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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Memory eternal, Alex Spourdalakis
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh, you have a right to express an opinion. We have the right to express what we think of your opinion.
It would sure help if you expressed your opinion with a bit more clarity, though. Like, making clear if you're talking about just turned 18 kids rather than middle-aged people who've developed a mental illness, for fuck's sake.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Well Orfeo if I had known it mattered so much to you I would have tried to specify the ages of everyone involved in all my examples but I really don't see what difference it makes when talking about the stresses of being a combination parent/care-giver. We don't love our children any less when they are 45 than we did when they were 6. If they are suffering from a disease does it matter whether it began at 20 or 16?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
I do understand how hard it is to deal with severe disabilities that result in violent outbursts. That can happen with developmental disorders, mental illness, and certain neurological disorders (like dementia). It's hard to be the caregiver. Really, really hard.
And I can understand the caregiver who, sleep-deprived, frightened, frustrated, despairing, just snaps. Who, say, hits the person they're caring for hard enough to knock them down the stairs, resulting in their death.
But Mrs. Spourdalakis didn't just snap. She conspired to commit premeditated murder. That, I cannot understand. That, I have no sympathy for.
During the time she was planning the murder, she had other options. She could have called Alex's father and said, "I can't do this any more. Come get him."
She could have called child protective services and said, "I can't do this any more. Come get him."
She could have called the cops, or Alex's doctor, or "Dr." Wakefield (who had spent time at Alex's bedside, helping raise funds for Alex's care).
But she didn't do any of those things. Instead, she plotted murder.
There is no excuse. There can be no excuse. This was cold-blooded, pre-meditated murder.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Well Orfeo if I had known it mattered so much to you I would have tried to specify the ages of everyone involved in all my examples but I really don't see what difference it makes when talking about the stresses of being a combination parent/care-giver. We don't love our children any less when they are 45 than we did when they were 6. If they are suffering from a disease does it matter whether it began at 20 or 16?
Yes, I think it matters quite a lot whether or not the ill person was living an independent existence before they started requiring care.
I also think it matters quite a lot whether someone actually has a condition that can properly be called an 'illness'. Someone who was previously 'well' can sensibly be described as having an 'illness'. I have doubts that someone who is how they have always been, and who will always be that way, should be thought of as 'ill'.
[ 17. June 2013, 16:42: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I have doubts that someone who is how they have always been, and who will always be that way, should be thought of as 'ill'.
Would you apply that to, say, an infant born with spina bifida?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I have doubts that someone who is how they have always been, and who will always be that way, should be thought of as 'ill'.
Would you apply that to, say, an infant born with spina bifida?
Yes, probably, in that I doubt I would describe that as an illness or a sickness. A condition? A disability?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
At this point it looks like you're splitting straws.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
But Mrs. Spourdalakis didn't just snap. She conspired to commit premeditated murder. That, I cannot understand. That, I have no sympathy for.
Surely something must have snapped inside her for her to do this. Some inability to see the consequences of her actions - or maybe she had got to the point where she didn't care any more. It is not a rational, well mind that plots murder like this. It has huge consequences for herself too. It's not logical - on the one hand it seems she wanted to kill the boy to make things easier for herself, but of course it isn't going to do this. She will then be a murderer, and have consequences to pay. Most abusers are quite careful to hide their abuse, and not to go too far, because they don't want to pay the consequences. This mother had somehow reached a point beyond this. I don't understand what this must feel like, but I imagine it must be a terrible place to be.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Terrible indeed. It is her method which pushes more towards this being about herself than her son. Rationality is lost in either case.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
At this point it looks like you're splitting straws.
That may well be your opinion, but I don't think I am. There is an utterly fundamental difference between dealing with 'ill' people who might be capable of cure, and dealing with people who simply are who they are.
One of the dangers of labelling people born autistic or with cerebral palsy (which is emphatically not any kind of 'mental illness' whatsoever) or deaf or anything lifelong as 'ill' is that it then enables a mindset that the person 'will always be ill'.
And heck, no-one would want to live permanently 'sick', right? It would be a kindness to put such a person out of their 'misery', right?
