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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mental Health according to Indifferently
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
In fact, if you're dealing with a kid who regularly goes apeshit for no apparent reason, it would be criminally irresponsible not to raise with social services the idea that there might - just possibly - be some weird shit going on in their home.
HA HA HA HA HA ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Reasons my child has gone absolutely full-body screaming apeshit include:
- a small piece of food fell from plate to floor
- sudden loud noise
- change of route due to construction detour
- trying on shoes at a shoe store
- and much, much more! You'd better call CFS on me!
Josephine was absolutely right: "If you're a mom, you know: Whatever the child's problem is, it's all your fault."
Qlib, I mentioned your comment to the other Leaf, who suggests for your benefit: "When it comes to judging the children of strangers, shut the fuck up, because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Attributing a child's behavior to poor parenting is a cop-out. It's generally applied by people without kids, or people who have stepford kids.
Not always. In fact, at the extreme end of the spectrum it's more often the case than not.
1. Define "extreme end of the spectrum" in such a way that this is not a tautology;
2. Prove it by peer-reviewed articles.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
In fact, if you're dealing with a kid who regularly goes apeshit for no apparent reason, it would be criminally irresponsible not to raise with social services the idea that there might - just possibly - be some weird shit going on in their home.
As I said upthread:
quote:
if you're a mom, you know: Whatever the child's problem is, it's all your fault.
I'm not disagreeing with the idea that a chaotic and violent home is likely to cause a child to have significant behavioral problems at school. I'm disagreeing with the assumption that, because one thing can cause a problem, you can assume that any time you see that problem, it comes from the same cause.
Poison ivy is likely to cause a terrible rash. But you can't extrapolate from that and conclude that every child with a rash has poison ivy. There are loads of other things that can cause a rash, and you need to find out what the problem is, and not just slather on calamine lotion.
It seems entirely sensible to correctly identify the cause of any problem, and then apply the appropriate treatment. Is there anyone who can seriously disagree with that? Oh, yes ... I forgot; if you rule out the existence of mental health problems then in a large number of cases you are going to have to find another 'cause' - which would then result in an inappropriate treatment.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To pick nits, no drug works the same on everyone, even within a certain disorder or condition.
Singling out Ritalin was perhaps not the best example. The reality remains that medicating behaviour problems does occur. Ascribing behaviour to the disorder de jour instead of poor parenting* is more common than should be.
*Or admitting that "precious darling" is just a little shit. Or both.
Attributing a child's behavior to poor parenting is a cop-out. It's generally applied by people without kids, or people who have stepford kids.
sigh
How is what I said, especially in context of my other comments on this thread, a cop-out?
Behaviour is a combination of nature and nurture in the vast majority of people. It will sometimes skew more towards one or the other.
It is true that some will fail to recognise a disorder and blame the behaviour on parenting.
It is true that siblings will exhibit different behaviours despite the parents efforts to treat them equally.
It is true that a disorder will be blamed for some children's behaviours despite there being no evidence of said disorder.
It is true that both behaviour issues and disorders will be ignored by parents.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
"When it comes to judging the children of strangers, shut the fuck up, because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."
This.
If you see a kid screaming and crying in the street it could be a simple temper tantrum (see my son aged three being carried the length of Scarborough prom screaming so loudly that every eye turned to look at him) or it could be an ASD child who has become overloaded and can't process the information just at that moment. Or it could be any number of other reasons.
The onlookers may smile in empathy (they have had toddlers themselves etc) or they may think 'tut tut, no child of mine would ever do that' either way we can't control their thoughts. Ignore them.
[ 27. April 2013, 07:56: Message edited by: Boogie ]
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Any parent of young children will identify with the fact that you can be tutted at one minute, and complimented on your child's lovely behaviour the next. Children are that unpredictable!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
In fact, if you're dealing with a kid who regularly goes apeshit for no apparent reason, it would be criminally irresponsible not to raise with social services the idea that there might - just possibly - be some weird shit going on in their home.
HA HA HA HA HA
Reasons my child has gone absolutely full-body screaming apeshit include:
- a small piece of food fell from plate to floor
- sudden loud noise
- change of route due to construction detour
- trying on shoes at a shoe store
- and much, much more! You'd better call CFS on me!
