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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: the youth of today according to Indifferently
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, he is out for a wind-up surely? Trolling?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, he is out for a wind-up surely? Trolling?
Possibly yes, but I think it's actually genuine (despite archaeologists telling us that such views were supposed to have died out ~65 million years ago) because it's too consistent for a troll, having seen more than a few on here and other boards.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Even young women themselves often use “girl” to describe themselves and shy away from using “woman".
My mother refers to 'meeting the girls' (meaning her friends). She retired last year.
I've always thought it roughly analogous to the way 'lads' or 'boys' are used to refer to grown men.
Indeed. My 'GIRLfriend' fairly regularly has "Girls' Nights in" when 'girls' (aged approx.45-65) bring food and drink round to her house and spend a pleasant evening together.
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Most of my feminist friends consider the term "girl" (when applied to women) to be demeaning and "lady" to be classist.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Either your irony meter or mine needs replacing.
If AO hadn't got a history of being a dick I might be more worried that it's mine.
I'm flattered you all take me so seriously all the time but really, you should be able to spot when someone is just being a bit cheeky. No one really slaps a girl's bum and says "Fancy a curry, sweetheart?" Well, not unless you're Del Boy, any way. Nevermind. Dead serious about acting like ladies and gentlemen though.
[ 15. May 2013, 14:34: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
having seen more than a few [trolls] on here and other boards.
Man, we used to get some really good ones back in the day. The youth of today just don't know how to start a proper War With No Rules. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm flattered you all take me so seriously all the time but really, you should be able to spot when someone is just being a bit cheeky.
The problem is, when someone has a history of being a dick, it becomes very difficult if not impossible to tell when they're only being a bit cheeky.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm flattered you all take me so seriously all the time but really, you should be able to spot when someone is just being a bit cheeky.
The problem is, when someone has a history of being a dick, it becomes very difficult if not impossible to tell when they're only being a bit cheeky.
I'm not sure I've been a dick.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, he is out for a wind-up surely? Trolling?
Not a wind-up/trolling as such. More that he enjoys posting his objectionable opinions and seeing whether he can make Jade's head explode.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm flattered you all take me so seriously all the time but really, you should be able to spot when someone is just being a bit cheeky.
The problem is, when someone has a history of being a dick, it becomes very difficult if not impossible to tell when they're only being a bit cheeky.
I'm not sure I've been a dick.
Then that would be the place to mount your defense, methinks.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
Dang right! [ Does saying "dang" put me in the lady-like category, or in the slutty, playground camp?]
Our Blessed Erin Keeper of the Rusty Farm Implements would have had a very cleansing effect on this current Hellion.
Referring to old women as "girls" is comparable to calling upper-crust horses "polo-ponies", no matter how tall they are.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Does saying "dang" put me in the lady-like category, or in the slutty, playground camp?
Not knowing the answer drops you into the latter.
Trollop.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Does saying "dang" put me in the lady-like category, or in the slutty, playground camp?
Not knowing the answer drops you into the latter.
Trollop.
What rubbish! It makes her a Pearl of great cuss! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I like to cook and taught myself how to knit- does that disqualify me from being a gentleman? Or an Old Boy?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I like to cook and taught myself how to knit- does that disqualify me from being a gentleman? Or an Old Boy?
Since R. Lee Ermey has knit, I would pay money to watch people go tell him he's not a gentleman.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
One of the reasons I refuse to wear dresses any more is I put one on and I am immediately transported to people yelling at me, "You're in a dress, ACT LIKE A LADY", which meant stop being loud, stop enjoying yourself, stop having opinions, stop calling attention to yourself and your needs.
Loudness and drawing attention to yourself is pretty horrible to see whoever it comes from dressed or nude, male or female, young or old.
From this comment I can deduce you're a white male. Because a lot of the time if a woman of color speaks, they're considered loud and rude, no matter their tone or their demeanor.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Girls using the F-word must be in the Manual of Living the Life of a Cultural Marxist Revolutionary, because I always hear them do it, and it always seems forced and weird.
Did you just call an adult woman a girl?? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Yes. Indifferently just called a queer, adult, BALD* human who identifies as female but has emphatically not identified as feminine as a 'girl', yes.
Please see link in my signature line for photographic proof of how adorable I am with no hair. Also for the photographic proof I am a soccer hooligan and therefore:
quote:
FUCK 'EM ALL! FUCK 'EM ALL!
Vancouver, Shittle, Montreal!
'Cause we are the Timbers and WE ARE THE BEST!
We are the Timbers so FUCK ALL THE REST!