Words like these matter, precisely because the straws I'm splitting set people on different paths of thinking. It's potentially the difference between seeing a person as having opportunities to lead a rich life within their abilities and seeing a person as having a problem that can only be solved by dying.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
With regard to the discussion between Orfeo and Mousethief, autism is not usually considered a disease or an illness, and autistic people often take offence to it being described that way. It's a difference in the way the mind works. It can be called a disability, a condition, a disorder, but not normally an illness. It can have co-occurring illnesses though, such as digestive problems. On the other hand, I have these digestive problems, but I do not define myself as 'ill'. I see Orfeo's point here. I know someone with spina bifida, and I very much doubt he'd describe himself as ill either. Disabled, yes, but ill, no. I imagine there are exceptions to Orfeo's rule though - if someone is born with cancer, then they are ill.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is an utterly fundamental difference between dealing with 'ill' people who might be capable of cure, and dealing with people who simply are who they are.
Ah, I crossposted with this when I gave the example of someone born with cancer - I didn't know you were meaning people not capable of being cured. In that case, yes, I totally agree with you. With your whole post. I work with severely disabled children, who will always be that way, and I don't see any of them as 'ill' - unless they get flu or a tummy bug, and then they are ill during the time it lasts. But their disability is not illness, in my mind. It is just part of who they are.
[ 17. June 2013, 17:55: Message edited by: Fineline ]
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
But Mrs. Spourdalakis didn't just snap. She conspired to commit premeditated murder. That, I cannot understand. That, I have no sympathy for.
Well, it's good to know that you too have your limitations.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Terrible indeed. It is her method which pushes more towards this being about herself than her son. Rationality is lost in either case.
Like I said on the other thread, they killed the cat.
And they tried to kill each other.
This doesn't look like someone "just snapping" at all. It looks like a suicide pact.
My guess is that Alex, the cat, and one of the adults (no idea which) are basically collateral damage in the other adult's botched suicide. One of them was seriously mentally ill and also very evil (the two are not mutally exclusive any more than than being sane and evil are mutually exclusive). Is my guess.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Killing the cat indicates crazy, yes. The suicide attempt indicates that she was attempting to relieve her own pain. Plunging a knife repeatedly into the body of someone she was supposedly cared about? This screams anger, no, it screams RAGE. She was angry at the pain he caused her, not caring about the pain he was suffering.
The suicide, if she hoped to die, seems likely to escape consequence.
Yes. Evil, crazy and selfish.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
At this point it looks like you're splitting straws.
That may well be your opinion, but I don't think I am. There is an utterly fundamental difference between dealing with 'ill' people who might be capable of cure, and dealing with people who simply are who they are.
One of the dangers of labelling people born autistic or with cerebral palsy (which is emphatically not any kind of 'mental illness' whatsoever) or deaf or anything lifelong as 'ill' is that it then enables a mindset that the person 'will always be ill'.
And heck, no-one would want to live permanently 'sick', right? It would be a kindness to put such a person out of their 'misery', right?
Words like these matter, precisely because the straws I'm splitting set people on different paths of thinking. It's potentially the difference between seeing a person as having opportunities to lead a rich life within their abilities and seeing a person as having a problem that can only be solved by dying.
And part of this tragedy may stem from this distinction.
Mrs. Spourdalakis, the godmother, or both may have believed that Alex experienced a condition that was (A) preventable (that is, due to vaccinations) and/or (B) curable (the biomed stuff). Either belief alone could have generated intense rage and/or intense frustration, though not necessarily at Alex. Both together may be implicated in Alex's murder, though.
And that's exactly what makes Orfeo's "strawsplitting" so important, and why people who insist on spreading lies, bogus "science" and conspiracy theories (a la the Wakefield loon and the biomed women, and don't even get me started on "facilitated communication") are so dangerous.
Some years back, I had a relative diagnosed with MS. I recall the first 2-3 years afterward, her family was consumed with following bunkum diets and pursuing assorted useless "treatment" regimens. It's a terrible diagnosis, and of course we all want to try dodging the bullets bearing our names. But the false (and repeatedly crushed) hopes were sometimes nearly as debilitating as the MS itself.
