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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Consent
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I think a difficulty can be when people are out and get drunk, and a drunk man has sex with a drunk woman, because she is acting in a sexual way towards him. The man is at fault - regardless of the fact he was drunk, he chose to get drunk and is responsible for his actions.
I agree with your post but I would clarify that if a drunk woman gives consent, even though she may regret it later and may not be making the best choices, it's definitely not rape. Women are responsible for their behavior as well if they choose to get drunk. If the drunk woman is acting in a sexual manner but denies consent, or, is unable to speak, it is rape.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
A female who wears revealing clothing , behaves provocatively prior to getting unconscious on alcohol/drugs and then ends up in the company of strangers is not taking proper good care of her personal property, (in this instance her body), IMHO.
If anyone here thinks I'm the rapist's friend then read my comments upthread.
Of course you're the rapist's friend. You've helpfully compiled a list of legitimate targets for serial rapists. All he has to do is look for a woman who's been drinking, or wears revealing clothing, or any of the several dozen other items on the Legitimate Victim's List of Do's and Don'ts™ and he's got his victim picked out. He knows all it will take is one police detective, prosecutor, or juror who buys into your whole "she was asking for it/deserved it/got what was coming/etc." position and while he may see the inside of a courtroom he'll probably never see the inside of a cell.
Well said. Of course, this kind of stuff about women getting drunk or dressing 'provocatively' justifies rape.
In the past, (I am talking about the UK), it was used as a kind of smokescreen for 'she was asking for it', and the legal defence in rape trials would try to blacken the name of the female victim.
I think this has been clarified a lot in the UK, and basically, the victim's behaviour is irrelevant to the legal charge of rape.
Of course, it may still unconsciously influence police, lawyers, jurors, and so on, but a good prosecution barrister will point this out.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I interpreted Rolyn's post as being about women keeping themselves safe - looking after themselves. To me, it makes sense, if I want to keep myself safe, not to go out with strangers, act sexually and get totally drunk with them - and if I had a daughter, to give her guidance about such things.
This is what I meant in my previous post. That it's also important for people to take care in the situations they get into - it's not about assigning blame to the victim or excusing the behaviour of rapists, but just acting prudently to look after oneself, and minimise risk.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
OK, but this thread is about consent. What relevance does a woman's behaviour have to this? I just can't see any. If she is naked, drunk, and dancing around, that doesn't change the requirement to have consent, in order to have sex with her. You don't get to say, 'oh her behaviour was an implicit consent'. It's not.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
OK, but this thread is about consent. What relevance does a woman's behaviour have to this? I just can't see any. If she is naked, drunk, and dancing around, that doesn't change the requirement to have consent, in order to have sex with her. You don't get to say, 'oh her behaviour was an implicit consent'. It's not.
Well, it's true I don't think Rolyn was talking about consent in that comment, so that wasn't directly about the original question. But people were taking his comment to mean that a woman was giving consent, and I didn't interpret it that way, so that is why I posted. And also because I don't understand why people think it's so wrong to advise women to take care in such situations - people seem to think that this excuses rapist's behaviour and I don't understand that logic. Often conversations about consent go on to say that it's wrong to advise a woman to take care.
However, as far as I understand, often, in court cases, it is the behaviour that is the issue with regard to consent. The woman hasn't said yes or no, but sexual behaviour is taken to mean consent, and then the woman says afterwards that she hadn't wanted it. It is difficult for a court to judge in those situations.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, there are grey areas. But one of the traditional ways in which rapists have got off is to blame the woman in some way. Therefore, I am always suspicious, in a discussion of rape, when people start saying 'women have to be careful'. OK, we should all be careful, but a woman being careless does not turn rape into non-rape.
This is one reason that the definition of consent in relation to drunkenness was clarified in English law. A woman doesn't have to be unconscious to be seen as not giving consent.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
The woman hasn't said yes or no, but sexual behaviour is taken to mean consent, and then the woman says afterwards that she hadn't wanted it. It is difficult for a court to judge in those situations.
Yes, this is where there are grey areas. I think that defining rape has to include state of mind. If a woman is behaving in a sexual manner towards another, and by that I mean actively coming on to another, her state of mind may very well be that she is consenting to further activity. AFAIK, sexual activity doesn't usually include, "may I, my lady?" So intent, consent and state of mind are all very important things. Hard to prove in court and very messy.
