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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Texas Says It's OK to Shoot an Escort If She Won't Have Sex With You
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
He sounds like a Good Christian Man...
quote:
He thanked God, his lawyers, and the jury for being able to "see what wasn't the truth."
Thank you, God, for being able to see what wasn't the truth. Thank you.
[ 11. June 2013, 09:42: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Well, I can almost see his point. It was 150$ and it was Christmas eve. He might have wanted the money to buy his mother a Christmas present. Greedy capitalistic whore.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
You pay for something, you expect to get it. That is how capitalism works.
You don;t get what you want, you shoot. That is how the US works.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
You'd be right in calling the individual to Hell, and also the imperfections in Texas law that led to this state of affairs, but not even a Texas court actually says you can shoot an escort who refuses to have sex.
So, TICTH Gawker for weighing into a tragic situation with crass, sensationalist journalism that doesn't help anyone.
I read your link LJ and found it uncompelling. OK, so the legal case hinged on the fact that the defendant shot the prostitute because he believed she stole from him because she took his money but didn't provide sex. That's as close as bugga is to swearing to saying it's ok to shoot an escort if she won't have sex with you.
Oh and cut the pious crap about crass sensationalist journalism. Just maybe pointing out the ludicrous outcomes of Texan laws might shame then into some sense, although I doubt it ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
That's as close as bugga is to swearing to saying it's ok to shoot an escort if she won't have sex with you.
To me, the article seemed to be saying that he should have been prosecuted for manslaughter, not murder, and that he would most likely have been found guilty (even in Texas). So I'm not sure the article is saying what he did is 'ok' at all.
It did make me think that the original article was a tad misleading. But still, anyone who decides to shoot at a car with an AK47 because in their (faulty) opinion that person stole from them should be in jail. It's insane that he's not.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I read your link LJ and found it uncompelling. OK, so the legal case hinged on the fact that the defendant shot the prostitute because he believed she stole from him because she took his money but didn't provide sex. That's as close as bugga is to swearing to saying it's ok to shoot an escort if she won't have sex with you.
No, according to the link he was probably acquitted on the basis that he actually shot at the car tyre and a bit of shrapnel killed the woman. Given that juryroom deliberations are secret, there's no way of telling for certain.
FWIW it still sounds like nonsense to me - surely you can either argue that you were shooting at her in legitimate defence of your property, or that you weren't shooting at her at all, but not both at the same time?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
FWIW it still sounds like nonsense to me - surely you can either argue that you were shooting at her in legitimate defence of your property, or that you weren't shooting at her at all, but not both at the same time?
It's Texas, man. Ride 'em hard, shoot 'em up Second Amendment (pry my AK-47 out of my cold, dead hands) country.
I think it makes perfect sense.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
That's as close as bugga is to swearing to saying it's ok to shoot an escort if she won't have sex with you.
To me, the article seemed to be saying that he should have been prosecuted for manslaughter, not murder, and that he would most likely have been found guilty (even in Texas). So I'm not sure the article is saying what he did is 'ok' at all.
I'm not saying that the article says what he did is ok. I'm saying that the actions of the judge and jury in interpreting Texan law say loud and clear that it's ok to shoot an escort if they took money from you but didn't provide sex.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...
Oh and cut the pious crap about crass sensationalist journalism. Just maybe pointing out the ludicrous outcomes of Texan laws might shame then into some sense, although I doubt it
"Crass sensationalist journalism" is at the core of this. Way too much law is put into place on the basis of newspaper headlines and a populist "Something must be done about" <insert evil of the week>. I give you the Patriot Act and the (UK's) Serious Organised Crime Act, which has had few successes other than moving an old man in a tent off Parliament Square.
I expect some decent well-meaning congressperson will propose legislation regulating contracts between sex workers and their clients any day now. Hands up everyone who thinks it will do any good?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
It doesn't matter what the jury deliberations were about. It doesn't matter what the charges were. It doesn't matter what the defense was.