I don't know what age your child is, but I don't think we're talking about the same things. I wasn't talking about toddlers - anybody knows that toddlers can go apeshit about anything - or children with ASD (ditto). I'm talking about school age, especially secondary-school age, children with no other observable disorders (such as ASD or a learning difficulty).
In the context of ADHD, this is often a label pinned on children when in fact it is the family that is disordered. That's not to say that there aren't genuine cases of ADHD but I would like to think that nobody would 'diagnose' ADHD in a child without taking a long hard look at the family. And, yes, I recognise that a case of genuine ADHD (whatever it is) can put huge stresses and strains on a family to the extent that it may be difficult to disentangle. As I said upthread, there has been some interesting research on adopted children somehow recreating in their adoptive family patterns that had been observed in (and probably blamed on) their birth family.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It seems entirely sensible to correctly identify the cause of any problem, and then apply the appropriate treatment.
Evidence-based problem solving. I like it!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
As I said upthread, there has been some interesting research on adopted children somehow recreating in their adoptive family patterns that had been observed in (and probably blamed on) their birth family.
This negates your whole thesis, as it is evidence that the problem is the child, not the family.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
As I said upthread, there has been some interesting research on adopted children somehow recreating in their adoptive family patterns that had been observed in (and probably blamed on) their birth family.
This negates your whole thesis, as it is evidence that the problem is the child, not the family.
No, you misinterpreted my thesis. I suggested that chaotic/dysfunctional family dynamics and/or child abuse are by far and away the most common cause of extreme behaviour problems. Yes, I should have specified that I was talking about older children, and that I was assuming no other explanatory co-morbid problem such as ASD. I was not suggesting that ADHD does not exist; I was, in fact, citing that piece of research as evidence that it does.
What I did say is that there is a very respectable academic argument that neither ADHD or Dyslexia actually exist, by which they mean that there is no biological/neural base for such things; I didn't say I agreed with it.
My concern is with over-diagnosis of ADHD - that children get labelled with ADHD and medicated when they actually being scapegoated for problems within the family.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, you're putting words in her mouth, man. Plenty of people actually saying what she's not saying without picking on someone for trying to be balanced.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't see balance. I see attacking parents without due cause.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Where?
I see her saying don't leave abuse out of the equation.
[ 28. April 2013, 03:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
No, you misinterpreted my thesis. I suggested that chaotic/dysfunctional family dynamics and/or child abuse are by far and away the most common cause of extreme behaviour problems. Yes, I should have specified that I was talking about older children, and that I was assuming no other explanatory co-morbid problem such as ASD. I was not suggesting that ADHD does not exist; I was, in fact, citing that piece of research as evidence that it does.
Well, this basically says, "when there's nothing else but family problems to blame it on, it must be family problems" which is doubtless true but meaningless since it's a tautology.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
But that does work in the idea of "due cause," which is how it read to me.
Sure, I would like to see a few numbers, too, but I assure you there are kids out there who are hoping someone will consider abuse as a factor in their behavior problems. Maybe one in a thousand cases of behavior problems, but still.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I suggested that chaotic/dysfunctional family dynamics and/or child abuse are by far and away the most common cause of extreme behaviour problems. Yes, I should have specified that I was talking about older children, and that I was assuming no other explanatory co-morbid problem such as ASD.
Is this just your opinion? Or can you cite research in support of it?
I don't think you can assume that an older child or youth with difficult behavior has no explanatory co-morbid problem such as ASD. Studies consistently find that two thirds to three quarters of juvenile offenders -- arguably the youths with the most extreme behavior -- have one or more psychiatric diagnoses.
quote:
My concern is with over-diagnosis of ADHD - that children get labelled with ADHD and medicated when they actually being scapegoated for problems within the family.
I agree that ADHD is currently diagnoses, but what I've seen is not children being scapegoated for problems in the family. Rather, I've seen primary care doctors diagnose a child in a 15-minute office visit, without testing for problems in vision and hearing, sleep disorders, allergies, anxiety, or other conditions that can cause behavior or attention problems. Medical insurers don't want to pay for the kind of comprehensive evaluation that is needed. A quick visit and a prescription is easy, fast, and cheap.