What I actually see as the problem is society's view, in general, that women should not behave in a manner that portrays her as a sexual being. It seems that a common argument that goes to consent is a women's dress, and behavior, such as dancing. As if a woman who would choose to portray herself as being sexual automatically means that she would consent to any sexual behavior. Stupid.
The only behavior that should matter in proving state of mind or consent is the behavior specifically between the two people involved. That is, sexual activity, explicit conversation and very obvious sexual behavior. In no way should that ever include how a woman is dressed or how she dances or what she consumes.
And yes, I do think that if a woman says no, after going quite far in her sexual activity, it's still no. And consent ends. However, this is very difficult, if not impossible to prove.
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
What ever happened to "do ya wanna?" Is that really so hard to ask? Hell, my husband says it all the time.
As far as wanting to stop before sex, yeah, been there, done that, that ex can burn in hell. You're right on that at least: you don't even report that shit because of the attitudes on this thread. You're forgetting this is about real people, not theoretical sub-human "sluts".
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, these attitudes die hard, as we can see here. Male sexuality is seen by some people as this overwhelming force, and if a woman should titillate it by her demeanour and behaviour, then she cannot then retract, as the man is now a raging bull, who must be satisfied.
Yet this attitude is changing. As I keep saying, in England, defence barristers now no longer routinely seek to trash a female victim, in order to prove that she was asking for it. If her barrister can show that she said no, it doesn't matter if previously she was asking for it.
Of course, as others have said, this is very difficult to demonstrate, and the vast majority of rapes never make it to court.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by fineline:
quote:
if I had a daughter, I would advise her to take steps to keep safe. Probably more with a daughter than a son, because women tend to be more vulnerable, because of the way society is.
Locally, young men seem more vulnerable to casual alcohol-fuelled aggression and violence; I'd advise my son to avoid getting drunk just as much as I'd advise my daughter. I'd want him to be sober enough to anticipate trouble and avoid it.
BUT if a young man was drunk, and ended up in casualty because another drunk had taken a dislike to him/ thought he was looking at him funny / thought he was eyeing up his girlfriend / objected to his choice of football team/ whatever, it wouldn't be any the less assault just because the victim hadn't been sober.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, the analogy I use, is if I wander into a tough area of London late at night, and get mugged, is the crime of the mugger lessened because of my stupidity? Would his barrister stand up, and say to the jury, well, you can't really blame my client, (the mugger), because the victim was stupid enough to go into a dangerous area? Now that would be bizarre.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
That it's also important for people to take care in the situations they get into - it's not about assigning blame to the victim or excusing the behaviour of rapists, but just acting prudently to look after oneself, and minimise risk.
This is pretty much what I've being trying to say , albeit badly.
Having read other posts I now acknowledge my comments have been naive . I didn't realise that sex offenders deliberately went out their way to target female revellers who had become incapacitated through the use of too much alcohol.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AmyBo:
What ever happened to "do ya wanna?" Is that really so hard to ask? Hell, my husband says it all the time.
As far as wanting to stop before sex, yeah, been there, done that, that ex can burn in hell. You're right on that at least: you don't even report that shit because of the attitudes on this thread. You're forgetting this is about real people, not theoretical sub-human "sluts".
Yea, my husband isn't subtle either. I think that's more about "should I get all riled up or are you too tired/have a headache/not in the mood"? From what I can remember, first time sex with someone is a little more subtle and a little more seductive. And there's nothing wrong with that.
I've been there done that as well. I think it's not reported because its not provable. Even if these attitudes were to wither and die it would still be hard to prove. And it needs to be proven, because, like it or not, there are women who will get drunk, fully consent to sex, regret it and then say it was rape. And again, I think that problem also goes back to societal views on female sexuality. Women will regret their sexual exploits because we have been conditioned to do so. Men, not so much.
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
What happens in the hypothetical, they both wake up naked, in bed, the next morning, and neither of them can remember giving consent, yet there is clear visible evidence that they had some form of sexual contact? How about if only one of them cannot remember giving consent? While I am totally on the side of a woman can act and dress however she wants, it's no excuse for rape, what happens if she assumes he took advantage/rape, and all that is left is second-hand witness testimony (she had been flirting with him all night and took him back to her place)?
