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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Obama the sexist
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Methinks the deano doth protest too much.
The habitual user of hyperbole (I guess that's one way of looking at it, kinder than merely seeing provocation) goes off the deep end when someone else makes a little use of hyperbole.
Plank out of eye time, deano. Hyperbole is a game anyone can play. You don't have a corner on that market.
Hypocrisy even more than hyperbole. deano's posts indicate an utter lack of a meaningful morality.
Yeah, where was all this feminist outrage when people were sneering that Hilary needed a facelift?
{Thread vertigo]
[ 08. April 2013, 02:55: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
He's almost as bad as Clinton!
Obama-sex-rat
How anyone can look at themselves in a mirror if they voted for this mysogenist, I just don't know. How can they sleep at. night knowing they out such a man in the White House?
President "hope for the future" is a sexist. Who new the left produced such people. I thought it was only us Nazi's who said that sort of thing.
[
deano, I call bullshit.
You're not upset with Obama because of his sexism (benevolent or otherwise); you're upset with him because you disagree with his politics. That would be fair enough, if you would just say so and give substantive reasons for your disagreement, but here you're attacking him for something you wouldn't even notice if Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan said it.
Which is basically Rush Limbaugh-style dickheadery of the lowest sort. Did you think that would somehow slip under the radar?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
It's a gaffe. It was inappropriate. It was almost certainly unintentional and in the grand scheme of things it's really no big deal. In fact, it would be no kind of issue at all if we lived in a world in which female politicians weren't constantly evaluated and criticised on the basis of their looks - in that world, it'd just be another nice thing to say. To be honest, I'm amazed at how few gaffes Obama has managed to make over the course of his presidency. Having people record and scrutinise every last word you say must be really tough.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Did you think that would somehow slip under the radar?
No. He thought it would somehow wind people up.
He was right.
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I don't think it's even a left-right issue - there is plenty of sexism in left wing circles, in the LGBTQ community and elsewhere. In the early days of gay liberation, the lesbians were expected to make the tea for the gay men!
I agree with Josephine and Kelly - Obama made a mistake and apologised, without diminishing the weightiness of the issue. Benevolent sexism is a real issue for women.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Did you think that would somehow slip under the radar?
No. He thought it would somehow wind people up.
He was right.
Actually, I am kind of proud of of our ability to address the complexities of this situation while he bounces around in the background and honks a klaxon horn at us.
Just keep stepping over him. It's more fun than dealing with him.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
It's a gaffe.
Sums it up nicely.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Kelly! Shame on you comparing deano to a clown!
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Denigrates clowns, it does. Wouldn't even deride a mime with such a comparison.
there, there Ariston. Mean, nasty Kelly did not mean it...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Didn't think. Sorry.
What I meant was, he uses the klaxon horn without ourpose, and he irritates the true clowns who actually perform and entertain.
(Better? I definitely don't want to appear to be slacking in my duties as part of Team Ariston ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(I accidentally typed "Team Aniston" at first.
Which I found really, really funny. )
[ 09. April 2013, 17:24: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
deano can be easily misinterpreted, as he does an excellent imitation of the mating call of the Trollus blowhardus.
But truly, I think he is simply attempting to save money on his Viagra prescription.
( I strongly suspect he typed the OP with one hand)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
deano can be easily misinterpreted, as he does an excellent imitation of the mating call of the Trollus blowhardus.
But truly, I think he is simply attempting to save money on his Viagra prescription.
( I strongly suspect he typed the OP with one hand)
He'd have to, as the first finger of the other hand would be up on the screen helping him read.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
It's not possible to criticize or dislike Obamacare - because if you do it automatically makes you a racist and a homophobe.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It's not possible to criticize or dislike Obamacare - because if you do it automatically makes you a racist and a homophobe.
Someone just back from the pub?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
[If Deano was a troll you guys would have fed him into morbid obesity by now.]
