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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Assimilation: The Borg of Culture
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
How are we defining culture here? To me it includes things like food, music, traditional festivals and activities and so on. Option 2. would imply, therefore, that immigrants give up all the above. Is it really a problem for the host culture that immigrants eat different food, listen to different music or have a big dinner on a different date? I'm not sure it is. And I'd be surprised if Marvin does either. So I'm wondering what people mean by "culture", "assimilation" and for that matter "accommodate".
I'll add that to my earlier question.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are we defining culture here? To me it includes things like food, music, traditional festivals and activities and so on. Option 2. would imply, therefore, that immigrants give up all the above. Is it really a problem for the host culture that immigrants eat different food, listen to different music or have a big dinner on a different date? I'm not sure it is. And I'd be surprised if Marvin does either. So I'm wondering what people mean by "culture", "assimilation" and for that matter "accommodate".
I'll add that to my earlier question.
We also seem to be circling round the issue of imposition or hegemony. I mean, that you could take assimilation to mean that the host culture has swallowed up the new one, or has imposed a hegemony. However, this may not be true, since it may just happen.
The same in reverse - some immigrants may impose their own way of life, as in Australia.
I suppose these possibilities arouse a lot of fear in people - that they might be overwhelmed in some way.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: I don't see why, though. It's a perfectly valid option.
And I'm sure that marmite is a perfectly valid kind of food spread. That doesn't mean I can't reject it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Badger Lady
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# 13453
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Posted
As others have said: how to we measure assimilation? How much assimilation is enough? Is it enough to assimilate your public life? Or do we require assimilation of private/home life as well?
To use the example of the non-white side of my family.
First generation: came to UK 1960s from Pakistan and settled in Scotland. Everyone spoke English as they had previously lived in Kenya. My grandfather worked as a bus conductor. My uncle a shop keeper.
Second generation (i.e my cousins): speak English and varying amounts of Punjabi/Urdu. Went to Scottish schools and universities and have strong Scottish accents. Are variously, lawyers, accountants, pharmacists, and one is an elected member of the Scottish parliament.
However, in many aspects there are differences from mainstream UK life. For example: most marriages are arranged to some degree; almost all food will be Asian (although washed down with Irn Bru). All the women wear hijab and there is segregation of men and women and most events. Christmas would not be celebrated but Eid would. Most friends would be Muslims from the Asian community. Etc.
Are they assimilated? Part assimilated to UK culture? How do you distinguish religious aspects (are we expecting those to adapt to the prevailing culture) from 'cultural' aspects?
Many questions. I have few answers.
Posts: 340 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2008
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
But Badger Lady, do you expect the next generation to be surfers or basket-weavers?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Badger Lady
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# 13453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But Badger Lady, do you expect the next generation to be surfers or basket-weavers?
The one third generation candidate is only two. He does like water though...
Posts: 340 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Badger Lady: The one third generation candidate is only two. He does like water though...
Did you try to play some Beach Boys songs, just to see how he will react? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are we defining culture here? To me it includes things like food, music, traditional festivals and activities and so on. Option 2. would imply, therefore, that immigrants give up all the above. Is it really a problem for the host culture that immigrants eat different food, listen to different music or have a big dinner on a different date? I'm not sure it is. And I'd be surprised if Marvin does either. So I'm wondering what people mean by "culture", "assimilation" and for that matter "accommodate".
I'll add that to my earlier question.
Culture is lifestyle including all of the above Karl, it's attitude to life according to upbringing and the religious and historic influences imprinted upon us. We are different. There are implications to immigration. Assimilation is a painful process for both the incomers and the indigenous population. That is not to say that it is not worthwhile, but the costs don't seem to be recognised or factored in when the decisions are made.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I am not aware of any way in which it's been painful for me. Or any other member of the non-immigrant population. I think it's time for specifics - what, exactly, are the "indigenous" population being asked to do, and in what way is it painful or unreasonable? What are these costs that are not being factored in? This is a genuine question.