Fortunately, they eventually came to their senses and began taking standard, best-practices, medical advice.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Fortunately, they eventually came to their senses and began taking standard, best-practices, medical advice.
But this can be problematic. Not all medical professionals are up to the task. The wrong medication and there is no return. It is a difficult position to be in, especially for those who are not equipped to do their own research.
However, none of this justifies the actions these women took.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's potentially the difference between seeing a person as having opportunities to lead a rich life within their abilities and seeing a person as having a problem that can only be solved by dying.
I'm not seeing the equivalence between "ill" and "might as well die."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's potentially the difference between seeing a person as having opportunities to lead a rich life within their abilities and seeing a person as having a problem that can only be solved by dying.
I'm not seeing the equivalence between "ill" and "might as well die."
Can't speak for orfeo, but for me, that's the wrong equivalence (though there are those who do regard severely disabled people as "throwaways").
When someone might be curable, carers generally make every possible effort to effect that cure and restore the person to a pre-illness state of health. When someone with an illness is deemed not curable, the nature of carers' efforts change. In incurable illness, we strive for palliative measures (think easing pain in a terminal cancer patient) and/or disease management (think lifestyle changes for the diabetic).
In disabling conditions which are by nature not curable (at least in our current knowledge), we strive to match or adapt existing functionality to specific daily living or occupational skills. One of my clients had a perseverative behavior of turning papers over. Occupational therapists were eventually able to train him to use this behavior to stuff ad inserts into a little freebie community publication. He loved this job, he earned a small income, and he ultimately became the publisher's longest-term and most reliable insert guy because the job was incredibly boring to most other people, and the hours (midnight-4 a.m. three nights a week) were not congenial for most workers.
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I think Orfeo's "ill" vs "disabled," is just another nitpick to justify telling me to shut-up because my points were irrelevant. First it was because my examples were about adults rather than children and then it was because I said "ill" instead of "disabled."
It's just semantics. There's a huge overlap in both medicine and government. Many people who are defined as "ill," by their doctors receive disability checks from the government.
It's amusing to me that Orfeo has taken such a hard line against this mother for losing her mind (or whatever happened) under the strain of 14 years caring for her difficult son when Orfeo himself is the most impatient person on earth. See TICTH thread. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
No, it's not "just" semantics. Pick a Paralympian - Ellie Simmonds, for example, current world record holder in the 400m freestyle. She could beat me easily in a swimming race - probably with both arms tied (actually my 9-year-old daughter can beat me, so this is not saying very much). Yet she is classed as disabled and I am not.
My grandfather, who lost one of his legs as a result of a mining accident, used to get very annoyed with people who referred to him as 'sick' when he was perfectly healthy and capable of looking after himself.
The words we choose to describe people DO affect how we think of them.
(I referred to him as 'Grandad', btw.)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Well I would hate to be called disabled if I was perfectly able to do anything I wanted even though I might have a chronic illness. It may matter a lot one way or another to each individual but we're never going to agree that one label promotes better care and understanding than another.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
It is not the label, but the perception.
And Twilight, why do you take such a hard line in defense?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is not the label, but the perception.
Right. That's why I don't mind people calling me 'faggot' as long as they mean it in a nice way.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
It's amusing to me that Orfeo has taken such a hard line against this mother for losing her mind (or whatever happened) under the strain of 14 years caring for her difficult son when Orfeo himself is the most impatient person on earth. See TICTH thread.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Ain't that the truth.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is not the label, but the perception.
Right. That's why I don't mind people calling me 'faggot' as long as they mean it in a nice way.
Nice way to miss the point. A bad label is bad, no matter who uses it. But a more positive label only works if the accompanying attitude is also changed. Otherwise gay merely becomes the new faggot.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Fair cop. Bad habit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's amusing to me that Twilight thinks I've taken such a 'hard line' against Twilight. I don't know, a few casual remarks on your iPhone while travelling and some people just go to pieces.
This is Hell, sweetie. When I take a hard line your innards will know about it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Twilight was here six years before you showed up. She knows about Hell, believe me.
Hope this helps,orfeo!
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Twilight was here six years before you showed up. She knows about Hell, believe me. That's why we still can't mention the voices.
