|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Catholic Church in Engand
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
Interesting that I can get banned for stating mainstream Protest opinion on this forum but other members are allowed to call me any name under the sun and get away with it.
As for CL, how exactly can Rome be the OHCAC when she has so clearly erred from the doctrines of the Church of the first millennium? I don't remember St Paul teaching the Treasury of Merit.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Well, it was a long time ago, Indifferently. Perhaps you fell asleep like Eutychus (the biblical character, not the shipmate)? But respect: I had no idea you were so old.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
You say that like that“s a bad thing.
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-ą-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Interesting that I can get banned for stating mainstream Protest opinion on this forum but other members are allowed to call me any name under the sun and get away with it.
In what sense is it mainstream Protestant opinion that the Catholic Church is 'for' effeminate homosexuals?
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-ą-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Interesting that I can get banned for stating mainstream Protest opinion on this forum but other members are allowed to call me any name under the sun and get away with it.
In what sense is it mainstream Protestant opinion that the Catholic Church is 'for' effeminate homosexuals?
It certainly was when Newman went over.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
Immigrants? Like the Lord and His Earthly family?
Well, much as I hesitate to agree with Indifferently, in England the RCC for much of the last couple of hundred years was largely composed of recusants- that is, English people from families (quite a lot, in a few areas of the country) which did not (lastingly) accept the Reformation- greatly augmented with immigrants from other parts of the British Isles (mainly Ireland) and elsewhere (notably Italy, then Poland), and their families/ descendants, and then people who had converted to the RCC for one reason or another.
So I don't think there's anything inaccurate or derogatory in saying that recusants and immigrants have been the historic core of English Roman Catholicism. But to identify the RCC in England now as being solely a church for recusants, immigrants, and converts is to ignore the extent to which it has developed from those roots. (And indeed, as ken and others would tell you, the influence of more recent immigration on the CofE in some areas.)
I wasn't denying that the RCC is often the church of choice for immigrants to the UK, I was questioning the idea that this is somehow a bad thing. IMO it's one of the RCC's strengths.
Indifferently, of all your issues with the RCC, why pick on immigration? Is it sinful to be an immigrant? Because as I said, our Lord and His family were immigrants.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Educate us all, then, CL...
The word "subsist" refers to the visible bounds of the Church. It was a technical point - Rome and all the Churches in communion with her are The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The exact boundaries of the OHCAC are however open to question (we know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't) as certain bodies possess characteristics that suggest they are valid, if schismatic, local Churches, i.e. valid Holy Orders and sacraments, hierarchical structures, etc, such as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. There has been absolutely no change in Rome's assertion that she is The Catholic Church.
I've never really understood this position of Rome and I would even dare to suggest that it betrays a certain disbelief in in it's own ecclesiology. To say that there are Holy Mysteries outside the Church borders on the blaphemous.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-ą-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-ą-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Interesting that I can get banned for stating mainstream Protest opinion on this forum but other members are allowed to call me any name under the sun and get away with it.
In what sense is it mainstream Protestant opinion that the Catholic Church is 'for' effeminate homosexuals?
It certainly was when Newman went over.
As I recall, the remarks you have in mind were directed towards Anglo-Catholicism rather than the Catholic Church. By your own account, you attend Mass at Anglo-Catholic churches semi-regularly. Adapting bigoted innuendos of the nineteenth century to stereotype Catholics in 2013 is a poor joke.
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
To say that there are Holy Mysteries outside the Church borders on the blaphemous.
Whereas to say that Holy Mysteries are only to be found within the Church is definitely blasphemous.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
To say that there are Holy Mysteries outside the Church borders on the blaphemous.
Whereas to say that Holy Mysteries are only to be found within the Church is definitely blasphemous.
How can the Holy Mysteries exist outside the Church? Remember, I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't act outside the Church, only that there are no Holy Mysteries outside it.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Depends how you define Holy Mysteries and how you define Church I suppose.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Interesting that I can get banned for stating mainstream Protest opinion on this forum
If by mainstream you mean "Mainstream" then I have to doubt it is really mainstream at all. That is like Christian Voice being regarded as the authoritative voice of Christians in the UK.
quote:
but other members are allowed to call me any name under the sun and get away with it.