Sadly, having been at university, I know plenty of people who have no recollection of what happened the previous night. Some of them woke up in beds with people they didn't recognise the next morning and tacitly assumed they had consented, but it strikes me as a horrible grey area.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
That it's also important for people to take care in the situations they get into - it's not about assigning blame to the victim or excusing the behaviour of rapists, but just acting prudently to look after oneself, and minimise risk.
This is pretty much what I've being trying to say , albeit badly.
Having read other posts I now acknowledge my comments have been naive . I didn't realise that sex offenders deliberately went out their way to target female revellers who had become incapacitated through the use of too much alcohol.
Are you serious? Admittedly, I grew up in a tough area of Manchester, but I knew guys who did exactly that, and weren't above plying girls with drink, in the hope of incapacitating them. I doubt if they saw it as rape. But it is.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
What happens in the hypothetical, they both wake up naked, in bed, the next morning, and neither of them can remember giving consent, yet there is clear visible evidence that they had some form of sexual contact? How about if only one of them cannot remember giving consent? While I am totally on the side of a woman can act and dress however she wants, it's no excuse for rape, what happens if she assumes he took advantage/rape, and all that is left is second-hand witness testimony (she had been flirting with him all night and took him back to her place)?
Sadly, having been at university, I know plenty of people who have no recollection of what happened the previous night. Some of them woke up in beds with people they didn't recognise the next morning and tacitly assumed they had consented, but it strikes me as a horrible grey area.
I addressed this up thread somewhere. This happened to a young friend of mine recently. I don't believe that's rape. I guess it could have been and the woman does not remember refusing. However, from what I understand about black outs (I rarely blacked out) I think she would remember if it was a highly negatively charged experience. My friend does not consider it rape and assumes that she gave consent. Based on what she knows of herself. She may regret it and take better care next time, but she takes responsibility for herself.
Regardless, very, very hard to prove and IMO, not worth fighting. Let it go and move on.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I doubt if the CPS (in England) would take up a case like that. There is little hope of a prosecution. I think there has to be more than just a possibility that I didn't consent, but an actual memory or a feeling, or physical evidence, e.g. bruising, and so on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Sadly, in the recent cases of children being groomed and abused, both the caring services and the defence lawyers assumed consent and attacked the girl's histories, so it may not be routine, but it still happens.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Sadly, in the recent cases of children being groomed and abused, both the caring services and the defence lawyers assumed consent and attacked the girl's histories, so it may not be routine, but it still happens.
Yes, I think misogyny of this kind is still alive and well. Some of the stories from those cases were staggering, as if care homes had become places where young girls could be picked up for easy sex.
But the old-fashioned approach of 'well, she was asking for it' is being rolled back in the legal profession, amongst police and so on. Still a long way to go though.
But I think the law on consent has become more precise, and more useful to women. For example, the police now have a standard question for suspects: what steps did you take to ascertain consent? And just mumbling, well, she didn't say no, may not be good enough.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
... there are women who will get drunk, fully consent to sex, regret it and then say it was rape. ...
And that would be the rapist's side of the story.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
... there are women who will get drunk, fully consent to sex, regret it and then say it was rape. ...
And that would be the rapist's side of the story.
So, are you saying that no woman would ever lie?
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Rape is vastly under-reported. Why? Because a person who makes an accusation of rape will be subjected to a gauntlet of misery, starting with medical exams and ending with character assassination in court. That hardly seems the easiest way to deal with the embarrassment of a regrettable sexual encounter. OTOH, the argument that women get drunk, have sex, and then lie about rape is exactly what a predator who has spiked someone's drink would say. Are you saying rapists always tell the truth?
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Rape is vastly under-reported. Why? Because a person who makes an accusation of rape will be subjected to a gauntlet of misery, starting with medical exams and ending with character assassination in court. That hardly seems the easiest way to deal with the embarrassment of a regrettable sexual encounter. OTOH, the argument that women get drunk, have sex, and then lie about rape is exactly what a predator who has spiked someone's drink would say. Are you saying rapists always tell the truth?
Absolutely not. Obviously. I agree rape is under reported. I also think that the majority of rape allegations are true. But some men are innocent who are accused and there needs to be trial. For all kinds of messed up reasons. That's all I'm saying. The justice system can't change it's "innocent before proven guilty" stance just because its a rape charge.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Would his barrister stand up, and say to the jury, well, you can't really blame my client, (the mugger), because the victim was stupid enough to go into a dangerous area? Now that would be bizarre.