[ 15. May 2013, 19:28: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I am not certain Mr. Ermey would consider himself a perfect gentleman, but since he knows people with tanks, I am not going to ask.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
[QUOTE]From this comment I can deduce you're a white male. Because a lot of the time if a woman of color speaks, they're considered loud and rude, no matter their tone or their demeanor.
You do jump to some bizarre (yet offensive) conclusions don't you? Yes, I am male but don't consider myself white (that is my right to determine).
Please do not accuse me of racism.
This allegation of racism - clearly directed personally -- is offensive. You can hardly know or be aware that I have served in a number of capacities in support of anti racist initiatives, as well as those designed to help all women acheive their potential. For most of my working life I've been in a male minority, have worked with and for women and have numerous friends across gender, race and sexuality.
My comment about loudness and rudeness was generic. I've never referred to "women of color" as a specific group as being considered loud or rude - this is pure invention on your part. You may be making a point - and yes, there's one to be made - but don't go kicking your supporters and allies. Friendly fire in this stuff isn't fun: it has an unfortunate habit of creating collateral damage.
[ 16. May 2013, 06:12: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Most of my feminist friends consider the term "girl" (when applied to women) to be demeaning and "lady" to be classist.
That's because your feminist friends are just awful, awful proles of the lowest order. I don't think I would like them.
I like ladies.
When Lady Deano is in the car and another female driver comes to her attention because they are guilt of some poor driving she calls them "Women drivers".
When Lady Deano is in the car and another female driver comes to her attention because they have shown some act of "Christian Mortoring" such as letting someone out of a side road, she calls them "Lady drivers".
I never use the word girls unless younger females (teenagers and below) are being discussed (i.e. "I sent my daughter to Rodean where she can be surrounded by other middle-class girls from decent families").
My wife uses the word girls when talking about her friends (i.e. "Me and the girls were talking about those awful, awful women who came around trying to convince us to vote socialist or some such!").
Thankfully, in the real world, militant feminism is not popular these days.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
Mr deano, by happy coincidence I see that you and Mr Karl L B are in Chesterfield! Perhaps you and he might meet to discuss applications to Rodean, for I surmise that Mr K L B has it high on the list of educational establishments for his dear daughter to attend when she is of age, thus benefitting from a public school education he esteems so highly himself!
Mrs deano and Mrs K L B might like to meet also, for a ladies' luncheon perchance? They could find a suitable venue far removed from the 'femimnist proles' you so berate. Not that your esteemed Midlands town has any such, of course. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 16. May 2013, 09:45: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
... I am a soccer hooligan and therefore:
quote:
FUCK 'EM ALL! FUCK 'EM ALL!
Vancouver, Shittle, Montreal!
'Cause we are the Timbers and WE ARE THE BEST!
We are the Timbers so FUCK ALL THE REST!
Now, I think my team's chant comes much closer to that note of ironic self-deprecation which some would consider one of the hallmarks of the gentleman(ahem):
No one likes us, no one likes us
No one likes us, we don't care!
We are Millwall, super Millwall
We are Millwall from The Den!
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Most of my feminist friends consider the term "girl" (when applied to women) to be demeaning and "lady" to be classist.
That's because your feminist friends are just awful, awful proles of the lowest order. I don't think I would like them.
I like ladies.
When Lady Deano is in the car and another female driver comes to her attention because they are guilt of some poor driving she calls them "Women drivers".
When Lady Deano is in the car and another female driver comes to her attention because they have shown some act of "Christian Mortoring" such as letting someone out of a side road, she calls them "Lady drivers".
I never use the word girls unless younger females (teenagers and below) are being discussed (i.e. "I sent my daughter to Rodean where she can be surrounded by other middle-class girls from decent families").
My wife uses the word girls when talking about her friends (i.e. "Me and the girls were talking about those awful, awful women who came around trying to convince us to vote socialist or some such!").
Thankfully, in the real world, militant feminism is not popular these days.
People who don't like classism getting called classist slurs. Shock, horror etc.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Mr deano, by happy coincidence I see that you and Mr Karl L B are in Chesterfield! Perhaps you and he might meet to discuss applications to Rodean, for I surmise that Mr K L B has it high on the list of educational establishments for his dear daughter to attend when she is of age, thus benefitting from a public school education he esteems so highly himself!
Mrs deano and Mrs K L B might like to meet also, for a ladies' luncheon perchance? They could find a suitable venue far removed from the 'femimnist proles' you so berate. Not that your esteemed Midlands town has any such, of course.
Haven't you got some beans to count?
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Meseems Deano only posts to caricature himself these days.
[ 16. May 2013, 10:16: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meseems Deano only posts to caricature himself these days.