My father's generation was rampant with benevolent sexism, their little gals just didn't need to worry their pretty little heads about anything like taxes or politics.
I've experienced plenty of it, but I don't think Obama's statement fits the benevolent sexism definition: "A set of interrelated attitudes toward women that are sexist in terms of viewing women stereotypically and in restricted roles but that are subjectively positive in feeling tone."
There is nothing stereotypical or restricted about the role of attorney general. There is all kinds of acknowledgment of and respect for her competence and intelligence in the reality that she has been awarded that position. Mentioning that she is good looking on top of all that doesn't seem like "benevolent sexism" to me because it lacks any underlying motivation of keeping her down.
Saying "Judy doesn't need to go to college because she's so pretty she'll be married before she's twenty," is benevolent sexism. ISTM, saying she's the person best qualified to run the company and good looking too," is not.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It's not possible to criticize or dislike Obamacare - because if you do it automatically makes you a racist and a homophobe.
And this is the standard of reasoning I expect from you.
On the other hand if you think the American system before Obamacare is worse than Obamacare rather than the single most wasteful and useless healthcare system in the world unless you are absolutely loaded you are both an economic illiterate and someone with very little compassion.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
There is nothing stereotypical or restricted about the role of attorney general. There is all kinds of acknowledgment of and respect for her competence and intelligence in the reality that she has been awarded that position. Mentioning that she is good looking on top of all that doesn't seem like "benevolent sexism" to me because it lacks any underlying motivation of keeping her down.
Saying "Judy doesn't need to go to college because she's so pretty she'll be married before she's twenty," is benevolent sexism. ISTM, saying she's the person best qualified to run the company and good looking too," is not.
this.
all of it. exactly my thoughts, only well articulated when I couldn't do it. Thanks, Twilight.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
"Good looking" maybe,-- even "very good looking", OK-- but "best looking?" --sorry, no. It adds an element of competition between her and all her female colleagues. And do we really need more of that?
[ 14. April 2013, 19:58: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Saying "Judy doesn't need to go to college because she's so pretty she'll be married before she's twenty," is benevolent sexism. ISTM, saying she's the person best qualified to run the company and good looking too," is not.
I am uncomfortable with the comment because her looks just aren't relevant to how she performs as Attorney General. I'll agree that it's not nearly as egregious as the "you don't need to work hard because you've got breasts" type of comment, but I don't think Obama would have made a comment about how attractive a male Attorney General was.
There is a fairly large school of thought that says that men in a professional setting basically have to shower, whereas women need to have immaculate hair, just the right amount of makeup, be slim and reasonably attractive. That's sexist, and referring to a woman's attractiveness in a professional context feeds in to that.
[ 14. April 2013, 19:48: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
"good looking" maybe,-- even "very good looking", OK-- but "best looking?" --sorry, no. It adds an element of competition between her and all her female colleagues. And do we really need more of that?
eh. only for people who get sucked into that. it's a compliment from a heterosexual male and purely subjective. the other things he said about her he may be especially qualified to state with some sort of authority, but the last part was strictly from the authority of a straight dude who appreciates an attractive woman.
which means it's pretty meaningless. Now, sure, if the many other female attorney generals out there think they won't have "made it" unless Obama thinks they're hot, then it could cause them to get all neurotic. but I say that's their problem. He's not exactly been appointed the final authority on the "best" of the pretty woman. He's just this guy, you know.
We, as the female half of the species, need to get the fuck over it. Stop looking for insult when there is none. We have gotten so collectively neurotic about physical appearance that when someone says we're good looking, we immediately wonder what the hell they meant by that. it's stupid.
so this attorney general is good looking. frankly, if people hadn't gotten so worked up about it, no one would remember that part because it was an essentially meaningless compliment tacked on to the other things he said which actually meant something. it's the hysteria that is giving this any weight at all.
and it's a double standard. I think Obama is the "best" looking president since Kennedy. given the right circumstances, I'd be all over that boy. does saying that reduce him, and all men by extension, into a piece of meat? hell no. is anyone saying he really got the job because of his looks? no one with any credibility. That happens to women, but by screeching about it every time a successful woman is noted for her beauty, we are the ones who are reducing her to her physical appearance. We are the ones minimizing her accomplishments.