Barristers do, in fact, stand up and plead in mitigation that this was a one-off offense, that my client is usually of good character but was tempted by the display of wealth that was far greater than anything he usually sees, that he was desperate for money to feed his thirteen starving children and dog, and that he wouldn't have committed the crime if the victim hadn't put temptation in his path.
Maybe it even lessens his sentence sometimes.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Are you serious? Admittedly, I grew up in a tough area of Manchester, but I knew guys who did exactly that, and weren't above plying girls with drink, in the hope of incapacitating them. I doubt if they saw it as rape. But it is.
I am serious . A tough area in Manchester must, I imagine, be a very different place to a rural spot dropped off the edge of Dartmoor.
Having read Antisocial Alto's link on 'Predators', (a survey carried out in the US re date rape etc.), I discover this is a massively cultural thing . Without wanting to lapse into total despair, it looks to me as if the war on rape is one with a victory about as likely as the war on drugs.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Are you serious? Admittedly, I grew up in a tough area of Manchester, but I knew guys who did exactly that, and weren't above plying girls with drink, in the hope of incapacitating them. I doubt if they saw it as rape. But it is.
I am serious . A tough area in Manchester must, I imagine, be a very different place to a rural spot dropped off the edge of Dartmoor.
Why? No men living in rural Dartmoor would ever think of getting a girl drunk in hopes of getting inside her pants when she's incapacitated? Really?
[ 16. June 2013, 20:16: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Are you serious? Admittedly, I grew up in a tough area of Manchester, but I knew guys who did exactly that, and weren't above plying girls with drink, in the hope of incapacitating them. I doubt if they saw it as rape. But it is.
I am serious . A tough area in Manchester must, I imagine, be a very different place to a rural spot dropped off the edge of Dartmoor.
Why? No men living in rural Dartmoor would ever think of getting a girl drunk in hopes of getting inside her pants when she's incapacitated? Really?
Hold on. I don't think it's that prevalent either. Are we talking about incapacitated as in passed out or incapacitated as in lowering someone's inhibitions? I have a hard time believing the world is overrun with men running around trying to date rape women. Let's not smear the gender by saying it's so.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Would his barrister stand up, and say to the jury, well, you can't really blame my client, (the mugger), because the victim was stupid enough to go into a dangerous area? Now that would be bizarre.
Barristers do, in fact, stand up and plead in mitigation that this was a one-off offense, that my client is usually of good character but was tempted by the display of wealth that was far greater than anything he usually sees, that he was desperate for money to feed his thirteen starving children and dog, and that he wouldn't have committed the crime if the victim hadn't put temptation in his path.
Maybe it even lessens his sentence sometimes.
Come on. Tempted to crime to relieve suffering of loved ones is not in any way the same thing as feeling entitled to crime because of someone's stupidity.
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Are you serious? Admittedly, I grew up in a tough area of Manchester, but I knew guys who did exactly that, and weren't above plying girls with drink, in the hope of incapacitating them. I doubt if they saw it as rape. But it is.
I am serious . A tough area in Manchester must, I imagine, be a very different place to a rural spot dropped off the edge of Dartmoor.
Why? No men living in rural Dartmoor would ever think of getting a girl drunk in hopes of getting inside her pants when she's incapacitated? Really?
Hold on. I don't think it's that prevalent either. Are we talking about incapacitated as in passed out or incapacitated as in lowering someone's inhibitions? I have a hard time believing the world is overrun with men running around trying to date rape women. Let's not smear the gender by saying it's so.
Really? I rather thought that was about half of the point of most frat parties. And yes, I have heard that said by frat boys.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
No one said anything about "overrun." Rolyn quite stridently implied that sort of thing would never happen in rural areas, only in nasty inner-city neighborhoods such as quetzalcoatl's in Manchester.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Well, I've been to many frat parties and have two sons in college. Frat boys like to talk big, but the large majority are human and don't date rape. "Get laid", yea, but not without consent.
Of course, date rape happens, far more than it should. But I still feel like we are painting the gender a little harshly and that's not a good message to our boys and men.
Its entirely possible to live in a rural town and actually not know any date rapers.
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No one said anything about "overrun." Rolyn quite stridently implied that sort of thing would never happen in rural areas, only in nasty inner-city neighborhoods such as quetzalcoatl's in Manchester.