How would you tell the difference?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
[QUOTE]From this comment I can deduce you're a white male. Because a lot of the time if a woman of color speaks, they're considered loud and rude, no matter their tone or their demeanor.
You do jump to some bizarre (yet offensive) conclusions don't you? Yes, I am male but don't consider myself white (that is my right to determine).
Please do not accuse me of racism.
This allegation of racism - clearly directed personally -- is offensive. You can hardly know or be aware that I have served in a number of capacities in support of anti racist initiatives, as well as those designed to help all women acheive their potential. For most of my working life I've been in a male minority, have worked with and for women and have numerous friends across gender, race and sexuality.
That wasn't an accusation of racism. It was one of blinkered privilege. One you underline by saying that you don't choose to define yourself as white - that is indeed your right. But if you can pass for white and even vaguely middle class to external observers you gain almost all the privilege associated with that
And seriously a defence that includes the statement (paraphrased) "some of my friends are black and some of my friends are gay" is probably one you need to rethink.
quote:
My comment about loudness and rudeness was generic. I've never referred to "women of color" as a specific group as being considered loud or rude - this is pure invention on your part. You may be making a point - and yes, there's one to be made - but don't go kicking your supporters and allies. Friendly fire in this stuff isn't fun: it has an unfortunate habit of creating collateral damage.
You shouldn't be so fast to take offence - the way you are taking offence bears no relationship to what Spiffy wrote. She wasn't saying you were accusing her of being loud and rude. She was saying that a black woman speaking politely (or indeed at all) will be accused by third parties of being loud and rude where a white man won't. So the standards are very different - Spiffy would practically have to turn herself into a Stepford Wife for people never to accuse her of such.
And as for being some form of ally, do you want a cookie?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I suppose this is being viewed through distorted specs.
My take:
Exclamation Mark makes an exclamation that is, on its surface, anachronistic at most.
Spiffy overreacts, or reacts to a tangent that might not have been present in EM's thought process.
Exclamation Mark overreacts to the overreaction, perhaps understandably.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
[QUOTE]From this comment I can deduce you're a white male. Because a lot of the time if a woman of color speaks, they're considered loud and rude, no matter their tone or their demeanor.
You do jump to some bizarre (yet offensive) conclusions don't you? Yes, I am male but don't consider myself white (that is my right to determine).
Please do not accuse me of racism.
The comment I made above wasn't accusing you of racism but an attempt by me to point out that your experience is drastically different than mine as we come from different life experienced based on the color of our skin and our perceived gender identity.
But you felt the need to say a bunch of racist shit to prove you weren't racist because *gasp* I brought up skin color, and you saw a conclusion and jumped like a toad. I see that everyone else has already pointed that out and offered you the traditional Ally Cookie™. Enjoy it in good health.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
I hardly ever dare to post in hell, in fact I don't think I ever have, but just want to add my two cents on the girl/woman/lady question.
I usually admire and agree with almost everything that Jade utters, but in this case I don't feel as she does about these words.
I'm in my fifties and I don't really mind if you want to call me a girl, for example invite me to a "Girls' night out," though I admit it's a bit daft at my age...
I was brought up to consider "lady," when used instead of "woman," rather "common." A misguided attempt at gentility, like "serviette" instead of "napkin." As if one were afraid of the word
"woman."
But that was the attitude of an earlier generation, and now I don't mind whether you call me, or other women, girls, women or ladies, as long as we're afforded as much respect as men.
And as Albertus mentioned above, a real "gentleman" or "lady" could be from any class at all; it was just someone of innate courtesy and consideration for others--not a grovelling consideration, but one born of true self-respect, and therefore leading to respect for others.
In the days when these terms meant anything, a real gentleman was one who, even if from the "upper classes," did not give himself airs above those of "lower" classes than him, and treated everyone with courtesy.
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
[QUOTE] The comment I made above wasn't accusing you of racism but an attempt by me to point out that your experience is drastically different than mine as we come from different life experienced based on the color of our skin and our perceived gender identity.
Spiffy - why didn't you say that then? Yes our experiences are different and I am not going to pretend otherwise. I'm sorry for the knee jerk reaction.
Tell me then, honestly, how I can sort this out.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
She was saying that a black woman speaking politely (or indeed at all) will be accused by third parties of being loud and rude where a white man won't.
"Mouthy" is the word that's been applied to me for putting across my professional view in meetings. I wonder if anyone ever describes a white bloke in a suit as "mouthy"?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Indeed: men are 'assertive', women are 'pushy' and all that...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I've been called "mouthy" before as well. But, ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) , I kinda am.
White blokes are more likely be called "assertive."
