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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Catholic Church in Engand
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Presumably because they are like bees, who are of course in sects.
Sorry.
Anyway, as an Anglican, I believe the great majority of Anglicans to believe RCs to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. The word ´sect´ is applied to those who split away from a main body, like Christians from Judaism, us Anglicans from the RCs, various non-conformists from us. The word is however very loaded and seeks only to justify the ones who use the term.
We did not split from Judaism, WE ARE the continuation of Israel. If anyone split, it was the Jews, who split from God when they rejected the Incarnate Word. As Wesley puts it:
Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.
Well said.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
We did not split from Judaism, WE ARE the continuation of Israel.
After the destruction of the Temple, I think squabbling sisters was the better analogy.
At least until Constantine, the ghettos, pogroms, and the Holocaust, anyway.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I would honour and respect a Presbyterian minister as a Presbyterian minister,an Anglican vicar or bishop as an Anglican vicar or bishop,a Lutheran pastor as a Lutheran pastor and a Catholic priest,bishop or even pope as a Catholic priest,bishop or pope.
I respect your ecumenism and tolerance shown in so many of your posts, Forthview. So I assume it was simply a slip to refer to an Anglican 'vicar', above. As far as I know, the Anglicans (Scottish Episcopalians) in your part of the world don't have 'vicars' (or at least not many of them); many or most of those popularly called such in the C of E are not vicars but rectors, curates, chaplains etc. I know that from a strict Catholic point of view we aren't priests either, but nor are our bishops bishops.
Courtesy (and I'm not accusing you of discourtesy, just of carelessness) usually means these days that we refer to one another's ministers as they prefer to be called. Most Catholics have no problem referring to Anglican priests as priests, and addressing them as Father if that is their preference (and gender!), without implying that they are the same thing as Catholic priests.
My copy of the Church of Ireland Book of Common Prayer refers to Deacons, Priests and Bishops so on the basis of what they are called, I call them that.
Any (Roman) Catholic slipping into weasel terms like "Vicar", "Rector" or "Minister" outside of the technical meaning of those terms should be reminded of how just how much it grinds the gears of Irish people to be told that they come from "Eire" and are taught "Erse" in school.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Effemirate? Qatari tents?
This catholic fully embraces his Catholic heritage and his Catholic siblings despite - and because of - their necessary formal hostility.
God bless them in that. God bless them period. God bless us.
And he embraces our enemy and Christ's Indifferently. In Christ.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I had no idea that a word like 'vicar' would cause me so much aggro.
This morning on BBC radio there was a religious service from St Martin in the Fields (Anglican) church in London.The announcer said that it would be introduced by the vicar,but he omitted to tell us whether the vicar was a priest (in any sense of the word) or not.I think that was probably because he assumed that we would know what was meant by the word 'vicar'.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I notice that Angloid reminds me that 'courtesy tells us that we refer to one another's ministers as they prefer to be called.
I wonder what Ronald Binge thinks about the use of the word 'minister' in this context ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I don't know what Ronald Binge thinks, but 'minister' is surely an all-encompassing word. All priests are ministers but not all ministers are priests.
As for the St Martin in the Fields service, presumably the Vicar was introduced as the Vicar because he was the Vicar. If the service had come from a cathedral they might have introduced the Dean. Or, with an increasing number of Anglican parishes these days, it might have been a Priest-in-charge.
I suspect that the popular use of the term 'Vicar' to describe any Anglican cleric originated because of protestant prejudice against the word 'priest.' But as many people have pointed out, the Prayer Book (even in its most 'protestant' versions) has always maintained the three orders of ministry, bishops, priests and deacons. That doesn't mean that Anglican and Catholic views of priesthood are identical; nor does it mean that the ministers/presbyters of other churches are not essentially the same as our priests, whatever the preferred terminology. As Fr Jack said, 'that would be an ecumenical matter', or at least a Purgatorial one.
It's not a big deal – I'm certainly not accusing Forthview of insensitivity or anti-anglican prejudice - but This is a Christian Website and we should try and get things right. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Not all Lutheran clergy for that matter are pastors,some indeed are called 'Vikar'
I'm not sure how many Lutheran clergy there are in Scotland .I know only one parish area which covers Scotland and the North of England.
When I speak to the pastor I call him Herr Pfarrer or Herr Pastor.His wife is also ordained and I would address her formally as Frau Pastorin or Frau Pfarrerin. Were I to speak to a German Lutheran bishop I would most certainly not ask about the validity or otherwise of their episcopal titles or orders but simply address them as 'Herr Landesbischof' or Frau Landesbischoefin.
