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Source: (consider it) Thread: Calling People Apes
Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:



As for your theory that he should have gone over and talked to her about her abusive term. If he had done that, you would have heaped even more abuse on him for terrifying a poor little girl.

I'm also sure that his team management far prefers he hand such problem over to security
rather than dispute with the audience. He did exactly the right thing.

Going over to her and aying, "I find that comment offensive and hurtful and don't think you should use it" is worse than having her marched out by security in front of national media?

Really?

quote:
The great puzzle is how he knew it was a racist slur since it's never ever been used that way in Australia.
No puzzle..

Goodes, like me and others, would be aware that in Europe it is a common slur against black players, and can include the brandishing of bananas and mass chanting of monkey sounds accompanied by monkey gestures.

I have never seen or heard of anything remotely like that occurring that at an Australian football match (for which i am grateful, and I trust I never will).

It is obvious from letters to the papers regarding this incident that many other Australians, including the girl, were not aware of the situation in Europe.

[ 01. June 2013, 11:07: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

It is obvious from letters to the papers regarding this incident that many other Australians, including the girl, were not aware of the situation in Europe.

Funny that white people are the least aware.

I worked on a project with a young, white man who told me and an older black woman that racism was a thing of the past. That it did not exist. He seemed to sincerely believe this. We were nonplussed for a moment. Despite our enumerating past and current abuses, he did not recant this belief.

Oh, and as pointed out repeatedly above, it is the situation in Australia as well and the crowd damn well recognised it.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... Not only have I never heard the word “ape” used in a racist sense, but I have never come across such a usage being condemned on the ABC or in the Fairfax press, both of which I listen to and read regularly, and both of which are extremely thorough and alert in exposing racism. ...

Well, the rest of us have. Lots of times. Read the thread, FFS. Ignorance is not the killer debating point you seem to think it is.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Also, the notion that ape is not used in Australia as a racist word is, in my opinion, bullshit. What little bubble are you living in?

Interesting how this didn't get addressed.

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Net Spinster
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For a player to go over to the stands to reprimand someone shouting abuse would guarantee cameras to follow. It would also more likely escalate the situation and still require security to intervene. Goodes did the right thing by having security do its job, crowd control, while he did his, play.

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Latchkey Kid
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In my Australian bubble 'ape' is rarely used, and then only as a friendly confrontation on a minor stupidity. Of course, this does not preclude it being used in a racist manner, but I think it is notable because it is unusual.

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... Not only have I never heard the word “ape” used in a racist sense, but I have never come across such a usage being condemned on the ABC or in the Fairfax press, both of which I listen to and read regularly, and both of which are extremely thorough and alert in exposing racism. ...

Media outlets all around the country certainly condemned it when hundreds of supporters of the Indian cricket team were making primate noises at stadiums around Australia every time Andrew Symonds came on to bat or bowl, and also when there were thousands doing it at their home games.

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Anglican_Brat
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Well, "Christians are monkeys" were sprayed on the walls of Dormition Abbey, the traditional site of Mary's death bed in Jerusalem today:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4386603,00.html

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Well, "Christians are monkeys" were sprayed on the walls of Dormition Abbey, the traditional site of Mary's death bed in Jerusalem today:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4386603,00.html

Wow, there's an Olympic-grade non sequitur.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
If 'ape" has never had a racist application in Australia, then why did the player consider it a racist slur?

Game, set, and match I think!

(Although that weird and rather nasty post about Jews in Germany being better off than blacks in America before 1941 might count as the other side exploding their own argument. Kristallnacht?)

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And that leads in to making it possible for me to post that when I first opened this thread I thought it was going to be about some religious group or other objecting to humans being included with gorillas, chimps, bonobos, orangs and gibbons.

Of course. And as a matter of fact all humans are apes. So what the girl said was literally true. (Though she might not have known that) Which doesn't mean it wasn't meant as a racist insult.

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Before Darwin provided a "scientific" basis for derogating non-white groups, didn't the sort of people who would do that use the story of Ham as a biblical excuse for that sort of behaviour?