It's certainly true that a child who is not mentally ill but who is living in a difficult situation (whether it's alcoholism and abuse, or poverty and lack of secure shelter and food) may also have behavior and attention problems, and those kids don't need prescriptions. They and their family need appropriate social services.
But saying that most kids with extreme behavior problems are abused isn't true, and it's not going to help these kids get the help they need.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
If 15 minutes is what a child receives, there is no diagnoses that will be correct by anything other than chance.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Of course, failures in health services in relation to mental health is a separate rant. No doctor wanting to avoid disciplinary action would diagnose and prescribe a course of treatment for cancer on the basis of a 15 min meeting with the patient. You wouldn't be happy going to a general practitioner with symptoms that could be due to cancer and after 15 mins come out with a prescription for powerful chemo-therapy drugs.
Diagnosis and treatment of mental health issues should involve a similar amount of time, number of specialists etc as any other form of health issue. That certainly includes not prescribing powerful drugs too quickly.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I suggested that chaotic/dysfunctional family dynamics and/or child abuse are by far and away the most common cause of extreme behaviour problems.
Is this just your opinion? Or can you cite research in support of it?
It's my experience and I think you'll find that in the educational literature on Social, Emotional and Behaviour Difficulties(SEBD), the medical model is so out of fashion that some authors pretty much refuse to even consider it. And yet child psychiatrists up and down the land are diagnosing it and prescribing on the basis of that diagnosis.
In the UK, child abuse (i.e. not just sexual abuse) is more common than ADHD, and this allows for the fact that some children diagnosed with ADHD will have been abused. Incidence of child abuse: NSPCC stats Incidence of ADHD: NICE figures Of course, not all children who have been abused have behaviour problems - or, at least, not the 'acting out' kind that get all the attention.
quote:
I don't think you can assume that an older child or youth with difficult behavior has no explanatory co-morbid problem such as ASD.
No, perhaps my use of the phrase 'assuming' was unhelpful. I am well aware that behaviour problems (including, but not confined to ADHD) can occur with/be caused by learning difficulties, ASD and other 'medical' (biologically-based) problems such as epilepsy. In fact, I would guess that most extreme behaviours actually go with ASD and Moderate or Severe Learning Difficulties, perhaps even Profound and Multiple Learning Difficulties.
These are UK categorisations - and I think this may be at the root of our difficulties here. When I said 'Assuming that...' I meant 'where there is no other such co-morbid problem'; in other words, behaviour problems that we in the UK would classify as SEBD - Behaviour Difficulties that have no diagnosed medical cause are a reaction to something in the environment, and in the cases of extreme behaviours (cruel/violent/criminal) that would usually be the home environment. As a putative cause of behaviour problems, ADHD on its own - that is, not associated with either medical problems or a history of abuse/neglect - is pretty rare and its status as a medical problem (or at least as an innate condition) in its own right is hotly disputed. However, as I said above, there is some evidence that might give the sceptics pause for thought.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I don't think you can assume that an older child or youth with difficult behavior has no explanatory co-morbid problem such as ASD.
No, perhaps my use of the phrase 'assuming' was unhelpful. I am well aware that behaviour problems (including, but not confined to ADHD) can occur with/be caused by learning difficulties, ASD and other 'medical' (biologically-based) problems such as epilepsy. In fact, I would guess that most extreme behaviours actually go with ASD and Moderate or Severe Learning Difficulties, perhaps even Profound and Multiple Learning Difficulties.
Thank you.
If you have a child that has severe gastrointestinal problems, your insurance pays for the diagnostic workups and whatever kind of ongoing care they need, you get plenty of sympathy and support from other people, and you are generally regarded as a wonderful parent for doing all the exhausting work that your child requires. No one suggests that the child is vomiting on purpose or that you are responsible for the diarrhea and bloating or that the child wouldn't have the problem if you would just put them in the naughty corner.
But insurance coverage for behavioral issues is scant, waiting lists for services are long, sympathy for a child who has violent tantrums is almost nonexistent. The assumption that a child's behavioral problems are caused by lousy parenting is so strong and so ingrained that even professionals who should know better will often blame the parent first.