And I know about Twilight.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's amusing to me that Twilight thinks I've taken such a 'hard line' against Twilight. I don't know, a few casual remarks on your iPhone while travelling and some people just go to pieces.
This is Hell, sweetie. When I take a hard line your innards will know about it.
I said you were taking a hard line against Alex's mother, not me. Have you been texting on your iPhone so much you've forgotten how to read whole sentences?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Hope this helps,orfeo!
Times two.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's amusing to me that Twilight thinks I've taken such a 'hard line' against Twilight. I don't know, a few casual remarks on your iPhone while travelling and some people just go to pieces.
This is Hell, sweetie. When I take a hard line your innards will know about it.
I said you were taking a hard line against Alex's mother, not me. Have you been texting on your iPhone so much you've forgotten how to read whole sentences?
Yes.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I can only speak for myself, here. With my... challenge, I guess, it was only after I quit thinking about it as an illness that I was able to get closer to a healthy mind-set and move on with my life.
Thing is, when everyone (especially one's self) always tells you you're "ill" or "sick" or even "disabled" it's really easy to go tits up and tell yourself you CAN'T. Can't do what you used to, can't take part in activities, can't run a mile, can't lift weights, can't do the same job you've done for years, can't join in any of the reindeer games.
So you nest up on the couch and indulge in the mother of all pity-parties. And everyone lets you, because, "aw, you poor thing. It's totally okay, you being ill and all.". And life will just pass you by unless you decide you're sick of being sick. (or if the right person sends you a PM saying essentially, "get on with it!" love you, Uncle Pete!)
So, I've got MS. I'm not sick. I'm actually disgustingly healthy. I'm not disabled, but I do have to do things differently than other folks. Mostly I have to know myself and my little quirks really well, so I don't piss off the Lion who dwells in my nervous system.
Names count. Attitudes go with the names. What is a better term? I dunno. I got quirks, yo. But I'm not sick.
[edited for pedantry. Edited hours later because I can.]
[ 19. June 2013, 00:00: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
It is not disabled people and our specific disabilities who are most in need of "change," though that is exactly where nearly all the effort and money goes.
It is the temporarily-abled people, and our primate-based urge to banish and punish and even murder those who fall outside some primitive instinct-based chimpanzee notion of what makes group survival as a species possible.
That is what we need to change.
You could even argue that rising above our evolutionary past would be good for us as a species, but "temporarily-abled" is a bullshit word, right up there with "check your privilege."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I was clutching at my pearls; sorry.
Would you prefer "those who operate under the mistaken delusion that they're somehow more 'able' than the so-called disabled?"
Many of us live into old, even extremely old,age, and we lose functionality we once had. AFAIK, just about everything is temporary.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Those of us who are disabled often refer to those who aren't (or think they aren't) as TABs. Good on you, Porridge.
Bullshit words are the words that others force us into.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Some people aren't more able than others? Tell that to my mother while she's getting my father to take his Parkinson's medication, managing their finances on her own, re-assuring him that there is not in fact a stranger in the next room, saying grace at meals when he can't speak, wiping away his drool (turned bright orange from one of those medications), orchestrating the down-sizing from their big house to an apartment without his help ...
The phrase "temporarily abled" is bullshit because it implies that we're all going to suffer the same inevitable fate, and the truth is that we won't. Yes, age takes away functionality, but it is far more cruel to some than to others. I hope to God that I will take after my mother, who has physically slowed down at 77 but is still sharp as ever, and after her mother, who died at home at 93 of being old.
"Temporarily abled" is also bullshit because it is a scare tactic. If you want people to make choices other than the ones handed down by their primate forebears, try appeals to reason and to morals.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
"Temporarily abled" is also bullshit because it is a scare tactic. If you want people to make choices other than the ones handed down by their primate forebears, try appeals to reason and to morals.
Those don't seem to have worked very well so far. What is it we ought to be doing differently? What kind of appeal could have kept Alex Spourdalakis alive?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
My honest, sad answer is nothing. It will always be thus, we do what we can, reach out within our scope; but there will always be those for whom no reason works.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Some people aren't more able than others?
