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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Assimilation: The Borg of Culture
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
And they do change, change hugely, just perhaps not enough to thrill some people. And guess what some of those un-thrilled people will never be thrilled about the immigrants no matter what they do, so where does one draw the line. So Muslim woman Y doesn't wear a face covering when she goes to the bank, because the bank doesn't allow that. What about covering her hair, must she stop that too if she is to please the dominant culture? Certainly some people say she must, because they find it offensive. Shouldn't it offend us all more that some jerks think they have a right to say what another human does with her hair when it is harming no one!
And yet if Ms. Y does not adjust her hair style for the freak who hates covered hair, then she is refusing to adapt, right, and should go back to where ever she came from?
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Simple, clear terms.
Many immigrants are leaving hardships, it is not a perfectly planned affair. The opportunity is taken as available.
That's not really my point. If I was facing hardships such that I had to move to Nepal to improve my lot, then I'd damn well expect to have to change my way of life and cultural expectations to fit those of the Nepalese. After all, surely the way of life and cultural expectations would be part of the better life I'd be looking for.
ISTM, you are viewing this from the perspective of a non-pressured choice.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
[QUOTE]But really, look around you. Plenty of evidence that even after centuries, people cling to their roots. Else old cities would have masses of homogeneity, rather than the variety they do.
There's a difference between people clinging to their roots in the place where those roots are, and people digging up their roots, travelling to a completely different place, and trying to put them into the ground there.
No, none of those people's roots are from where they are, not completely. The idea that we move and change instead of just move seems a relatively recent one. Change occurs over time and what you see as sameness is the inevitability of that change. What you see as trying to transplant roots is what has occured over millennia, you are simply looking through the myopic lens of now instead of the far-sighted perspective of history.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
And they do change, change hugely, just perhaps not enough to thrill some people.
Yes. Because many of those changes will be to adapt to the "invisible culture", those of us who are part of that "invisible culture" won't even know about them. Again, we notice obvious things like language, dress, food, and religious practices. We won't notice the subtler things that we assume "everyone does", so won't be aware when our immigrant neighbors are adapting to those things.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
And they do change, change hugely, just perhaps not enough to thrill some people. And guess what some of those un-thrilled people will never be thrilled about the immigrants no matter what they do, so where does one draw the line. So Muslim woman Y doesn't wear a face covering when she goes to the bank, because the bank doesn't allow that. What about covering her hair, must she stop that too if she is to please the dominant culture? Certainly some people say she must, because they find it offensive. Shouldn't it offend us all more that some jerks think they have a right to say what another human does with her hair when it is harming no one!
And yet if Ms. Y does not adjust her hair style for the freak who hates covered hair, then she is refusing to adapt, right, and should go back to where ever she came from?
Yes, this puzzles me a lot. I can only think it's a fear or dislike of difference itself. Or you could call it a liking for homogeneity.
Otherwise, I can't fathom it. If my neighbours speak Urdu, eat tons of aloo gosht, and wear different clothes to me, so what? I don't understand why they are supposed to want to be like me, no more than I want to be like, say, some posh twat up the road, who wears cravats, drives a Lexus, and votes Conservative.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
If my neighbours speak Urdu, eat tons of aloo gosht, and wear different clothes to me, so what? I don't understand why they are supposed to want to be like me, no more than I want to be like, say, some posh twat up the road, who wears cravats, drives a Lexus, and votes Conservative.
I suppose many people have a memory, or a folk memory, of sharing common values, class or cultural allegiances, with their close neighbours. In today's highly atomised and also hybridised communities that kind of fantasy isn't easy to maintain.
Anyone can go on picnics, cycle to matins, join the WI and and go to the theatre. But if you specifically want to belong to a middle class community where that kind of thing is understood beyond your front door, you have to pay a premium to live in the right kind of place. It's not so easy for working class, indigenous cultures to reconstitute themselves, partly because the jobs those people once did have gone, and working class jobs, cultures and identities seem far more susceptible to fluctuating economic and industrial conditions than middle class ones. And of course, mass immigration impacts most significantly on the working classes.