Talk to parents of kids whose children's difficulties presented, not as vomiting but as atypical behavior, and they'll tell you about the pediatrician or teacher or child psych who told them that their child who turned out to have an ASD was just rude and undisciplined, that their child who was later diagnosed with dysphagia was manipulative and spoiled, that their child who actually had obstructive sleep apnea was lazy and disorganized.
Blaming the parents is easy. Finding the problem that's driving the difficult behavior, and providing solutions that will actually solve the problem, is difficult. And it won't happen, and the child will continue to suffer, as long as people assume that difficult behavior is caused by bad parents.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Talk to parents of kids whose children's difficulties presented, not as vomiting but as atypical behavior, and they'll tell you about the pediatrician or teacher or child psych who told them that their child who turned out to have an ASD was just rude and undisciplined, that their child who was later diagnosed with dysphagia was manipulative and spoiled, that their child who actually had obstructive sleep apnea was lazy and disorganized.
I'm starting to really appreciate my mentors int he field, because it as ingrained in me that I better have weeks of documentation and careful observation under my belt before I ever broached the subject of possible learning disabilities The laws in California at least prohibit you from saying anything that resembles a diagnosis, so all you can do is recite whatever behavior you are seeing. The idea of dismissing things as "laziness" or "spoiledness" is completely alien to me. Sorry you've run into those teachers.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I guess I feel the need to speak up because I was that kid in the opposite situation-- I was labeled as having emotional problem, and the biggest emotional problem I really had was going home to a terrifying drunk person every afternoon, and a co-parent who basically punished me for "lying" about the matter.
I don't know how to describe the "radar" that pops up when family problems are suspected,except to say it consists largely of things the child says not quite matching up with what the parent says (for instance, in the case of my friend up thread, he would mention arguments his divorcing parents would have, and when we'd timidly refer to his comments the mother would snap,"My husband and I never argue in front of him!" (complete crap-- they would argue in front of him in front of us, for God's sake.)* and a sense that the child is not so much generally not focusing as actively trying to get his/ her mind off of something.
And also, it occurs to me in writing this, that at least in the places I have worked-- which is preschool and aftercare, remember-- teachers are actually more comfortable approaching parents with possible developmental concerns than they are with family issues. Maybe that's only because in a non-academic setting parents feel freer to let their family issues hang out a little more, and actively use us as a resource. YMMV.
*I totally understand how divorce can skew one's perception, but this kid really did need someone to speak up for him. The adults were just too deep into it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Finding the true cause should always be the path.
I would quibble with your assertion about the assumptions of professionals in that these tend, IMO, to change along economic and racial lines. In other words, the richer and whiter you are, the higher the diagnoses for disorder vs. behaviour at a disproportionate rate.
ETA: response to Josephine
[ 28. April 2013, 14:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Finding the true cause should always be the path.
I would quibble with your assertion about the assumptions of professionals in that these tend, IMO, to change along economic and racial lines. In other words, the richer and whiter you are, the higher the diagnoses for disorder vs. behaviour at a disproportionate rate.
I'm not sure that the initial assumptions differ. It's possible. But the big difference is that someone who has resources can sit down at their computer and do online research on their child's difficulties, find a different doctor, take time off work to take their child to a different doctor, hire an advocate or a lawyer, pay out of pocket for evaluations and treatments, take out a second mortgage on the house if necessary. They are more likely to have insurance, to have better insurance, and to know that it's possible to appeal the denial of insurance coverage. So they're in a far better position to find the real cause of their child's difficulties, and to secure effective treatment.
If you're poor, most of the resources you need to help your child are quite simply unavailable.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If you're poor, most of the resources you need to help your child are quite simply unavailable.
Amen. The most important resource being time. headstart, for instance, is pretty good about providing an array of social services and family support, but for the parents, there are still only so many hours in the day.
Sadly, it's been my observation that in schools that are both financially stressed and serving financially stressed people*, the lion's share of "blame" in any behavior situation falls on the kid. With the adults too overwhelmed and unsupported to construct a proactive behavior management plan, they fall back on punitive, short-term control solutions that escalate the problems in the long run.