Which to me (a former member of the Young Farmers Club, a former student at Agricultural College, born and bred in rural England) suggests that Rolyn has never been a young woman living in the British countryside. Most of the young men that I trained with, worked with, danced with, went out with, spent time with, were decent people. Even when they'd had a drink or ten they wouldn't want to hurt, insult or assault a woman. But that's most of them and to suggest that there weren't plenty of young men only too pleased to ply a woman with alcohol until she was too drunk to offer informed consent is ridiculous.
It's not about country vs. town, it's about human beings.
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But I think the law on consent has become more precise, and more useful to women. For example, the police now have a standard question for suspects: what steps did you take to ascertain consent? And just mumbling, well, she didn't say no, may not be good enough.
As it shouldn't be.
Hypothetical example-- well, more or less,I am pulling it from the film Bully which is supposed to be based on real-life events: A teenaged boy and girl are having sex and both are enjoying it. Midway the boy tries to maneuver her into a position she doesn't like. She sighs and said she hates it that way. He is physically much stronger than her so he simply hold her still and carries on. She struggles, calls him a variety of names and shouts "I SAID I DON'T LIKE THAT!" at him. He ignores her and finishes. She kicks him out of bed afterward and angrily shouts at him, calls him an asshole, etc.
So, I've shared before that I grew up somewhat of a tomboy, and thus guys would say some of the most amazing shit in front of me because they just forgot I wasn't one of them. Based on said shit, I can say with a reasonable amount of confidence that because:
1. The girl was having sex with him already;
2. She was merely pissed off afterwards, rather than traumatized or terror stricken;
3. [This is the part that gets me] "she didn't actually say no!"
... some of the guys I knew would say that this was probably not rape, but just some weird miscommunication.
And I'm not talking about raving psychos, I am talking about decent guys who would never in their lives dream of man-handling a girl in the described fashion. And that's what troubles me-- not the degenerate behavior of degenerate people (of either sex) but the fact that still, in the age of information, so many young guys out there still aren't quite sure what constitutes rape.
Blog post from a teacher who took on her classroom half full of baffled boys about the issue.
So, while we are out there sending girls to Tai Kwan Do classes and teaching them how to know a safe city street from a dodgy one and empowering them to say 'no', the education we are giving boys about consensual sex often boils down to "wear a condom, don't get her in trouble" and "If she says 'no", stop."
One of many disturbing studies done about high school sexual assault beliefs. In a nutshell, there are still boy AND girls out there who believe if a boy buys a girl dinner, she's consented to sex. That's what we are up against.
I think we need to go much deeper with young men. We need to completely replace "proceed until you hear 'no'" with 'The Enthusiastic Yes." (and idiots like Patty Stanger and other dating gurus need to stop telling men that asking for permission along the way makes them look wimpy.)We need to tell young men that when their sixth grade teacher has sex with them, this is not them "getting lucky" but someone abusing the trust and responsibility given them, and that sex is not just something you take, but something you give.
[ 16. June 2013, 22:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, I've been to many frat parties and have two sons in college. Frat boys like to talk big, but the large majority are human and don't date rape. "Get laid", yea, but not without consent. ..
And frat boys would never lie, and would never consider the absence of a "no" from an incapacitated person to be an invitation to 'get laid'. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
We can play these games forever, but I'm bored now. Bored with debating whether a woman's body is property, like a wallet left on the sidewalk, or whether women are just lying sluts.
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
As I've been reading this, I've been remembering a story from my teens, told by a fellow pupil. She had been out on a double date with her best friend, and had been in the back seat of a car with the boy brought for her, and her friend and her close boyfriend in the front. The car did not have rear doors. The couple in the front started to have sex, enthusiastically. She wanted to get out, but couldn't. Her date suggested they should also have sex. She didn't want to. But she ended up doing it, losing her virginity to someone she didn't even like because everyone else in the car thought she ought to.
Was that rape? She certainly didn't give enthusiastic consent. (I don't know what happened to the "friendship".
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Don't know if it would be rape legally, but that is definitely seven kinds of fucked-up, less than consensual, and I hope she found much better friends down the line.
So that lead to a good question-- is there non-consensual sex that is not rape? As in-- he/ she wouldn't stop bugging me so I gave in, I figured if I didn't let him/ her they'd keep trying all night and I really want to sleep, he/ she said they would dump me if I didn't, etc.)
And is it possible to acknowledge that there is such a thing as non-consensual sex, (or, reluctant consensual sex. that it is bad sex and should not happen, but not designate it as rape?