(X-post with MB)
[ 16. May 2013, 16:19: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
She was saying that a black woman speaking politely (or indeed at all) will be accused by third parties of being loud and rude where a white man won't.
"Mouthy" is the word that's been applied to me for putting across my professional view in meetings. I wonder if anyone ever describes a white bloke in a suit as "mouthy"?
Yeah. I've known plenty of leary white blokes in suits in my time. You know, the type you'd like to punch.
[ 16. May 2013, 16:22: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Indeed: men are 'assertive', women are 'pushy' and all that...
Quite a few men of that kind are plain rude. They need to be told that. Even if it's rude to do so. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm flattered you all take me so seriously all the time but really, you should be able to spot when someone is just being a bit cheeky. No one really slaps a girl's bum and says "Fancy a curry, sweetheart?" Well, not unless you're Del Boy, any way. Nevermind. Dead serious about acting like ladies and gentlemen though. [/QUOTE]
The phrase you missed out here is "in my experience", "In my experience no one really slaps a girl's bum and says "Fancy a curry, sweetheart?"
I hate to break it to you like this, but your experience is not universal.
In my experience this kind of behaviour (public bum-slapping and similar assaults) is probably rarer than it used to be, but far from extinct.
In my experience the words 'girl' and 'lady' are sometimes used to patronise women. In my experience some women worry about this and some don't. Their reactions may be affected by their experiences and these experiences may very. Either way you don't get to choose how any particular woman should react.
This is also true for other, more contentious words used for groups of people. Some members of the group may be offended by the use of these words, some may choose to use these words within their own group - and you as a non-member still don't get to choose how any particular member of the group may choose to use the word or react to your use of it.
In my experience assuming that all members of any group will behave in the same way in any given situation, simply because they are members of that group is a diagnostic indicator of a number of the nastier 'isms'
Anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
So, are we meant to live in consrant fear of offending people? I mean, "lady" and "girl" is not that bad in the greater scheme of things. In fact, far from it. Most use them quite innocently, even "girls", and in all my lifetime I've never known a man to slap a girls bum except on TV. Maybe some people just need a day off?
[ 16. May 2013, 17:51: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You do jump to some bizarre (yet offensive) conclusions don't you? Yes, I am male but don't consider myself white (that is my right to determine).
Please do not accuse me of racism.
When it comes to privilege, it really doesn't matter how you define yourself because it's about how other people treat you. If you look like a white guy to a complete stranger, then you're going to have white privilege. I have straight privilege because I'm a woman married to a man. Do I consider myself straight? Hell no. I'm bi and all my previous relationships have been with women. But to the person on the hotel desk, in the hospital, out and about, whatever, they see me as straight and that affects what shit I do and don't have to deal with. If someone points out this privilege and I say "no you're wrong - I'm bi and I have all these gay friendly credentials!" I'm missing the point.
So if you appear to be white then yeah, you have white privilege. Doesn't mean you live a wonderful perfect life with no problems, it just means that there's a particular set of problems you might well face if you weren't white, and those problems are things you don't have to deal with. One of these is as Spiffy described: being seen as loud and impolite simply because of your skin colour and gender. When someone points this kind of thing out the best response is generally to listen and take them at their word that that genuinely is their experience, even if it isn't yours.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
When someone points this kind of thing out the best response is generally to listen and take them at their word that that genuinely is their experience, even if it isn't yours.
I would agree with that wholeheartedly, but also point out that no one seems to be listening to Exclamation Mark.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
...it just means that there's a particular set of problems you might well face if you weren't white, and those problems are things you don't have to deal with. One of these is as Spiffy described: being seen as loud and impolite simply because of your skin colour and gender. When someone points this kind of thing out the best response is generally to listen and take them at their word that that genuinely is their experience, even if it isn't yours.
And how was EM meant to know that Spiffy is a woman of colour? It's not like it's in her .sig.... Her response to him, reads like a fantastic non sequitur unless you know this about her.
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As a complete aside, here's an interesting pond difference. Last equality and diversity course I went on the terminally earnest walking stereotype who led it told us that 'coloured' was a wrong term and people should be described as black, as everyone's skin is coloured - pink, white, brown, black, purple, green, whatever....
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
When someone points this kind of thing out the best response is generally to listen and take them at their word that that genuinely is their experience, even if it isn't yours.
I would agree with that wholeheartedly, but also point out that no one seems to be listening to Exclamation Mark.
ExclamationMark can be assured that we hosts, if no one else, are reading every word.
SS HH
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
And seriously a defence that includes the statement (paraphrased) "some of my friends are black and some of my friends are gay" is probably one you need to rethink.
