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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: When is Archbishop Vincent Nichols getting his cardinal's hat?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I'd like to know the answer. I'm just curious.
The Archbishop of Westminster has always been made a cardinal hitherto, but so far Archbishop Nichols hasn't, although in the position since 2009.
Is this solely due to vacant places in the College of Cardinals?
Any idea when he might get that red hat?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
In the Telegraph there has been a certain amount of speculation to the effect that his lack of enthusiasm for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham. Of course, the author of said speculation is an enthusiast for the EF and the Ordinariate so there might be an element of wishful thinking involved.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
And maybe things will change now there is a Pope who isn't, it seems, very enthusiastic about either of those things.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
Nichols hasn't gotten a red hat for twofold reasons:
1. A slap down to the English & Welsh hierarchy, a.k.a. the Magic Circle, for the indifferentism of the Hume/CMOC era.
2. Rome has been profoundly disappointed by Nichols' performance in remedying the above.
The current nuncio, Archbishop Mennini, was appointed for the express purpose of overhauling the hierarchy in the face of vigorous lobbying against his appointment by senior English clergy. The replacement of Crispian Hollis with Philip Egan in Portsmouth is instructive.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
All of the above may be true. It was well known that in the era of BXVI Rome disliked the English and Welsh hierarchy - and the creation of the ordinariate was party to circumvent them.
Interestingly, Cardinal Ratzinger when Prefect of SDF used to visit the UK from time to time quite unannounced and...stay with an Anglican vicar in Northamptonshire. It is to the latter that one owes the occasional snippet of gossip about the former pope's dislike of UK RC bishops and - like of Anglican cathedral music.
As far as I am aware this Anglican vicar never joined the ordinariate.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Much of what has been written is a load of old codswallop, I'm sorry to inform everyone. There is one particular priest in a certain Roman dicastery who excels in being nasty about the English hierarchy, but whose views are his own.
Damian Thompson flies his kites, which are usually his knickers in a twist on a very flimsy string. I can imagine just how wet his panties were when Pope Benedict appointed Arthur Roche to the Congregation for Divine Worship as number 2, given how Thompson had made a hobby of vilifying him and telling the world how much "Rome" disliked him.
Regarding just some of the stuff that has been said here:
1. Philip Egan was in fact second choice for Portsmouth. As we were told in the local press, there was a previous appointment who then turned it down. He was far from the darling of the traddies. None of which is a comment on Philip Egan, who seems to be a good thing.
2. If "Rome" is so unhappy with Vincent Nichols about the EF then it is very peculiar that the man who is responsible for the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei which oversees the EF should only a week ago have been a very happy guest of +VN and have addressed the whole of the Westminster presbyterate. Of course, he didn't come prancing around in a cappa magna, so the obsessive traddies didn't notice he was in town. And, by the way, do people realise just how many EF masses are in fact regularly celebrated in the Archdiocese of Westminster? The provision is far from sparse.
3. It seems that Vincent Nichols has done quite a lot for the ordinariate, actually. But of course nothing ever suffices. There was a great deal of crap sprouted about him being parsimonious in not giving them a church. Well, he has done - and quite a beautiful one at that. I haven't seen crowds of ex-Anglicans flocking to it, however, so all the protests about them needing their own building seems to have resulted in a petard being hoisted.
4. Damian Thompson wrote a bloody book pouring scorn on conspiracy theorists, and yet he seems to be an adept agent of conspiracy theories when it comes to the English hierarchy and Rome. I would love to know just what he thinks the English bishops could do to remove the nuncio. The problem with the English hierarchy is not that they are a bunch of heretics or wild liberals but that they are mostly wet and monochrome.
As always the answer to the OP is rather more prosaic: Pope Benedict had filled the College of Cardinals and there was already an English presence in the College in the form of Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. He reached the voting limit of 80 in August 2012. Pope Benedict's only consistory after that saw the creation of just 6 new Cardinals, all from outside Europe.
I would like to put my marker down and suggest that at the first consistory of Pope Francis Vincent Nichols will be amongst those to be elevated - not because Pope Francis is not an enthusiast for the EF or the ordinariate. The reason will simply be that there is currently no voting Cardinal in Great Britain so the gap ought to be filled. All his predecessors were appointed following the death of the former incumbent. +Vincent's immediate predecessor retired at the age of 76.
Vincent Nichols has been a bishop since 1992 and an Archbishop since 2000. If "Rome" did not like him he would not have been appointed to Westminster.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you very much, Triple Tiara, for a sensible reply which confirmed my suspicions - ie there wasn't room for him yet.
If Benedict didn't like Vince, he wouldn't have appointed him Archbishop in the first place.
You have my deep sympathies for having to put up with being bracketed as an RC with Ordinariate lovers and others.