Lenora Ivie Frago was killed by Ezekiel Gilbert when he pointed a gun at the car she was in and pulled the trigger. After a trial he is not penalised and she is still dead.
This is wrong and everyone involved in the Texas justice system should be clamouring for it to be put right.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Well, yeah, but see my post above.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I'm saying that the actions of the judge and jury in interpreting Texan law say loud and clear that it's ok to shoot an escort if they took money from you but didn't provide sex.
I think the prosecutors and the people that made Texas's dumb laws in the first place hold more blame than the judge and jury. The prosecutors should have had enough understanding of Texan law to go for a manslaughter charge rather than murder, and ISTM that it's likely that the judge and jury interpreted the laws correctly. It's the laws that are stupid.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
As noted above, the rights ands wrongs or facts and interpretations of same mean diddly in the court of (often uninformed) public opinion.
Sober, thoughtful, considered reporting, using a careful spelling out of charges, possible penalties, legal niceties, and judge's instructions to the jury would lead to pretty much the same conclusion in most public perception.
In this culture, people do not like details, complexities, or subtleties. They do not like thinking. They find it threatening to entertain points of view which differ from their own. They do not like ambiguity. They like things to be clear-cut, black-and-white, and absolute. They like going for the jugular.
And many, many of them are armed.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
It seems to me that it was clearly a mistake to upgrade the charge from aggravated assault all the way to murder. It should have been upgraded to manslaughter, because it was, and it is probable that the defendant would have been found guilty - even in Texas. The extra spleen-driven urge to make believe that it was murder - which implies intent to kill - is probably what opened up the loophole.
In my opinion, it is the prosecution is who is primarily responsible for this miscarriage of justice.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You are correct. But still, fuck Texas.
If they had tried for manslaughter, they would have likely gained a conviction. But the shooter would likely not go to jail.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
In England the death penalty was removed from a lot of crimes in the early 19th century. Not just theft, some forms of homicide as well, such as infanticide, where a mother kills her own baby. One of the reasons for this was that juries were said to be reluctant to convict if the accused might be killed.
Maybe this was that? They thought he was guilty, but not so guilty they'd want to risk sending him to the elctric chair (or whatever mass-industrial-era technology Texas is using on its murderers this year)
On the other hand, don't juries have the chance to find someone accused of murder guilty of manslaughter instead? I thought they did here. Not that I've ever been in a trail in real life, maybe that's just on TV.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
On the other hand, don't juries have the chance to find someone accused of murder guilty of manslaughter instead? I thought they did here. Not that I've ever been in a trail in real life, maybe that's just on TV.
According to the article cited by Lord Jestocost, the judge could (should?) have instructed the jury that it was open to them convict on the lesser charge, but did not do so. Because they were not instructed that they should consider the lesser charge they were unable to convict on it.
On the facts as stated, an involuntary manslaughter charge looks overwhelmingly like to have succeeded, if the prosecution had pursued that charge, or the judge laid it before the jury then I think they would have convicted. The only charge before them, however, was deliberate murder, and the evidnce apparently didn't stack up for that.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
You don;t get what you want, you shoot. That is how the US works.
Fuck you.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
You don;t get what you want, you shoot. That is how the US works.
Fuck you.
Truth hurts.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
So, TICTH Gawker for weighing into a tragic situation with crass, sensationalist journalism that doesn't help anyone.
I gave up Gawker for Lent and haven't been back since. The writing can be spectacular, but I was losing too much time getting mad at the glib headlines.
When A.J. Daulerio was first promoted from Deadspin EIC to Gawker EIC, he had an openly acknowledged contest one week for his writers. Each one was assigned a day of the week, and the person who generated the most hits on their designated day of the week won a prize. The point, of course, was to teach them to write headlines that will generate hits. Hits mean advertisers, and advertisers pay the bills. Their editorial policy may lean hard left, but their business model is very shrewd and very capitalist.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
You don;t get what you want, you shoot. That is how the US works.