I think this might be a bit unfair. I did not read Exclamation Mark's statement this way.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
As a complete aside, here's an interesting pond difference. Last equality and diversity course I went on the terminally earnest walking stereotype who led it told us that 'coloured' was a wrong term and people should be described as black, as everyone's skin is coloured - pink, white, brown, black, purple, green, whatever....
No matter what you choose, somewhere you will be wrong. The terms, and how we interpret them, are contextual and dynamic. For most, however, it is how the terms are used.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
In my experience the words 'girl' and 'lady' are sometimes used to patronise women. In my experience some women worry about this and some don't. Their reactions may be affected by their experiences and these experiences may very. Either way you don't get to choose how any particular woman should react.
And like anything else, it's context-dependent. It's common to refer to "a night out with the girls" or indeed "a night out with the boys", and nobody views those usages as patronizing.
Generally-speaking, the problems come when "girls" is used in opposition to "men", for reasons which should be obvious. When used alone to describe a group of female adults, as Indifferently did, the "men" might be implicit rather than explicit.
Similarly, if you are referring to "ladies" and "men", you have a problem. "Ladies and gentlemen" is always OK. Calling someone a "lady doctor" or "lady police officer" is particularly heinous.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Similarly, if you are referring to "ladies" and "men", you have a problem. "Ladies and gentlemen" is always OK.
I get that in theory. However, if I'm telling my daughter to say thank you in a shop, I'd either say "say thank you to the nice lady", or "say thank you to the nice man" (well, I'd probably just say "make sure you say thank you", but if gender is mentioned...). I might say "gentleman", but that can seem pretentious when, for whatever reason, "lady" doesn't. I don't think I'd say "say thank you to the nice woman", it sounds socially wrong. I definitely wouldn't say 'girl' or 'boy', even if the person was young.
I don't think this is because I'm sexist, just that different words tend to get used in different ways in society.
I guess one could say that it's a sign of gender inequality at play that the language rules are different, and it's my duty to pioneer the use of equivalent terminology. But, I'll probably just forget next time I'm in a shop with my daughter, because my focus will be on making sure she says her Ps & Qs and is polite to the shopkeeper, whatever their gender. Heigh ho.
I just thought, maybe I should be making sure that she doesn't call her male teachers 'sir', and her female teachers 'miss' too, that actually seems even more unequal and wrong... Man! This is giving me a headache...
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Please see link in my signature line for photographic proof of how adorable I am with no hair.
What the fuck does your hair or lack thereof have to do with anything?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:What the fuck does your hair or lack thereof have to do with anything?
1) You pick out that one noodle of non-sequitur out of the whole Whiskey Tango Foxtrot soup?
2) I have a theory. Spiffmeister may have been picked on a lot in her past. Or maybe she still is - whatever. She may have internalized this to the point where she now automatically assumes that most people have an urge to pick on her at the mere sight of her - perhaps because she fears that the whole world can instantly recognize her oh-so-worthwhile-to-pick-on aspects. So her meta-message there was to point us to look so that we could see how obviously she gets picked on more than anybody else. Even though it's oh-so-bravely garnished with her ego shreds.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Heck, I thought she was just making a bunch of irrational assumptions to demonstrate how irrational assumptions look to the person making irrational assumptions about "ladies", but I am the Delmar in this run of O Brother, Where Art Thou?, so don't mind me.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
IMO, that's giving her way too much credit, Kelly. I think she's being irrational because she doesn't operate any other way.
I mean, there she is asserting her badass "I am a woman of color who will not be cowed by your patriarchal racist bullshit, you better watch out" self in one breath and then claiming to be adorable in the next. Kinda like she shaved her head and then tied a pink ribbon around it.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
From now on, people should get rid of all these fancy avatars and use photos.
Disclosure: I am not, in fact, a glowing musical instrument. In truth I am Jonathan Rhys Meyer's secret twin.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
IMO, that's giving her way too much credit, Kelly. I think she's being irrational because she doesn't operate any other way.
I mean, there she is asserting her badass "I am a woman of color who will not be cowed by your patriarchal racist bullshit, you better watch out" self in one breath and then claiming to be adorable in the next. Kinda like she shaved her head and then tied a pink ribbon around it.
I'm not questioning that the rhetoric is a bit of a one-note song-- sorry Spiff-- I'm questioning the application of "hysteria" to the tone of it. That's just the way she writes. It may be bombastic, but I've read enough of her stuff-- on and off the Ship-- to kind of be used to it. When she's REALLY pissed, it comes across a lot differently.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Kinda like she shaved her head and then tied a pink ribbon around it.
I can see her doing just that, actually... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 17. May 2013, 16:52: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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