Incidentally, where could I attend an EF mass in the London area?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Which beautiful church have they got?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
In the Telegraph there has been a certain amount of speculation to the effect that his lack of enthusiasm for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham. Of course, the author of said speculation is an enthusiast for the EF and the Ordinariate so there might be an element of wishful thinking involved.
Nobody should bother taking Damien Thompson seriously.
I've no idea why RCs are so keen on the old Mass. I for one enjoy worshipping God in a language I actually understand.
As for Abp Vincent, he strikes me as thoroughly decent and I rather like his plain manner. The "traditionalists" deride him as a "liberal" because his faith is scriptural and patristic, not a Mediaeval scholantic superstition. I hope he gets his red hat, because the Vatican could do with him, especially considering the very disappointing appointments to the Pope's new "I can't believe it's not a cabinet."
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I've no idea why RCs are so keen on the old Mass. I for one enjoy worshipping God in a language I actually understand.
There would be many here who would say the same about your enthusiasm for the language of the Book of Common Prayer.
An enthusiasm shared, I understand, by many clergy of the Ordinariate.
Our Lady Warwick Street is indeed a lovely church. I'm sorry to hear that. I was reading recently that it has the first statue of Our Lady of the Miralculous Medal outside France. Often lit a candle there.
[ 16. June 2013, 14:44: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I've no idea why RCs are so keen on the old Mass. I for one enjoy worshipping God in a language I actually understand.
There would be many here who would say the same about your enthusiasm for the language of the Book of Common Prayer.
An enthusiasm shared, I understand, by many clergy of the Ordinariate.
Our Lady Warwick Street is indeed a lovely church. I'm sorry to hear that. I was reading recently that it has the first statue of Our Lady of the Miralculous Medal outside France. Often lit a candle there.
The recusants in the Ordinariate hate the Prayer Book. First of all they are embarrassed by the Articles of Religion, and further they often refused (when they were Anglicans) to celebrate the 1662 Communion order because it isn't Roman enough.
When they begrudgingly do dip into the Prayer Book, they butcher the Evensong order by tacking on "benediction" at the end, a completely unknown practice in the English Church, even prior to the most blessed and gloriots Reformation.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I've no idea why RCs are so keen on the old Mass. I for one enjoy worshipping God in a language I actually understand.
You might have to be a Catholic to understand, but I'll say what I think.
Because it's beautiful and it can be numinous. It's out of the ordinary and you feel that you're connecting with centuries of tradition, all the way back to a time when Latin was the universal language across the known world. The English-language Mass rarely cuts it for me. It's short and quick, blink and it's over before you know it, and you usually go home feeling unsatisfied by a no-frills sort of service punctuated with plonky Victorian hymns which all sound much the same. Yes, it's universal - within anglophone countries - and I'm glad it exists for those that want it and who benefit from it. But for me there's less of a sense of communion with it, it feels modern, without depth, more isolated, less meaningful. I don't think I can explain it any better than that.
I don't have a problem with church Latin. It was part of my childhood and it isn't a language I don't understand. I know where I am with it, and I love being able to sing the responses in plainchant. I'm not a member of the Latin Mass Society or anything but these speak more to me than the modern versions usually do, and if our local church did Latin versions I'd probably be a regular there.
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I've no idea why RCs are so keen on the old Mass. I for one enjoy worshipping God in a language I actually understand.
You might have to be a Catholic to understand, but I'll say what I think.
Because it's beautiful and it can be numinous. It's out of the ordinary and you feel that you're connecting with centuries of tradition, all the way back to a time when Latin was the universal language across the known world. The English-language Mass rarely cuts it for me. It's short and quick, blink and it's over before you know it, and you usually go home feeling unsatisfied by a no-frills sort of service punctuated with plonky Victorian hymns which all sound much the same. Yes, it's universal - within anglophone countries - and I'm glad it exists for those that want it and who benefit from it. But for me there's less of a sense of communion with it, it feels modern, without depth, more isolated, less meaningful. I don't think I can explain it any better than that.
I don't have a problem with church Latin. It was part of my childhood and it isn't a language I don't understand. I know where I am with it, and I love being able to sing the responses in plainchant. I'm not a member of the Latin Mass Society or anything but these speak more to me than the modern versions usually do, and if our local church did Latin versions I'd probably be a regular there.
I respect that.
It really isn't to my artistically tastes - when you are used to the raw austerity of the Prayer Book Canon, the Roman canon strikes me as frilly and effemirate, and the same goes for the elaborate ceremonial.
I do however think that the old one-year Lectionary is far superior to the RCL.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
... A slap down to the English & Welsh hierarchy, a.k.a. the Magic Circle, for the indifferentism of the Hume/CMOC era. ...