[ 04. June 2013, 13:04: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
There are lots of painful fantasies, which people endure, such as 'they're taking all the local jobs/houses/women'. I suppose the solution here is to give up the fantasies, but that's probably asking too much.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well, yes, the only difference immigration has made to my day to day life is that I see more brown people around. I can't help feeling that objecting to that would be sort of by definition racist, so assuming that objections aren't racism based, it must be something else that I've not noticed.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But Karl, it just shows how unobservant you are. Those brown people, whom you mention so casually, are actually taking nearly all the jobs, they are obtaining new houses, and I'm afraid that many of them are benefit scroungers, and deliberately have lots of kids to that end. Well, that't just the start of it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But Karl, it just shows how unobservant you are. Those brown people, whom you mention so casually, are actually taking nearly all the jobs, they are obtaining new houses, and I'm afraid that many of them are benefit scroungers, and deliberately have lots of kids to that end. Well, that't just the start of it.
Funny thing is, in Daily Mail Land, that means they're just like the indigenous dole-scum who are also despised. Assimilated, in other words.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I am not aware of any way in which it's been painful for me. Or any other member of the non-immigrant population. I think it's time for specifics - what, exactly, are the "indigenous" population being asked to do, and in what way is it painful or unreasonable? What are these costs that are not being factored in? This is a genuine question.
I might repeat what I've said above, but I'll leave others to put it into different words.
I have been through the pain from both directions.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Although, in the part of Norfolk I live in, the local wisdom is that the East Europeans do the jobs in the fields that the local white kids refuse to do, e.g. pick sugar beet. Pretty back-breaking work.
Presumably, by the 3rd generation, the Lithuanians will turn their nose up also, and sit in their bedrooms, playing the guitar and going on Facebook.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I am not aware of any way in which it's been painful for me. Or any other member of the non-immigrant population. I think it's time for specifics - what, exactly, are the "indigenous" population being asked to do, and in what way is it painful or unreasonable? What are these costs that are not being factored in? This is a genuine question.
I might repeat what I've said above, but I'll leave others to put it into different words.
I have been through the pain from both directions.
Well can you be specific so that I know what we're talking about? These generalities are making absolutely nothing clear to me at all.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How are we defining culture here? To me it includes things like food, music, traditional festivals and activities and so on. Option 2. would imply, therefore, that immigrants give up all the above. Is it really a problem for the host culture that immigrants eat different food, listen to different music or have a big dinner on a different date? I'm not sure it is. And I'd be surprised if Marvin does either. So I'm wondering what people mean by "culture", "assimilation" and for that matter "accommodate".
I'll add that to my earlier question.
In places like the US where we pride ourselves (perhaps falsely) on being a "nation of immigrants" (take that, native Americans...) those obvious cultural markers are probably not a problem-- we'll just find a way to bastardize your nat'l foods and mass produce them in a fast food franchise and then call it our own.
The real problem is what's called "invisible culture"-- the endless list of subconscious, unspoken embedded beliefs and practices that make up every culture. Things that are much more subtle than food or holidays, things you only notice when they're violated because to those who are part of the culture it doesn't seem like "culture" it just seems "normal". For example, when I was in central Africa it took me a very long time to figure out that people in that particular country didn't say "no". Part of their culture is to try to please people, and they do that by basically telling you what you want to hear. Once I realized that, I was able to adapt my behavior accordingly (never ask a yes/no question if you really need a truthful answer-- rephrase the question). But until I did, it caused some real problems/hardships for me. Once I did I recognized a complementary American embedded cultural norm that I previously hadn't been aware of-- we are rather direct speakers, tend to answer questions bluntly, perhaps even rudely. Standing in line/ not standing is another area that often is subject to invisible cultural norms.
Once you recognize the invisible culture you can generally find ways to navigate around it. But recognizing it-- unweaving those subconscious patterns and norms-- is extraordinarily difficult because no one, including your hosts, is aware of it. Unlike things like music or food or holidays, no handbook is going to guide you to them, because the majority culture isn't even aware of them-- they're just part of the air we breathe.