We are the ones allowing this double standard to continue.
My boss is an extremely bright woman who is very skookum where business is concerned. She's the hardest working woman I've ever met (and that's saying something). she's also incredibly kind - which is rarer in the business world. and to top it off, she's funny as shit. I adore her.
She's also HOT. like, men lose their words when she is around. hell, so do a number of women. Now, when I'm at work and every third new guy in town is asking me if my boss is single, I could get all competitive and feel hideous by comparison and get grumpy that she's not appreciated for her skills, but that's pointless. Human have eyeballs and we see the outer packaging first. It's all those other things that actually matter. So when some guy comes into the bar and says, "Wow, M is incredibly good looking!" I just agree. 'cause it's true. if the opportunity arrises, I might also point out that she's a lot more than that. But it doesn't matter; if they stick around they'll figure that out for themselves.
meanwhile, rather than hating her for her seeming perfection or finding all my faults, I embrace her friendship and love all those things about her that make her precious to me. (and she is. she's my boss but we've also been friends since 4th grade)
so with this attorney general, I can choose to take it as "it's all about her looks and I'll never measure up!" or, like Obama, I can think, "go girl! you're all that AND a bag of chips!" and celebrate her.
We're humans. we're never going to be blind to attraction. I sure as hell won't. Nor do I want people afraid to compliment me when I have one of those rare days where I actually manage to dress like an adult woman and I look good.
Tell me when I look nice! but also tell me when you think I've done well, am fucking brilliant, helped you feel better, made you laugh, or had some great insight. I'll take it all, thanks.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
He's not exactly been appointed the final authority on the "best" of the pretty woman. He's just this guy, you know.
That would be my point.
[ 14. April 2013, 20:26: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
He's not exactly been appointed the final authority on the "best" of the pretty woman. He's just this guy, you know.
That would be my point.
and so?
are you afraid people will think he is some sort of authority? that's their problem. Are you offended he used his position of power to state the bleedin' obvious? He's hardly the first. plus, he's a human. he opens his mouth, shit comes out. just like the rest of us. He complimented her, in a way that wasn't condescending or rapey. Let's allow him to be a nice guy who offered an unsolicited compliment. (I mean, c'mon, the rest probably were solicited. that was probably the only genuine thing that came out of his mouth)
And, let's allow her to accept a real compliment with grace and not have to feel embarrassed or ashamed because she happens to not be a horse. All this kerfluffle not only makes us as a society look as shallow as a kiddie pool, but also must be making her want to hide under a rock. let's let it the fuck go, shall we?
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Deputy Verger
Shipmate
# 15876
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Posted
quote:
Orginally posted by Comet
Tell me when I look nice! but also tell me when you think I've done well, am fucking brilliant, helped you feel better, made you laugh, or had some great insight. I'll take it all, thanks.
You are fucking brilliant. Well said, all of it.
Comet for President! And (you heard it here first) she'd be the best-looking female president y'all ever had.
Posts: 475 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2010
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
(crossposted - DV, nobody wants that. believe me. if people find this offensive from a president, wait 'til they get a load of me!)
and furthermore - shit like this is going to cause people all over the place to be afraid of making an honest compliment. Some already are. I have had people compliment me on my looks, my outfit, my hair, whatever - and then later apologize as if they'd said something offensive. what the fuck is with that? when did an honest compliment meant in the best possible way turn into an insult? I mean, sure, if you treat a woman (or anyone) as if they're on display in the butcher's meat case, "Great tits, baby!" then that's just rucking fude. But since when does someone have to feel the need to apologize for doing the kindness of a polite compliment?
jaysus we're going to Peecee ourselves to death.