Herr Pastor or Herr Pfarrer is used equally for Catholic clergy ( though not Frau Pastorin !!)
I think that Lutheran helping clergy are referred to as Herr Vikar(Frau Vikarin) and Catholic helping clergy as Herr Kaplan.
When in Rome one does as the Romans do or as one says in translated German 'amongst the wolves you have to howl'
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Tangential question: I gather that German Lutherans avoid the title/description 'priest'. Is that also the case with Scandinavian (especially Swedish) Lutherans? In other respects they seem like MOTR+ Anglicans.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I suspect that the popular use of the term 'Vicar' to describe any Anglican cleric originated because of protestant prejudice against the word 'priest.'
To the vast majority of the population, anyone in a dog collar is referred to as a vicar regardless of denomination. A lot of Readers get it too.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Tangential question: I gather that German Lutherans avoid the title/description 'priest'. Is that also the case with Scandinavian (especially Swedish) Lutherans? In other respects they seem like MOTR+ Anglicans.
In Finland, at least, they are referred to as "pappi" which is "priest".
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Would it not be fairer to say that Second Temple Judaism is the common ancestor of both Christianity and rabbinical Judaism.
Much. It would have the added advantage of being true as well.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The announcer said that it would be introduced by the vicar,but he omitted to tell us whether the vicar was a priest (in any sense of the word) or not.I think that was probably because he assumed that we would know what was meant by the word 'vicar'.
All vicars are priests, but not all priests are vicars. The Revd Dr Sam Wells, the gentleman in question, is indeed vicar of St. Martin in the Fields. It's pretty common for the man in the street to refer to a rector, priest-in-charge, or anyone who happens to be wearing a dog collar and looks as though they might be in charge, as "vicar" though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Tangential question: I gather that German Lutherans avoid the title/description 'priest'. Is that also the case with Scandinavian (especially Swedish) Lutherans? In other respects they seem like MOTR+ Anglicans.
In Finland, at least, they are referred to as "pappi" which is "priest".
In Iceland, they are known as "prestur."
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
All vicars are priests, but not all priests are vicars. The Revd Dr Sam Wells, the gentleman in question, is indeed vicar of St. Martin in the Fields. It's pretty common for the man in the street to refer to a rector, priest-in-charge, or anyone who happens to be wearing a dog collar and looks as though they might be in charge, as "vicar" though.
That's true. Some clergy, sadly, encourage this, too. I've worked with assistant curates and NSMs who permitted congregations to refer regularly to them - even in meetings, and in official writing etc - as 'vicar'. This inevitably caused a lot of confusion when there was, in fact, a properly licensed vicar coming into post; or the formal ministry was headed not by any vicar at all but by a rector. There would be a conversation with someone who had been 'talking with the vicar' or claiming that 'the vicar said we could do this' - and the real vicar or rector is scratching their head thinking 'wtf?'
In Church of Ireland circles, the Anglican priest is nearly always referred to as 'the Minister' or the Rector, if they are a Rector. There are a few actual vicar-posts, but not generally. But there are references in various services to 'The priest....', so it's there. But just not obvious.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Many years ago I was visiting Fr John Milburn (of blessed memory) in his clergy house in Brighton. Being an ignorant Yank I referred to him as the vicar of Brighton to which he hastily replied "I am NOT the vicar of Brighton !" (who was in the next parish over). I appreciated being set straight on this and am always careful to use the proper terminology where ever I am.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I suspect that the popular use of the term 'Vicar' to describe any Anglican cleric originated because of protestant prejudice against the word 'priest.'
The term "Vicar" is uncommon on these shores, so it doesn't lend itself to the same kind of synecdoche. I've only encountered it at cathedrals (where the Dean is rector), and in the American context I know it is used for mission congregations who have a vicar answerable to the bishop rather than an parish rector in their own right.
I do recall an episode of Waiting for God when the old Irishman exclaims that "vicars and nuns are from different churches!" which might have sounded sophisticated to the writers but leaves an awful lot of CoE religious in the lurch. (I was pleased by the attention the royal wedding brought to the phenomemon of Anglican religious in the persons of the Abbey chaplains).
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Not all Lutheran clergy for that matter are pastors,some indeed are called 'Vikar'
Here, at least, Lutherans (particularly of the Missourian flavour) tend to use "vicar" to refer to seminarians on internship. (Lutheran seminaries generally devote the third of a four-year programme to this parish placement).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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