And that is where the real assimilation problems come in-- where you're apt to get flack for not assimilating or face invisible barriers where you keep getting shut out socially or professionally but don't know why.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yeah, I can see the cultural barriers issues and misunderstandings the immigrant faces. What I'm not sure is what cultural changes the indigenous population is being required to make, because I'm just not seeing how, culturally, my life is any different than it would be if everyone in the UK had been born here for the last three generations. I'd have fewer cultural options available, sure, but I can't see anything I've had to change, or had to give up. I can't see any cost to me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah, I can see the cultural barriers issues and misunderstandings the immigrant faces. What I'm not sure is what cultural changes the indigenous population is being required to make, because I'm just not seeing how, culturally, my life is any different than it would be if everyone in the UK had been born here for the last three generations. I'd have fewer cultural options available, sure, but I can't see anything I've had to change, or had to give up. I can't see any cost to me.
Again, I don't think you have to "give up" too much in the obvious cultural markers-- food, holidays, etc. But if you don't catch on to those invisible cultural markers quickly you will be isolated and held back socially and probably professionally/ economically. You'll encounter unexpected obstacles/ barriers but won't really be able to figure out why-- nor will anyone be able to tell you why, because again, those cultural norms are invisible to everyone-- they're just "there"-- the way we do things w/o even realizing it. It won't be intentional on anyone's part, but it can cause real hardships.
A couple of minor league examples:
Our first day in Africa, we were trying to find the farm we were staying at, but none of the streets had street signs. We were driving down the road we thought was the one we were looking for, but didn't see the farm. We stopped to ask several passerbys if this was "X road". Being very friendly and, again, eager to please, they all were happy to stop and chat. And they all answered our "is this X road?" question "yes". This continued for a long time, driving farther and farther from our destination, until we finally changed the question to "how do we find X road?". The first person we asked jumped in the car and directed us personally to the door of our destination. Very African-- very unAmerican way of doing things. We were disadvantaged until we figured out that invisible culture.
A friend who grew up a MK (missionary kid) in Thailand told me that Thai "always offer a gift 3 times". It's rude to say yes the first time-- seems greedy and grasping-- so a host will offer 3x. When she came to the US the first time to go to college, she was in a friend's dorm room hanging out with other girls and the host offered her a cookie. Despite wanting a cookie, she of course said no, whereupon the others proceeded to eat all the cookies. She was disadvantaged until she figured out that invisible cultural norm.
Other, more serious, consequences could ensue as one tries to navigate, say, an unfamiliar health care system, employment, social services, etc.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Cliffdweller - that's more examples of problems and accommodations the immigrant has to make. The claim I'm investigating is that the host, indigenous population is being required to make changes to its culture to accommodate immigrants, but no-one seems able to give me a concrete example of this.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Cliffdweller - that's more examples of problems and accommodations the immigrant has to make. The claim I'm investigating is that the host, indigenous population is being required to make changes to its culture to accommodate immigrants, but no-one seems able to give me a concrete example of this.
Agh, sorry, misread the question (obviously). Yeah, I'm not seeing too much of that either. It would be nice if the host culture would take on some of that burden-- take on more of the responsibility to try to understand the immigrant's culture, as well as be watchful of our own invisible culture (altho that's very hard to do), trying to make it more explicit and visible, but can't see too many ways we're required to do that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Cliffdweller - that's more examples of problems and accommodations the immigrant has to make. The claim I'm investigating is that the host, indigenous population is being required to make changes to its culture to accommodate immigrants, but no-one seems able to give me a concrete example of this.
Okay, simple example: primary schools.
In primary schools, the language of communication is English, except that children of first-generation immigrants may not speak any English, and neither do their parents. Therefore, since education is compulsory, some accommodation must be made by the school to initially translate classroom instructions into the first language, and concurrently, teach the child English at a fast enough rate that they can function at their age ability, not just their language ability.
This extra help will involve time, money, and effort on behalf of the indigenous English teachers and other staff.
Schools will also be expected to accommodate non-Christian religious festivals, non-indigenous clothing into the uniform, source school meals to comply with dietary laws, and incorporate the diverse faiths of the pupils into the curriculum.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Karl, I think it is hard because the dominant population* changes very little, it is slow and it is voluntary.
Music might be one example. Rock and roll, though that is not completely straightforward.
Really, it seems to be more, "Why ain't them like us? Innit."
*I say dominant population because the indigenous are generally required to give up their lands and rights or just die already.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Cliffdweller - that's more examples of problems and accommodations the immigrant has to make. The claim I'm investigating is that the host, indigenous population is being required to make changes to its culture to accommodate immigrants, but no-one seems able to give me a concrete example of this.