(went back to edit a stupid typo because I CAN)
[ 14. April 2013, 21:36: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
He was talking in his capacity as President? it was a tiny gaffe, I already said, but it's still a gaffe.
And since plenty of men are articulating mild discomfort at the same thing, I am going to give myself permission not to write it off as simple female neurosis.
And also, the President himself understood the dynamics well enough to address it-- he doesn't seem the type that would do something like that just to appease a bunch of insecure women.
Yeah, maybe the women in question blew it off but--and I am trying to put myself in the position of a man in that situation-- why take the chance? Why run the risk of affecting mutual rapport in a situation that comes ready-made fraught with challenges?
Being "the best" can be lonely. I thank men in power would do well to find ways to encourage female solidarity. Just that. it's not a burning rage thing, it's a fine-tuning thing.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Catrine
Shipmate
# 9811
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Tell me when I look nice! but also tell me when you think I've done well, am fucking brilliant, helped you feel better, made you laugh, or had some great insight. I'll take it all, thanks.
Amen. Compliments are fine. "Best" if someone calls me the best at something that's pretty fine with me. [sorry a little nice for hell] I happen to think that people who are skilled at things (including being decent human beings), tend to be better looking than hateful people who hide their lights really under their bushells [/sorry a little nice for hell] but Obama "Sex-rat"? Someone needs to look up definitions of sex.
Posts: 2614 | From: Midlands | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Catrine:
but Obama "Sex-rat"? Someone needs to look up definitions of sex.
ITA with that. Clinton would be the Sex Rat.
Watering down Obama's apology does not honor it, though. IMO. I think he did good.
[ 14. April 2013, 21:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
He was talking in his capacity as President? it was a tiny gaffe, I already said, but it's still a gaffe.
I disagree. But that's cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And since plenty of men are articulating mild discomfort at the same thing, I am going to give myself permission not to write it off as simple female neurosis.
when you say "female neurosis" are you implying that I'm saying women, generally, are neurotic? that's horseshit. I'm saying our society, generally, feeds into our insecurities and can lead to neurosis. it may be societal, but it's also very personal; and it sure as fuck isn't genetic. I deny it. and see? still female. I'm not playing the "hysteria" game here. I'm saying that we, as a society (i.e. everyone, male and female both) and specifically as the XX members of this society, need to get our heads out of our collective asses.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Being "the best" can be lonely. I thank men in power would do well to find ways to encourage female solidarity. Just that. it's not a burning rage thing, it's a fine-tuning thing.
well sure - encourage, support, etc. But it's rather up to us, isn't it?
if saying "best" immediately makes a bunch of women (who likely have never even been seen by this guy) feel like second best, they need to work that out for themselves.
couple of things going on here - can someone tell me how many female attorneys general we have in this country? and further, how many our president has actually met? Because I see a whole other dynamic going on here - guys insult each other as a camaraderie thing. there's this running assumption that to other straight men, all men are ugly compared to all women. I can easily see Obama seeing other AGs as dudes, and by default she is the "best" looking because the rest are men and therefore ugly.
it's how men talk to each other. common as spit.
another thing, and this is my personal take. I had only vaguely heard of this senator from Chicago years ago when he guested on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me"*. At some event he had said something to a reporter who had then made a moment out of it by saying the senator had embarrassed him in front of a girl he was trying to impress. Obama then called the guy up and said something along the lines of, "hey man, sorry to mess up your game."
Now, this could easily be ripped to shreds. first off, it was a publicity stunt - otherwise, why record it? secondly, "your game" could be taken as insulting to the woman, I suppose. Thirdly, the guy was obviously a whiner and Obama was obviously having some fun with it. How condescending!
