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Source: (consider it) Thread: The good ol' U S of A
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by the gnome:
Female suffrage. At the national level we weren't especially quick to adopt female suffrage. But in some states, especially those in the West, women had the vote from the 1860s.

Unless you happen to be black of course or one of the native tribes. Don't they still own the land on which New York was built?

On another point that the USesn't do well ... I heard on the BBC news last night that the US Secretary of State has said that North Korea is not allowed to have nuclear missiles. Who does he think he is to make such pronouncements? Arrogance of the first order!

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It's not arrogance when North Korea signed this.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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From that article:
quote:
"We had already taken the resolute action of pulling out of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and have manufactured nuclear arms for self-defence to cope with the Bush administration's evermore undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the DPRK [Democratic People's Republic of Korea]," a North Korean Foreign Ministry statement said regarding the issue.
The US agreed to sign a peace treaty with North Korea which Jr. Bush then backed out of.
Way to deal with the already paranoid.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I heard on the BBC news last night that the US Secretary of State has said that North Korea is not allowed to have nuclear missiles.

No, that's not correct. Secretary Kerry said that North Korea would never be accepted among the nuclear powers. In other words, they can have as many weapons as they care to, but we'll never welcome them into our club as a member.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
On another point that the USesn't do well ... I heard on the BBC news last night that the US Secretary of State has said that North Korea is not allowed to have nuclear missiles. Who does he think he is to make such pronouncements? Arrogance of the first order!

He thinks he's one of the people charged with preventing North Korea from launching nuclear missiles at the U.S. As I'm living rather close to one of the supposed targets, I'm glad to see he's doing his job.

So either get yourself up to speed on this topic or fuck off. Either one works for me.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
[QUOTE]He thinks he's one of the people charged with preventing North Korea from launching nuclear missiles at the U.S. As I'm living rather close to one of the supposed targets, I'm glad to see he's doing his job.

So either get yourself up to speed on this topic or fuck off. Either one works for me.

Oh dear - your liberal views don't run to polite responses. Keep on squeezing the hankie darling!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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You think being polite is a consideration here? And you think it's polite to call me "darling"? And you think a statement of fact about what Kerry's job is illustrates my liberal views?

Try again, asshole.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Unless you happen to be black of course or one of the native tribes. Don't they still own the land on which New York was built?

Actually, the island of Manhattan is one of the few pieces of property which was actually paid for. It's possible the wrong tribe was paid for property that wasn't theirs, but at least a good-faith effort was made. Of course, that was done by the Dutch, not the English who rarely bothered with such niceties.

Not that we have any right to be proud of the way we treated the native Americans once we were on our own, but the dreadful policies were a continuation of the policies put in place when we were English colonies. For that matter, there is no reason to believe the the 19th century would have been any better for native tribes if we had NOT become independent. Reading Sir Richard Burton's "The City of the Saints" leads one to believe it would have been just as bad.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
RooK

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# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by moron:
you speak with the rare authority of dual citizenship

While I've lived in the US for a decade, and visited most parts of the country (both business and pleasure), I'm not a citizen. I Am Canadian.

The gigantic multinantional I work for paid a butt-load of money to get me green-carded under the "highly skilled" clause. While the urge to infinitesimally affect American politics exists, I refuse to get dual citizenship. There is a portion of getting an American citizenship where I would need to swear to renounce Canadian loyalties, and while it is functionally meaningless I still won't do it.

quote:
if you had to choose between your Motherland and your adopted one, which would it be?
I like Canada better in every way. Probably largely because of patriotic bias, because I'm human. Pretty much everybody is unreasonable when it comes to national affiliation, and it's fucking stupid to assume we might be exempt ourselves.

Except that I'm not so closed-minded that I needlessly limit myself. I freaking love my job, and there's pitifully few like it in places I actually want to live (note: I like Portland quite a lot). If I hadn't wanted to be within driving distance of my father while he was (slowly) dying, I might be in Tokyo or Stuttgart or Woking now.

Which is not to say that I think the United States of America isn't pretty great. Because I think it is. But it's possible I can only afford that view because I'm a moderately affluent white male in a progressive region.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
On another point that the USesn't do well ... I heard on the BBC news last night that the US Secretary of State has said that North Korea is not allowed to have nuclear missiles. Who does he think he is to make such pronouncements? Arrogance of the first order!

Do you know what a "pronouncement" is? He was repeating what the nuclear non-proliferation treaty has said. He wasn't inventing some new rule on his own behalf.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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moron
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# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
There is a portion of getting an American citizenship where I would need to swear to renounce Canadian loyalties, and while it is functionally meaningless I still won't do it.

Well, open-eyed patriotism is hardly a sin.

quote:
But it's possible I can only afford that view because I'm a moderately affluent white male in a progressive region.
You can also have a similar view if you're merely a striving to be moderately affluent white male in a less than progressive region.

[Biased]


[and WHO would have ever thought you lot would coax 4000 posts out of me [Eek!] ]

[ 17. April 2013, 15:31: Message edited by: moron ]

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RooK

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# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by moron:
You can also have a similar view if you're merely a striving to be moderately affluent white male in a less than progressive region.

For the set of "you" meaning to generalize, your statement is probably correct. For the set of "you" meaning "RooK", the correctness is less probable.

While I do enjoy my mostly-alpha status these days, much of my formative days in the Canuckistanni hinterland was as an omega. How a population treats its omegas holds much sway over my opinion of that population.

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Hawk

Semi-social raptor
# 14289

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Not that we have any right to be proud of the way we treated the native Americans once we were on our own, but the dreadful policies were a continuation of the policies put in place when we were English colonies. For that matter, there is no reason to believe the the 19th century would have been any better for native tribes if we had NOT become independent.

There was always a tension between what the local colonist settlers wanted (more land to the West) and the official policy of the British government (usually trade with the natives to make money and protect these sources of revenue - in this case the lucrative fur trade). But I think the British government would have restrained the worst excesses of the genocide if they'd still been in charge. You can see their approach in the Proclamation of 1763, which barred colonial migration west of the Appalachians, and they posted soldiers along the frontier to enforce this decree.

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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
There was always a tension between what the local colonist settlers wanted (more land to the West) and the official policy of the British government (usually trade with the natives to make money and protect these sources of revenue - in this case the lucrative fur trade). But I think the British government would have restrained the worst excesses of the genocide if they'd still been in charge. You can see their approach in the Proclamation of 1763, which barred colonial migration west of the Appalachians, and they posted soldiers along the frontier to enforce this decree.

Like they did in Canada and Australia?

Honestly, you would think the UK would have gotten over its white man's burden, enlightened colonizer complex by now.
[Roll Eyes]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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How does a comment about policies of 1763 mean that we are still imbued with the Empire spirit? Might just as well say that everyone in America believes in witches because of the Puritans of Salem.

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It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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Please guys, while we have low standards in Hell, we really don't want a Pond War. They always turn out unhappily, like marching on Moscow.

FWIW, it's wrong to treat the pre-Revolutionary colonies as a whole. Some were founded for trade, some for religious freedom. They were created for a variety of purposes and that is reflected in their history.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
How does a comment about policies of 1763 mean that we are still imbued with the Empire spirit? Might just as well say that everyone in America believes in witches because of the Puritans of Salem.

No, Zach's point (and I happen to think that in this case it's a damn good one) is about the claim that if the British had stayed in charge, things would have turned out better.

Here in Australia the British authorities simply decided that no-one owned the land. There was just this bunch of funny dark bipeds roaming across it. That ain't evidence of the British doing it better.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged



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