For one thing, if you ever get annoyed at them for failing to understand the sort of things cliffdweller describes, you get called racist scum. And then you get told that in order to not be racist scum you have to do things the way the immigrants prefer to do them.
Doc Tor mentions another good one. Kids can't learn as much in schools because significant amounts of teacher time are being taken up in teaching their classmates how to speak english.
There are also things like (male) healthcare professionals being told they're not allowed to treat some of their (female) patients. Ordinarily that would be considered as discrimination, but because there are "cultural differences" it suddenly becomes OK.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Perhaps I'm driving an unnecessary distinction between accommodations andcultural changes required of the host population. What you're describing seems to me to be the former, rather than the latter. It's not that they're unimportant, but they don't quite seem to me to be cultural changes.
Again, perhaps the distinction is in my mind.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
An accomodation that becomes permanent is a cultural change.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
An accomodation that becomes permanent is a cultural change.
Yeah, I was thinking more in terms of changing the way we live our private lives, rather than what provisions organisations are required to make, when I heard the words "cultural change".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
We, none of us, practice the culture if our ancestors unchanged. There has been cultural accommodation, and likely resistance to it, as long as there has been culture. We are merely used to the changes that were made.
And what of Muslim requirements? They are the same for an immigrant as they are for a native born white convert.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What I see people doing on this thread, is reject solution 2.
I don't see why, though. It's a perfectly valid option.
It's not that easy.
Consider:
"Have another cookie (biscuit)"
One response is to take it and eat it. But this may be entirely wrong in another culture like in parts of Canada, where you should say that you don't think you should, and the host(ess) insists, and you finally take it and say thank-you. The first response is actually rather rude if there are less cookies than people, even if there are enough for the guests. With my German relatives it you refuse the cookie, it is immediately taken away.
Consider:
"Does this shirt/dress etc look better on me, or does this one?"
To say directly which one you think would be rude here. But not for my German cousins where they find the Canadian process of discussion to determine the question-asker's preference before answering absurd, while we find them rude. They specifically said that the person wants to know, so you tell them. Whereas the Canadian discussion is about making the person confident in their own choice and really is not about the opinion of the person being asked.
Consider:
"Why did the German cross the road?"
Because the little walking man is lighted up and it is permitted.
"Why did the Canadian cross the road?"
Because there were no cars and they wanted to cross the road. -- Waiting when there are no cars or the cars are a long way off is not generally done and stigmatized here.
Consider that it is usual for a mother to give a child to her own mother or to a sister to be raised in some First Nations (aboriginal) cultures in Canada, and that cousins are considered brothers and sisters. There is a majority of First Nations in some Canadian districts. Would those who advocate assimilation into the dominant culture consider it reasonable that they give their children to relatives to raise? Or if they haven't local relatives, to a neighbour family who has been very helpful with their settlement into the country and community, and thus is "like family" in the eyes of the community?
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[qb] Cliffdweller - that's more examples of problems and accommodations the immigrant has to make. The claim I'm investigating is that the host, indigenous population is being required to make changes to its culture to accommodate immigrants, but no-one seems able to give me a concrete example of this.
For one thing, if you ever get annoyed at them for failing to understand the sort of things cliffdweller describes, you get called racist scum. And then you get told that in order to not be racist scum you have to do things the way the immigrants prefer to do them./QB]
Not usually. There are a few lofty (and annoying) conversations like that around academia, but not so much in the Real World. Usually it's the other way 'round. Immigrants are expected to *know* what "everyone else" knows-- the invisible majority culture.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What I see people doing on this thread, is reject solution 2.
I don't see why, though. It's a perfectly valid option.
I haven't changed from being Anglican to RC since I moved to Poland. I still have pancakes on Shrove Tuesday. We have 12 dishes on Christmas Eve and then pots with veg and gravy followed by Christmas Pudding on Christmas Day. I speak a lot of English with my wife (though mainly only Polish with other Polish people).
I prepare German young people to go to GB. They come back having picked up a like (or dislike) of fish 'n' chips and a good cup of tea, but had yearnings for German bread (seeing as British bread is generally so poor). I also do seminars for people from across Europe, the Middle East and North Africa who are working in Germany. They still do things like listen to music in Arabic, receives parcels of Israeli hummus, speak English in the flat which they share with others.