(These are only questions-- Of course I think best practice is 'if there is any question, don't do it,' and anyone who continues if there is a question is asking for trouble, whether legal or relational.)_
[ 16. June 2013, 22:41: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, I've been to many frat parties and have two sons in college. Frat boys like to talk big, but the large majority are human and don't date rape. "Get laid", yea, but not without consent.
"Get a few drinks in her and she'll be an easy lay" is fairly common - relying on the alcohol to merely lower her inhibitions. It probably isn't exactly rape, but it's not the moral high ground either.
"Get her drunk to incapacity, then you can do what you like to her body" is less common, but not nearly infrequent enough to be called "rare".
It is rape, but most of the perpetrators think they're exactly the same as the first category above, because "she didn't say no".
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Was that rape? She certainly didn't give enthusiastic consent. (I don't know what happened to the "friendship".
It was wrong, no matter the label. There should never be any pressure to have sex. If it is not mutual, it should not happen.
X-post with KA who said it better.
[ 16. June 2013, 22:45: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
So that lead to a good question-- is there non-consensual sex that is not rape?
Well, no, but reluctant sex isn't the same as non-consensual sex. Sex you don't want to have, but have anyway, because he bought you dinner and you feel like you owe him, isn't rape. Sex that you don't want to have, but do anyway, because your boyfriend wants it and you think he'll dump you otherwise, isn't rape.
Because you have consented. Is boyfriend a scumbag for putting you under pressure to have sex you weren't comfortable with? Yes, absolutely. But he's not a criminal.
"Have sex with me or I'll dump you" is a pretty shitty way to behave, but it's not rape.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, I've been to many frat parties and have two sons in college. Frat boys like to talk big, but the large majority are human and don't date rape. "Get laid", yea, but not without consent. ..
And frat boys would never lie, and would never consider the absence of a "no" from an incapacitated person to be an invitation to 'get laid'.
We can play these games forever, but I'm bored now. Bored with debating whether a woman's body is property, like a wallet left on the sidewalk, or whether women are just lying sluts.
The fact is, most rapes (outside of jail) occur between a man and a woman, and the vast majority of those are a man raping a woman. in order to discuss that, we have to discuss the kind of things that make it possible for a man to give himself permission to rape a woman-- and the sad fact is, there are many such tools available in our culture. it is possible to have that discussion-- what kind of tools does our culture gives men that make it easier to excuse/ get away with rape-- without saying "all men are rapists."
Indeed, I enter this conversation confident that the overwhelming majority of men I know are just as concerned about the problem as any woman I know, and welcome advice/ insight/ examples that will help them understand.
Consider the teenage boys in the blog I linked post above. They are not even sure about what rape is. How does it help them to cut off discussion with, "People who talk about what some men do to women are condemning all men" help them?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Don't know if it would be rape legally, but that is definitely seven kinds of fucked-up, less than consensual, and I hope she found much better friends down the line.
So that lead to a good question-- is there non-consensual sex that is not rape? As in-- he/ she wouldn't stop bugging me so I gave in, I figured if I didn't let him/ her they'd keep trying all night and I really want to sleep, he/ she said they would dump me if I didn't, etc.)
And is it possible to acknowledge that there is such a thing as non-consensual sex, (or, reluctant consensual sex. that it is bad sex and should not happen, but not designate it as rape?
(These are only questions-- Of course I think best practice is 'if there is any question, don't do it,' and anyone who continues if there is a question is asking for trouble, whether legal or relational.)_
I think lawyers/barristers sometimes try to use a technical mens rea argument, that the suspect had no criminal intent. This often seems to boil down to an 'honest mistake', although it's quite difficult to think of situations where this might happen, except possibly where the man is himself totally drunk, and unaware of what's happening; also a man who is in a psychotic state, or very mentally retarded. But in some countries recklessness is included within mens rea, I think.
But in practice it seems to be a rare defence; but I know some lawyers do object to the definition of rape as sex without consent, since this leaves out the man's intention to have sex under duress.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, I've been to many frat parties and have two sons in college. Frat boys like to talk big, but the large majority are human and don't date rape. "Get laid", yea, but not without consent. ..
And frat boys would never lie, and would never consider the absence of a "no" from an incapacitated person to be an invitation to 'get laid'.