(I'm thinking of provincial England. London is a special case, and I don't know about the rest of the Anglosphere.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But this homogeneity is a fantasy, isn't it? I grew up on a council estate, but it was full of barking mad people, drunks, druggies, respectable families, thieves, and people who bred dogs. I suppose, if you squinted, and shut out half the estate, there was a homogeneity of sorts. Then up the road there was a middle class bit, full of Rover cars, Tory councillors, and overweight business men. Maybe the first lot wanted to feel as one, in order to keep clear of the second lot!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quetzalcoatl
I used the word 'fantasy' in my first paragraph!
Yes, of course every village would have have its idiot, its scrounger, its gossip, its butcher, baker and candlestick maker - those are types or roles that everyone in the village would have understood. But whether people understand the types and roles that revolve around them today is another matter. The fact that we hide away behind our front doors doesn't help - that's the atomisation I was talking about.
Conspiracy theorists might see the current situation as a perfect outworking of the divide and rule strategy - if people don't know or understand each other, they won't stick together and fight to improve their common interests. There's not much going on in popular culture at the moment to get people from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds to feel united.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I agree that there is today considerable alienation and atomisation, so that possibly, people feel more paranoid and suspicious. There is also the current financial crisis, which probably makes people feel insecure. When people feel like that, they look for the 'alien in their midst', not to welcome them, but to punish them as scapegoats.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The native population/culture owes immigrants nothing. They are in that country at the natives sufferance and can either adapt or f**k off somewhere else.
I don't know if you're Irish, CL, or are just living in Ireland. But interestingly the Irish are - perhaps sadly - rather indebted to many other nations precisely for not sharing your viewpoint. At least eventually! There was, in early times, a great deal of nasty prejudice and discrimination against the Irish (still is at odd times) in places where they've emigrated to and settled.
I say sadly because of course the Irish have often had to become immigrants in other countries in order to find work, send money home to their families etc. Almost identical reasons for why immigrants come to Ireland (hard though it is to believe it at the moment!).
How thoroughly the Irish allowed themselves to assimilate into 'foreign' cultures is arguable. Is there a major city in any place in the Western world that doesn't have a St Patrick's Day Parade; or a (proper) Irish bar, or a GAA club, or several strands of Irish fraternities going on? The assimilation, frankly, is premised mainly on being white, Western and speaking English. In other words, being at least 'the same' enough as the adoptive country so as not to be too much of a shock to the eyes and ears. So we can't entirely congratulate ourselves on our ability to blend with the natives on that score. Accident of birth managed that for us - not us!
Whereas maybe that slavic looking guy who just tiled your bathroom, or that Polish girl who just bagged your groceries, or that hijab-wearing woman who just passed you in the street talking in her native language just aren't 'the same' enough as you, for you to realize how little difference in circumstances there is between one kind of immigrant and another.
Having said that, I do think there must be a respect for the new country from the immigrant; for its history, its customs and of course its native people. And there should be a determination to live peacefully and within the law.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The native population/culture owes immigrants nothing. They are in that country at the natives sufferance and can either adapt or f**k off somewhere else.
Just so you get the point, I'll quote the Westminster version of the Rheims-Douay from our family Bible at you here.
"By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles?" (St. Matthew 7:16)
I was born in London of Irish parents, and my real name is quite obviously Irish. Nethertheless, when our family moved to Ireland in 1970 I spent almost the whole of my school years dealing with ignorant trolls who more or less told me, both verbally and physically, what you have pithily said here.
On my first week of school in January 1971 I was slapped in the face by an Irish speaking kid for the crime of having an English accent.
I learned to keep my mouth shut after that. After Bloody Sunday me and my brother had a horrible time, being rounded on by kids on school for the crime of being perceived to be English.
Around the hunger strikes, much later in 1981 I had to go to the Head Brother of the school we were in because the local troll kids decided that me and my brother were somehow responsible for the death of Bobby Sands et al. Being drop kicked in the back and having two dozen Orcs kicking you in the groin and being punched in the back of the head is not exactly a good grounding in feeling welcome.