I've never seen assimilation happen. I've seen plenty of adaptation (learning a new language, trying to understand a different culture of communication, working different working-hours). As I pointed out earlier, no matter what, the contact of people with other people changes them both.
As someone from Wales who knew English schoolchildren in my school who refused to learn Welsh and laughed at Welsh culture, I am aware that migrants can behave in less than ideal ways. For me though the issue is of a shared living space. How best do we live together? That question is the reality of daily life.
Of course, it's when we only talk (or concentrate on) of migrants from abroad (as opposed to internal migration) when we talk about unemployment or a lack of housing without mentioning the context of governments over the past decades who have created this situation, or capitalism per se when we get into dodgy territory. I mean, these problems have many causes, some more than others, but for many it's migration that has to be dealt with.
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
We, none of us, practice the culture if our ancestors unchanged. There has been cultural accommodation, and likely resistance to it, as long as there has been culture. We are merely used to the changes that were made.
Though a migrant won't get used to changes in the homeland culture. Two examples not a million miles from my own family. A man who came to the UK in his youth, apparently didn't assimilate much, identifying still with his birthplace though didn't visit there for almost 40 years. When he did, he was so disturbed at the changes he found, he couldn't bear to go back again. His old, rooted home didn't exist any more. And then, a British born couple who migrated to the US in the 70's. They consider themselves assimilated, say they "feel" American. They visit the UK quite frequently, but over the 20+ years I've known them, seem increasingly unhappy at the changes they find here - as though they'd rather 70's Britain was still around for their homeland fix.
So, it can be tough to engage with an adopted culture, but perhaps even harder to keep in touch with one you've left. If you need, or choose, to jump, you'd better love where you've landed.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QUOTE]Doc Tor mentions another good one. Kids can't learn as much in schools because significant amounts of teacher time are being taken up in teaching their classmates how to speak english.
Marvin, as I read Doc Tor, he didn't actually say that any kids were suffering as a result of this. He just said it presents a need for greater resources. In my experience, children of first-generation immigrants pick up English remarkably quickly, often acting as translators for their parents in meetings!
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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Marvin the Martian: Doc Tor mentions another good one. Kids can't learn as much in schools because significant amounts of teacher time are being taken up in teaching their classmates how to speak english.
And what would be your solution to this?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
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Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
[QUOTE]
I've never seen assimilation happen. I've seen plenty of adaptation (learning a new language, trying to understand a different culture of communication, working different working-hours). As I pointed out earlier, no matter what, the contact of people with other people changes them both.
OK, I'll bite. Clearly you have some more technical definitions in mind than the way we're using the terms. So, please-- what is the distinction between "assimilation" and "adaptation"?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
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Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: Doc Tor mentions another good one. Kids can't learn as much in schools because significant amounts of teacher time are being taken up in teaching their classmates how to speak english.
And what would be your solution to this?
Do not immediately immigrate. Starve and die until one learns the future host's language and customs. Oh, and create a hitherto non-existent job in the host country.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Cliffdweller - that's more examples of problems and accommodations the immigrant has to make. The claim I'm investigating is that the host, indigenous population is being required to make changes to its culture to accommodate immigrants, but no-one seems able to give me a concrete example of this.
Okay, simple example: primary schools.
In primary schools, the language of communication is English, except that children of first-generation immigrants may not speak any English, and neither do their parents. Therefore, since education is compulsory, some accommodation must be made by the school to initially translate classroom instructions into the first language, and concurrently, teach the child English at a fast enough rate that they can function at their age ability, not just their language ability.
This extra help will involve time, money, and effort on behalf of the indigenous English teachers and other staff.
Schools will also be expected to accommodate non-Christian religious festivals, non-indigenous clothing into the uniform, source school meals to comply with dietary laws, and incorporate the diverse faiths of the pupils into the curriculum.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) That's not how it works.
According to the Ontario Ministry of Education, English-language learners (started school with a first language other than English) take five years to catch up with their Anglophone peers. AIUI, intensive support is generally concentrated in the first two years.