Same old story all over the US-- it is those who are most vulnerable who have the least resources.
*And add to that the recent necessity for teachers in federally run programs to devote hours of their day to filling out paperwork that will qualify them under No Child Left Behind. When does the average preschool teacher nowadays actually get to hang out with the kids? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
[ 28. April 2013, 15:36: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I guess I feel the need to speak up because I was that kid in the opposite situation-- I was labeled as having emotional problem, and the biggest emotional problem I really had was going home to a terrifying drunk person every afternoon, and a co-parent who basically punished me for "lying" about the matter.
I know that happens. And it's probably far more common than most of us realize.
quote:
I don't know how to describe the "radar" that pops up when family problems are suspected,except to say it consists largely of things the child says not quite matching up with what the parent says ...
See, to me, that makes sense. You're not starting with the assumption that the child has lousy parents. You're starting with observations, with data. And then you're using the data to form a hypothesis, and seeing whether additional data fits the hypothesis or not.
And sometimes the child's behavior is nothing more than a reaction to an awful home. I know that happens. One of my kids had a friend whose mother was bipolar and didn't believe in psychiatric medication. The boy never knew whether there would be food in the kitchen, or strange men, or whether they would be evicted and have to find another place to live. His problems at school began to clear up when he went to live with another family.
But I don't think it's reasonable to go straight from a child with problem behavior to the assumption of a messed up home. That assumes way too much, misses way too much, and has the potential for creating more problems than it solves.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
But I don't think it's reasonable to go straight from a child with problem behavior to the assumption of a messed up home. That assumes way too much, misses way too much, and has the potential for creating more problems than it solves.
Fair enough.
I guess I've just never experienced teachers doing that. Guess I've worked in some relatively well-trained staff settings.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
This is related, and worth reading.
From the article:
quote:
Maybe we should take a lesson from the rich and invest much more heavily as a society in our children’s educational opportunities from the day they are born. Investments in early-childhood education pay very high societal dividends. That means investing in developing high-quality child care and preschool that is available to poor and middle-class children. It also means recruiting and training a cadre of skilledpreschool teachers and child care providers. These are not new ideas, but we have to stop talking about how expensive and difficult they are to implement and just get on with it.
Highlighted the important bits, to me. What is happening now in federally run preschools is materialistically well-appointed centers that very often have hugely inappropriate curricula. Basically they are pushing elementary school academic teaching methods into preschool. SO the rich kids are going to the Reggio Emila and Montessori schools that are "emergent" and "developmental" and the poor kids are being deprived of total somatic brain development in favor of parking it in front of a teacher or being shuttled from teacher-directed table activity to table activity when they should be in a prepared environment that allows their initiative to tell them what to explore.
And they develop behavior problems because the centers aren't allowed, policy-wise, to put behavior management at the top of the list of priorities.
Grrrr.
[ 28. April 2013, 16:00: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
teachers are actually more comfortable approaching parents with possible developmental concerns than they are with family issues.
Ha. You just reminded me of something from my own childhood. My school was concerned about my development because I was just about the only child in my class who couldn't balance on a wobble board (or balance board, you may call it).
Apparently my parents laughed. Seeing as this was about the same time as I was beginning to attend extracurricular activities for especially gifted children.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
teachers are actually more comfortable approaching parents with possible developmental concerns than they are with family issues.
Ha. You just reminded me of something from my own childhood. My school was concerned about my development because I was just about the only child in my class who couldn't balance on a wobble board (or balance board, you may call it).
Apparently my parents laughed. Seeing as this was about the same time as I was beginning to attend extracurricular activities for especially gifted children.
Exactly! Like everyone masters the wobble board at the same time. Different kids have different focuses of initiative.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Wobble board? An activity mercifully absent from primary PE in 1950s Ireland (I was the child who never mastered 'Simon Says').
Anent which, having been moved around a lot between schools, my problem was that I was never there for The Explanation at the beginning. Hence my lifelong habit of winging it.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
What the hell is a wobble board?
(Mercifully absent from any school I ever went to either.)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Its a board with a curve on the bottom that lets you rock back and forth, for balance practice.