But my take on it? he's a real man. he can speak unscripted and sounds like someone who is not an automaton. he has a goddamn sense of humor (saints be praised!) and isn't afraid to let it show. he doesn't have a stick up his ass. and, while this guy was being a whiney little ass and playing for publicity and no apology was actually needed, he got one anyway. No matter how staged. I LOVE people who have managed to come to the glaringly obvious conclusion that apologizing doesn't fucking hurt.
so I decided then that I like Obama's realness and humanity. His policies? not always so much. But I suspect he's a guy I could have a beer with and talk straight to and would probably have a good laugh with. So I like the guy. and in that, I see this non-incident in the most positive light on his motives. 'cause I think he's just a good guy, at the end of the day. He's not a dickhead. And so I'm willing to assume that his motivations were neither sexist nor malicious.
*non-yanks - a comedy news quiz on NPR not dissimilar to BBC4's News Quiz or Now Show.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
But my take on it? he's a real man. he can speak unscripted and sounds like someone who is not an automaton. he has a goddamn sense of humor (saints be praised!) and isn't afraid to let it show. he doesn't have a stick up his ass. and, while this guy was being a whiney little ass and playing for publicity and no apology was actually needed, he got one anyway. No matter how staged. I LOVE people who have managed to come to the glaringly obvious conclusion that apologizing doesn't fucking hurt.
so I decided then that I like Obama's realness and humanity. His policies? not always so much. But I suspect he's a guy I could have a beer with and talk straight to and would probably have a good laugh with. So I like the guy. and in that, I see this non-incident in the most positive light on his motives. 'cause I think he's just a good guy, at the end of the day. He's not a dickhead. And so I'm willing to assume that his motivations were neither sexist nor malicious.
*non-yanks - a comedy news quiz on NPR not dissimilar to BBC4's News Quiz or Now Show.
First of all, of topic a bit, I was going to PM this, but hell with it-- FUCK YEAH! This is the kind of shit that makes Hell really worth reading! Fuck that namby-pamby gumball troll shit, two awesome women throwing down? Hold on to your fucking hats!
OK, back to the event...
I chose the word neurotic because ..well in reading the kid of assessments you were providing about (basically) any women who took issue with the situation seemed to imply that. It's their hang up, end of.
Again, my respect grew for Obama because he chose not to leave it at that. Again, I think it waters down that stand he took to say, "And anyway, he really didn't NEED to apologize." Obviously he though he did. I presume he gave the matter serious thought and wasn't just "spinning"
I like him, too, I think he's hot, too. And I don't think-- indeed, all along I ave been saying quite the opposite-- that he was being a dickhead or a malicious sexist.But I also think he's very good art taking on board other people's points of view-- it's been one of his strengths. I think he proved himself with this.
And I repeat-- while I totally, TOTALLY agree with you that we women need to dig in and support each other-- you and I have shared enough war stories for me to say "I know you know what I mean"-- it does really help when a man in a position of power chimes in with his support as well.
That's all.
And that's what he did.
[ 14. April 2013, 21:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Why run the risk of affecting mutual rapport in a situation that comes ready-made fraught with challenges?
this is a side note and not directed to Kelly at all; but, WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH THIS? half of our population are women. Some are bound to be our bosses and our employees and the contractors who fix our roofs and all sorts of business relationships. And just like the male of the species some will be good at it and some will not.
Good lord what a rat's nest we create for ourselves in this world. Fuck it all. I want to move to a cabin in the woods and commune with the song birds and grow tomatoes and shoot all trespassers.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, but the author nailed it, right? ![[Frown]](frown.gif) That's some ugly shit.
My mom was a personnel director, and she used to love to sneer, "Oh I hate working for a woman." I finally said to her, "Do you think your staff said that about you?"
[ 14. April 2013, 21:48: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
[ And just like the male of the species some will be good at it and some will not.
OK, I'm gonna address this, as I do think it pertains in some way to the conversation, if not to the White House staff, necessarily, to women in business at large, and therefore is part of my point:
As per the article, the sense I get is that, when faced with a new boss, there is a baseline of assumed competency that is given him that he then has to disprove, if he is indeed unfit. With women it is exactly the opposite. And other women seem to be giving it to them the hardest.