I feel honour-bound to point out that Darwin in fact provided a scientific basis for recognising that all humans are the same species (as the Christian Church has always taught but some 19th and early 20 century scientists disputed). And that by the standards of the time he was personally anti-racist - he opposed slavery, he was a member of a committee that campaigned for governor Eyre of Jamaica to be tried for murder after the brutal suppression of a supposed rebellion, he argued against some doctors and scientists who opposed mixed-race marriages on spurious medical grounds.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
In my Australian bubble 'ape' is rarely used, and then only as a friendly confrontation on a minor stupidity. Of course, this does not preclude it being used in a racist manner, but I think it is notable because it is unusual.

Exactly.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and someone, somewhere at some time, in a population of twenty-two million could use the term in a racist sense, but it is unknown to most Australians - until now.

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
In my Australian bubble 'ape' is rarely used, and then only as a friendly confrontation on a minor stupidity. Of course, this does not preclude it being used in a racist manner, but I think it is notable because it is unusual.

Exactly.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and someone, somewhere at some time, in a population of twenty-two million could use the term in a racist sense, but it is unknown to most Australians - until now.

To quote the original post ( by someone called Kaplan Corday)

quote:
For a start, there is no justification these days for any adult to engage in deliberate racial vilification by referring to a black person using any sort of simian terminology, and we have all been sickened by footage of chanting soccer crowds (or sections thereof) doing so to black players in Europe.



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St Deird
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Also, the notion that ape is not used in Australia as a racist word is, in my opinion, bullshit. What little bubble are you living in?

Same one as me, apparently. I've never encountered it as a racial slur in real life - only on the internet, talking to non-Aussies.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
In my Australian bubble 'ape' is rarely used, and then only as a friendly confrontation on a minor stupidity. Of course, this does not preclude it being used in a racist manner, but I think it is notable because it is unusual.

Exactly.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and someone, somewhere at some time, in a population of twenty-two million could use the term in a racist sense, but it is unknown to most Australians - until now.

To quote the original post ( by someone called Kaplan Corday)

quote:
For a start, there is no justification these days for any adult to engage in deliberate racial vilification by referring to a black person using any sort of simian terminology, and we have all been sickened by footage of chanting soccer crowds (or sections thereof) doing so to black players in Europe.



The "all" referred to Shippies following the thread, not to all Australians, as I thought would have been obvious from the context.
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
the crowd damn well recognised it.

A crowd of tens of thousands at a place the size of the MCG could not possibly have known at the time why she was being removed.
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
For a player to go over to the stands to reprimand someone shouting abuse would guarantee cameras to follow. It would also more likely escalate the situation and still require security to intervene. Goodes did the right thing by having security do its job, crowd control, while he did his, play.

Exactly. To portray her being marched out as being bad because she was marched out in front of the national media, but to suggest going over and talking to her WOULDN'T be in front of the national media, is fantasy.

Goodes is one of the greatest, most recognisable players in the league. Goodes interacting with the crowd is news. No matter what the interaction.

[ 02. June 2013, 01:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
In my Australian bubble 'ape' is rarely used, and then only as a friendly confrontation on a minor stupidity. Of course, this does not preclude it being used in a racist manner, but I think it is notable because it is unusual.

Exactly.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and someone, somewhere at some time, in a population of twenty-two million could use the term in a racist sense, but it is unknown to most Australians - until now.

Your sample for most Australians consists of...?

So far on this thread you appear to be in the minority or about even. Sure as heck not most. I'm not suggesting it's the most common racist slur thrown at people with indigenous ancestry but it certainly exists.

[ 02. June 2013, 01:20: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
the crowd damn well recognised it.

A crowd of tens of thousands at a place the size of the MCG could not possibly have known at the time why she was being removed.
[Disappointed] Really? This is your argument, that I did not properly define the scope of "crowd" or that if every person was not aware that it was an outrage or specifically more damaging?
Grasping at the smallest hold is understandable on the edge of a cliff, but a tad desperate in a conversation.

quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Also, the notion that ape is not used in Australia as a racist word is, in my opinion, bullshit. What little bubble are you living in?