Canadian schools (education is provincial) receive federal grants for the ESL support of immigrant children. The costs for the much larger number of Canadian children born in Canada whose first language is not English or French (children of immigrant parents) are born entirely by the province. Nobody complains about this.
Example, the Toronto District School Board, who are experts at educating immigrant children.
Ontario doesn't have any mandatory religious component in its curriculum except for one elective course in high school, in the public system. Most provinces are the same. We don't have an established religion here.
Schools give statutory holidays off, so that's the province's call, and it means Christmas and Good Friday, along with Victoria Day (very secular) and New Year's which tags along with Christmas in the Christmas break. And now Family Day, our new February Statutory Holiday.
Ontario schools do not "accommodate" religion any further than parent's may excuse their children from school for a day, but that applies to many things.
Canadian schools generally do not require uniforms and those that do have khakis and cotton shirts; headgear requirements are almost unknown. And headgear is the most common item of religious clothing.
The Canadian Forces Cadets, who focus on high schoolers, are very popular with immigrant families. The Toronto Garrison cadet graduation features Loyalist, Protestant Canada at its very best, British-style uniforms, a kilted Highland regiment, pipes, drums and bands galore, the Queen's and Regimental colours, the works. The Canadian Forces, in best Commonwealth tradition, has always accepted Turbans and given the Turban example, nearly all religious gear has precise uniform specifications so the Drill Sergeants are always prepared.
Did I say that the Cadets are majority non-white in Toronto?
What's the problem? Canada's done this multicultural-integration thing for over a century. It works.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That's not how it works.
Does in the UK. And I work in a primary school.
I've been called on to give 1-to-1 language support in various lessons. School uniforms almost universally have a Sharia-compliant version. RE (or whichever letter-combination it now exists under) is multi-faith. Taking a child out of school for a religious observance has its own code in the register. etc.
I appreciate the point upthread that these are more 'accommodations' than they are 'transformations', but for those unused to such, they can feel like one compromise too far. However, if we're going to see, say muslim girls from observant families, educated at all, then accommodations regarding uniform and diet are necessary.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
There are some cultural habits that I don't want brought into my country even though some immigrants may fervently believe in them eg FGM, everyone toting guns, polygamy to name a few. When you go to a new country I think you have to largely adopt that country's culture and laws otherwise you should have chosen to remain in your own homeland.Cultural diversity enriches a country but not to the point that new customs replace accepted values.
It was interesting to note that my mother always referred to England as 'home' until she returned there after 15 years. After that on returning to Australia, she referred to her new country as home even though she wasn't aware she had made the switch(we children noticed however). She even started to barrack for the Aussie cricket team! Assimilation takes time, but I feel it is important for this to happen to feel happy in the new home.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That's not how it works.
Does in the UK. And I work in a primary school.
I've been called on to give 1-to-1 language support in various lessons. School uniforms almost universally have a Sharia-compliant version. RE (or whichever letter-combination it now exists under) is multi-faith. Taking a child out of school for a religious observance has its own code in the register. etc.
I appreciate the point upthread that these are more 'accommodations' than they are 'transformations', but for those unused to such, they can feel like one compromise too far. However, if we're going to see, say muslim girls from observant families, educated at all, then accommodations regarding uniform and diet are necessary.
Then Ontario and most of Canada can thank Rev. Egerton Ryerson, Superintendent of the Wesleyan Methodist Church in Canada and as Education who designed our education system in the 1850's and explicitly rejected the English model.
We don't have school meals provided in elementary schools, students must bring their own either. Been that way forever. High school cafeterias are generally terrible and most students bring their own lunch anyway. Habit.
quote:
I've been called on to give 1-to-1 language support in various lessons.
Ontario does that too, it's part of the job, and nobody bats an eye. Public schools are first-rate Borg Cubes of assimilation, er, blending, er, free-thinking, er, cultural comfortableness. Nothing turns kids into good Canadians who are comfortable with their country like public school. What the teachers don't do, the playground does.
Toronto has an average or slightly above English aptitude and literacy level at the standard Grade 10 mark (it can't get too high, it's so big) but for a board that is so diverse it has nothing to be ashamed of in getting students to the average.
Ryerson wasn't concerned about immigrants, he just didn't want a class-ridden education system, but his system is great for helping immigrants into mainstream Canadian society.