While the name-calling is confined to Hell, you'll have to live with that.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
I am a loyal Roman Catholic,though not English.(Well,I did have a grandfather from Yorkshire)
As a loyal Catholic I see the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as 'subsisting' within the visible framework of the Roman Catholic church,wherever in the world it may be found.
I recognise at the same time all my human brothers and sisters as children of God,just like myself and as those for whom Jesus Christ died on the cross.This includes those who share my faith in Jesus Christ as much as those who do not share it.They are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ(all part of Christ's one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church) - and that includes all those like Ken who is an evangelical Anglican,I think.
Yes there is a difference between those clergy who have been appointed by Catholic bishops- those who exercise their ministry licitly or indeed illicitly like the society of St Pius X schismatically like Orthodox (in the generally accepted meaning of the word) or heretically for those who do not share the fullness of the Catholic faith and order.I use these words 'licitly,illicitly,schismatically and heretically' but they are technical terms and should not be used as terms of abuse.
Catholics should recognise a child of God, a brother or sister,in every human being,a fellow Chri stian in everyone who confesses Christ and respect the ministry of all those who seek to serve their fellow Christians in whatever community they belong to.I would honour and respect a Presbyterian minister as a Presbyterian minister,an Anglican vicar or bishop as an Anglican vicar or bishop,a Lutheran pastor as a Lutheran pastor and a Catholic priest,bishop or even pope as a Catholic priest,bishop or pope.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I use these words 'licitly,illicitly,schismatically and heretically' but they are technical terms and should not be used as terms of abuse.
I hesitate to type this, as you're clearly trying to be generous and inclusive, but IMO words like 'heretically' will never be received in a purely technical sense. Sorry. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
The original post asked what those of us who are Church of England consider the Roman Catholic Church to be so here's my two-pennorth:
A sect.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
Presumably because they are like bees, who are of course in sects.
Sorry.
Anyway, as an Anglican, I believe the great majority of Anglicans to believe RCs to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. The word “sect“ is applied to those who split away from a main body, like Christians from Judaism, us Anglicans from the RCs, various non-conformists from us. The word is however very loaded and seeks only to justify the ones who use the term.
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
According to the OED dictionary 'heretical'means 'doctrinal error,heterodoxy.Those who diverge from the teachings of the Roman church are WITH REGARD TO THESE TEACHINGS in a state of doctrinal error.,that is,if one is to believe the teachings of the Roman church.
Those who do not believe for various reasons the teachings of the Roman church are not bound to think that they are in a state of doctrinal error.
I'm almost certain that the church of England does not believe itself to be in doctrinal error but rather to believe in certain respects the Roman church to be guilty of doctrinal error(heresy)
I would never personally refer to a fellow Christian or even a fellow human being as a heretic since I know that it is a loaded word.
However if the CofE is the Catholic church in England,is the National church of Scotland in Scotland the Catholic Church in Scotland ? If not why not ? is it in doctrinal error ? are its clergy impostors ? schismatics ? sectarians ?
If the National (Presbyterian)church of Scotland is the Catholic Church in Scotland what then is the Episcopal church in Scotland and what indeed is the 'sect' known as the Catholic Church in Scotland ?
If the Catholic church in England is as l'organist asserts a sect is it also a sect in France? If not why not ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-ą-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Interesting that I can get banned for stating mainstream Protest opinion on this forum but other members are allowed to call me any name under the sun and get away with it.
In what sense is it mainstream Protestant opinion that the Catholic Church is 'for' effeminate homosexuals?
It certainly was when Newman went over.
Rearrange the following words into a well-known phrase or saying, Indifferently:
When a hole you are in, digging stop
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Dr William Oddie is the sort of Roman Catholic who makes me think the Rev Ian Paisley and the monks of Esphigmenou aren't quite as batty as they look! I doubt Pope Francis has ever heard of him, but with friends like that to defend one, who needs enemies.
And Oddie was a former Anglican priest!
There's no anti- like an ex-
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I would honour and respect a Presbyterian minister as a Presbyterian minister,an Anglican vicar or bishop as an Anglican vicar or bishop,a Lutheran pastor as a Lutheran pastor and a Catholic priest,bishop or even pope as a Catholic priest,bishop or pope.