Same one as me, apparently. I've never encountered it as a racial slur in real life - only on the internet, talking to non-Aussies.
But surely you understand the difference between "I've never encountered.." and it does not exist?

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Latchkey Kid
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Surely you understand the difference between 'it exists' and 'it is common'.

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
In my Australian bubble 'ape' is rarely used, and then only as a friendly confrontation on a minor stupidity. Of course, this does not preclude it being used in a racist manner, but I think it is notable because it is unusual.

Exactly.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and someone, somewhere at some time, in a population of twenty-two million could use the term in a racist sense, but it is unknown to most Australians - until now.

To quote the original post ( by someone called Kaplan Corday)

quote:
For a start, there is no justification these days for any adult to engage in deliberate racial vilification by referring to a black person using any sort of simian terminology, and we have all been sickened by footage of chanting soccer crowds (or sections thereof) doing so to black players in Europe.



The "all" referred to Shippies following the thread, not to all Australians, as I thought would have been obvious from the context.
Are you saying that Australians are not encompassed in the phrase "any adult"?
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
In my Australian bubble 'ape' is rarely used, and then only as a friendly confrontation on a minor stupidity. Of course, this does not preclude it being used in a racist manner, but I think it is notable because it is unusual.

Exactly.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and someone, somewhere at some time, in a population of twenty-two million could use the term in a racist sense, but it is unknown to most Australians - until now.

To quote the original post ( by someone called Kaplan Corday)

quote:
For a start, there is no justification these days for any adult to engage in deliberate racial vilification by referring to a black person using any sort of simian terminology, and we have all been sickened by footage of chanting soccer crowds (or sections thereof) doing so to black players in Europe.



The "all" referred to Shippies following the thread, not to all Australians, as I thought would have been obvious from the context.
Are you saying that Australians are not encompassed in the phrase "any adult"?
Goodness me, you are getting desperate.

Talk about grasping at straws!

Is it not obvious to you that the "adult" refers to the issue, central to the thread, of whether a thirteen year-old is to be treated exactly the same as an adult?

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St Deird
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But surely you understand the difference between "I've never encountered.." and it does not exist?

Absolutely. And I think Kaplan Corday is (mostly) wrong in his opinions on this.

But, to be fair, I can see where he's coming from on the "but it's not an Australian slur!" thing - because I've never encountered it as one either.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

Is it not obvious to you that the "adult" refers to the issue, central to the thread, of whether a thirteen year-old is to be treated exactly the same as an adult?

Did he even know she was thirteen when he pointed her out? She looks considerably older imo.
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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

Is it not obvious to you that the "adult" refers to the issue, central to the thread, of whether a thirteen year-old is to be treated exactly the same as an adult?

Did he even know she was thirteen when he pointed her out? She looks considerably older imo.
He guessed she was maybe 14 - which is close enough to her real age. I think her face still looks very much that of a girl rather than a woman.

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Goodness me, you are getting desperate.

Talk about grasping at straws!

Is it not obvious to you that the "adult" refers to the issue, central to the thread, of whether a thirteen year-old is to be treated exactly the same as an adult?

We can agree that there's desperation. It's in your series of self contradictory statements.
You both state that all adults are aware of the use of simian racial pejoratives and have been claiming that Australians are unaware of the racial usage of the term ape.

As for your claim that a thirteen year old should be treated differently than an adult, she was treated differently than an adult? There was mention of police complaints that were avoided because of her youth.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is your argument, that I did not properly define the scope of "crowd" or that if every person was not aware that it was an outrage or specifically more damaging?

The proportion of the crowd that expressed disapproval of her is not germane to the issue.

Many might have seen her as having been involved in something with the popular and brilliant Adam Goodes and therefore took his side – for all they knew she could have thrown something at him, spat toward him, or made an offensive comment with no racist content, such as a sexual slur about him or a member of his family.

The tiny proportion of the crowd in her immediate vicinity who would have been able to hear what she said, and who disapproved, might have been objecting to her insulting him as an ape without any awareness of a possible racist connotation to the term.