One version.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
It shows how much more children are monitored for developmental milestones. Vignette from about age 8: class numbers 40+, teacher woman born probably in reign of Queen Victoria or Edward VII, building modern - courtesy of he Luftwaffe, since it's in an area showing a lot of damage from The Blitz. We 'good readers' are sent to the desks on the other side of the classroom to help the 'slow readers'.
Maybe Indifferently was at school the same time as I was (or possibly a 100 years earlier) and absorbed the idea that learning is something that just requires the child try a bit harder.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ha. You just reminded me of something from my own childhood. My school was concerned about my development because I was just about the only child in my class who couldn't balance on a wobble board (or balance board, you may call it).
Apparently my parents laughed. Seeing as this was about the same time as I was beginning to attend extracurricular activities for especially gifted children.
A friend of mine who tutors kids with academic problems told me a story about her oldest son, who is now in his mid-thirties.
When he was in kindergarten and first grade, the teachers saw it as a developmental problem that he could not skip. He worried about this a lot until his mother told him that after he got into second grade, no one would care whether he could skip or not.
He graduated from college and law school.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When he was in kindergarten and first grade, the teachers saw it as a developmental problem that he could not skip. He worried about this a lot until his mother told him that after he got into second grade, no one would care whether he could skip or not.
Certainly, as the child got older, no one would care whether he could skip or not. And no one would care whether he could cross the midline (i.e., reach his right hand across his body to something on his left side). And it will never really matter whether he can alternate his feet when going up and down steps or whether he always has to step down with the left foot, bring the right foot to the same step, and step down with the left foot again.
But if a child misses significant developmental milestones, it's a red flag. There might not be anything at all wrong, but it's worth keeping an eye on, and if the child misses multiple milestones, it's worth looking into.
quote:
He graduated from college and law school.
Motor delays may not affect cognitive development. That doesn't mean they don't matter.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I don't know what age your child is, but I don't think we're talking about the same things. I wasn't talking about toddlers - anybody knows that toddlers can go apeshit about anything
No, not a toddler. How patronizing of you. You might have had the nous to realize that posting about those behaviours indicated that they were unusual for the child's expected growth and development. Thank you, I am well aware that these are normal toddler behaviours, but my child is not a toddler.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It shows how much more children are monitored for developmental milestones. Vignette from about age 8: class numbers 40+, teacher woman born probably in reign of Queen Victoria or Edward VII, building modern - courtesy of he Luftwaffe, since it's in an area showing a lot of damage from The Blitz. We 'good readers' are sent to the desks on the other side of the classroom to help the 'slow readers'.
I am such a big believer in "mixed" classrooms- benefits everyone involved.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What is happening now in federally run preschools is materialistically well-appointed centers that very often have hugely inappropriate curricula. Basically they are pushing elementary school academic teaching methods into preschool. SO the rich kids are going to the Reggio Emila and Montessori schools that are "emergent" and "developmental" and the poor kids are being deprived of total somatic brain development in favor of parking it in front of a teacher or being shuttled from teacher-directed table activity to table activity when they should be in a prepared environment that allows their initiative to tell them what to explore.
And now the federal government wants to provide universal preschool that "meets standards". Want to bet that those "standards" are going to be worksheets, coloring, and "today, children, we're going to learn about the letter 'P'"?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
France, Italy and Japan do preschool right-- why the hell can't we follow the example that is already there for us?
[ 29. April 2013, 07:23: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You can't learn from those pinkos!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Its a board with a curve on the bottom that lets you rock back and forth, for balance practice.
One version.
Gordon Bennett. We just turned the benches over in the assembly hall and walked along the underneath rail, as balance practice. Painful when you fell off. But that was probably the point. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Mind you, it took me all of primary school to master the forward roll.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Its a board with a curve on the bottom that lets you rock back and forth, for balance practice.
One version.
Shit. Don't think I could stay upright on one of those things now.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
No, not a toddler. How patronizing of you. You might have had the nous to realize that posting about those behaviours indicated that they were unusual for the child's expected growth and development. Thank you, I am well aware that these are normal toddler behaviours, but my child is not a toddler.