I respect your ecumenism and tolerance shown in so many of your posts, Forthview. So I assume it was simply a slip to refer to an Anglican 'vicar', above. As far as I know, the Anglicans (Scottish Episcopalians) in your part of the world don't have 'vicars' (or at least not many of them); many or most of those popularly called such in the C of E are not vicars but rectors, curates, chaplains etc. I know that from a strict Catholic point of view we aren't priests either, but nor are our bishops bishops.
Courtesy (and I'm not accusing you of discourtesy, just of carelessness) usually means these days that we refer to one another's ministers as they prefer to be called. Most Catholics have no problem referring to Anglican priests as priests, and addressing them as Father if that is their preference (and gender!), without implying that they are the same thing as Catholic priests.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
Sorry,Angloid,I meant no disrespect.Being an international sort of person,when referring to an 'Anglican vicar' I was referring to a Church of England parson in England,not to a Scottish Episcopalian incumbent in an Episcopalian
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
cut off - I was referring to a Church of England 'vicar' not to an incumbent of a charge in the Episcopal church in Scotland.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
cut off - I was referring to a Church of England 'vicar' not to an incumbent of a charge in the Episcopal church in Scotland.
In practice, Anglican priests in England are often called "vicar" by the general public, even if they are actually rectors. Titles like "vicar" and "rector" are the equivalent of "pastor" in the RCC--that is, they're not the name of an order, but a job description.
The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
Nope.
As our Lord Jesus taught, there are Sheep (who follow) and there are Goats (who make their own way). Unfortunately, our Lord has a problem with the Goats, but His Father handles goats pretty well. So--
There's a Church for the obedient, and there's a Church (as Paul taught) for Free Minds; and both Churches do the will of God.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) EEWC
quote:
Originally posted by ncnative:
Hello and thanks for allowing me to join the Ship! I recently read an article in the Catholic Herald which explained that the CoE considers itself to be the Catholic Church "in England," the exact same Church that had existed prior to the reformation, and exists still as that same Church - or I think that's what the article was saying.
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
[ 20. June 2013, 22:50: Message edited by: Emily Windsor-Cragg ]
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Surely mainstream Protestant opinion is that particular churches are the local instantiation of the Holy Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ. Neither the RCC nor the CofE are churches in that sense. They are connexions of churches, federations or alliances whose members are churches.
--------------------
Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Surely mainstream Protestant opinion is that particular churches are the local instantiation of the Holy Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ. Neither the RCC nor the CofE are churches in that sense. They are connexions of churches, federations or alliances whose members are churches.
--------------------
Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
Mainstream Protestant opinion doesn't matter in the cosmic schema of things.
Neither, for that matter, does mainstream CATHOLIC opinion matter.
The consitituencies are not material to the function of leadership in any way.
They can believe whatever they want, who cares?
It's Leadership that heads this ship this way or that way, toward Thriving or toward Oblivion and Extinction.
Earth is troubled by a Leadership obsessed with Extinction of this cultures, that culture, this individual, that individual.
Can you see where this obsession is leading?
EEWC
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
What a curious piece of BCP positivism...that or a thoroughgoing non sequitur.
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
|
Posted
I don't think Dr Oddie is a friend of Pope Francis, or if he is currently it won't be for long. In one of his columns, just after Pope Francis was elected, he said that he really thought of Pope Benedict as being the real Pope....or words to that effect.
I'm sure Pope Francis makes him feel uncomfortable as he does all of us who read what he has to say. Isn't that a good thing?
--------------------
http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
What a curious piece of BCP positivism...that or a thoroughgoing non sequitur.
The more signficant thing, of course, is the commentary to be found in the Preface to the Ordinal, bound together as part of the BCP, which stipulates that there have ever been three chief orders of ministers in the Church, and that it is the intent of the Church of England that these be continued.
Yes, I know that doesn't obviate arguments based on a putative defect of intention. Not sure if that's a DH; if not, it probably ought to be.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
What a curious piece of BCP positivism...that or a thoroughgoing non sequitur.
The Prayer Book saith it, I believeth it and that settleth it! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
What a curious piece of BCP positivism...that or a thoroughgoing non sequitur.
I may have misread him, but Forthview seemed to be implying that the Church of England shies from calling its presbyters "priests". As the language of the BCP shows, that is not the case.
Whether other churches consider those presbyters to be priests or not is not an issue I intended to address, nor an argument I'm interested in having.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
I was about to comment on a book by William Oddie, which I thought reasonable, and then found he seems to be regarded as some sort of loonie.