In other words, it simply doesn’t follow that the proportion of the crowd, small or great, which booed her were doing so because they thought she had been guilty of racism.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

You both state that all adults are aware of the use of simian racial pejoratives and have been claiming that Australians are unaware of the racial usage of the term ape.

It is perfectly possible to be aware that ape can be used as a racial slur, and is in some parts of the world, but to be also aware that the usage is next to non-existent in Australia, as others beside myself have pointed out both on and off the Ship.

quote:
As for your claim that a thirteen year old should be treated differently than an adult, she was treated differently than an adult? There was mention of police complaints that were avoided because of her youth.
Police were called in, but Goodes did not press charges.

If he had, presumably she would have been prosecuted.

A thirteen year-old should not have been publicly evicted in the way she was in the first place.

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bib
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I have been unable to find any Australians in my community whon think ape is a racial slur against Aboriginals. I have heard ape used among people almost as a term of endearment :"oh you big ape". I do not believe that the lass used ape in a racial sense, nor as an endearment, but maybe in frustration for her team and as a comment over the player's hairiness and muscularity. It was really a very mild comment compared with what is heard at the football. IMO Goodes behaved like a prick in his reaction and has ceased to be honourable. It is possible that he was on the lookout for an opportunity to wave his own racial flag during the indigenous football series week and took advantage of the child's outburst. The girl did the wrong thing, but Goodes' behaviour was worse.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

You both state that all adults are aware of the use of simian racial pejoratives and have been claiming that Australians are unaware of the racial usage of the term ape.

It is perfectly possible to be aware that ape can be used as a racial slur, and is in some parts of the world, but to be also aware that the usage is next to non-existent in Australia, as others beside myself have pointed out both on and off the Ship.




So now your argument is that an Australian girl would know perfectly well that ape is capable of being a racial insult, but because she is Australian she is incapable of using it?

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Mili

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Historically it has been used. I did a bit of research of the newspaper archives last night and found lots of articles where scientists, journalists and letter writers compared Aboriginal Australians to apes or the missing link based on their physical features, especially facial features, and culture. The idea started to die out once white people realised that Aboriginal people were more intelligent than they assumed,once white people had total control of all Australia and also after WWII perhaps because people didn't want to be associated with the Nazis. This didn't stop discrimination and racist laws continuing, and even today Aboriginal people are subject to different laws in some parts of Australia eg. the intervention in the Northern Territory. Lots of laws were made in order to 'help' Aboriginal people, but were very patronising and controlling. It was a long time before Aboriginal Australians were equal under law and casual racism and discrimination continue.

Some later articles also refer to Aboriginals living traditionally in a more positive light (the idea of the noble savage), but ridicule Aboriginals who try to ape white behaviour. And yes that is the exact word they use.

I've posted some links below, but beware they are very racist.

Aborigines and Apes


The Missing Link at Last

The Missing Link

The Science Congress

Primitive Man in Ancient Australia

Be Kind to Your Brother, the Monkey

Lecture on Aboriginals 1912

The articles range from the 1900s when the idea of Aboriginal people as close to apes peaked up to the 1920s.

Also we all know what happened in Tasmania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War

Here is a contemporary letter from Dr. Adam Turnbull defending his support of the 'black line'. He goes on a lot but notice he seems far more concerned with his friends family and everyone back in the UK thinking he is a blood thirsty supporter of wholesale massacre than the fact that his is supporting an action that could lead to wholesale massacre. If you read the letters below his you can see that some other Tasmanians were quite willing to massacre the Aboriginals in Tasmania without any qualms. Interestingly at this time there did seem to be more respect for the Aboriginal people as equal opponents, however the settlers could not seem to understand that maybe they didn't have the right to take over the land and saw the only solutions to the 'Aboriginal problem' as subjugation of the indigenous population, removing them from settled land (which eventually would be all of Tasmania anyway)or killing them.

Letter from Tasmanian Adam Turnbull 1830

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Gramps49
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In soccer if someone got red carded for any violation he or she would have been escorted out of the arena as well. As a former referee I see nothing wrong with the way security ushered this 13 out. She was asked to leave. She got up without much protest and she was walked out.