I can testify working in a female-dominated field-- a lot of places are staffed with under-educated, under-stimulated women (meaning: they are not given the educational opportunities and career support that the kind of intelligent, creative people attracted to childcare work deserve, and there resulting frustration of having a load of talent that is not being used to optimum drives them to pretty much cannibalize each other, to pecking-order themselves to death. Not all centers, but enough for me to notice a trend.
So picture one of those women-- barely enough cash to scrape together a decent working wardrobe, nowhere near enough money to get those perfecting facials or hair treatments or anything more than the cheap crap makeup that slides off your face right away (and doing the kid of work where, if you are really doing your job, you are supposed to get messy anyway)-- she's not even getting recognized on merit in her dysfunctional little work venue(assuming it's like the one in the article), now she has to think about getting her look perfect? Yeesh.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
First of all, of topic a bit, I was going to PM this, but hell with it-- FUCK YEAH! This is the kind of shit that makes Hell really worth reading! Fuck that namby-pamby gumball troll shit, two awesome women throwing down? Hold on to your fucking hats!
OK, back to the event...
and on that note... I got nothin'. no disagreement at the moment. We'll have to find something better to scrap about.
What's your feeling on Marvel vs DC? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I chose the word neurotic because ..well in reading the kid of assessments you were providing about (basically) any women who took issue with the situation seemed to imply that. It's their hang up, end of.
I went back and read what I wrote and I see where it could be taken that way. I get a good rant on, I'm known to generalize just a tad. Totally not what I meant. my bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Again, my respect grew for Obama because he chose not to leave it at that. Again, I think it waters down that stand he took to say, "And anyway, he really didn't NEED to apologize." Obviously he though he did. I presume he gave the matter serious thought and wasn't just "spinning"
[...]
But I also think he's very good art taking on board other people's points of view-- it's been one of his strengths. I think he proved himself with this.
and THAT, my friends, is why he is president and I'm not. Presidential types see when an apology is the best route, where I'd be the one to say, "get the fuck over yourselves!"
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And I repeat-- while I totally, TOTALLY agree with you that we women need to dig in and support each other-- you and I have shared enough war stories for me to say "I know you know what I mean"-- it does really help when a man in a position of power chimes in with his support as well.
I'd say it doesn't hurt, but at the end of the day if we're trying for women holding themselves up and making it right within our community, then it matters fuck all what the men say. it's up to us. At some point, we need to quit caring what the men think at all.
(settle in children, it's story time)
My mom was very involved in the civil rights movement in the Bay Area in the 60s. She was your stereotypical 60s hippie - white child of privilege who was using her first amendment rights to try and fix some shit. good on her.
She volunteered at some community center in SF, teaching literacy and such. there were some civil rights gatherings and she attended, raising her pale, freckled fist with the rest.
One day one of the local leaders said to her, "Go home, honky. This ain't your fight." At first she was hurt and offended and felt all marginalized. And then she realized the guy was right. The people in that community needed to do it themselves. otherwise, it would never work. if you need outside verification (no matter how benign) to declare your equality, then you undercut your own argument.
so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.
Fuckin' A.
(Still, respect to the guys who try.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
What's your feeling on Marvel vs DC?
Fantagraphics,I'm afraid.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.
I think if someone's being an asshole, you need to tell him to stop - whether or not you're the target of his assholitude, and whether his particular brand of ass is sexist, racist, or whatever else-ist.
When it comes to leading the fight against societal assholery, I suspect that Mr. "Honky go Home" had a point.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well, yeah and in terms of people in positions of changing policy, I am sure we expect them to speak out about assholery, whatever background they come from.
Malcolm X didn't want white folk joining Nation of Islam, but he sure had a thing or two to say to Truman.