Canada's immigration system has many faults, but not integrating immigrant children is not one of them.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Starve and die until one learns the future host's language and customs.
Sure. Because "starve and die" or "emigrate" are the only options available to anybody who has ever wanted to move to a different country.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Starve and die until one learns the future host's language and customs.
Sure. Because "starve and die" or "emigrate" are the only options available to anybody who has ever wanted to move to a different country.
Hyperbole, but the point remains. Address that and we can talk.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, if we're going to see, say muslim girls from observant families, educated at all, then accommodations regarding uniform and diet are necessary.
See, that's what I'm talking about. Where are the changes being made by the families so that they can fit into their new society? Why is the default position assumed to be society adapting to accommodate them?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Sure. Because "starve and die" or "emigrate" are the only options available to anybody who has ever wanted to move to a different country.
Hyperbole, but the point remains. Address that and we can talk.
Put the point in more rational terms and I might know what it is you want me to address.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, if we're going to see, say muslim girls from observant families, educated at all, then accommodations regarding uniform and diet are necessary.
See, that's what I'm talking about. Where are the changes being made by the families so that they can fit into their new society? Why is the default position assumed to be society adapting to accommodate them?
So coming from a culture that doesn't value the education of girls to a culture that insists that all girls are equally educated alongside boys isn't a change made by the families of immigrants?
You see, I'm thinking that you're banging this drum simply because you don't know what changes immigrant families make. The accommodations they make are invisible, but the accommodations we make are obvious.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
MtM,
Simple, clear terms.
Many immigrants are leaving hardships, it is not a perfectly planned affair. The opportunity is taken as available.
But really, look around you. Plenty of evidence that even after centuries, people cling to their roots. Else old cities would have masses of homogeneity, rather than the variety they do.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
Then Ontario and most of Canada can thank Rev. Egerton Ryerson, Superintendent of the Wesleyan Methodist Church in Canada and as Education who designed our education system in the 1850's and explicitly rejected the English model.
The modern English education system, which is what Doc Tor is talking about, did not exist in the 1850s. Compulsory primary (elementary) schooling was introduced in the 1870s; the school leaving age was raised to 15 only in 1944.
All other things being equal, bilingual children usually do rather well in school (see here, for example). So if you are concerned about inequality in education, Marvin, perhaps you should be complaining about the lack of support for teaching languages in primary schools instead of the help provided to children who don't speak English as their first language. Which is given as well as, not instead of, whatever teachers and support staff are available to the rest of the class.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Simple, clear terms.
Many immigrants are leaving hardships, it is not a perfectly planned affair. The opportunity is taken as available.
That's not really my point. If I was facing hardships such that I had to move to Nepal to improve my lot, then I'd damn well expect to have to change my way of life and cultural expectations to fit those of the Nepalese. After all, surely the way of life and cultural expectations would be part of the better life I'd be looking for.
quote:
But really, look around you. Plenty of evidence that even after centuries, people cling to their roots. Else old cities would have masses of homogeneity, rather than the variety they do.
There's a difference between people clinging to their roots in the place where those roots are, and people digging up their roots, travelling to a completely different place, and trying to put them into the ground there.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
That's not really my point. If I was facing hardships such that I had to move to Nepal to improve my lot, then I'd damn well expect to have to change my way of life and cultural expectations to fit those of the Nepalese. After all, surely the way of life and cultural expectations would be part of the better life I'd be looking for.
My experience is that they would also adapt to you. I mean, for example, you probably wouldn't speak Nepali fluently to begin with, and if they people didn't speak English, they would adapt, say in shops, by accepting your points. In Albania once I bought some tomatoes but had no idea how much I should pay, so I passed him a pen and paper and he wrote a number down.
Just now on an allotment a woman said something to me that I didn't understand. I said that I didn't understand a word, and she used another one. She said something about my new water pump that I didn't understand, so she showed with with her hands what she meant.
In these basic examples, people are adapting to me. That there are many people in Wrocław who don't speak Polish (I mean, at all), means that people working in the city centre speak English or German to them, and offer menus in English and German.
This isn't ideological (well, that I refuse to speak English here is), it's what happens when people share a living space.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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