It still bothers me, though, that her grandmother did not walk out with her, but I do not see this as Goode's problem or as a security problem. I place the problem on the grandmother.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... A thirteen year-old should not have been publicly evicted in the way she was in the first place.

How the hell do you remove someone from a public event without the public noticing? If she'd thrown a bottle, she would have been evicted in public. If she had removed her top, she would have been evicted in public. If she had slapped another spectator, she would have been evicted in public. Hell, if she'd barfed up her popcorn, she probably would have been removed.

You seem to have some really wacky standards for dealing with inappropriate behaviour in public. Everyone has to notice, but it should be dealt with so nobody notices. And nobody who is thirteen can ever be held to account for their behaviour, because, well, they're just thirteen.

All public events have behavioural expectations, explicit and implicit. The behaviour of a sporting crowd is different that the behaviour of a theatre audience, but there are still standards at both places, and violating them will get you tossed. You could be tossed for merely texting at the theatre, which wouldn't even be noticed at the game, but the principle is the same: allowing the rest of the audience to continue enjoying the event.

Read the fine print on the back of any ticket to any event. It says the management reserves the right to refuse admission or remove the person for pretty much anything. ETA: It will also say that you agree to be photographed or recorded at the event and those images may be published or broadcast. Management acted within their rights and it's absurd to expect any sort of privacy in the audience at a public event. Discretion, maybe. Privacy, not a chance. Something people of all ages should keep in mind while screaming their heads off at the game.

[ 02. June 2013, 16:12: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Except that I think racism is worse than common abuse. If one footballer calls another a dozy twat, it's no big deal; if he calls him a dozy black twat, that seems in a different category to me.

Can you explain that a little more ?

If someone calls me (just for example) a "dozy English bastard" then - given that I self-identify as English - that seems to me neither more nor less offensive than just calling me a "dozy bastard".

There may be an implication - possibly in the tone of voice used - that that someone doesn't like the English much. Or finds it unsurprising that someone English is acting like a dozy bastard.

But that's speculation about his thoughts. In terms of his speech-acts, he has not asserted anything about the English in general. Only that this particular specimen is both dozy and a bastard.

So in the improbable scenario that it was unlawful to express anti-English opinion, I would have to find him not guilty. It is perfectly consistent with the view that the English are no better and no worse than other nations that one of them should happen to be a dozy bastard.

quote:
Racism has so many cultural and historical associations, that it is (rightly, in my view) considered to be heinous.
I agree that racism is a serious enough issue that we rightly tolerate some curtailment of freedom of speech in order that a generation or three should grow up with the notion that black-skinned people are inherently no better and no worse than light-skinned people. In contrast to the views of various societies in the past.

But in order to be a heinous offence something has to be well-defined; a person of goodwill cannot commit a heinous offence by accident; it requires malice.

And if someone is accused of a heinous offence then they have a right to be considered as innocent until proven guilty. In contrast, if you're just using "racist" as a neutral descriptive term meaning something like "pertaining to race" then you can apply it and debate its applicability as you please.

If "black" or "racist" or "cretin" or any other term is recognised as derogatory then you have to be careful how you apply it. Conversely if "black" or "racist" or "cretin" is a value-neutral description of someone's skin colour, political philosophy or mental ability then it's applicability should be capable of detached and dispassionate discussion.

You seem to want to jump from one to the other as it suits you.
Racism as serious crime vs racism as ill-defined concept that we can all chat about down the pub without dissing anyone. Black as derogatory vs black as definitely-not-derogatory.

Do please explain.

Best wishes,

Russ

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Except that I think racism is worse than common abuse. If one footballer calls another a dozy twat, it's no big deal; if he calls him a dozy black twat, that seems in a different category to me.

Can you explain that a little more ?

If someone calls me (just for example) a "dozy English bastard" then - given that I self-identify as English - that seems to me neither more nor less offensive than just calling me a "dozy bastard".