[ 14. April 2013, 22:35: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
As per the article, the sense I get is that, when faced with a new boss, there is a baseline of assumed competency that is given him that he then has to disprove, if he is indeed unfit. With women it is exactly the opposite. And other women seem to be giving it to them the hardest.
I have not found this to be my experience, exactly. I first was in a position of management when I was 22. I came across some of what you say, but I found the issue to be a lot more about my age and their lack of belief in my experience. Frankly, I'd probably feel the same way if I found myself with a 22 year old boss of either gender.
I've mostly worked in male-dominated fields (until recently). my biggest challenge has not been a distrust/lack of faith because of my gender, but the simple "hey baby" routine. What would probably be considered sexual harassment in the rest of the world but I always just handled it in my own very special style.
I have had bosses who were complete douchebags, for sure. IME, this was because in that particular profession I was very good, and went from rookie to kicking ass and winning awards in less than a year. it was an innate talent thing, something I wasn't even aware of before hand. A few bosses got jealous as I essentially flew past them.
in really looking back and analyzing it, I think my youth and gender if anything helped my case. if I'd been a guy, at least one of them would probably have roared and tried to kick my ass. because I was a woman I think he really had no idea how to handle his sense of inadequacy.
and that's another point. We need to be ready for the douchebags if we want real equality. So, if this particular boss was truly gender-blind, he probably should have tried to take a swing at me just as he would have with a male subordinate who made him feel inferior. Not that I couldn't have handled that! But I benefited if anything from his preconceived notions on gender.
I've also been the target of female-on-female bullying in the work place. But honestly, my being female was secondary - her issue was this very convoluted parenting jealousy that was so unbelievably fucked up. She was sexist in the name of her kids. basically, she hated me because my daughter is more beautiful and successful than her similarly aged daughter in her eyes. I think her daughter is lovely.
I still say that was one of the most bizarre situations ever.
but now I'm babbling. the point to all this is I guess that I have not seen this woman vs woman work dynamic, but I'm also in a very non-mainstream part of the world so I have no credible experience in that regard.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I've also been the target of female-on-female bullying in the work place. But honestly, my being female was secondary - her issue was this very convoluted parenting jealousy that was so unbelievably fucked up. She was sexist in the name of her kids. basically, she hated me because my daughter is more beautiful and successful than her similarly aged daughter in her eyes. I think her daughter is lovely.
This doesn't sound like Mommy Wars to you? (Which is indeed a female competition thing. And good for you for not buying in.)
I will add, though, that in situations where the sexes seem balanced-- for me, and sport oriented afterschool care I worked at that was basically half-and half , and the TV station I volunteer at which is mostly guys but a healthy number of women-- this crap seems to really die down. Maybe having a concrete example in front of you that everyone is capable of doing the same job knocks it out.
Or maybe working in Guy World helps you appreciate women more.
[ 14. April 2013, 22:43: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, yeah and in terms of people in positions of changing policy, I am sure we expect them to speak out about assholery, whatever background they come from.
Malcolm X didn't want white folk joining Nation of Islam, but he sure had a thing or two to say to Truman.
somewhat different to what I'm saying, though. The men in power needed to give us the vote, once upon a time. it was a bunch of white people who decided to free the slaves. It has to start somewhere. But I believe we're already there. our step-up has been given, the rest is up to us.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
What's your feeling on Marvel vs DC?
Fantagraphics,I'm afraid.
Respect! Still, I'm a marvel girl all the way. though I did decide to give a little love to Image back in the 90s and my fondness holds.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
She volunteered at some community center in SF, teaching literacy and such. there were some civil rights gatherings and she attended, raising her pale, freckled fist with the rest.
One day one of the local leaders said to her, "Go home, honky. This ain't your fight." At first she was hurt and offended and felt all marginalized. And then she realized the guy was right. The people in that community needed to do it themselves. otherwise, it would never work. if you need outside verification (no matter how benign) to declare your equality, then you undercut your own argument.
so I feel like saying, hey brothers - support us by not making things worse. otherwise, we got this.