Last year, CL's "adapt or f**k off" attitude got a good airing in Kells, Co. Meath.
This is worth quoting at length. I'm sure CL feels proud that the local kids asserted their identity in such a way, in the face of such a threat from a ten year old.
quote:
Parents of a 10-year-old boy claim he has been bullied out of school due to racial taunting over his accent.
The boy was injured and regularly reduced to tears because of bullying on the premises. He has also been subjected to cyber-bullying The family moved from South Africa to Kells, Co Meath, in 2010.
His parents took him out of the school after the board of management failed to act to deal with the incidents outside the school.
Gerry Dalton said he had now taken his son out of St Colmcille’s National School for his own protection.
The school declined to comment on the issue.
Mr Dalton said his son had been targeted by several children since he started in October, mainly because of his South African accent. As well as suffering physical injuries, which were logged in a school accident report, the boy has begun displaying signs of an anxiety disorder, his father said.
In February, a concerned parent contacted Mr Dalton to tell him his son was being brought to tears every day due to bullying over his accent. The situation escalated when the family’s house was pelted by eggs, and a Facebook page — reminiscent of the Phoebe Prince case in the US — was set up to taunt the boy.
St Colmcille’s took legal advice that concluded that to invoke sanctions for incidents outside of school — and specifically cyber-bullying — would be “exceeding the school’s remit”.
Last week the school’s board of management wrote to the family saying that it had decided not to take any action in relation to the cyber-bullying.
The board wrote: “It has been clearly and undeniably confirmed that the cyber-activity, related to Facebook, and the allegations or indications of bullying by a defined number of children did not take place during school hours.
“It is therefore not within the remit of the board of management to apply consequences. This is a civil matter for the law enforcement authorities to act upon as they deem appropriate.”
The letter states that both the principal and the board “readily condemn” any bullying behaviour outside the school and that the pupils implicated, and their parents, have been told their behaviour should cease and never be repeated. The board said the school would try and ensure the boy was not bullied while in school.
Gardaí are aware of the case, but cannot take action as the alleged bullies are under 12 and below the age of criminal responsibility.
The National Education Welfare Board said it was aware of the case and was advising the family.
Mr Dalton said he was shocked at the situation his family has found itself in, as they had moved from South Africa for a quiet, peaceful life. “At no stage has anyone enquired as to the wellbeing of our son. He is already trying to modify his accent around home, when we talked to him about it, he said he is trying to get rid of his South African accent to fit in more at school.”
Mr Dalton said it was regrettable the Facebook page was being seen “in isolation” and not as part of the ongoing bullying against his son.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I went on a professional visit to a Muslim family this week, a family of punjabi origin.
It seemed a fairly traditional family in that both dad, mum and sister-in-law wore traditional dress (and as it turned out both couples had 1st cousin marriages).
My colleague and I took our shoes off to enter the house, and were careful to think about the role of the family as a whole in some kinds of decisions etc.
On the other hand, it seemed that there was no problem accepting services from female healthcare professionals for their son, and we were treated with hospitality and respect.
I do think the point about invisible adaptations is very well made.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I do think there must be a respect for the new country from the immigrant; for its history, its customs and of course its native people. And there should be a determination to live peacefully and within the law.
Living peacefully and within the law is requirement for visitors - such as those working in a foreign country on short-term contract.
Seems to me that assimilation is about that extra degree of belonging that should accompany a permanent move.
Things like:
- aiming to become fluent in the language (rather than being satisfied to get by in the possibly narrow range of situations encountered at work)
- being more interested in the politics, sport, and culture of the new country than of the old
- arguing for the new country to follow those policies that will benefit itself, rather than do things in the old country's way or operate an immigration policy for the benefit of old-country people
- watching new-country TV and reading new-country newspapers
- having at least one leisure interest outside the home which involves mixing with the indigenes
- making some effort to follow the obvious social customs (queuing, adapting to the pace of life, etc)
Easy to say that immigrants "should" do these things. Not sure how far that's a moral should (in the sense that this is being polite and respectful to the people of the new country) and how far it's a prudential should (if you want be accepted then this is a way that will increase the chances of achieving that goal).