Russ

It is about power. It is about history. when a group you belong to has been enslaved, wholesale slaughtered or made second class in their own lands, then you might understand the comparisons.

Kudos to those who are not marginalised yet still comprehend.

[ 02. June 2013, 16:39: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Soror Magna
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And the Double Daily of racism and sexism is when people assume -- based on nothing more than my sex and skin colour -- that I am employed as a nurse or housekeeper, not an administrator.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Golden Key
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{{{{Soror Magna}}}}

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Historically it has been used. I did a bit of research of the newspaper archives last night and found lots of articles where scientists, journalists and letter writers compared Aboriginal Australians to apes or the missing link based on their physical features, especially facial features, and culture.

There was an outburst worldwide of that sort of thing during the second half of the nineteenth century and the early years of the twentieth, as a result of the popularisation and misunderstanding of Darwinism which flowed from the publication of The Origin Of Species in 1859 - which is not to blame Darwin for the misuse of his ideas.

It was offensive and wrongheaded, but a completely different phenomenon from present deliberate attempts by racists (who have probably never heard of Darwin) to vilify blacks by identifying them with monkeys.

Have you read The Lamb Enters The Dreaming by Robert Kenny?

Amongst other things, he shows the way in which Christians in Australia and the United States opposed the theory of non-Europeans' sub-humanity by asserting a biblical anthropology based on the KJV translation of Acts 17:26, "one blood" (the title of John Harris's classic history of the "Aboriginal Encounter With Christianity", which I hope you have also read).

[ 03. June 2013, 05:41: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

So now your argument is that an Australian girl would know perfectly well that ape is capable of being a racial insult, but because she is Australian she is incapable of using it?

I don’t believe that you cannot grasp that it is possible to be aware that the comparison of black people to monkeys occurs, particularly in Europe, and simultaneously aware that the practice is virtually unknown in Australia.

Goodes was aware of the usage, which explains his anger but does not justify his response.

The girl, like many Australians, obviously did not understand the possible racist connotations of the term until they were explained to her.

If she had known previously, then she would have been culpable, but not, in a civilized society, treated as being as culpable as an adult who had knowingly done the same thing.

Incidentally, it will cheer you up to know that I have discovered one case from 1986 of Australian spectators making monkey noises at a black cricketer, though there is no record of their doing the same to his black team-mates, which could mean that the insult was caused by his (apparently distinctive) physique rather than his colour.

[ 03. June 2013, 06:07: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
The behaviour of a sporting crowd is different that the behaviour of a theatre audience, but there are still standards at both places, and violating them will get you tossed.

You are begging the question by assuming that she did something wrong.

She didn't.

There is no standard at AFL matches which requires that spectators cannot liken players - or umpires - to animals.

She called him an ape, which to her and the vast majority of Australians was no worse than calling a player a pig or a donkey, the sort of insult which would pass unnoticed.

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

Incidentally, it will cheer you up to know that I have discovered one case from 1986 of Australian spectators making monkey noises at a black cricketer, though there is no record of their doing the same to his black team-mates, which could mean that the insult was caused by his (apparently distinctive) physique rather than his colour.

Are you referring to the 2007 incident with the touring Indian cricket team player allegedly calling
Andrew Symmonds a monkey or an earlier episode?

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:


Russ

It is about power. It is about history. [/QB][/QUOTE]

It is also about choice and perception.

My ancestors came from Wales, and I could choose to believe that I had a grievance because the "racially" different English violently subjugated us under Edward I and Henry IV, and then culturally vilified us ("Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief...").

As it happens I do not labour under any self-pity on this score, and would be derisively dismissive of any others of Welsh background who claimed to do so, but it illustrates the problem of whether a subjective perception of historical victimhood should preclude any critical analysis of the phenomenon by those outside the group.

It is also selective.

For example, the anti-Semitic racism which from time to time breaks through the "anti-Zionism" veneer of BDS campaigns gets precious short shrift from professional anti-racists.