CL or anyone else, for the benefit of those of us who are not Papists and presumably benighted in your eyes, please could you explain what on earth you are talking about. This statement is meaningless for the rest of us.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The recusants in the Ordinariate hate the Prayer Book.
I purposely said "the language of the Book of Common Prayer".
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
When they begrudgingly do dip into the Prayer Book, they butcher the Evensong order by tacking on "benediction" at the end,
How can you 'butcher' something if you leave it in its entirety, whatever you stick on the end of it?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
When they begrudgingly do dip into the Prayer Book, they butcher the Evensong order by tacking on "benediction" at the end, a completely unknown practice in the English Church, even prior to the most blessed and gloriots Reformation.
I'm not sure this is entirely true, given the extent of the cult of the observation of the MBS that existed in England prior to the Reformation. Whilst I can't quickly find references to a service of benediction, Duffy (The Stripping of the Altars) and Rubin (Corpus Christi) provide plenty of evidence for this cult.
I do not doubt it was not a part of Evensong, but given Cranmer invented that office out of a merging of Vespers and Compline, that's hardly surprising (just as he did Matins out of the morning offices).
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Without being an expert on the matter I would say that Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament became popular in the period after the Council of Trent.Choir screens were removed from most Catholic churches (not all !!!) and it was important then to be able to see the high altar
18th,19th and 20th centuries were a high period for Benediction until the period when more people started to go regularly to Communion.
This is not to say that the MBS was not exposed for veneration in the period before the English Reformation,but certainly not to the same extent as was the case in the Catholic church during the baroque period.
The same thing as has happened to Vincent Nicholls in England happened in Scotland.Gordon Gray,Archbishop pof St Andrews and Edinburgh was made a cardinal in 1968.He retired as archbishop in 1985.It wasn't till his death a good few years afterwards that a new cardinal was appointed.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
Just so no one is confused the Ordinariate does not use the 1662 BCP. It uses, along with the current Roman Missal, the Book of Divine Worship which is based on the US BCP thus follows in the Scottish Episcopal tradition rather than the English. The current liturgical guidelines for the UK Ordinariate are to be found here:
https://www.ordinariate.org.uk/document.doc?id=99
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Golly, do you really think that's the primary issue for the appointment of Cardinals, that they "ensure" that priests wear clerical garb? Who'd have thought. I wonder what all the other Cardinals do to "ensure" this compliance.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
This is likely the reason for the slow magna-capping of Msgr Lépine of Montréal or, even more criminally, the delay in bringing that dignity to the primatial see of Québec. I have, on several occasions, seen clergy in business wear, professorial garb or even street clothes. A failure in leadership!
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Gosh, I just asked a simple question...
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
A slap down to the English & Welsh hierarchy, a.k.a. the Magic Circle, for the indifferentism of the Hume/CMOC era.
I've never understood this whole 'Magic Circle' palaver. Surely if one is a member of an authoritarian and hierarchical church you get bossed around by bishops. If you want responsible and accountable democratic structures you join the Methodists or the Mennonites and if you want anarchy you join the C of E.
So what on earth are Catholics, nay traditionalist Catholics, doing whinging about how their opinions are being ignored by the hierarchy. If you are a Catholic your Bishop has been appointed by God's Vicegerent on earth to govern you and if he's keen on Inwood or polite to schismatics you are supposed to suck it up and deal for the good of your immortal soul. He's a Catholic Bishop he's accountable to a) The Pope and b) God and you're not a Freeborn Protestant Englishman whose rights must be respected. Sorry about that. Oh, and don't give me that whole "if only the Holy Fatherkin, knew about the things that are done in his name". The Cossacks work for the Czar. The Cossacks always work for the Czar. The Cossacks are appointed by the Czar. As I said, sorry about that.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
the most blessed and gloriots Reformation.
Just as an aside, as much as I value the Reformation, in the context of relations with RCs, a lot of utter reprehensible stuff happened, some of which perpetrated by Anglicans and other Protestants. For that reason I don't agree with your adjectives.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Without being an expert on the matter I would say that Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament became popular in the period after the Council of Trent.Choir screens were removed from most Catholic churches (not all !!!) and it was important then to be able to see the high altar
18th,19th and 20th centuries were a high period for Benediction until the period when more people started to go regularly to Communion.
This is not to say that the MBS was not exposed for veneration in the period before the English Reformation,but certainly not to the same extent as was the case in the Catholic church during the baroque period.
Agreed, I certainly wouldn't claim Benediction was originally celebrated as it grew to be. However, societies saying an evening office (not the Evening Office, mind) before the MBS exposed were certainly not unusual and guilds for the purpose seem to have been widespread in England and Germany.
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