Fuck you.
Truth hurts.
Oh, you shoot when you don't get what you want? Good to know.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
God Bless American Exceptionalism. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
You don;t get what you want, you shoot. That is how the US works.
Fuck you.
Truth hurts.
Oh, you shoot when you don't get what you want? Good to know.
Wait, this is a documentary right?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
The better headline would be: Texas Says It's OK to Shoot an Escort If She Won't Have Sex With You After You've Paid Her
Pimps and prostitutes who try to steal from their johns should probably expect the occasional unfortunate outcome.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Pimps and prostitutes who try to steal from their johns should probably expect the occasional unfortunate outcome.
Likewise for drug dealers who serve up brick-dust and end up with their kneecaps in the wrong place.
If you are operating outside the law it's no use looking to the law for protection.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Pimps and prostitutes who try to steal from their johns should probably expect the occasional unfortunate outcome.
Likewise for drug dealers who serve up brick-dust and end up with their kneecaps in the wrong place.
If you are operating outside the law it's no use looking to the law for protection.
So how exactly does this work for the john, who is also operating outside the law?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
In the UK (at least) an escort is not the same thing as a prostitute. Is it not possible that this woman was operating perfectly legally and offering company for money. The article seems to imply that Gilbert believed the deal was sex, but was mistaken - in which case his $150 never was paying for sex, and he would not be entitled to a refund on the basis that she was reneging on the deal.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Gilbert would then still be intending to commit a crime.
IIRC, America also has non-sexual paid escorts. I would not think they would travel with "managers," however.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
I hadn't seen any mention of a manager, although reading the second article I see that she was offering her services in 30 minute segments, which doesn't really suggest a social engagement...
Personally I think that if a person deliberately points a gun in someone's direction and fires it, and that person dies as a result, the one with the gun is responsible for the death.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Somehow I have gotten the impression* that the prosecutors could have shot** for murder and also had a lesser included charge of manslaughter. So, Texas law on the subject is awful, but so are the egos of the prosecutors staff.
___________
*I think it was when I went to law school.
**Yes, it was an intentional pun.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
I hadn't seen any mention of a manager
The articles in the San Antonio paper mention him.
quote:
Personally I think that if a person deliberately points a gun in someone's direction and fires it, and that person dies as a result, the one with the gun is responsible for the death.
Yes, but the law, as has been mentioned earlier, recognizes differing degrees of culpability.
(I had no idea there were 'escorts' who didn't offer sexual services. I suppose the next time I don't feel like going to the ballet by myself…)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Another good reason to give thanks for living on this side of the pond...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Another good reason to give thanks for living on this side of the pond...
What, the absence of non-sexual paid escorts? I guess if that's your thing...
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
It's a Christian Country which respects the sanctity of human life!
Unless a small amount of my money is involved, in which case you can fuck off and die.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Pimps and prostitutes who try to steal from their johns should probably expect the occasional unfortunate outcome.
Likewise for drug dealers who serve up brick-dust and end up with their kneecaps in the wrong place.
If you are operating outside the law it's no use looking to the law for protection.
I don't know. I've watched quite a bit of The First 48, a show which follows entire murder investigations, all real footage, no recreations. Homocide units in Miami, Detroit, Cincinnati, and, yes, even Dallas, TX routinely chase down murderers of drug dealers. As far as they are concerned a murder is a murder. If someone in their cities had shot a dealer because they hadn't delivered the goods, they would do their best to make a good case.
It's staggering that they applied the law to an expectation of unlawful services for hire. It's exactly as if a drug deal gone bad is an excuse for murder. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It's staggering that they applied the law to an expectation of unlawful services for hire. It's exactly as if a drug deal gone bad is an excuse for murder.
It's even more staggering that they applied the law to a false expectation of unlawful services for hire ... as if a drug deal gone bad is an excuse for murder, where the shooter is the only one who even thinks it's a drug deal to begin with.