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Mili

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I haven't read those particluar books Kaplan Corday, however I have read about and watched documentaries on the role of missions in Australia and the good and bad they did for Indigenous Australians. There were definitely contemporary people who stood up against the scientific racism of their times, although some of those people still saw Aborginal people as inferior and suited to servant or farm hand roles in Australian society. Other missions educated Aboriginal people equally as they would white people which helped break down the stereotypes that Aboriginal people were less intelligent, rational or logical than white people.
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Mili

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I've also heard Scott Darlow, an Aboriginal Christian speaker, talk about reconciliation and the experiences his mother's family had living on a mission. I found a podcast from when he spoke at Essendon Baptist Community Church and I hope it's within ships rules to link it here if you or anyone else would like to listen. Darlow begins the talk about reconciliation at around the 17 minute mark.

I realised from checking preview post that it only links to the podcast page, but if you click on speaker it rearranges the podcasts alphabetically by speakers' first names and you can scroll down to find Scott Darlow's podcast near the bottom.

[ 03. June 2013, 08:19: Message edited by: Mili ]

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

Incidentally, it will cheer you up to know that I have discovered one case from 1986 of Australian spectators making monkey noises at a black cricketer, though there is no record of their doing the same to his black team-mates, which could mean that the insult was caused by his (apparently distinctive) physique rather than his colour.

Are you referring to the 2007 incident with the touring Indian cricket team player allegedly calling
Andrew Symmonds a monkey or an earlier episode?

I found a Sydney Morning Herald article making reference to an England player being abused in that way in 1986 in Melbourne. Being a player on the English side (which has only ever had one or maybe two black players at any one time) would seem to indicate it was a clear cut episode of racism, there being only a 9% chance of the abused player happening to be the one black player on the team if it was not a racist attack. As far as I know there has never been a white player on an Australian or English team pelted with bananas and abused with monkey noises, which would narrow the margin even more.

The 2007-08 incidents were a completely separate deal, and perpetrated by Indian spectators and (allegedly) one Indian player.


I don't think the majority of people who were at that 1986 match at the MCG or the thousands of Collingwood fans who abused Nicky Winmar at Victoria Park 20 years ago are likely to be any less racist than they used to be. They have probably just grown older and no longer go to the cricket/football, or they do but they don't voice their racist prejudices because they don't want to get caught.

I don't blame white Australians for being brought up assuming certain racist prejudices, for most it's something their parents passed down to them. What's more important is what they do with it once their casual racism or latent racism is exposed for what they are - some realise they are wrong, others just keep it to themselves so they don't face any consequences, others don't back down and find themselves in hot water when it catches up with them, and still others make awkward and contradictory long-winded explanations (maybe on an internet forum) trying to justify why their casual racism or latent racism is not racism.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

So now your argument is that an Australian girl would know perfectly well that ape is capable of being a racial insult, but because she is Australian she is incapable of using it?

I don’t believe that you cannot grasp that it is possible to be aware that the comparison of black people to monkeys occurs, particularly in Europe, and simultaneously aware that the practice is virtually unknown in Australia.

Goodes was aware of the usage, which explains his anger but does not justify his response.

The girl, like many Australians, obviously did not understand the possible racist connotations of the term until they were explained to her.

If she had known previously, then she would have been culpable, but not, in a civilized society, treated as being as culpable as an adult who had knowingly done the same thing.

Incidentally, it will cheer you up to know that I have discovered one case from 1986 of Australian spectators making monkey noises at a black cricketer, though there is no record of their doing the same to his black team-mates, which could mean that the insult was caused by his (apparently distinctive) physique rather than his colour.

There's nothing obvious about your use of the word obvious here. Maybe you know something I don't because I'm halfway around the world right now, but it sounds a heck of a lot like you've projected your view onto the girl. If she says she understands the term is racist, how exactly is it 'obvious' that her understanding only arose once she was in trouble?