We can play these games forever, but I'm bored now. Bored with debating whether a woman's body is property, like a wallet left on the sidewalk, or whether women are just lying sluts.
If you're bored, go read my other posts. What makes these discussions ridiculous are extremists.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Consider the teenage boys in the blog I linked post above. They are not even sure about what rape is. How does it help them to cut off discussion with, "People who talk about what some men do to women are condemning all men" help them?
I didn't feel like we were starting to talk about "some men", but more than some. That's like saying young men are a liability like someone said upthread. I don't see how painting with a large brush helps our young men to make better decisions. I don't see how I was cutting off discussion either.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Well, I've been to many frat parties and have two sons in college. Frat boys like to talk big, but the large majority are human and don't date rape. "Get laid", yea, but not without consent.
"Get a few drinks in her and she'll be an easy lay" is fairly common - relying on the alcohol to merely lower her inhibitions. It probably isn't exactly rape, but it's not the moral high ground either.
"Get her drunk to incapacity, then you can do what you like to her body" is less common, but not nearly infrequent enough to be called "rare".
It is rape, but most of the perpetrators think they're exactly the same as the first category above, because "she didn't say no".
Well, I agree. I never said it was rare. I personally think that men or boys that think that having sex with a completely incapacitated person is a pretty sick individual. And maybe I'm an optimist but most males are not that sick.
I think a lot of boys or men who think that another may be innocent because "she didn't say no" is not so much an indication that they would do the same, but a fear that they could also misread signals and get into similar trouble. I'm pretty sure, unconscious is a pretty good in indication of non consent.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
For some reason I am reminded of the Yale fraternity pledges who were marched past a sorority chanting, "No means Yes and Yes means Anal."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
For some reason I am reminded of the Yale fraternity pledges who were marched past a sorority chanting, "No means Yes and Yes means Anal."
WOW. it was banned thankfully.
Ok, I never joined a sorority just went to frat parties. But I was with friends and I never had a bad experience at a frat party and I put myself in a lot of compromising positions. Maybe my experience is only my own and there are more dangers out there than I think. However. I think the simple fact that this was banned by the university is proof of what I'm trying to say. It's not mainstream behavior to have this kind of attitude.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think the simple fact that this was banned by the university is proof of what I'm trying to say. It's not mainstream behavior to have this kind of attitude.
I don't think that follows. It's just not mainstream behavior to say it out loud.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
"Get a few drinks in her and she'll be an easy lay" is fairly common - relying on the alcohol to merely lower her inhibitions. It probably isn't exactly rape, but it's not the moral high ground either.
And this is the crux of the argument, in my mind. If a girl is choosing to drink more than is wise, knowing full well that her inhibitions are lowered, and then consents to having sexual contact with someone else while not being in full possession of their faculties and thus not being able to make informed consent... it's an ethical grey area. She may have loudly and clearly given consent, but is she actually able to give consent when her inhibitions are lowered? Everything within me says that she can't give consent.
An ex-girlfriend of mine after too many drinks started pressuring me for more sexual contact than I knew she would want when sober (both of us were/are serious about waiting for marriage). At the time, she thought she was in full possession of her faculties and said she knew she wouldn't regret it at all. The next day she rang me, thanking me profusely that I had left her at home to sleep, and had point-blank refused to do any of what she had asked. Turning her down was the most difficult thing I've ever done, and after that, I monitored her drinking if we were out together, since I did not want her to put me into that situation again.
How do we explain to young men that sometimes 'yes' isn't an informed 'yes'. Had me and my ex-girlfriend been sleeping together, would it have been right for me to take advantage? Had we been married, I probably would have done what she asked, and I highly doubt either of us would have regretted it. I guess for me, being sexually involved with someone requires at the very least knowing them when they are sober, knowing what they want when sober, then being able to make a judgment call about what they are doing when their inhibitions are lowered, and taking the moral high ground if in doubt. How we explain that to men of a culture where drinking and one-night-stand hook-ups are common, I don't know.
[ 17. June 2013, 06:54: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
An ex-girlfriend of mine after too many drinks started pressuring me for more sexual contact than I knew she would want when sober (both of us were/are serious about waiting for marriage). At the time, she thought she was in full possession of her faculties and said she knew she wouldn't regret it at all. The next day she rang me, thanking me profusely that I had left her at home to sleep, and had point-blank refused to do any of what she had asked. Turning her down was the most difficult thing I've ever done...
Wow, nice work! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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