But I didn't know what context you were coming from. I had thought, when I originally posted, that this debate was about someone denying the validity of ADHD as a concept and hence denying the validity of using ADHD as an prime cause/explanation of "bad" behaviour in otherwise (if you'll pardon the expression) "normal" children. I therefore thought it was understood that, my comments would not apply to any child already diagnosed ahs having a disorder/condition/syndrome .
I felt that a) I had not made myself sufficiently clear and/or b) that you had mis-read my intention. There had been some discussion on the thread about people tut-tutting in supermarkets - which is something that people do about bad behaviour in toddlers, so yes, I'm afriad you did think it was possible I was including toddlers in my comments.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You can't learn from those pinkos!
[She's my mom, I can bitch about her if I want- mode] I think a great deal of America's more perplexing policy decisions can be traced to the the idea that we don't have anything to fucking learn from anybody.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Mind you, it took me all of primary school to master the forward roll.
(cough) I, um- never did.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Its a board with a curve on the bottom that lets you rock back and forth, for balance practice.
One version.
Shit. Don't think I could stay upright on one of those things now.
(Raises hand to testify)
I have been practicing to a dance mix I made recently and while I was burning the curtains in my den with my smoking hot dance moves, every five minutes or so I would just-- fall over. Has to do with a congentital missarangement of my feet (I had/ have pretty severe "duck feet" that will sneak back on me if I don't actively, mindfully combat it. So when I walk down the street, I'm thinking "Toes ahead, toes ahead, toes ahead."
All that just to reinforce what Josephine said-- although we don't want to freak out if every kid doesn't master the balance board at the same time-- or even if they don't master it at all-- it is something to watch in terms of tracking possible proprioceptive problems.
I am one big proprioceptive problem.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Ah. That'll be it then. When my fencing coach says things like "can't you tell your foot is crossing over to the left as you lunge, which is why you miss?" my answer has to be "not unless I look down at it, no."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
See, I used to fence, too. Maybe desire for better balance is what drove me to it. Either way, same thing-- I'd be in the middle of pretending I was Inigo Montoya, and I'd fall the hell over.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am one big proprioceptive problem.
Based on that, I'd be willing to bet you have trouble falling asleep and staying asleep, too. Because that goes with proprioceptive problems.
And while I wouldn't bet on it, I would guess that you had trouble, as a child, learning how to "read" body language, and maybe even facial expressions.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am one big proprioceptive problem.
Based on that, I'd be willing to bet you have trouble falling asleep and staying asleep, too. Because that goes with proprioceptive problems.
And while I wouldn't bet on it, I would guess that you had trouble, as a child, learning how to "read" body language, and maybe even facial expressions.
On point 1: YES. I will start to drift off, and I will yank myself out of it, Or I will develop a pinpoint itch that feels like a bee sting.
On point 2: No. I have actually been hyper-attentive to facial/ nonverbal cues. Byproduct of being raised by really mercurial parents.
My mom is completely crap at visual emotional cues, though. Maybe it just skipped a generation?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am one big proprioceptive problem.
Based on that, I'd be willing to bet you have trouble falling asleep and staying asleep, too. Because that goes with proprioceptive problems.
On point 1: YES. I will start to drift off, and I will yank myself out of it, Or I will develop a pinpoint itch that feels like a bee sting.
Try getting a really, really heavy blanket or quilt. Heavy as in weighs a lot, not necessarily warm. Wool is substantially heavier than polyester or cotton or down, so that's usually a good place to start. And, from an OT supply place, you can get specially made weighted blankets that do the same thing.
quote:
quote:
And while I wouldn't bet on it, I would guess that you had trouble, as a child, learning how to "read" body language, and maybe even facial expressions.
On point 2: No. I have actually been hyper-attentive to facial/ nonverbal cues. Byproduct of being raised by really mercurial parents.
My mom is completely crap at visual emotional cues, though. Maybe it just skipped a generation?
Could be. Or it could be that it was more difficult for you to learn, but that you had lots of extra motivation for learning it. And maybe your mom's proprioceptive sense is more impaired than yours, so she couldn't master it, or she didn't have the motivation she needed to master it, or she has additional impairments that affected her ability to read body language and facial expressions.
[ 29. April 2013, 17:59: Message edited by: Josephine ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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