What this 'Harrison Bergeron' argument fails to acknowledge, though, is that all of us have innate limitations to begin with (and often acquire more as we move through life), while others experience additional limitations imposed from without; that some of these limitations are deemed "par for the course" while others are not; that many of us manage to compensate for our limitations (while others of us can't, won't, or don't); and that some of these compensations are socially acceptable and others aren't.
I'm sorry to hear of your parents' struggles. And what's happening with them is at the heart of the tragedy which produced this thread: what do we owe to one another? Do we owe this because of our limitations? Despite them? Should our limitations enter into such discussions at all? Most of all, who owes whatever it is that is owed? Should your mother (and/or her children or other family), on whose devotion strangers like me impose, be left to manage these without assistance?
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The phrase "temporarily abled" is bullshit because it implies that we're all going to suffer the same inevitable fate, and the truth is that we won't.
Actually, we will: we all die.
The route that takes us there differs, and yes, these really do entail vastly different degrees of suffering, and that suffering may be as great or even greater for carers.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
"Temporarily abled" is also bullshit because it is a scare tactic. If you want people to make choices other than the ones handed down by their primate forebears, try appeals to reason and to morals.
You say to-may-to tactic. I call it realism.
The problem, it seems to me, is that people are not making choices at all. We are running scared, trying to duck the reality that confronts us all, by pretending it's some other guy's problem. And if appeals to reason worked, we'd already be handling this national disgrace differently.
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
And if appeals to reason worked, we'd already be handling this national disgrace differently.
Yes! More tax dollars! That's always the answer, isn't it? We need to all rise up and make the guv'mint spend more tax money on our own particular 'special interest'. I'll support you in your outrage (Is Outrage!) if you'll support me in mine. Ah well…except maybe if we didn't go looking for non-existent weapons of mass destruction and such all, perhaps there would be more money to go around.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Out of curiosity, how "special" is an interest that affects just about everybody?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
Who says it does? And even if it did there there's a huge list of things that 'affect just about everybody'. Personally I worry about neglected bridges falling into rivers. And whether social security will be there for me.
Remind me what you do for a living.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Out of curiosity, how "special" is an interest that affects just about everybody?
That's the thing - it doesn't. It affects those who have [a] condition and their loved ones/carers, but anyone who is in neither category is unaffected.
And no amount of "you'll be in that boat one day" scare tactics will change that.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Exactly. The problem is not that we all have the same problems and don't recognize it; neither is it that we will all sooner or later have the same problems and don't yet realize it. The problem is that as a people we have not learned to care about people whose problems we do not share. The folks variously advocating for more money for breast cancer research, AIDS treatment, education for autistic children, shelter for the homeless, etc etc ad infinitum are many of them only half a step ahead of those who don't care about anyone but themselves, because they care only about the problem that affects themselves or their family or their neighborhood.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
"Temporarily abled" is also bullshit because it is a scare tactic. If you want people to make choices other than the ones handed down by their primate forebears, try appeals to reason and to morals.
I've seen this term used a lot, but never as a scare tactic - more as a way to challenge the 'them and us' attitude that is so often prevalent. It can be quite effective. People's attitudes can be the most disabling thing of all. And people do change their attitudes despite something not affecting them personally - I've seen it happen. If someone is presented with a different frame of reference, it can make them think. After all, regardless of whether someone is affected personally by a disability, most people are going to encounter disabled people in their day-to-day life.
My only issue with the term 'temporarily able bodied' is it suggests that disability is purely to do with the body, and people easily forget that disability can also be of the mind.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The folks variously advocating for more money for breast cancer research, AIDS treatment, education for autistic children, shelter for the homeless, etc etc ad infinitum are many of them only half a step ahead of those who don't care about anyone but themselves, because they care only about the problem that affects themselves or their family or their neighborhood.
I don't see that as necessarily a problem. It's how empathy works - people empathise with what they have experienced in some way. And people realistically can't advocate every cause there is. We are limited - in time, money, and the number of things our brain can focus on. It makes sense for people to advocate the causes they have some kind of experience with - they will be a better advocate because they can talk about the examples they know and have real empathy and passion towards it.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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