Sadly, it's always possible that the people of the new country will reject the immigrants despite their best efforts at assimilation.
However, where there are tensions between immigrants and indigenes, it would be simplistic and biased to assume that the fault is always on one side or the other. Racism and other forms of xenophobia can be pretty unpleasant. Misunderstandings can occur, related to the sort of hidden cultural assumptions that cliffdweller described so well above. But it's also possible that perhaps there are some sorts of immigrants that a country is better off without.
Cultures vary in the strength of their work ethic, and their ability to channel the energy of their young males into positive directions. Individuals may be better or worse in these respects than the average for their culture. But there are people in this world who really are the neighbours from hell...
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Russ: quote:
- being more interested in the politics, sport, and culture of the new country than of the old...
Ah, Lord Tebbit's famous cricket test! What about indigenous people, are they allowed to fail it? I ask as an English person who has absolutely no interest in whether England wins the World Cup and supports Scotland in the Six Nations Rugby.
In cultural matters, I will be taking part in a production of Verdi's Nabucco (Italian) in the not too distant future and have just finished reading a book written by an American. My favourite boardgame is German and I have a typical English diet which includes curries, stir-fries, pasta and croissants.
Bigots don't just pick on immigrants or people with a different skin colour. My daughter has been told to 'go home', an insult which fortunately sailed right over her head because she was born in this city (although neither of us were, so her accent is not quite the same as everyone else's) and has lived all her life here. If a white British child of English-speaking parents is treated like this at a fairly good suburban school, I dread to think what children of non-white immigrants in huge struggling inner-city schools have to put up with.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
The 'go home' thing is bizarre.
A lot of the people they're inviting to go home were, in fact, born here and are as English as someone who wears Union Jack pants and carries a copy of the Times into work. They might not have buttered crumpets, play croquet and do a range of other things, but then again, nor do most of the rest of the population.
And for the people who weren't born here, then what does the phrase mean? Most of the people saying it, were they to go home, would end up living in a part of the country they don't like or have any real connection with and, even if they are already home, why the bloody buggering heck should others have to leave when they've decided that they want to build a life for themselves somewhere else?
I find that idiot's clarion call vastly depressing.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Same here. It's also completely at odds with the aforementioned Lord Tebbit's advice to the unemployed to 'get on yer bike' and look for work in other parts of the country.
If anyone can explain to me how I can achieve the contradictory aims of staying where I am (so as not to offend the sensibilities of the indigenes anywhere else) and moving to where the work is (so as not to be a Burden on the State), I would be fascinated to learn.
Incidentally, I am myself a descendent of immigrants; my great-grandfather was Irish. Most of the other side of the family were Welsh, judging by the surnames. The rest is probably Viking or Danish.
All immigrants except perhaps for the Welsh, who were evicted from the rest of the country by those Angles and Saxons whose descendents are now kicking up such a fuss about (other) migrants.
[ 06. June 2013, 09:37: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Russ, I probably agree with most of what you've written to some degree. I didn't particularly want to make a manifesto of what constituted a 'good' immigrant - but you've basically covered it, I suppose.
And it never really struck me how important are some of the points you're making till I spoke with an Englishman who had made France his home. His idea of adapting to local custom was buying his wine from the travelling wine-seller. Apart from that he stoutly maintained his 'Englishness' by refusing to learn the language or getting involved with the locals, whom he admitted he disliked. He had moved to France for the weather, he said, not the people or the culture! As he belonged to a little ex-pat clique of English people, this was made fairly easy.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
If anyone can explain to me how I can achieve the contradictory aims of staying where I am (so as not to offend the sensibilities of the indigenes anywhere else) and moving to where the work is (so as not to be a Burden on the State), I would be fascinated to learn.