His basic thesis was that England would be better off with a strong church in the reformed tradition, formed by a merger of the CofE, Methodit and URC, and a strong Catholic Church, Roman of course. I didn't get the I pression he was holding his breath, nor that he was some sort of extreme catholic.
Must've missed something.
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
Dear Fr Weber I can assure you that I was not implying anything when I used the term'Vicar' for certain Anglican priests .I personally have no objection to calling Anglican priests,priests,nor do I have any objection to calling Anglican bishops bishops nor indeed to calling Mormon bishops bishops,if that is the way they wish to be addressed.
My knowledge of the Church of England is somewhat limited but I thought that Anglican parish priests often had the title of 'Vicar' and to give my sentence an Anglican flavour I used the fairly common word in Anglican circles 'vicar' This was not to imply that Anglican priests are or are not in Roman Catholic terms 'priests.
However the Church of England designates its clergy is a matter for the Church of England,not for me.I,for one,was in no way seeking to imply that the Church of England had no right to call its presbyters 'priests' and I don't know what gave you that impression.
Further to the term 'vicar' not being generally used by the Scottish Episcopal church,since there are no incumbents who receive the 'Great tithes' of an English clerical rector,nor vicars who receive the lesser Tithes as was until 1936 the case in England,Scottish Episcopal clergy are known generally by the population and often by the members of the Scottish Episcopal church as 'ministers' This is generally the term used by most people in Scotland for clergy unless they happen to be Roman Catholic 'priests'.
'Rectors' in Scotland are generally understood to be the head teachers of certain secondary schools and 'provosts' are generally reckoned to be the head of a town Council rather than the head of a cathedral chapter of canons.This is however NOT to imply that certain Scottish Episcopalian clergy DO NOT use the word 'priest' to designate themselves or other clerical members of the Scottish Episcopal church.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
Priest seems to be the most widely used term in my (albeit limited) experience of the SEC.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Is there a difference between a presbyter and a priest? I thought the one was a shorter version of the other (in words, not stature).
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
I don't think Dr Oddie is a friend of Pope Francis, or if he is currently it won't be for long. In one of his columns, just after Pope Francis was elected, he said that he really thought of Pope Benedict as being the real Pope....or words to that effect. ...
Of course, I don't actually know, but I did say earlier that I would be surprised if Pope Francis has ever heard of Dr Oddie.
Being a Catholic and saying that even though the full College of Cardinals has elected a new Pope, you think the previous Pope is still the real one, strikes me as directly comparable to being CofE and saying that although the BCP refers to priests, you don't think CofE clergy are priests.
[ 21. June 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: Enoch ]
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
priest is indeed a shorter form of the word 'presbyter'
Few people amongst the generality of the population here in Scotland will ever have heard of the word 'presbyter'.Most people will have heard somewhere of 'presbyterian' though they may not connect the two words.
Equally few people will know that 'presbyter; means 'elder' although the word 'elder' will be known by a good number of people as something to do with the Kirk.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
I don't think combining hierarchies is ~NOT~ the answer to any problem we have in the Christian religion.
Jesus taught, taking individual initiatives [grassroots] action and hierarchies are very passive, ornate, given to dogma and full of reluctance and resistance.
I'd rather all the churches simply break apart entirely, and free us to simply deal with the Truth, in Christian problem-solving, as in Matthew chapter 18.
Fix problems yourself.
Of course, some communities have more or less effective methods for problem-solving.
I like the Benedictines.
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I was about to comment on a book by William Oddie, which I thought reasonable, and then found he seems to be regarded as some sort of loonie.
His basic thesis was that England would be better off with a strong church in the reformed tradition, formed by a merger of the CofE, Methodit and URC, and a strong Catholic Church, Roman of course. I didn't get the I pression he was holding his breath, nor that he was some sort of extreme catholic.
Must've missed something.
[ 21. June 2013, 21:11: Message edited by: Emily Windsor-Cragg ]
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
I don't think combining hierarchies is ~NOT~ the answer to any problem we have in the Christian religion.
Jesus taught, taking individual initiatives [grassroots] action and hierarchies are very passive, ornate, given to dogma and full of reluctance and resistance.
I'd rather all the churches simply break apart entirely, and free us to simply deal with the Truth, in Christian problem-solving, as in Matthew chapter 18.
Fix problems yourself.