"Yeah, that's it - I thought I was buying sex and got scammed. Yeah, that's what happened. How was I supposed to know it really was just an escort service?"
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
So, everybody obsessing about the circumstantial aspect of the prostitution, you really mean to say that - in every jurisdiction outside of Texas - prosecutions have never over-egged an accusation such that a guilty party was able to wriggle out of it?
Your willingness to cling to an incorrect and polarizing narrative is stupid and unhelpful.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Your willingness to cling to an incorrect and polarizing narrative is stupid and unhelpful.
yet, not in the least surprising.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
So, everybody obsessing about the circumstantial aspect of the prostitution, you really mean to say that - in every jurisdiction outside of Texas - prosecutions have never over-egged an accusation such that a guilty party was able to wriggle out of it?
So, criticising one specific instance of poor practice and the perpetrators thereof implies belief that it is unique?
Your willingness to cling to an incorrect and polarizing narrative is stupid and unhelpful, but typically entertaining.
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
So, criticising one specific instance of poor practice and the perpetrators thereof implies belief that it is unique?
Conflating krillfucker, I have absolutely zero problem with criticizing each and every instance of poor practice. But if you bother to read what I wrote, you'll notice that I had a very clear filtering clause: those commenting on irrelevant aspects of the guilty asshole. Meanwhile, one of the premises of the thread, written directly into the title, is that this particular poor practice is specific to Texas.
So, are you just stupid, or smearing yourself with catsup?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Sometimes, RooK, I just wish you'd come straight out and say what you think instead of pussy-footing around with all those mealy-mouthed euphemisms.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
So, criticising one specific instance of poor practice and the perpetrators thereof implies belief that it is unique?
Conflating krillfucker, I have absolutely zero problem with criticizing each and every instance of poor practice. But if you bother to read what I wrote, you'll notice that I had a very clear filtering clause: those commenting on irrelevant aspects of the guilty asshole.
Your filtering clause - which , like the toothless whale you seem to have become, sadly failed to filter out enough krill for my tastes - makes no difference to my so-called point. Of course I am guilty of exactly the same thing that I suggested you were doing with respect to your comment. So bite me, if you like the flavour.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Meanwhile, one of the premises of the thread, written directly into the title, is that this particular poor practice is specific to Texas.
It's reassuring to know that thread titles are an invariable restriction on thread content.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
So, are you just stupid, or smearing yourself with catsup?
Both, actually, but my hobbies are my own affair.
As for QLib, I don't sense that Rook actually needs the adulation of slimy lickspittles to obtain his particular kicks from threads like these; but if he does no doubt you will be the first in the queue.
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
I find it odd that a person can point a gun in someones direction. Fire. The person dies. And it's not murder. I don't think saying that they only intended to shoot a tire and didn't expect any shrapnel should be a defence.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
Your filtering clause ... makes no difference to my so-called point.
Other than to point out that you had no point, you mean. Your amusing attempt to "play Hell" with me notwithstanding.
quote:
It's reassuring to know that thread titles are an invariable restriction on thread content.
You do realize that this was a case of MY staying on topic, right? Or were you simply blinded by your fannish enthusiasm to engage me in Hell that you blurted out this idiocy unconsidered?
Careful of your teasing of QLib; enough chocolate has been exchanged to pay for a couple bannings no-questions-asked.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I find it odd that a person can point a gun in someones direction. Fire. The person dies. And it's not murder. I don't think saying that they only intended to shoot a tire and didn't expect any shrapnel should be a defence.
It is indeed a conundrum, and a galling one at that. One must assume that the "jury of one's peers" meant that they were sympathetic to the idea that the accused was amazingly stupid, and really could have lacked the "intent to kill".
Which is why manslaughter would have a better charge - it allows for conviction of both the stupid and the insane. And it doesn't have the possibility of the death sentence, which surely must make juries more reluctant to convict in murder cases.
But what also pisses me off is that this stupid, gun-waving fuck will probably still be allowed to own guns.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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