Actually, I think the government should do more to encourage British people to work and study abroad. It seems strange always to focus on the benefits of immigration without also promoting the benefits of emigration. Where are the politicians to promote foreign language learning and the entrepreneurial spirit among the indigenous population? I imagine that there are lots of possibilities in Eastern Europe for British people who've spent a few years investigating, preparing and readying themselves to take a risk.
Emigration for working age people seems to have become a mostly middle class concept in Britain now. That didn't use to be the case, did it? Working class people were willing to move in order to find work.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
If immigrants are expected to transform themselves into perfect little Miss Marples and Coronel Blimps, or whatever the local equivalent is, then there really isn't any benefit to the host country from immigration, except a few more bodies. Wouldn't it be easier to just pay a baby bonus?
Immigrants bring new ideas, cultures, foods, fashions, knowledge, crafts, skills, religions, assumptions, beliefs, you name it. They bring family, professional, cultural and commercial connections to the entire world. I live in a very diverse neighbourhood in a very diverse city (Blimps and Marples mostly keep to the West Side), and it's really not that difficult. Immigrant families are often quite conservative and very focused on providing a good future for their children. They're working hard and saving up for college, or a bigger house, or a new car. Kind of like most everyone else.
The idea that somehow reading the right newspapers and watching the correct sports and so forth is the key to civic harmony is rooted in a longing for uniformity, perfection and stability. Such things have never existed in any human community. No society lacks misfits. Look at the thread next door about unusual behaviours in church.
When people screw up, they screw up. Anyone can screw up from habit, ignorance, neglect, accident, or just a bad day. And yet it seems to be generally assumed by some that when immigrants screw up, it's because they haven't made a sufficient effort to fit in. That's really unfair to people who may have done or endured extraordinary things to get to where they are, things that most of us would never have the guts to do.
I had a colleague who came to Canada as a refugee from Hungary. When she left in 1956, she could not have foreseen future events, and she believed that she would never see or communicate with her parents every again; and yet her parents were the ones pushing her to get out. She felt terrible because she was abandoning them in an uncertain and dangerous situation. They felt that communism was so bad that it was worth losing their daughter forever so that she could live in a free country. That's just one immigrant's story.
So how about cutting us some slack? (I say "us" because I've immigrated to and from three different countries and I probably annoyed a lot of people in a lot of different places. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Ah, Lord Tebbit's famous cricket test! What about indigenous people, are they allowed to fail it? I ask as an English person who has absolutely no interest in whether England wins the World Cup
IIRC, the Tebbit test was that immigrants to England from cricket-playing countries should be expected to support England in cricket matches against their nation of birth.
I think that's asking a little too much. He should perhaps have said support England against any team other than that of their birth nation, recognising that most well-assimilated immigrants will feel a tie to both their old and new countries.
My point was slightly different. Whilst an immigrant to England is free to be totally bored by cricket (as some English people are), if they're not interested in any English sport but a keen follower of some sport from their former country, then that's an indication that they're not assimilated.
In which case, whilst they should be treated with the courtesy due to a visitor, any claim of equal status with the indigenes is undermined.
No-one's saying that migration is a bad thing as such. Just that if you want to be counted one of the ducks, you have to quack.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
If immigrants are expected to transform themselves into perfect little Miss Marples and Coronel Blimps, or whatever the local equivalent is, then there really isn't any benefit to the host country from immigration, except a few more bodies. Wouldn't it be easier to just pay a baby bonus?
Immigrants bring new ideas, cultures, foods, fashions, knowledge, crafts, skills, religions, assumptions, beliefs, you name it. They bring family, professional, cultural and commercial connections to the entire world.
Well, maybe the problem, at least here in the UK, is that governments never put it in these terms until the immigrants are already here and settled! Politicians usually focus on the labour shortage; rarely do they suggest from the very beginning that redefining the culture is one of their key goals. This is somewhat sneaky of them....
(I speak as the daughter and granddaughter of immigrants, although they arrived as British subjects.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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