Of course, some communities have more or less effective methods for problem-solving.
I like the Benedictines.
...who have no hierarchy?
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
All communities have hierarchies and articulated functions--even secular and corporate communities--with Condo documents, Cooperative Agreements and local norms.
It's just when one over-arching l-a-r-g-e hierarchy presumes to take over and dominate local business that hierarchy becomes a problem in and of itself.
The Benedictine Order enjoys autonomy, in and of itself. It's a self-governing community, and its members are quite free-thinking in their individual habits. So are the Trappists.
But I would not say that of the Poor Claires or Dominican Order of Nuns. They are closed TIGHT--at least, here in California. They're like stepping back into the Middle Ages. I've met them. Mind CAGES in drag!
EEWC
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
What a curious piece of BCP positivism...that or a thoroughgoing non sequitur.
If the BCP isn't the primary and normative source of Christian revelation, then why does the Bible quote it so much?
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emily Windsor-Cragg
Shipmate
# 17687
|
Posted
The BCP can print what it wants, but God is not to be contained in a material Book--especially one that's 4000-2000 years old.
The Holy Spirit has to do double-duty until a new Scripture is written for our time.
eewc
Posts: 326 | From: California | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
The Church of England obviously has and always has had priests. That is clearly the teaching of the BCP. Why do you think foreign Reformed ministers have always had to submit to episcopal ordination? The liturgy in the ordinal is clear, and even when the Edwardine ordinal was in use, the intention was clearly to do what the Church does. End of.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
What a curious piece of BCP positivism...that or a thoroughgoing non sequitur.
If the BCP isn't the primary and normative source of Christian revelation, then why does the Bible quote it so much?
The BCP derives its authority from Scripture, which the vast majority of it is directly taken from. Therefore it is true to say that the BCP is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Presumably because they are like bees, who are of course in sects.
Sorry.
Anyway, as an Anglican, I believe the great majority of Anglicans to believe RCs to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. The word “sect“ is applied to those who split away from a main body, like Christians from Judaism, us Anglicans from the RCs, various non-conformists from us. The word is however very loaded and seeks only to justify the ones who use the term.
We did not split from Judaism, WE ARE the continuation of Israel. If anyone split, it was the Jews, who split from God when they rejected the Incarnate Word. As Wesley puts it:
Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
[QUOTE]The BCP quite plainly calls presbyters of the Church of England priests, so that's what they are.
What a curious piece of BCP positivism...that or a thoroughgoing non sequitur.
If the BCP isn't the primary and normative source of Christian revelation, then why does the Bible quote it so much?
The BCP derives its authority from Scripture, which the vast majority of it is directly taken from. Therefore it is true to say that the BCP is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
If the BCP is good enough for St. Paul, it's good enough for me!
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Presumably because they are like bees, who are of course in sects.
Sorry.
Anyway, as an Anglican, I believe the great majority of Anglicans to believe RCs to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. The word “sect“ is applied to those who split away from a main body, like Christians from Judaism, us Anglicans from the RCs, various non-conformists from us. The word is however very loaded and seeks only to justify the ones who use the term.
We did not split from Judaism, WE ARE the continuation of Israel. If anyone split, it was the Jews, who split from God when they rejected the Incarnate Word. As Wesley puts it:
Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.
Oh, Lord. Are you really whipping out the blood libel?
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Presumably because they are like bees, who are of course in sects.
Sorry.
Anyway, as an Anglican, I believe the great majority of Anglicans to believe RCs to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. The word “sect“ is applied to those who split away from a main body, like Christians from Judaism, us Anglicans from the RCs, various non-conformists from us. The word is however very loaded and seeks only to justify the ones who use the term.
We did not split from Judaism, WE ARE the continuation of Israel. If anyone split, it was the Jews, who split from God when they rejected the Incarnate Word. As Wesley puts it:
Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.
Oh, Lord. Are you really whipping out the blood libel?
Not at all.
I blame myself for the Lords cross and passion. I'm merely saying it is wrong to say that Christianity is a sect which broke off from Israel. It is not.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Y'see, I got confused because you said "The Jews aren't Israel" and then justified it with a Wesley hymn about the people that crucified Jesus going (presumably) to hell.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
Would it not be fairer to say that Second Temple Judaism is the common ancestor of both Christianity and rabbinical Judaism.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