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orfeo

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By the way, your logic is also requiring the insult to be incredibly rare in Australia yet to have been experienced by a particular individual, Goodes, more than once in his life. So what are you saying? That he's just a really unlucky statistical fluke?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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Also, can we at least put aside any cultural use of ape as a term of endearment as completely bloody irrelevant. I don't care what age she is, a collingwood supporter is NOT yelling out a term at a Sydney player because she thinks it's a term of endearment she's heard Collingwood folk use to describe each other. The context is completely at odds with her having that kind of understanding. She meant it as an insult!! The only possible question is precisely what kind of insult she meant it as.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
And the Double Daily of racism and sexism is when people assume -- based on nothing more than my sex and skin colour -- that I am employed as a nurse or housekeeper, not an administrator.

I'll let you say how you feel about that - I don't want to put words in your mouth.

But can you tell the difference between
- those who make an honest mistake through responding to what is in their experience statistically most likely, without having any axe to grind or any emotional investment in that perception
- those who are surprised because they tend to think dark-skinned people inherently incapable of filling white-collar positions
- those who are surprised because they want to believe that having a dark skin is an automatic marker of victim status
?
Do you use the terms "racist" and "racism" for all three groups ?

Best wishes,

Russ

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Soror Magna
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Working backwards:

quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Do you use the terms "racist" and "racism" for all three groups ?

I make an effort to refer to racist statements, behaviours, etc. rather than racist people. I probably slip occasionally, from carelessness or worse. Sorry.

quote:
- those who are surprised because they want to believe that having a dark skin is an automatic marker of victim status
I couldn't say, having never encountered such a thing. I am, however, reminded of Jon Stewart joking, "Because Barack Obama is President, ipso facto, Wingardium leviosa, racism is over!"

quote:
- those who are surprised because they tend to think dark-skinned people inherently incapable of filling white-collar positions
Racism is one possible description. Really dumb is another - after all, dark-skinned people work in all professions all around the world.

quote:
- those who make an honest mistake through responding to what is in their experience statistically most likely, without having any axe to grind or any emotional investment in that perception
Yes, that is an example of racism. Why? Because it is applied selectively. If you happen to have three friends who are Irish and are all librarians, it's an amusing coincidence. When introduced to another Irish person, it would never occur to you to say, "Hey, you must be a librarian!" But if you happen to have, oh, say, two or three Asian or South Asian friends in technical professions, it might seem perfectly natural to start a conversation with certain persons with, "So, do you work in IT?" See the difference? Some people are subjected to statistical assumptions, others are not.

Nice people seem to have real trouble recognizing anything other than the nastiest forms of racism e.g. discrimination or violence, but those are not the only ways racism manifests itself. Is being subjected to occasional rudeness better than suffering violence or discrimination? Well, yeah, sure, but they still all come from the same roots. History has shown over and over that it doesn't take much for those roots to grow into something awful. That's why mild forms of racism or prejudice still need to be identified and challenged - they're fertile soil for worse racism to grow.

All humans have a kind of us/them hard-wiring, but that particular trait, which was once a survival skill, is of less and less usefulness in the modern world (to put it mildly.) Globalization and immigration, ethnic and religious barriers weakening, travelling and studying abroad --- there are myriad forces moving people around the globe, and it will only increase as time goes on. We're all going to have to get used to seeing lots of faces that are not like our own. Seeing them as people is even better.

TL;DR - Huh? Yes. Yes.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By the way, your logic is also requiring the insult to be incredibly rare in Australia yet to have been experienced by a particular individual, Goodes, more than once in his life.

Calling someone an ape is not all that uncommon an insult.

What is rare in Australia is its use as a racial insult.

Goodes made a mistake in assuming the thirteen year-old meant it as a racial insult, and not the sort of harmless animal insult which is acceptable at football matches, and it is possible he similarly misconstrued it in the past on the basis of his knowledge of its being so used in other countries.

The girl only stated that it was a racial slur after she was taken into custody by a number of adult authority figures, including police, who told her it was racist.

She had no adult to stick up for her and put her side, except her grandmother, who was called in belatedly, and was probably as frightened and overawed by the whole disgraceful overreaction as her grand-daughter.

In the circumstances, what else was someone that age going to say?

Speaking of primate labels, I just remembered today that the old VFL club Fitzroy, now the AFL club Brisbane, was known as the Gorillas when I was a very small child.

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