See, but I disagree. It isn't your fight vs. my fight. It isn't her fight vs. his fight. It is our fight, every damn bit of it. White people supporting Black rights, straight people supporting gay rights, they are important. As long as we see us vs. them, them still aren't equal. Yes, the afflicted community needs to stand, but not standing alone helps.
The guy in your example was a prick. Your mom is way cool in my book.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
"The only us versus them should be decent people versus indecent people." --Alex Bennett.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Really, I think who are holding Obama to a higher standard are themselves rather racist.
Shortly after Obama became president you started to see Tea Party people picturing him with a bone in his nose.
I started seeing posts of people who complained all Obama liked to do is PARTY ON.
Then there is the ongoing comments about him being chained to the teleprompter.
Interesting how Southern Republicans have moved to stop everything Obama has proposed even if the proposals first came from the Republican side in the first place.
A lot of Republicans fell because of their sexist comments in the last election, now this is a chance to strike back. Obama, btw, apologized about the remarks, many of the Republicans still do not think they said anything wrong.
No matter what Obama says or does it is wrong because he is black--well, half black.
You can really see this when people say they disagree with Obama's policies; but, when challenged, they cannot defend their position.
This weekend a new movie was released about Jackie Robinson "42". Go see it. I think it shows why some whites still cannot get over having black people in leading roles.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
This doesn't sound like Mommy Wars to you? (Which is indeed a female competition thing. And good for you for not buying in.)
okay, but it's not endemic of some societal dysfunction. it's one really fucked up person who is shortchanging her kids and expressing her issues by trying to make me miserable. Bullying is not a gender issue, and assholes come in all shapes and sizes.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
First of all, of topic a bit, I was going to PM this, but hell with it-- FUCK YEAH! This is the kind of shit that makes Hell really worth reading! Fuck that namby-pamby gumball troll shit, two awesome women throwing down? Hold on to your fucking hats!
*Goes back to bed*
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
OK, you see there? You see how we are marginalized?
(Have a nice wank, orf.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
See, but I disagree. It isn't your fight vs. my fight. It isn't her fight vs. his fight. It is our fight, every damn bit of it. White people supporting Black rights, straight people supporting gay rights, they are important. As long as we see us vs. them, them still aren't equal. Yes, the afflicted community needs to stand, but not standing alone helps.
The guy in your example was a prick.
he was certainly rude, but I don't think he was wrong.
a dear friend of mine is black. When he first moved here, he came across some racism. apparently it was nothing compared to what he'd come across growing up in the south, but it was something. the rest of us white folks could defend him all the day long, and it does something. but what really worked was when he got out there in the community, started taking care of local troubled kids, and got to know people. I can shout that he's a good guy all I want, but he's the only one who could prove it. And he did.
Same goes for homosexuals. I can defend the rights of my homosexual friends all I like, but they are the only ones who can BE the proof that the stereotypes are wrong. and that's how change happens. Hell yes, I'd vote for marriage equality and all the rest - but for society to get the fuck over their fears and biases, they need to SEE the truth. Just like I couldn't prove that not all black men are dangerous, I also can't prove that not all homosexuals are perverts.
I CAN, however, LIVE the proof that women deserve their place at the top no matter their appearance or anything else. and I do. and will.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Your mom is way cool in my book.
you have no idea. she's amazing.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Bullying is not a gender issue, and assholes come in all shapes and sizes.
Bullies reach for any tool they can, and if gender is one, they will use it. That might not apply to your particular story-- in fact, I'm seeing why it doesn't-- but bullying in general can certainly be a gender issue.
Adn I'm kind of with lilbuddha in that sense-- if the tool is available, then it does help if anyone-- gender notwithstanding-- tries to take that tool away.
I totally hear what you are saying about your friend, but maybe there is a reason he moved to your town in the first place. Maybe he knew he would have some sort of chance to prove himself at all.
[ 14. April 2013, 23:24: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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