altogether it became conventional to have both the East Indies and the West Indies, and Indians and American Indians.

Oh its much sillier than that! No-one seriously beleived the world was flat in the 15th century. They knew it was round and they had a pretty good idea how big it was and where the various countries were on the globe. And they had for over a thousand years. The standard late ancient and early medieaveal work on astronomy and geography, Ptolemy's Almagest has sort-of believeable locations for some places in Asia. And Europeans had traveeled there by land as well. So the official line was that you couldn't sail to China the "wrong way round" in the ships that they had at the time. Because it was too far away - they knew where China was, they knew where Spain was, and they knew how much food and water they could take on board. (Long distance ocean voyages without landfall didn't become common for maybe another century, and they remained horrifically dangerous till about the 1740s)

But Columbus thought the standard ideas were all wrong. He had this looney theory that the world was much smaller than it in fact is. So he thought China was somewhere just the other side of the Azores. So he went off looking for Asia, and hit somewhere else entirely because his maps were wrong, not because they were right.

Columbus was just aboiut the word navigator in history. He went to Cuba and thought he'd found Japan. Seriously.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Robert Armin

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Lothiriel, many thanks for the explanation of "Eskimo". I suppose that "raw meat eater" carried the connotation of being ignorant and savage, and was therefore intended as an insult.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Lothiriel, many thanks for the explanation of "Eskimo". I suppose that "raw meat eater" carried the connotation of being ignorant and savage, and was therefore intended as an insult.

Does eating sushi makes one an ignorant savage, too? If someone eats some of their meat raw, they probably have their reasons and saying it as an insult shows the ignorance of the one trying to be insulting, not the "Eskimo". If it is just a statement of fact, like saying someone eating sushi is eating raw fish, then fine.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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ArachnidinElmet
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
...and saying it as an insult shows the ignorance of the one trying to be insulting, ...

Isn't that the case with most insults? Doesn't stop it being hurtful if it's directed at you.

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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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I accept all you say, Mere Nick - I was trying to explain to myself why "raw meat eater" should be an insult. Anyone for steak tartare?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Soror Magna
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Fundamentally, any difference in culture can be used to create insults. "Garlic eater" can be insulting to different people depending on where you are.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Fundamentally, any difference in culture can be used to create insults. "Garlic eater" can be insulting to different people depending on where you are.

Or, indeed, "cheese-eating surrender monkey..."
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Kaplan Corday
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This thread reminds me of an old episode of Seinfeld in which Jerry is going out with an Indian / Native American girl-friend.

Can't remember the details, but there was some play with the terms "scalper" and "reservation" in connection with the tickets to a baseball game, and Kramer doing an Indian war-whoop from a taxi after buying a tobacco store wooden Indian.

I'm not sure whether it was just done because it seemed funny, or whether it was a deliberate piss-take of the obsessive "walking on eggshells" approach to alleged racism.

The actor who played Kramer was later involved in some very genuine anti-Semitic racism.

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The fractions are a particularly American thing. I sometimes wonder if it isn't to do with needing to find/define identity because of coming from a relatively young country.

Certainly when I hear certain individuals of my acquaintance saying "I'm a quarter German, and a quarter English, and an eighth Scottish…" I have to work hard to restrain myself from snorting and saying "No, no, you're really not. Believe me, you're 100% American." Because while these people may have ancestors from those places, culturally they have very, very little in common with your average European.

More like have much, much more in common with Europe than Europeans will care to admit.
In Australia, people sometimes speak of these fractions but they see themselves as 100% Australian (those who are 2nd generation or more anyway), the fractions are just a way of speaking of their heritage and most likely has something to do with being an immigrant nation, where we come from is vaguely interesting in a talk about it once or twice a year kind of way.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged



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